Dark elves (3.5)

[Adamaro]

I was never a big fan of the drow, but must now familiarize with the race as a DM. Could you please post some usefull links regarding drow society and drow in general? (exceeding description in MM)

Whatever semi-usefull material that can be read regarding this topic on internet. (no books)

tnx

[hamishspence]

This source, while Realms-centric, goes into some detail:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Drow

And for a more Greyhawk-ish source:

http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Drow

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm pretty sure Drow of the Underdark has a bunch of information about the drow society.

[Zen Master]

The important thing to remember about the elves is that they are all dark - but only some of them have the skin to match.

[AslanCross]

The jungle-dwelling, scorpion worshiping drow in Eberron are rather different. (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Drow)

[Prime32]

The drow are an underground matriarchal society devoted to a spider godess who encourages them to backstab each other at every opportunity, pausing only to kill surface elves. Their clerics are always female (matriarchy!) and dress like dominatrices with a spider motif. Drow who fail to be sufficiently backstabby get turned into feral spider-centaurs.

I think that's about it.

[The J Pizzel]

The drow are an underground matriarchal society devoted to a spider godess who encourages them to backstab each other at every opportunity, pausing only to kill surface elves. Their clerics are always female (matriarchy!) and dress like dominatrices with a spider motif. Drow who fail to be sufficiently backstabby get turned into feral spider-centaurs.

I think that's about it.

Literally, the best summary of Drow Culture ever written. Listen to this man. Prime32 will be president one day.

Edit-just realized you're from Ireland and I have no idea what kind of political structure y'all have there. So, scratch that last line.

[Prime32]

{Scrubbed}

[Ethdred]

The drow are an underground matriarchal society devoted to a spider godess who encourages them to backstab each other at every opportunity, pausing only to kill surface elves. Their clerics are always female (matriarchy!) and dress like dominatrices with a spider motif. Drow who fail to be sufficiently backstabby get turned into feral spider-centaurs.

I think that's about it.

Bear in mind that, due to the excessive amount written about this race, there are always exceptions: drow can be good, they can worship other gods, they can even not be unfailingly untrustworthy. The one exception to this rule of there always being exceptions is that drow females will ALWAYS dress like dominatrices.

[Aroka]

Drow who fail to be sufficiently backstabby get turned into feral spider-centaurs.

This is, in fact, literally true, at least in Faerûn. Lolth tests drow of power (especially priestesses, but also arcane spellcasters and sufficiently impressive fighters, AFAIK, including males) by making someone close to them think she wants the test-taker dead. The test is being ruthless enough to be proactive and ruthless in disposing of someone close to you, and failure means you die or become a drider.

Well, that's one test, anyway; there's probably dozens of others.

[AslanCross]

Lolth also sometimes turns drow into Chwidenchas (spiders that are nothing but legs) and Shunned (Hideous sacs of flesh with drow faces and spider legs).

[Yora]

One odd thing about the drow is, that their society is completely chaotic, but they have lots of very strict rules and laws, and breaking them is punished very severely.
In practice this means "don't get cought". Assassnating your superiors is highly encouraged among the noble class. But when your plan fails and gets exposed, the victim can make it public and everyone else will try to kill you for it. Not so much for trying to kill someone, but because you've been to stupid to do it correctly, and you're a disgrace to your race.
In Menzoberanzan, in the forgotten realms, it is mostly the same thing for entire noble houses. It's okay to attack rival houses, but you have to make sure there are no survivors who can demand revenge for the murder of their family. But drow are pragmatic. Every time a house is destroyed by "unknown attackers", there will be other houses which suddenly have new "distant cousins" in their family, which have just arrived from a far away city.
Really, everything is allowed, but you have to be able to do it without anyone being able to publically expose it. Even when everyone knows who most probably did it.

[Prime32]

Bear in mind that, due to the excessive amount written about this race, there are always exceptions: drow can be good, they can worship other gods, they can even not be unfailingly untrustworthy. The one exception to this rule of there always being exceptions is that drow females will ALWAYS dress like dominatrices.I now want to play a game where drow have long since reintegrated into surface society, but their priestesses (despite now having a good-aligned dogma) still dress like that and carry ceremonial whips. Many feel embarassed about showing off that much skin, but it's tradition.

EDIT: I'll leave you with one thought on this new drow society:
Equal gender roles in the priesthood.

[hamishspence]

Dambrath is a nation of half-drow, where both drow and humans can integrate freely.

Still evil- but there, Lolth and Loviatar are both equally worshipped- and their clergy have an uneasy truce with each other.

[Psyx]

Cross off the 'CE' part of their alignment and replace with 'LE'. Only then does it make any kind of sense.

[hamishspence]

In early editions (where drow were CE rather than NE), there was an explanation of sorts for why they were unusually disciplined:

AD&D Dungeoneer's Survival Guide (by Douglas Niles)

page 67: Nature of the Underground Environment and its Denizens

section: Philosophy



Every underground culture has developed distinct philosophies. Each culture has several things in common with other races living under the surface, however.
...
Many of these races are chaotic in nature, but this alignment is reflected mainly in large-group organization and coordination. The individuals of each race, whether lawful or chaotic, tend to be very disciplined in their personal habits and social lives. No doubt the scarcity of many resources taken for granted on the surface- most notably air- has forced these creatures to adopt a more careful approach to life.
...
Waste, whether of food, material, or energy, is deplored and often punished severely. Again, the constraints of the environment can easily explain this value. Air is a valuable resource, and the control of its use, particularly regarding fires, is a common feature of underground law.
...
Creatures raised in the underground are usually very stubborn and resistant to change. The most conservative of the surface governments would seem to fluctuate radically and whimsically by comparison. Perhaps this narrow-mindedness arises also from the environment- with solid rock all around, the options available when a decision is required are often seriously limited.

[true_shinken]

Cross off the 'CE' part of their alignment and replace with 'LE'. Only then does it make any kind of sense.

They are neutral evil, not chaotic evil.

[Ilmryn]

Yes. Drow of the Underdark specifically states that they are neutral evil because they have both lawful and chaotic elements in their alignment. They are basically CE, but have a LE culture, so they are NE...

[hamishspence]

What's New with Phil & Dixie does sum up the common perception of the drow quite well. :smallamused:

http://www.airshipentertainment.com/growfcomic.php?date=20100321

[Talon Sky]

Bear in mind that, due to the excessive amount written about this race, there are always exceptions: drow can be good

Gah. Too many good drow spoils drow culture. Drizzt was a mutant, a purple-eyed mutant. Now everyone wants to play a redeemed, brooding drow warrior who dual-wields. Gah.

/rant

[Tiki Snakes]

My personal take on them was actually at least partially inspired by Assassin's Creed 2, actually. Which is to say renaissance italy filtered through that game and a very shoddy general understanding of the period otherwise.

The importance of your House, the feuding, murdering and political wheeling and dealing just seemed to fit, mentally.

The other element of my own personal take on Drow was the whole Lolth, encourage-chaos-and-backstabbery thing. In as much as, if taken entirely as written and usually understood, it just doesn't make enough sense for me.

I took the central idea that there was a reason behind it all, and ran with it. What possible benefit could be drawn from encouraging your people to muder each other, scheme and plot and generally run wild? Very little, if unchecked. But there is just as important the tenant of not-getting-caught, and definately not going so far as to cause great damage or weakness to the society itself.

In short, the religious doctrines that form the basis of the society are as they are, so as to encourage all Drow towards ruthless pragmatism, cunning and deadly quick-mindedness. Simply put, Drow culture exists in this form because Drow need to be that damn sharp to survive in such a hostile enviroment as the Underdark.

It also links to the idea of Lolth, before her fall, having been less of a flat villain-in-waiting and more of a morally dubious trickster goddess. Not unlike Anansi perhaps, especially with all that Spider symbolism.
Her plans and tricks eventually backfired when she went too far. Correllon's revenge, (transforming and banishing her) would have sent her ever so slightly mad (and bitter and hurting about the whole thing) but still with the essential core of her personality being ever so slightly more complex and her dealings with the Drow being, no matter in how unusual a manner, intended to help them survive and prosper.

It also helped make sense of the never-hurt-spiders thing, and other oddities. Spiders shouldn't be hurt in general because they are to be revered and emulated, rather than simply never hurt under any circumstances because they are somehow more important than Lolth's chosen people. Likewise, the strength of the anti-male sentiment makes more sense to me if it's partly because Drow women literally are stronger, smarter and more deadly on average but also quite simply Lolth is a little bit angry at them all because they remind her, however faintly, of Correllon.

Spoilered for length - A recounting of a character whose House and whose personality was created with the above in mind, (though the DM did not necessarily create the setting with any such thing in mind).

The character I played tied to this interpretation and with this in mind was a whole heap of fun. Basically aimed for a ruthlessly pragmatic Magnificent Bastard. He was all manner of capable of inflicting his will upon events because of it (Despite having been generated by the DM with atrocious stats) from sheer strength of purpose. He'd frequently refuse to sacrifice minions unnecessarily, was unfailingly polite when he was unsure of who he was dealing with, or when threatened, and managed to amongst other things hijack a Hobgoblin Uprising (turning the potential threat to the Drow rule in the region into an army with allegience to his own house, but to him first and foremost) and all but take over a partially lost city (Leaving the few surviving members of the native and ruling populace in place as a nervous figurehead whilst filling the city with those directly allied to his own house .

This was done partly by encouraging emigration of people in his House and their allied but unhoused servants to come to the region, and partly by installing a sibling on the vacated Matronly throne of an otherwise destroyed house native to the city. This would have left His own house by that point as potentially one of the more militarily powerful in the region, and as both the second and third major houses of the newly freed and rediscovered city.

The next step was going to be setting the Hobgoblin and Bugbear armies, alongside the forces of his own house and the newly saved ancient City against the neighboring correllon-worshipping heretic drow kingdom (yes, kingdom). At least long enough that we could have infiltrated the city, deposed the King and any potential opponants and set up either one of the other members of the party or a certain potentialy maleable Npc as a puppet ruler. All under the banner of liberating the City from an old and paranoid ruler, returning to the city some essential freedoms. Including the freedom to, oh, I don't know, worship Lolth.

And all of that as part of a longer term goal of fostering his take on Drow religion, (Araushnee-ism?) and generally fixing the Drow culture from within, promoting Magnificent Bastardry and Pragmatism throughout the land. Hopefully quickly enough that the culture would cease it's slow self destruction, avoid a slave-revolt at the hands of the far more numerous Hobgoblin warrior-slave-class, the attacks of the surface dwarves, Illithids and of course the threatened predations of Yariel, the 'First Lich'.

[nihilism]

i briefly read an explanation of the drow dominatrix slut thing (well of course we all know the real reason) showing a lot of skin is a massive sign of confidence and power in drow culture it displays that your secure enough to go around looking like a slut as oppose to dressing conservatively which shows a lack of confidence.

i thought it was ridiculous.

[Prodan]

What part of DnD lead you to believe that any part of the game could be taken seriously?

[true_shinken]

i briefly read an explanation of the drow dominatrix slut thing (well of course we all know the real reason) showing a lot of skin is a massive sign of confidence and power in drow culture it displays that your secure enough to go around looking like a slut as oppose to dressing conservatively which shows a lack of confidence.

i thought it was ridiculous.

Well, since you seem to live in a cold country, I think you don't see much of it, but this is exactly like society drives most young females to behave in hot climate areas. Go to a beach and you'll probably realize that.

[The Tygre]

What's New with Phil & Dixie does sum up the common perception of the drow quite well. :smallamused:

http://www.airshipentertainment.com/growfcomic.php?date=20100321

If only...


Gah. Too many good drow spoils drow culture. Drizzt was a mutant, a purple-eyed mutant. Now everyone wants to play a redeemed, brooding drow warrior who dual-wields. Gah.

/rant

Heh. I loved Pathfinder's take on if 'good' drow exist; just a little box of text that begins with 'They don't.' If a drow starts to turn good, they get killed. I presume that since any elf in PF can become a drow by turning full evil, any drow turns back into an elf if they become full good. I could just see some gnarled veteran DM, sitting half in the light, practically yelling this at the production staff, a d20 shaped scar where one of his eyes used to be and the name 'Salvatore' tattooed on to his knuckles.

[Xallace]

Gah. Too many good drow spoils drow culture. Drizzt was a mutant, a purple-eyed mutant. Now everyone wants to play a redeemed, brooding drow warrior who dual-wields. Gah.

/rant

I support neutral drow. Drow who live among the surfacers because they were tired of the constant assassination attempts, or because they've become arachnophobic or something. Not whole societies of them, of course, just a handful.

[Coidzor]

Lolth also sometimes turns drow into Chwidenchas (spiders that are nothing but legs) and Shunned (Hideous sacs of flesh with drow faces and spider legs).

Honestly, I think Lolth might just be dating a Tzimisce Fly.

[hamishspence]

Gah. Too many good drow spoils drow culture. Drizzt was a mutant, a purple-eyed mutant. Now everyone wants to play a redeemed, brooding drow warrior who dual-wields. Gah.

/rant

There are lots more interesting not-evil drow than Drizzt out there. Liriel Baenre, Phaerun Mizzrym, Tos'un Armgo, and so on.

Even in Greyhawk, there were not-evil drow.

[Morph Bark]

I now want to play a game where drow have long since reintegrated into surface society, but their priestesses (despite now having a good-aligned dogma) still dress like that and carry ceremonial whips. Many feel embarassed about showing off that much skin, but it's tradition.

EDIT: I'll leave you with one thought on this new drow society:
Equal gender roles in the priesthood.

That's just so cold, it's hot.

[Aroka]

i briefly read an explanation of the drow dominatrix slut thing (well of course we all know the real reason) showing a lot of skin is a massive sign of confidence and power in drow culture it displays that your secure enough to go around looking like a slut as oppose to dressing conservatively which shows a lack of confidence.

i thought it was ridiculous.

That's actually in Drow of the Underdark.

It's not like they can admit it's for the same reason that women in comics wear spandex and have giant tits: the writers, artists, and editors are a bunch of manchild teens who think (know?) most of their customers are the same way. I mean Ed Greenwood, anybody?

[Ravens_cry]

Lolth also sometimes turns drow into Chwidenchas (spiders that are nothing but legs) and Shunned (Hideous sacs of flesh with drow faces and spider legs).
Due to the power of internet weirdness, when I think Shunned, I think of Charlie the Unicorn.
SHUUNNN!

[Aroka]

Due to the power of internet weirdness, when I think Shunned, I think of Charlie the Unicorn.
SHUUNNN!

I think that's memetic mutation (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MemeticMutation).

[Alleran]

It's not like they can admit it's for the same reason that women in comics wear spandex and have giant tits: the writers, artists, and editors are a bunch of manchild teens who think (know?) most of their customers are the same way. I mean Ed Greenwood, anybody?
It's not like his characters don't at least have a reason for it. The Realms has a much more liberal view on sex than our world, partly because he's mentioned that pregnancy, as well as diseases, are all quite manageable via magic. Since we usually hear about the Seven (who are all extremely powerful spellcasters, not to mention immune to disease and unable to be knocked up unless Mystra says so) or royalty (Alusair... who Word Of God has attended Cormyrean revels dressed in nothing but full body paint, though she's a bit of a rebel anyway - her sister Tanalasta is much more "prim and proper") who have access to people to cast the spells for them, or nobility in general (who also have access to wizards/clerics/whatever). It's not quite Tippyverse, but it does have some elements of it. Though it's more an in-universe explanation. Out of universe, we know that it's because "sex sells" in two short words.

It shows up in other stuff, too - seen Catti-Brie, Alustriel or Dove in the Drizzt comics that were adapted from Salvatore's work? Observe Dove's clothing. (http://www.comicvine.com/forgotten-realms-sojourn-issue-2/37-109237/) And the Drow priestesses are much worse.

[Ravens_cry]

I think that's memetic mutation (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MemeticMutation).
Charlie the Unicorn is still a very strange place.

[Psyx]

They are neutral evil, not chaotic evil.

Well at least WotC are moving them slightly in the right direction.

Drow are -by everything described about them- LE. Their society is a shining example of LE, too. The irony of them is that they are a LE people serving a CE deity. I think that's a really interesting facet, and a good reason why they are so royally screwed!

[Yora]

I think while their society has lots of laws, individual drow are anything but lawful. For the powerful, the laws are used to screw everyone else over and have a good laugh, and for everyone else the laws are mostly there to be broken. They are erratic and impulsive and don't have any respect for formalized hierarchies. Hierarchy only means that some people can do what they want to others, without the victims having the power to stop or avenge it. They only follow rules when disobeying means death, but completely ignore them, when they think they can pull it off. That'n not lawful in any way.
I think their society is pretty much like that of orcs or ogres, with a couple of abritary and random rules thrown in, that nobody is expected to really follow.

[Aroka]

I think while their society has lots of laws, individual drow are anything but lawful. For the powerful, the laws are used to screw everyone else over and have a good laugh, and for everyone else the laws are mostly there to be broken. They are erratic and impulsive and don't have any respect for formalized hierarchies.

Yeah, drow society is all about "might is right", which seems very Chaotic Evil to me; if you can get away with something, it's okay to do it. Lawful Evil implies some kind of dedication to or respect for the actual society, placing the group above the individual, but drow aren't really capable of that. Your typical drow would rather let every other drow die if she could live.

One of the best examples is illegal wars - in Menzoberranzan, it is illegal to attack another House, and the punishment is destruction of the offending House. That's the law. However, Houses attack each other constantly - and get away with it, because only a noble of the House that was attacked can bring the case before the authorities, and if you kill all the nobles of the other House (or, I suppose, successfully "adopt" survivors), everyone else just shrugs and approves; you were strong enough to get away with it, so it's okay.

Lawful doesn't mean orderly, or having laws, or having traditions; Chaotic is perfectly capable of laws, traditions, and order (regular elves are Chaotic, and have all three of those). Lawful means group before individual, and Chaotic means individual before group. (The moral alignment - good and evil - has a huge bearing on how these ideas are manifested in practice.) Drow are clearly the second - the one advances herself at the expense of the many. An Evil individualist is a sort of "social darwinist," while a Good individualist works for the benefit of other individuals, often through a society founded on the idea of individual freedom and worth.

A Lawful Evil society would probably be much more successful, and fairly fanatical; you'd see soldiers willing to give their lives for their principles or companions, a principled society that excuses its evil with justifications way beyond "might is right." Drow usually don't even worship Lolth out of genuine faith, but out of self-interest and fear - both of the deity and of the rest of the priesthood. If you falter in your faith, you lose your power and you probably end up dead or drider.

Of course, the alignment system being as vague as it is, you can spin drow as LE or NE without any real changes.

[AslanCross]

Due to the power of internet weirdness, when I think Shunned, I think of Charlie the Unicorn.
SHUUNNN!

Needs more magical liopleurodon.

[lightningcat]

There are several third party books on drow, some better then others, that expend on their culture and give less singular concentration on Lloth.


i briefly read an explanation of the drow dominatrix slut thing (well of course we all know the real reason) showing a lot of skin is a massive sign of confidence and power in drow culture it displays that your secure enough to go around looking like a slut as oppose to dressing conservatively which shows a lack of confidence.

i thought it was ridiculous.

Toss in the whole lack of weather, and clothing's only practical purposes are modesty, and to hold items or enchantments. So that theory does hold some weight, as it were.

[Zaq]

Drow make me laugh. Seriously. The elf fluff in D&D is hilariously awful, and the drow fluff is just the elf fluff only evilevilevilevilevilspiiiiidersevilevilmatriarchye vilevilplotsevilpoisonevil. It's so resoundingly dumb that it makes me laugh every time I think about it. (Which they have been scheming about since before I was born, you know! With their plots! Their plots!)

Once, I forced myself to read through the (hilarious yet painful) fluff chapters in Drow of the Underdark. At the end of it, there was a whole section devoted to saying, basically, "we realize that what we've been saying for the past chapter makes no goddamn sense at all, so if you're curious about how this works... it's because Lolth said so. Yes, we just pulled a damn near literal deus ex machina. Spiders!" This really told me all I needed to know about the drow.

D&D isn't meant to be taken seriously, and that goes about five times over for the drow. Man they're hilarious.

[Mr.Moron]

Drow can be summed up pretty easily:

"Hey, let's put a bunch of women in charge of something! Ha-ha silly females, they ruin everything by being petty and scheming. Hey! I got another great idea, lets give them skimpy clothes and high heels but it'll be totally different and not the same as the other times we've done that because it'll be BLACK because they're EVIL! Also, spiders."

[The Tygre]

Drow can be summed up pretty easily:

"Hey, let's put a bunch of women in charge of something! Ha-ha silly females, they ruin everything by being petty and scheming. Hey! I got another great idea, lets give them skimpy clothes and high heels but it'll be totally different and not the same as the other times we've done that because it'll be BLACK because they're EVIL! Also, spiders."

That's the starting point. Build on it, son.

[Grommen]

Bear in mind that the Drow of Menbarozin (ya I'm aware I slaughtered that name) are zealots too. Not all Drow act in same manor. They also vary from world to world.

I like the Pathfinder Drow. Their evil because they are hacked off cause they didn't leave town when their elf buddies did. They got stuck their for the Cataclysm and had to head underground to survive. Wile down their they ran into a bunch of evil demons who gave them a home, food, and helped them survive, thus they reflect their benefactors and have become evil and chaotic. It's run by women because a lot of the men died trying to save the race that got left behind. The got their skin turned black because the Demon Lords decided it was a good idea. They speak Elven, be it most likely a sub version that has changed a bit over the years. They shape stone like elves shape wood. And I like the fact that if you show compassion (IE goodness) as a Drow on Gloran they kill you, and look inside you to find out what went wrong. It is a burning hatred that keeps them fueled up and willing to kill their pail skin surface brothers.

After all they got left behind. Left for dead, and forgotten.

High Fantasy (where the drow fit in best) is all about Good vs Evil. Players are the good guys and drow are one of the evil ones. They don't blur that line, it' all evil....all the time. Realistic. Hell no! But for the love of the gods they live 5 miles under the earth in a big cave. Ever wonder why they don't wear much? It's hot down their man. Really stinken hot.

Na I'm kidden, it's cause men like seeing women in chainmail bikinis :smallbiggrin:.

[Fallbot]

i briefly read an explanation of the drow dominatrix slut thing (well of course we all know the real reason) showing a lot of skin is a massive sign of confidence and power in drow culture it displays that your secure enough to go around looking like a slut as oppose to dressing conservatively which shows a lack of confidence.

i thought it was ridiculous.

I think I actually physically facepalmed the first time I heard this. Even putting all the other unfortunate implications aside, this is just... :smallsigh:. Words fail me.

[Starshade]

One suggestion I can come to think of, is to avoid Menzoberanzan and introduce some different drow city if its Forgotten Realms.

If its not FR, fine, then there is untold new storylines possible, and avoiding the basic Drizzt Do'urden storylines.

Some FR based ideas i can think of:
- An male dominated city, where the god of intelligent slimes and jellies, Ghaunadaur, rules. Fill it up with absurdities as regular Ooze wrestling (two combatants wrestle, in a ooze covered arena protected by priestly prayers. If their deity gets boored, they is eaten by the ooze and slime in the arena) :smallbiggrin:

- Wizard dominated city. This one is a bit like a male version of the matriarchy drow city concept, just cabals, and wizardly schools who compete of power, and plots each other's destruction covertly.

- two deities. Lolth and Kiaransalee or Selvetarm is equally worshipped. Since the gods are sort of allied and isnt strong enough in this city to openly kill each other, they are to the public friends, and out of public, deadly rivals. (the drow pantheon is quite small, and even "friendly" evil gods probably would finish off the other gods and take their portfolios and powers).

Non FR:
- Beholder slaves. Put an good old hive mother beholder in charge, and the drow as cannon fodder for the crazy, floating monsters.

- Nomadic tribes in the underdark. Roaming hunters, basically imagine evil, cruel hunting tribes living a bit like a band of native americans hunting, vandering after their underdark prey, and occationally hunting in the night on the surface.

- Rule by liches. All mages and priests are more or less just doing anything they can to be found worthy to join their ranks of superpowered dead magic users ruling this city.

etc. Find some concept who fits the story you need, and invent the twist of actually the drow your players find. Or if you need,some good backgrounds usably by your player's for their characters , and avoid the hordes of drazzol, druzzit, drozzt and drazzat's out there. :smallsmile:
Hm, id allow Menzoberanzan drow players, shure. It's just so many good ideas possible outside the stereotypes too. :smallsmile:

[Psyx]

One of the best examples is illegal wars - in Menzoberranzan, it is illegal to attack another House, and the punishment is destruction of the offending House. That's the law. However, Houses attack each other constantly - and get away with it, because only a noble of the House that was attacked can bring the case before the authorities, and if you kill all the nobles of the other House (or, I suppose, successfully "adopt" survivors), everyone else just shrugs and approves; you were strong enough to get away with it, so it's okay.



But that's amazingly Lawful behaviour. There is an established way of doing it, and you're punished if you break that procedure. Drow have a very ordered hierarchical society, where everyone knows their place. Orcs are chaotic evil. Drow aren't.

[Yora]

But you don't do it because you respect the tradition. It is done because not doing so gives all your enemies an excuse to have you destroyed. It's just the most practical way to get around that threat, so it's the one used most often.

[Prime32]

But that's amazingly Lawful behaviour. There is an established way of doing it, and you're punished if you break that procedure. Drow have a very ordered hierarchical society, where everyone knows their place. Orcs are chaotic evil. Drow aren't.Drow aren't supposed to be chaotic evil. :smallconfused: They're neutral evil.

[hamishspence]

- two deities. Lolth and Kiaransalee or Selvetarm is equally worshipped. Since the gods are sort of allied and isnt strong enough in this city to openly kill each other, they are to the public friends, and out of public, deadly rivals. (the drow pantheon is quite small, and even "friendly" evil gods probably would finish off the other gods and take their portfolios and powers).


Dambrath is basically this- only it's more a half-drow nation with quite a few drow in it. In this case, it's not a drow deity that Lolth has to share the populace with, but Loviatar.

[Aroka]

But that's amazingly Lawful behaviour. There is an established way of doing it, and you're punished if you break that procedure. Drow have a very ordered hierarchical society, where everyone knows their place. Orcs are chaotic evil. Drow aren't.

Just like Yora says...


But you don't do it because you respect the tradition. It is done because not doing so gives all your enemies an excuse to have you destroyed. It's just the most practical way to get around that threat, so it's the one used most often.

It's still "might makes right."

Chaotic Evil orcs are going to have traditions and customs they adhere to, too. That's now Lawful. That's culture.

Also, my entire point about individual vs. group, which is IMO the main aspect of Chaos vs. Law alignments. Drow are really hardcore selfish individualists, generally, who have to be bribed, coerced, and forced into working for the larger group.


Drow aren't supposed to be chaotic evil. :smallconfused: They're neutral evil.

Bit of an edition dissonance, I guess. They were CE in AD&D (cf. MM 2nd ed. revised, "Elf, Drow"), and their fluff has remained the same. And they worship a Chaotic Evil deity around who they've built their society (except when they haven't, usually as an intentional departure from said deity).

[elonin]

Neutral evil is a better description of this race's tenancies. The priestesses of Lloth have a stranglehold and no customs change without their consent. Doesn't strike me as chaotic to me exactly. If you take someone who is power hungry and paranoid (cause everyone is looking to stab you in the back). There was a comparison in the Adnd drow of the underdark book in which compares the drow and dwarves in building. The dwarves would take the time to make a structure that lasts for eons while drow would make a lithe structure with thin supports and held up by magic. Then of course kill the builder when it fails.

Good drow would tend to get killed at birth, like any other defective child (in their eyes). At least those in noble houses.