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LOTRfan
2010-07-29, 07:52 PM
Moria Goblin, 1st Level Warrior
Small Humanoid (Orc)
Hit Dice: 1d8+2 (6 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), Climb 20 ft.
Armor Class: 13 (+2 leather armor, +1 size), touch 11, flat footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-2
Attack: Short sword +2 melee (1d4+1 damage), or shortbow +1 ranged (1d4 damage)
Full Attack: Short sword +2 melee (1d4+1 damage), or shortbow +1 ranged (1d4 damage)
Space/Reach: 5ft./5ft.
Special Attacks: Battle-shriek
Special Qualities: Resistance to Poison, Light Blindness
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +2, Will -1
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 9, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +2, Move Silently +2, Climb +12, Craft (Siegecraft) +4
Feats: Lightning Reflexes
Environment: The Mines of Moria
Organization: Solitary, swarm (5-20), troop (15-35 plus 1-4 Cave Trolls plus 1 3rd level leader for every 10 goblins), or tribe (100-850 plus 5-10 cave trolls plus 1 3rd level leader for every 10 goblins plus 1 8th level leader for every 200 goblins plus 1 14th level chieftain)
Challenge Rating: ½
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Often Lawful evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +0

Light Blindness (Ex): Sudden exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds Moria for 1 round. In addition, they take a –1 circumstance penalty on attack rolls, saves, and checks when in bright light (as though dazzled). In addition, for every hour left in the sun, a Moria Goblin must make a fort save (DC 10 + number of hours in sunlight), or suffer 1d6 nonlethal points of damage. This damage does not heal until the Moria Goblin is in complete darkness, and even then, the damage heals by one point per hour.

Battle-Screech (Ex): Once per day as a standard action, a Moria Goblin can emit a horrible shriek as a 15-foot-radius burst centered on itself. Any creature in the affected area gets a -1 morale penalty to attacks and skill checks. A successful Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 the Moria Goblin’s character level + the Moria Goblin’s Con modifier) prevents the morale penalty. A barbarian can use it’s shriek when raging.
The shriek’s penalty increases by 1 at 3rd level and every three levels thereafter (-3 at 6th, -4 at 9th, and so on), up to a maximum of a -5 penalty at 12th level.

Resistance to Poison: Orcs are infamous for their use of poisoned arrows, and the Goblins of Moria are no exception. Unlike others of their kind, the Moria Goblins regularly war with each other over the scarce territory. As a result, after centuries of poisoning each other, they have adapted to poisons of many kinds and get a +2 bonus to all Fortitude saves to prevent the effects of poison.

Skills: Due to their longer arms and ape-like build, Goblins of Moria have a +4 racial bonus on Climb checks. All Orcs (creatures with the Orc subtype) have a +5 bonus to Craft (Siegecraft) checks.

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History
The Orcs of the Misty Mountains are a nasty breed indeed. Among the worst are the Goblins of Moria, small but cruel Orcs that inhabit the old Dwarven kingdom of Khazad-Dûm. Long have they lived under the earth, like a stain beneath the Misty Mountains since the first age of the world ended. They lived in Mount Gundaband for a time, before conquering the Dwarven city after its original inhabitants were killed by a powerful demon of smoke and fire. Khazad-Dûm was forever known afterwards as Moria, or “Black Chasm” in the tongue of the Wood-elves.

They inhabited the Mines of Moria for many years, and slowly corrupted and twisted it. They maintained Moria through several conflicts, including the War of the Dwarves and Orcs (in which their leader, Azog, fell), and the Battle of Five Armies (which resulted in the death of Bolg, son of Azog, and the routing of many Orc-holdouts by the Beornings afterwards).

Campaign Notes (War of the Ring)
Now, the Goblins of Moria are amassing in power once more. They are multiplying and attacking in numbers that have not been seen since their assault on Erebor. Under the leadership of a new king, they are allying themselves with several other natives of the Misty Mountains. Currently, they are attempting to ally with Dol Guldur, while emissaries of the White-Hand arrive from the south to sway them to Isengard’s will. Regardless of who they ally with, the combined forces of both factions will be able to gain unrivalled dominance in the land west of the Misty Mountains, Eriador.

Descriptions:
The orcs of Middle-Earth have a variety of appearances. These are three samples of how different members of this race can look:

A small, pale green orc with a bat-like face charges, sword drawn. It shouts out orders to its inferiors, with a bloodlust in his eye.

A small goblin with black skin and red eyes appears out of the dark tunnel ahead. Running swiftly, it heads towards you, gnashing its teeth.

A squat, swarthy bug eyed goblin can be seen climbing on the wall. It draws its sword, and drops itself onto one of your companions, shrieking all the way down.

*For those who aren't familiar with Tolkien's works, the word Goblin is interchangeable with Orc.

Jjeinn-tae
2010-07-29, 08:15 PM
It's been a while since I've read the books so I'm not fully knowledgeable of the terminology, but from what I remember, Goblin was only used to refer to the old breeds of orcs, right (so no Uruk-Hai, or the new ones at the end of Return of the King were called goblins I'm thinking). All the old ones were more or less the same in build I'm thinking, so the ones living in the caves from The Hobbit, were more or less similar to the Morian Goblins right?

Ok, after a long stream of questions, I'm not sure if I have much to contribute, but I can think of two things. The goblins in The Hobbit seemed to have a bit of an engineering knack if I remember right, if they are indeed the same kind of orc, than you might want to consider giving them a bonus in that knowledge. Though that seems to be rather universal for orcs, and we see the Uruk-Hai in Helms Deep know pretty well where the structural week points of the fortress are.

The other thing that strikes me is the Light Sensitivity. It seems a little minor compared to what was alluded to in the LoTR trilogy, I always thought the lesser orcs were horribly debilitated in the bright sunlight. Even the Uruk-Hai, who supposedly were built to overcome that limitation seemed to not like sunlight much at all, they might have the level of sensitivity you have there.

And then again, I haven't read in a while, so I might be inaccurate here, but those were the two points that came to mind.

LOTRfan
2010-07-29, 08:27 PM
It's been a while since I've read the books so I'm not fully knowledgeable of the terminology, but from what I remember, Goblin was only used to refer to the old breeds of orcs, right (so no Uruk-Hai, or the new ones at the end of Return of the King were called goblins I'm thinking).

Well, actually, in the Two Towers, Uruk-hai are referred to as sallow skinned, squint eyed goblin warriors. If I remember correctly, Goblin is Hobbit-speech for Orc.


All the old ones were more or less the same in build I'm thinking, so the ones living in the caves from The Hobbit, were more or less similar to the Morian Goblins right?

Yes, this is supposed to represent all the Orcs of the Misty Mountains, not just those of Moria.


Ok, after a long stream of questions, I'm not sure if I have much to contribute, but I can think of two things. The goblins in The Hobbit seemed to have a bit of an engineering knack if I remember right, if they are indeed the same kind of orc, than you might want to consider giving them a bonus in that knowledge. Though that seems to be rather universal for orcs, and we see the Uruk-Hai in Helms Deep know pretty well where the structural week points of the fortress are.

Alright, I'll add a racial bonus to either Craft (Trapmaking) or Craft (Siegecraft).


The other thing that strikes me is the Light Sensitivity. It seems a little minor compared to what was alluded to in the LoTR trilogy, I always thought the lesser orcs were horribly debilitated in the bright sunlight. Even the Uruk-Hai, who supposedly were built to overcome that limitation seemed to not like sunlight much at all, they might have the level of sensitivity you have there.

Yeah, I got lazy and used the actual Vril special quality. What do you suggest I use instead?

Jjeinn-tae
2010-07-29, 08:34 PM
Hmm, that really is the question then, We know their light sensitivity isn't remotely to the severity of the Trolls, but it was still horribly crippling... Does it actually tell us how severe it is though? Probably in The Silmarillion if nowhere else.

How I would handle it is the base light sensitivity penalty with a few additions, what I'm thinking is making it so they don't threaten an area, and maybe shift the initial blindness up to a daze that literally locks them in place for a turn. Though, it might be that they were just terrified of the light, maybe it should just hit them with a fear effect of some sort?

LOTRfan
2010-07-29, 08:40 PM
... Well, to my knowledge, the only time the Orcs are seen in broad daylight are in the Two Towers. They complain a lot and become winded, but we don't get to see what happens to them naturally, because the Uruk-hai force them to move and ignore any problems they are having.

In the Silmarillion, the Orcs are either attacking in the ages before the sun, or protected by Morgoth's shadow.

In the Return of the King, they are protected under Sauron's shadow...

If only we got to see them react naturally during the book series, that would have been helpful.

Perhaps nonlethal damage could work?

Jjeinn-tae
2010-07-29, 08:55 PM
Ooh, that would work well, I'd forgotten that there were Orcs with the Uruk-Hai, but they seem to support that.

LOTRfan
2010-07-29, 09:04 PM
Alright, I made the change. Is 1d4 points of nonlethal damage enough, in your opinion?

Jjeinn-tae
2010-07-29, 09:07 PM
Probably, They managed to run for a good while without stopping, not counting subdual damage from forced marching, that gives them a bit when they have some levels. If you're thinking of having it occur several times while their exposed to light, it should probably be closer to the hour than the round.

LOTRfan
2010-07-29, 09:18 PM
Yeah, I assumed the Orcs in the group would be low to mid level (5-9). I thought by the hour would be best, and the Orcs nearly collapsed of exhaustion by night, so I included darkness as required to heal the nonlethal damage.

Jjeinn-tae
2010-07-29, 09:22 PM
Looks good to me, the only thing now is that light blindness has copy past syndrome at the first part, It still refers to them as Vril in the first sentence.

devinkowalczyk
2010-07-29, 10:33 PM
Just my two cents on the build...

+4 is a very large bonus against poisons
even dwarves only have +2

Harperfan7
2010-07-30, 12:42 AM
There's no way they had 15 str, and they had to have had a climb speed.

Andion Isurand
2010-07-30, 01:57 AM
Yeah, I second that Moria Goblins should have a climb speed.

sigurd
2010-07-30, 04:15 AM
The goblins are creatures of the darkness. They should have a fair variation in abilities and strengths - some might have a 15 str.


I think the +4 vs poisons is justified by how they live and apparently thrive. They live in a gangly mass often right on top of each other. I'd give them the same save vs disease. Survival of the fittest before survival of the brightest.


I think I remember seeing a white dwarf #53 that had 3 variations of tolkien orcs for D&D (Soldier, Snaga, Uruk). I think a similar approach would make sense. A climber, a runner, and a bruiser would be my guess. The runners might be the best at archery.


S

hamishspence
2010-07-30, 05:15 AM
Well, actually, in the Two Towers, Uruk-hai are referred to as sallow skinned, squint eyed goblin warriors. If I remember correctly, Goblin is Hobbit-speech for Orc.

I think there were also references in the LoTR appendicies, or A History of Middle Earth, to some of the goblin leaders possibly being Uruk-hai sent out by Sauron to rally the goblins. Azog, killer of Thror, later slain by Dain Ironfoot, and Bolg, son of Azog, who led the goblins at the Battle of Five Armies, in The Hobbit.

Aragorn also fights a very large Orc in Moria- almost man-high. This may be another example (the movie replaced that scene with the cave-troll scene.)

LOTRfan
2010-07-30, 07:07 AM
Just my two cents on the build...

+4 is a very large bonus against poisons
even dwarves only have +2


I think the +4 vs poisons is justified by how they live and apparently thrive. They live in a gangly mass often right on top of each other. I'd give them the same save vs disease. Survival of the fittest before survival of the brightest.

Yes, I wanted a survival to the fittest feel here. In addition, this isn't really supposed to be a PC race, so I thought I could make it slightly more powerful then the average dwarf.


There's no way they had 15 str

If I remember correctly, the goblins seem to be fairly efficient fighters in The Fellowship of the Ring. They even out last the cave troll (who doesn't even actually come into the room, he flees when his foot is stabbed by Frodo), a one successfully wounds Sam in the head. I guess it can be ruled that Sam had no real combat levels, but I still wanted to have the intimidating feel.


Yeah, I second that Moria Goblins should have a climb speed.

Do you think 20 ft. is okay, or should they be able to climb as fast as they walk?


I think I remember seeing a white dwarf #53 that had 3 variations of tolkien orcs for D&D (Soldier, Snaga, Uruk). I think a similar approach would make sense. A climber, a runner, and a bruiser would be my guess. The runners might be the best at archery.

Oh, that's pretty cool. Going to have to look up those stats (though, for archers, I might later make the Snuffler Orc from Return of the King).

Eldan
2010-07-30, 07:09 AM
Yes, but 15 strength means that they are on the level of a normal D&D ork, and far above the half-ork. Just look at how bulky those are: gobbos are far from that, even if they are tough fighters.

LOTRfan
2010-07-30, 07:17 AM
Aragorn also fights a very large Orc in Moria- almost man-high. This may be another example (the movie replaced that scene with the cave-troll scene.)

Yes, this actually concerned me when I made the Moria Goblin small instead of Medium. Good to know that this Orc was just an anomaly, an Uruk-hai.


Yes, but 15 strength means that they are on the level of a normal D&D ork, and far above the half-ork. Just look at how bulky those are: gobbos are far from that, even if they are tough fighters.

Oh, didn't bother looking at the Orc stats when I made that. I want these guys to be able to hold their own against larger Orcs (especially in larger numbers), but not that strong. I'll go back to +2 Con -2 Int -2 Cha, but does that make this too similar to the Vril?

hamishspence
2010-07-30, 07:26 AM
Saruman's Uruk-hai may be slightly tougher and more light-resistant than Sauron's. Though I think Sauron did have pretty light-resistant ones- it's mentioned that several centuries before LoTR, he was using them, before people knew that it was Sauron that had returned.

Saruman's half-orcs should probably be different than Uruk-hai- they're more like Men with Orc-ish faces, whereas the Uruk-hai are still somewhat squat.

These may be the "sallow, squint eyed" soldiers referenced. Uruk-hai are usually described differently. And Aragorn says "We had many of these half-orcs to deal with at Helm's Deep" immediately after Merry & Pippin mention them.

And Misty Mountain Goblins should probably be a category to themselves- separate from standard "slave orcs" of Mordor.

LOTRfan
2010-07-30, 07:41 AM
Saruman's Uruk-hai may be slightly tougher and more light-resistant than Sauron's. Though I think Sauron did have pretty light-resistant ones- it's mentioned that several centuries before LoTR, he was using them, before people knew that it was Sauron that had returned.

Yes, I am going to have the two subraces of Uruk-hai with different (but similar) stats.


Saruman's half-orcs should probably be different than Uruk-hai- they're more like Men with Orc-ish faces, whereas the Uruk-hai are still somewhat squat.

I wasn't sure if Half-Orcs would be refluffed Half-Orcs from the Players Handbook, creatures using the Human statistics but with the Orc subtype, or a mechanically different creature.


And Misty Mountain Goblins should probably be a category to themselves- separate from standard "slave orcs" of Mordor.

Definitely, the Goblins of Moria seemed to be equal to the Orcs of Mordor when the three groups of Orcs were working together in The Two Towers. I was debating whether or not Snagas should actually have statistics, or be reserved as a role-play nickname the larger Orcs give all smaller Orcs.

hamishspence
2010-07-30, 07:44 AM
Probably use it for "generic orcs"- keep it as a nickname, but allow standard orcs to use those stats.

Maybe Misty Mountain orcs (goblins) get a bonus to climb checks?

LOTRfan
2010-07-30, 07:47 AM
Well, currently they have a +4 bonus (in addition to the +8 bonus that all creatures with climb speeds get to climb checks). Is that too powerful?

EDIT: Oh, forgot to add that to the statblock.

hamishspence
2010-07-30, 08:00 AM
Depends on if ordinary orcs are given the ability to climb (and Misty Mountain orcs get a bonus to it) or not.

GW's LoTR game has slightly different stats for each type, and there are a lot of types.

Mordor Orcs
Morannon Orcs
Tracker Orcs

Moria Goblins

Mordor Uruk-hai
Isengard Uruk-hai

LOTRfan
2010-07-30, 09:13 AM
Depends on if ordinary orcs are given the ability to climb (and Misty Mountain orcs get a bonus to it) or not.

GW's LoTR game has slightly different stats for each type, and there are a lot of types.

Mordor Orcs
Morannon Orcs
Tracker Orcs

Moria Goblins

Mordor Uruk-hai
Isengard Uruk-hai

Well, I don't remember the other Orcs climbing walls or anything (certainly not the Uruk-hai). I mean, otherwise the Battle of Hornburg and the Siege of Minas Tirith would have ended a lot sooner, wouldn't it have?


Anyway, I can't find the GW stats right now, but I was actually planning on making my own version of all of these (except for the Mordor Orc, which I thought would use the SRD stats with minor difference to light sensitivity).

hamishspence
2010-07-30, 09:19 AM
Since the rules were much simply than in D&D (since it's an army-based game) the differences tend to be small.

In practice, Goblins being slightly weaker (but better at climbing) Orcs, could probably work.

Hmm- should all non-Uruk orcs be Small?

LOTRfan
2010-07-30, 10:30 AM
No, some non Uruk-hai will be medium. There tends to be a lot of variety in orcs. Just to list a few examples:

In the Hobbit, there are goblins the size of the dwarves (medium by D&D rules), and larger Hobgoblins (Uruk-hai?)

In the Lord of the Rings Trilogy, though, Sam and Frodo were able to disguise themselves as Orcs, despite being a size category smaller then humans (at the same time, many Orcs are described as being only slightly smaller then men). There does not seem to be a lot of uniformity.

So, I plan on using both small and medium sizes for Orcs (just sort of artistic license, if that is the correct term). Common D&D players think of Goblins as small, and lore supports that there was a few small Orcs, so I made them small.

hamishspence
2010-07-30, 10:32 AM
Makes sense- if orcs can come in Medium and Small (whereas Goblins just come in Small) this does allow for overlap.

n00b killa
2010-07-30, 10:33 AM
Don't leather armors give +2 AC (intead of the +1 you wrote)?

LOTRfan
2010-07-30, 10:35 AM
Don't leather armors give +2 AC (intead of the +1 you wrote)?

Yes, an editing mistake (I had them wearing different armor at first).

n00b killa
2010-07-30, 11:42 AM
You forgot to update the total AC, wich should be 13 (+2 AC, +1 Size).

Nice stats for the critter, BTW, that's pretty much how I pictured them

sigurd
2010-07-30, 12:09 PM
I don't think you can get around or change the goblin\orc distinction. If this is ever used, too many people will expect a smaller goblin and a larger orc. While I think you're right that the distinction is possibly not genuine to middle earth it would be more useful to throw the net a little wider an call them 'goblinoids'.

Dirt Goblin, Goblin, Archery Goblin, Leader Goblin. (small to large - Or some such)
Snagga, Orc, Uruk (Perhaps make Uruk-Hai a subrace).


I think there is a basis for the distinction in tolkien with the legend of the corruption of the elves to make orcs. I think Goblins exist before Orcs. If the races were engineered then it is logical to assume they have variations. Even if the variations aren't entirely genetic the tyrannic ranking order among the armies would enforce or create it.


Sigurd

All of this is very useful in many games.

LOTRfan
2010-07-30, 01:12 PM
You forgot to update the total AC, wich should be 13 (+2 AC, +1 Size).

Nice stats for the critter, BTW, that's pretty much how I pictured them

D'oh! I'll get on that right now.

And thanks for the compliment, but all I really did was modify the Vril with minor adjustments/mechanic changes and refluffed.

hamishspence
2010-08-01, 03:12 PM
If average orcs/goblins are Small, and only elite ones Medium, then the Wargs (smart, evil wolves) can be Medium, thus allowing goblins to ride on them, and yet they still fit with being basically smart wolves, rather than massive monsters.

LOTRfan
2010-08-01, 04:03 PM
Exactly. I was just going to use the Worg statistics from the SRD.

Admiral Squish
2010-08-01, 04:14 PM
One thing I'd like to suggest: If you're going to keep making LOTR monster and things, I'd make a single thread and just keep adding in monsters to it. Makes it much neater and easier to keep track of than having five or six floating creations. Plus, anyone who's a fan of you work can subscribe to that thread and just check it periodically, rather than constantly scanning for new threads.

LOTRfan
2010-08-01, 04:17 PM
Yeah, that'd probably help... Thanks.