Vow of Poverty Alternatives (PEACH)

[Talbot]

Not sure whether this belongs in here or in Homebrew, but I'm posting it here.

Essentially, I want to play a character with no loot or money, but I don't want Vow of Poverty because A) it's a little (read: lot) too magicky, B) (which I'm sure looks like a smiley face instead of the letter "B") it pretty much neutralizes a lot of the downsides of not having loot (specifically with regards to saves/to hit/damage/stats), and C) while I do want my character to be good, I'm not sure I want him all the way to Exalted.

So, I've come up with 3 potential fixes, and would love to hear either new ideas for the Playground or improvements/suggestions for the ideas immediately following this sentence.

Option 1: Bonus feats, limited to those on the fighter lists (so you can't be using them on really powerful/cool stuff like Keen Intellect/Knowledge Devotion/Metamagic etc.) Not sure how many or when (giving the full fighter progression is probably overkill, but giving up all equipment is a pretty big sacrifice... I think six or seven would probably be about right).

Option 2 (mostly for melee characters): Give a feat every other level, but it has to be Martial Study (waive the limit of three) or Martial Stance. This gives more maneuvers known, but shouldn't be overpowering since it doesn't give any more maneuvers readied.

Option 3: Instead of extra feats or poverty bonuses, give bonuses (either feats or class feature type stuff) that fits the idea of a character with no loot/reliance on other items. Maybe he gets Evasion since he's not weighed down by a carrying load or any armor.... or picks up speed related feats in the vein of Combat Reflexes, Dodge, and Spring Attack. Maybe he gets Iron Will or Lightning Reflexes or Great Fortitude (or Improved Toughness) for free at a certain level because he's had to learn to rely on himself, rather than armor or healers, to avoid horrible horrible death. A sample progression that might be fair would probably be something like:

1) Improved Initiative
2) +1 to Survival
3) Dodge (or one of the Dodge Variants)
4) +1 to Survival
5) Lightning Reflexes
6) +1 to Survival
7) Iron Will
8) +1 to Survival
9) Great Fortitude
10) Improved Toughness, +1 to Survival
11) Evasion
12) +1 to Survival
13) Combat Reflexes
14) +1 to Survival
15) 10 ft Increase to speed
16) +1 Survival
17) +2 to Str & Dex checks, but not the actual abilities themselves (so no bonus to attack rolls or AC, only checks)
18) +1 to Survival
19) Improved Evasion
20) Another 10ft increase to speed, +1 to Survival

That progression is kind of build around the idea of giving out feats that are useful but not useful enough to take normally under most circumstances (except for Improved Initiative and Combat Reflexes, which are pretty good) and other little boosts that make sense for a guy with no armor/backpack. You'll notice they're exclusively defensive/survivability related boosts, which again I think makes sense for a dude who has no armor, shelter, or money to fall back on. The Survival bonuses are meant to represent the fact that the guy can't (or more accurately, won't) buy food, so he has to learn to fend for himself. Full ranks would be a little much, so instead he gets a little under half. It's probably not an ideal/perfect progression, but I just threw it together by way of an example.

Basically, I'm looking for a way to make the character playable/fun without making his broke-ness irrelevant.

Any ideas, or suggestions to improve the above?

[BooNL]

The whole reason why VoP is underpowered is that everything you get can be replicated with items, better even. The main culprits are a lack of flight and pretty low stat adjustments. Basically you only get the Tomes of X, but none of the items of Dex/Wis/etc.

I like the approach you're taking. I'm building a wealthless character at the moment as well, and while I can easily make him Good, I'd rather him be neutral given his background. However, the suggested alternatives aren't really good.

Option 1: This is probably the best of the lot. I'd open it up to any feat however. Given the fact that you're giving up *all* you're equipment, there should be a fair return (though you don't have to break even).
My problem with this option is that only receiving feats is a bit... underwhelming.

Option 2: Strictly worse than option 1, no deal.

Option 3: Take a look at what you suggested. I understand the reasoning, but you're suggesting all the equipment you'd normally get is more or less on par with feats like Dodge and Iron Will. I like the suggestion, but this is just not a fair trade off.

I know you don't want the trade off to be equal, but you're seriously gimping yourself with these fixes.

To be honest, I think VoP is quite a cool concept and most of the things you get are pretty good and for a game that's not optimized out of whack, even fairly manageble. My suggested fixes would be to remove Sacred Vow as a prereq and ditch the exalted feats. Instead, replace them with a feat progression such as the one you suggested in option 1, maybe a few less feats than the original exalted progression.
That opens up a lot of opportunities for the character.

Also, any magicky effects could be contributed to a hightened sense of awareness and the knowledge aquired by fighting purely with your own body and mind.
If you want to remove the magicky aspect, you could ditch the (greater) sustenance and mind shielding abilities.

[Vangor]

Perhaps the greatest issue with VoP is the bonuses attempt to offset the magical equipment you are sacrificing, despite this not working. Still, the result is you are spending a couple of feats to gain bonuses and more feats than you can use from a really "meh" list in order to equate with magical item power in order to roleplay a really charitable person. For starters, vows in general should be character options as opposed to feats.

Now, solving the issue cannot be done by trying to provide comparable power for the magical items you lost by giving feats or flat bonuses; this is a significant trait to play, not a way to avoid losing gear when captured. To this end, VoP needs rather unique bonuses. Increased personal reliance and discipline is a good direction to take, but the bonuses are still eclipsed easily with magical gear especially as levels continue. Something unique, but I don't know what that is, is necessary to make VoP attractive.

[Kaww]

You should make it a bit more powerful, just don't give fighter 7 more feats; it's really pushing it (lvl 20 - 24 feats is too much, really).

The VoP and anything similar MUST be worse than not having equipment because it is your personal sacrifice, VoP is there just to ease your suffering.

On the other hand you should try and balance your idea with a VoP by playtesting - add a bit/remove a bit after every test until even or somewhere in the close vicinity of even. Why not add something offensive-if I am hitting dragons with a common sword I get to hit better than the wimps that do it with magic weapons when we wield the same weapon.

[Talbot]

Ok, so the consensus so far seems to be that I'm not giving out enough goodies to make it playable.... let's try again:

All Levels: +1 Skill Point
1) Improved Initiative, Bonus Feat (Fighter list)
2) +1 to Survival,
3) Dodge (or one of the Dodge Variants)
4) +1 to Survival, Bonus Feat (Fighter list)
5) Lightning Reflexes, Bonus Feat (No restriction)
6) +1 to Survival, +2 to Dex
7) Iron Will, Bonus Feat (Fighter List)
8) +1 to Survival, Uncanny Dodge
9) Great Fortitude
10) Improved Toughness, +1 to Survival, Bonus Feat (No restriction), Bonus Feat (Fighter list)
11) Evasion
12) +1 to Survival, +2 to Con
13) Combat Reflexes, Bonus Feat (Fighter List)
14) +1 to Survival, Improved Uncanny Dodge
15) 10 ft Increase to speed, Bonus Feat (No restriction)
16) +1 Survival, Bonus Feat (Fighter List)
17) +2 to Str & Dex checks, but not the actual abilities themselves (so no bonus to attack rolls or AC, only checks)
18) +1 to Survival, +2 to Str, Mettle
19) Improved Evasion, Bonus Feat (Fighter List)
20) Another 10ft increase to speed, +1 to Survival, Bonus Feat (no restriction)

Basically, I took progression 3 and added a bunch of feats (four unconditional, six Fighter list only), some minor physical stat boosts, Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge, and a skill point per level (to represent the increased resourcefulness of a character with no luxuries/tools).

The goal here is to make an itemless/wealthless character playable in a way that is both reasonably balanced and thematically appropriate. Am I getting closer?

[jseah]

Were there ways to get flight with feats? You really need that at high level play.

The good things I can see:
4 feats is very good.
Imp. Init, Evasion and Mettle is ok.

I can see a druid taking this, given that Druid 20 is quite feat starved and Druid can easily pass over the high component cost spells. I still think that magic items are better though.
- Evasion and Mettle on Druid is lolz (good to have, but not important), Imp. Init is actually good on a Druid.
- And +4 feats in a no-bonus feat class that is multi-threat? Pure gold. You could build a druid with the feats for two out of Wildshape/Summoning/Spell lines. (Augment Summoning + Frost summon line + Ash/Greenbound, combined with Natural Spell, WS and various WS improving feats like PA)

[Jayabalard]

Ok, so the consensus so far seems to be that I'm not giving out enough goodies to make it playable.... Keep in mind that people are assuming that your games actually played at the recommended Wealth by Leve (WBL). If that's not the case, then VoP is not underpowered, and your alternative options may not be underpowered either. I'm not saying that this is the case, but just that you need to take what other people say with a grain of salt.

[Talbot]

Keep in mind that people are assuming that your games actually played at the recommended Wealth by Leve (WBL). If that's not the case, then VoP is not underpowered, and your alternative options may not be underpowered either. I'm not saying that this is the case, but just that you need to take what other people say with a grain of salt.

It is likely to be a somewhat below WBL game, but most characters do have at least a few magic items, and others are at or approaching WBL.

Plus, you know, they have armor/weapons/food.

[The Glyphstone]

The root problem with this idea is that the math behind 3.5 assumes you'll have magical bonuses to your AC, hit, and usually your damage. It's not as carefully calculated as 4E does it, but a character with no enhancement bonuses who isn't a full caster will not be playable past level 10 or so - far too fragile, and with oppressively low damage output. It's a very good progression for a character who just lives alone in the wilderness without magic gear, but you won't be able to keep up with a conventional character, or even a VoP character, in any sense of adventuring unless the DM is deliberately working with you to give lower-CR monsters than expected (at which point said conventional characters will steamroll them).

[kestrel404]

You say you want a VoP alternative that's less magic intensive.

Well, VoP is considdered underpowered relative to WBL. If you want your alternative to be 'playable', it has to be AT LEAST as good as VOP.

So, let's compare. Over 20 levels, you get:
20 skill points.
+10 to Survival (if you don't get to carry food, you're going to need it!)
7 Fixed Feats
7 Fighter Feats
4 Bonus feats
+2 to 3 predetermined stats
Improved evasion, Improved uncanny, Mettle
+20 move speed
+2 to various skill checks (about 10?)

So, if we look at this from a feats-gained perspective, you've got 5 (skill points), 1.5 (epic skill focus(survival)), 18 (straight up feats gained), 6 (stat gains), 6.5 (class features), 4 (move speed increase) and 5 (misc skill boni) For a total of: 46

Vow of Poverty adjustments gains over the same period: 110 (by my estimate)

Just as a frame of reference, I've given WBL for level 20 a value of between 150 and 400.

[Jayabalard]

The root problem with this idea is that the math behind 3.5 assumes you'll have magical bonuses to your AC, hit, and usually your damage. It's not as carefully calculated as 4E does it, but a character with no enhancement bonuses who isn't a full caster will not be playable past level 10 or so - far too fragile, and with oppressively low damage output. While I agree that it has a lot of problems, this isn't completely true; you can still sometimes use the CR system as long as you stick to opponents that also should have gained power through items, and restrict their access to items in the same way that you restrict PC access to magic items. It means that you aren't dealing with monsters, but rather humanoids (generally) who have class levels.


It is likely to be a somewhat below WBL game, but most characters do have at least a few magic items, and others are at or approaching WBL.

Plus, you know, they have armor/weapons/food.certainly, but "armor/weapons/food" are not in the neighborhood as "readily available items for flying starting at X lvl" ... and it's the latter that makes people say that VoP is underpowered rather than the former.

[The Glyphstone]

While I agree that it has a lot of problems, this isn't completely true; you can still sometimes use the CR system as long as you stick to opponents that also should have gained power through items, and restrict their access to items in the same way that you restrict PC access to magic items. It means that you aren't dealing with monsters, but rather humanoids (generally) who have class levels.


Point conceded. If most, or all of your enemies are humanoids who would be equally dependent on items and gear to maintain power equality, it's not as much of a problem. On the other hand, following that route ends you with either equipping them properly to maintain an effective CR and rapidly over-gearing the members of the party who have not chosen to go without gear, or have the enemies without gear and thus significantly hampered in their ability to provide a challenge in combat.

This sort of non-combatant-VoP would be much more suited to a social or intrigue-style game, where the drastic difference in combat abilities would be muted or simply irrelevant. In a classical kick-down-doors game, or even one with a above-minimal ratio of combat, the gear-less character will have to either be a spellcaster or be forced into the sidelines.

[Kaww]

All Levels: +1 Skill Point
1) Improved Initiative, Bonus Feat (Fighter list)
2) +1 to Survival,
3) Dodge (or one of the Dodge Variants)
4) +1 to Survival, Bonus Feat (Fighter list)
5) Lightning Reflexes, Bonus Feat (No restriction)
6) +1 to Survival, +2 to Dex
7) Iron Will, Bonus Feat (Fighter List)
8) +1 to Survival, Uncanny Dodge
9) Great Fortitude
10) Improved Toughness, +1 to Survival, Bonus Feat (No restriction), Bonus Feat (Fighter list)
11) Evasion
12) +1 to Survival, +2 to Con
13) Combat Reflexes, Bonus Feat (Fighter List)
14) +1 to Survival, Improved Uncanny Dodge
15) 10 ft Increase to speed, Bonus Feat (No restriction)
16) +1 Survival, Bonus Feat (Fighter List)
17) +2 to Str & Dex checks, but not the actual abilities themselves (so no bonus to attack rolls or AC, only checks)
18) +1 to Survival, +2 to Str, Mettle
19) Improved Evasion, Bonus Feat (Fighter List)
20) Another 10ft increase to speed, +1 to Survival, Bonus Feat (no restriction)


Getting there, but it still doesn't fly if not a full caster; think of scoundrels and warriors a bit more. Fighter player hits his head with a rock and says no more feats, please...

This is just my opinion.

Regards!

[Talbot]

Getting there, but it still doesn't fly if not a full caster; think of scoundrels and warriors a bit more. Fighter player hits his head with a rock and says no more feats, please...

This is just my opinion.

Regards!

Ok, so I need to come up with a way to make them able to (at least almost) keep up with full WBL characters? I guess the trap is making sure I don't just make them effectively WBL characters; they need to be different (but almost equal)...

Increasing Saves could help while still fitting the "has to learn to survive without extra gear" vibe, and make them more relevant against casters. I don't want to give them flight because, well, that's silly. Being so broke you can fly doesn't really make any sense... I guess you could throw some SR on there, but it's probably more trouble than it's worth and I don't really know anything about how SR works (I play Factotum in my main game, so I never really need to worry about it). I think I've given out enough feats already, so let's try...


All Levels: +1 Skill Point
Every Other Level: +1 to Saves and +1 Dodge Bonus to AC
Every Fourth Level: +1 to Attack and Damage
Every Fifth Level: Ignore one Spell or Spell Like Ability per day (non-casters only)
1) Improved Initiative, Bonus Feat (Fighter list)
2) +1 to Survival,
3) Dodge (or one of the Dodge Variants)
4) +1 to Survival, Bonus Feat (Fighter list)
5) Lightning Reflexes, Bonus Feat (No restriction)
6) +1 to Survival, +2 to Dex
7) Iron Will, Bonus Feat (Fighter List)
8) +1 to Survival, Uncanny Dodge
9) Great Fortitude
10) Improved Toughness, +1 to Survival, Bonus Feat (No restriction), Bonus Feat (Fighter list)
11) Evasion
12) +1 to Survival, +2 to Con
13) Combat Reflexes, Bonus Feat (Fighter List)
14) +1 to Survival, Improved Uncanny Dodge
15) 10 ft Increase to speed, Bonus Feat (No restriction)
16) +1 Survival, Bonus Feat (Fighter List)
17) +2 to Str & Dex checks, but not the actual abilities themselves (so no bonus to attack rolls or AC, only checks)
18) +1 to Survival, +2 to Str, Mettle
19) Improved Evasion, Bonus Feat (Fighter List)
20) Another 10ft increase to speed, +1 to Survival, Bonus Feat (no restriction)

This way, between the high saves/touch AC/ability to ignore magic, they should be difficult for casters to take down without being intensely magical themselves. You can fluff the ignore spells bit as basically an Iron Heart Surge or Factotum type burst of Will/Fort/Reflex/Skill to ignore/avoid/otherwise not get owned by magic picked up from years (or at least levels) of avoiding it.

Getting any closer? Any non-magical suggestions?

[The Glyphstone]

Getting much better. At the end of this, you net +10 to all saves, +10 AC, +5 attack and +5 damage. The only part of that which could be too much is the save boost, but this also isn't handing out the stat boosts that are standard for WBL-equipped people and also packed into the VoP, so it's not as bad at a second glance.

You'd need to define what 'ignore' means though in more detail. Automatically cause a spell-based attack roll to miss? Automatically pass a save against a spell? Have Spell Immunity versus a single spell, even if it's SR no? Any combination of the above? Also, it seems a little odd to make that effect non-casters only, both for the seemingly arbitrary nature (the logic is understandable, but it looks arbitrary), and the fact that it still hampers some people, because then you have to define what a caster is...wizards and clerics and druids are, naturally, but are Rangers or Paladins? Hexblades?

[Gavinfoxx]

What about Damage Reduction?

[Kaww]

I don't want to give them flight because, well, that's silly. Being so broke you can fly doesn't really make any sense... .


I was misinterpreted. By "fly" I meant work, and by work I do not mean that the character ought to find a job.

Test it. Get one of your players to come and test with you (I do that because I feel like an idiot if I roll dices all by myself for an hour or two, and misery seeks company :smallsmile:). It looks better and it MAY be viable.

Good luck.

[DMBlackhart]

The way me and the people I regularly game with in handling this sort of thing is, just don't use the loot the encounter's provide.

I know it seems a bit unorthodox, but really what does it hurt? Sure you can throw a bunch of numbers in there to make it SOUND horrible, but whenever any of us GM/DM we usually just tailor the encounters to the PCs.

Which works really well actually, but this is just my own personal opinion. I say try different things till you find one that sticks.

[Talbot]

I feel like we're getting closer... I've tried to clarify the "ignoring spells" bit below, and moved the non-caster restriction (although this is now becoming something that almost every Druid would benefit from, so I need to come up with a way to fix that). I've also added a bit on the mechanics of how it would work.

All Levels: +1 Skill Point
Every Other Level: +1 to Saves and +1 Dodge Bonus to AC
Every Fourth Level: +1 to Attack and Damage
Every Fifth Level: Ignore all negative effects of a Spell, Spell Like Ability or Supernatural Ability that targets you once per day.
1) Improved Initiative, Bonus Feat (Fighter list)
2) +1 to Survival
3) Dodge (or one of the Dodge Variants)
4) +1 to Survival, Bonus Feat (Fighter list)
5) Lightning Reflexes, Bonus Feat (No restriction)
6) +1 to Survival, +2 to Dex
7) Iron Will, Bonus Feat (Fighter List)
8) +1 to Survival, Uncanny Dodge
9) Great Fortitude
10) Improved Toughness, +1 to Survival, Bonus Feat (No restriction), Bonus Feat (Fighter list)
11) Evasion
12) +1 to Survival, +2 to Con
13) Combat Reflexes, Bonus Feat (Fighter List)
14) +1 to Survival, Improved Uncanny Dodge
15) 10 ft Increase to speed, Bonus Feat (No restriction)
16) +1 Survival, Bonus Feat (Fighter List)
17) +2 to Str & Dex checks, but not the actual abilities themselves (so no bonus to attack rolls or AC, only checks)
18) +1 to Survival, +2 to Str, Mettle
19) Improved Evasion, Bonus Feat (Fighter List)
20) Another 10ft increase to speed, +1 to Survival, Bonus Feat (no restriction)

Life of Poverty- You eschew material possessions and wealth. This is a character option, not a feat, and may be committed to at any level. To commit to this option, a character must give away, destroy, or otherwise permanently part with all property, possessions, and wealth except for non-magical clothing (this clothing may not grant any sort of Armor, Skill, or other bonus), and no more than two non-magical non-masterwork weapons. If committed to at first level, a character gains the abilities of this option as they progress. If they commit to this feat at a level after first, they start gaining the benefits as if they had committed to the option at first level, but they gain them at double speed until their level for the purposes of this option equals their character level. For example, a ninth level Paladin eschews all of his material possessions. At ninth level, he would have gained Improved Initiative (since he is not longer burdened with all his armor, weaponry, and accessories, a fighter bonus feat, and +1 bonus to Survival). At 12th level, he would gain the 7th and 8th level benefits of this option. At 16th level, he'd be "caught up" and would gain one level's worth of benefits each time he leveled up from then on.

This progression mechanic is designed to allow for a character to have a change of heart (and to allow more equipment-dependent classes to survive the often "sudden death" early levels more easily) and gain the full benefits from this option, but also discourages a character hopping into this option at a convenient level. It also makes sense from a logistical standpoint; a higher level character would adapt to possession-less adventuring more quickly than a lower level one, and would therefore progress more quickly to the higher level benefits of this option.

A character who has taken this option may abandon at any time (by deliberately buying/possessing something), but if they do they lose any and all benefits they've gained from following this option, and must deduct the appropriate number of skill points from their ranks, even if they do not remember specifically where they spent their skill points. If a character has dropped this option, they may not re-commit to it for at least three levels. Upon recommitting, they gain the benefits of the option as described above, although they start from the level at which they abandoned it and regain all the benefits they lost when they abandoned the option, rather than starting over at level one. This is to keep characters from hopping in and out of the option as it suits them.

At DM's discretion, certain items or types of property may not invalidate this option; a higher level character who decides to reside in a nice villa given to him by grateful townspeople may not necessarily lose the benefits of the option since it doesn't directly influence his adventuring, and a DM may decide that some simple tools (perhaps a carving knife, or a lockpick for a rogue) are not significant enough to count as disqualifying items. DMs should make a point of being clear with their players what sort of items do and don't disqualify a character from this option.

There are no alignment, skill, or level requirements for this option. Any character who owns nothing (save for the possible exceptions discussed above) may take this option.

[BumblingDM]

since there is nothing required to get into this but throwing away your stuff, I would probably set it up so that you cannot choose to come back to it if you stray from the path.

[Talbot]

since there is nothing required to get into this but throwing away your stuff, I would probably set it up so that you cannot choose to come back to it if you stray from the path.

I dunno. It already takes you three levels to get back in, which I think opens up some interesting RP opportunities...and the way the progression works, it's not like you can hop out for six levels then hop back in with no consequences; it'd take you a while to catch up (say you leave the option at ten and come back at 16...you'd cap out at 18 at level 20).

More revisions: I'm thinking of lowering the bonuses to saves/damage since the whole point of this alternative is making the character playable without replicating what loot gives you... and letting the character end up with a +5 weapon at the end seems to fly in the face of that. Alternatively, maybe a higher bonus to hit but a lower bonus to damage? I feel like that makes more sense. I'd also like to throw in one or two other "do cool thing X Y times per day" features, but I'm having a hard time deciding what they'd be. I'm also considering staggering the bonuses to saves so you only get bonuses to two saves at time (i.e., Ref and Will at level 2, Will and Fort and level 4, Fort and Ref at level 6, etc.). Finally, I'm considering either upping the stat boosts to +4 (either all at once or split over two levels) or adding Wisdom as stat boost (seems thematically appropriate for a character with no material possessions), but probably not both.

Current Progression, for anybody still paying attention:


All Levels: +1 Skill Point
Every Other Level: +1 to Saves and +1 Dodge Bonus to AC
Every Third Level: +1 to Attack
Every Fifth Level: Ignore all negative effects of a Spell, Spell Like Ability or Supernatural Ability that targets you once per day.
Every Sixth Level: +1 to Damage
1) Improved Initiative, Bonus Feat (Fighter list)
2) +1 to Survival
3) Dodge (or one of the Dodge Variants)
4) +1 to Survival, Bonus Feat (Fighter list)
5) Lightning Reflexes, Bonus Feat (No restriction)
6) +1 to Survival, +2 to Dex
7) Iron Will, Bonus Feat (Fighter List)
8) +1 to Survival, Uncanny Dodge
9) Great Fortitude
10) Improved Toughness, +1 to Survival, Bonus Feat (No restriction), Bonus Feat (Fighter list)
11) Evasion
12) +1 to Survival, +2 to Con
13) Combat Reflexes, Bonus Feat (Fighter List)
14) +1 to Survival, Improved Uncanny Dodge
15) 10 ft Increase to speed, Bonus Feat (No restriction)
16) +1 Survival, Bonus Feat (Fighter List)
17) +2 to Str & Dex checks, but not the actual abilities themselves (so no bonus to attack rolls or AC, only checks)
18) +1 to Survival, +2 to Str, Mettle
19) Improved Evasion, Bonus Feat (Fighter List)
20) Another 10ft increase to speed, +1 to Survival, Bonus Feat (no restriction), Additional +1 to Hit

Total Benefits at 20th Level: +6 to Hit, +3 to Damage, +10 to Saves and AC, +10 to Survival, +2 to Physical Stats, +2 to Str/Dex checks, Improved Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Mettle, 4 Untyped Bonus Feats, 7 Fighter Feats, 7 pre-selected defensive feats, +20 to speed, ability to ignore a Spell/SLA four times per day.


Edit: Another Thought: Variable benefits at certain levels chosen by the players on a case by case basis, similar to the Rogue's higher level class features. With the right available benefits, this could ensure that the character option could work for a wider array of classes. Off the top of my head, I'd say the benefits can be chosen at 13, 16, and 19. Possible benefits would include: Permanent Divine Power (Great for Clerics/Paladins; your God rewards your devotion), +1 to DCs of spells (Great for Casters), Greater Combat Reflexes (Great for some meleers), +10 to Hide/Move Silently/Tumble (nifty for Rogues, makes sense for non-armored characters), +4 to any physical ability score, Spell Resistance, bucket o' skillpoints (let's say 10 or so), ability to stabilize/heal 2xlevel HP on a roll of 19-20 when below 1 HP, +10 bonus to Initiative, +10 bonus to Spot/Listen (great for survivalist types), +2 damage per dice on precision damage, etc. This idea needs a bit more thought and fine-tuning, obviously, but I think it has legs.

I still need as much feedback/input as possible, so if you read this, please post your opinion.

[BumblingDM]

what kind of world are you playing in? or is this designed for just one campaign? or is this an idea you are hoping to be able to apply across many? Curious how balanced it would need to be?

[kestrel404]

I think your latest version is significantly more on-track, especially with the suggestion that you get to choose character options as you go up in level.

One of the more powerful character options is the ability to choose from a list of options on a daily basis - for example, preparing spells, or maneuvers, or choosing what feat you want for the chameleon prestige class. I'd recommend something of that nature, not a spell-progression, but maybe a daily ability that you can choose from a list, or the ability to choose which stats you want to boost today.

Just a thought.

[Talbot]

what kind of world are you playing in? or is this designed for just one campaign? or is this an idea you are hoping to be able to apply across many? Curious how balanced it would need to be?

Ideally you could play it in most/all 3.5 campaigns, although it would be a bit stronger in extremely low magic campaigns and a bit weaker in extremely high magic campaigns.



One of the more powerful character options is the ability to choose from a list of options on a daily basis - for example, preparing spells, or maneuvers, or choosing what feat you want for the chameleon prestige class. I'd recommend something of that nature, not a spell-progression, but maybe a daily ability that you can choose from a list, or the ability to choose which stats you want to boost today.

Interesting... I like the idea, but I struggle to come up with one that makes sense within the context of this character option; what I want to avoid as much as I can is the Vow of Poverty conceit that being broke gives you superpowers. I'll think on it and see if I can come up with something that's both functional and logical.

[Talbot]

Pardon the double post, but I seem to remember somebody saying that rule is less set in stone in the Homebrew forum (and I'm between seventy and ninety percent sure that I didn't just imagine it). Besides, I'm presenting new information and such.

Anyways, here's what I've come up with as far as "Variable Bonuses" for levels 13, 16, and 19. These may only be taken once unless specifically listed otherwise.

*Olympian- +4 to all physical stats.

*Meditation- +4 to all mental stats.

*Tricky - Gain any two Skill Tricks, whether or not you meet the prerequisites. This option may be taken more than once.

*Self-Improvement- You gain +6 to one ability score of your choosing. Does not stack with Olympian or Meditation.

*Unbeliever- Gain 13 + Character Level Spell Resistance (Divine Spells only; if you rely on a deity for your spells (Paladin, Cleric), this SR does not apply to spells cast by other followers of that deity or any spells in that deity's domains).

*Sprinter- Your land speed is doubled.

*Mundane- Gain 13 + 1/2 Character Level Spell Resistance (Arcane Spell only).

*Slippery Mind- As the Class Feature

*Diehard- As the Class Feature

*Resourceful- Gain 20 Skill Points. This option may be taken more than once.

*Efficient Spell Caster- Once per day you may cast a spell using any metamagic you know with one half the adjustment.

*Attentive- +15 to Spot and Listen

*Crippler- Add +2 damage per dice on any precision-based (Critical hits, sneak attack, favored enemy, skirmish, sudden strike) damage you deal. This option may be taken twice.

*Restful- You gain all the benefits of an eight hour rest by taking a six hour rest. This option may be taken more than once, reducing the required rest by two hours each time.

*Twist the Knife- The critical multiplier for whatever weapon you use increases by one while you use it.

*Finisher- The crit range of any weapon you wield is increased by two. This stacks with the Improved Critical feat and similar abilities, but the increase is added after the multiplied threat range, not before.

*Eye for the Weak Spot- You may deal precision-based damage (as listed under Crippler) to constructs and plants. You still may not deal it to undead or oozes.

*Self-Reliance- Once per day by spending one hour tending to your own wounds, you may heal HP equal to your Heal modifier x 6.

All of these were designed based on the idea that they were skills/talents/strengths that a character who had made it to level 13 without any loot would likely and believably pick up, whether it be a resistance to harmful magics or an increase in physical fitness.

Thoughts? Feelings? Contributions?

[Kaww]

I think that you overdid it a bit now.

This is supposed to ease the fact that you don't use magic items, not to compensate by you keeping up with WBL. I insist on this interpretation both as a player and a DM. That's just my opinion. Also, you should make a restriction that the player can not use VoP feat.

[Talbot]

I think that you overdid it a bit now.

This is supposed to ease the fact that you don't use magic items, not to compensate by you keeping up with WBL. I insist on this interpretation both as a player and a DM. That's just my opinion. Also, you should make a restriction that the player can not use VoP feat.

Yeah, it's a Vow of Poverty alternative, not a supplement.

As for it being too powerful now, you do realize that last update, each character can only have a maximum of three of those benefits, right? I'm not advocating a character that can up all their stats by four, one of them by ten, have a ton of spell resistance, crit on undead, rest for two hours, AND be a crit machine; they have to pick and choose (while a character with loot could have all those benefits and more). And I've still deliberately shied away from the most powerful stuff (flying, invisibility, spell-trigger items, miss chances, immunities) that loot can provide.

I'm about 99 percent sure I want to scale back the save advancement a little, so each save ends up with +7 instead of +10. Other than that I think this thing is starting to take the shape I want it to have.

Of course, I'm still starved for more input/feedback, so please let me know what you think.

[BumblingDM]

I am in the same boat as Kaww, I do not mean to offend but I see this option as now passing up characters depending on the game - I do notice that at 1st level your human fighter has 5 feats. I think you may need to tone it down in the earlier levels. Not everyone can fly at level 1.

[Talbot]

I am in the same boat as Kaww, I do not mean to offend but I see this option as now passing up characters depending on the game - I do notice that at 1st level your human fighter has 5 feats. I think you may need to tone it down in the earlier levels. Not everyone can fly at level 1.

No offense taken; I've been howling for criticism.

However, I think at Level 1, the difference between two feats (assuming the other Fighter doesn't have Flaws; which should probably not be takeable by a character with this option), one of which is Improved Init, is probably mostly mitigated by the fact that the other fighter has armor (depending on build type and starting gold, benefiting from somewhere between +2 to +10 AC). Assuming the first three feats, overlap, we're talking about an Initiative bonus and an extra trick (at that level, probably something like Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, or at worst, Improved Trip) that, while helpful, probably doesn't make up for being (on average) about 25% easier to hit.

On the other hand, pushing back the first bonus feat to level 2 probably doesn't cripple the option and gives Wealth-using fighter enough time to snag some better gear, a masterwork weapon, etc. Does that seem like a good compromise?

Other Changes I'm Almost Definitely Implementing: Scaling back the save progressions so they only gain two saves at every other level (except 20, where they still get all three), instead of all three, bringing them each to a total of +7, and reducing the "Ignore a Spell or SLA" to only working on Spells or SLAs directly targeting the character, removing two of the extra uses, either 5 & 15 or 10 & 20.

[Avid_Fan]

Hey, I've seen a VoP character in action and thought I'd give my two cents. Sorry if any of the things I'm about to say are repeats of what folks have already posted. I only glanced over some of the responses.
I think there are some bonuses in there, while balanced, don't really make sense to couple with the poverty concept UNLESS you go the exalted route. I read you weren't sure if you wanted your character to be such, but without that idea of a divine commitment to being free of worldly things and being rewarded by gods makes this character option silly.
Something you might do for balance ideas is to look at the wealth by level (dmg135) totals and see if you're ramping up the superpowers at a good speed. The vow replaces the magic item powers a normal character would have access to, but perhaps it gets those compensations too fast. take a look at what you can buy for 9000 gold for instance and compair those items' powers to your 5th level hobo.
All and all, with all the feats and crazy bonuses in this, I'd say you'd be better off slapping a base attack and saves progression on this and calling it a class.
As a side note: Do you think anyone would take a vow of poverty without the promise of a sweet hookup? Is't that gesture kind of meanless at that point?

[Talbot]

Hey, I've seen a VoP character in action and thought I'd give my two cents. Sorry if any of the things I'm about to say are repeats of what folks have already posted. I only glanced over some of the responses.
I think there are some bonuses in there, while balanced, don't really make sense to couple with the poverty concept UNLESS you go the exalted route. I read you weren't sure if you wanted your character to be such, but without that idea of a divine commitment to being free of worldly things and being rewarded by gods makes this character option silly.


I'm inclined to disagree; almost none of the hookups are explicitly magical or divine, and to me, at least, make sense as the survival mechanisms of a wealth-less character in a world of +5 weapons and Cloaks of Displacement. The actual motive for the poverty isn't as important to me as the consequence; when you don't have the luxuries of good weapons and armor to go kill the orcs/save the princess/overhthrow the corrupt government, you have to make due... in this case, by making sure you don't make it easy for the baddies to hit you with their +5 swords, and picking up enough combat tricks (feats) to compensate for their armor (WOTC did something similar, although at a much smaller level, with their unarmored AC rules from Unearthed Arcana. I happen to think they did it about as badly as they could do it (Unarmored Clerics are harder to hit than Unarmored Rogues?!) in that case, but still, they tried to do it).

Of course, that's just the way I look at it; it could easily be re-fluffed as being Exalted Only or Divine Only or Whatever Only... but for the purposes of this thread, I'm not terribly interested in that route; my agenda is simply to create a supplementary progression for wealth-less characters that allows them to remain relevant as they progress in a world of magic loot without simply replicating the benefits they'd get if they had magic loot... whether or not it's working very well isn't yet clear, although the only playtest so far (a level 11 Swordsage) came out right about where it should have, combat wise, so that's encouraging.



As a side note: Do you think anyone would take a vow of poverty without the promise of a sweet hookup? Isn't that gesture kind of meanless at that point?

I don't happen to think so. The character concepts that inspired this exercise were an Unarmed Swordsage philosopher who lives in the mountains meditating and training, and a paranoid Soulknife who lives in the woods and hunts Undead. It'd be goofy for either of those characters to be walking around with Truedeath Crystals and Boots of Flying, but considering how much of their time is devoted to being badasses, there's no reason they shouldn't be badasses.

[Zaydos]

I'll say I like this so far, can't wait to see the next revised table. Looks like it ought to be useful for making some Conan-esque characters.

[Talbot]

Latest revision, designed to deal with the problems of invisible or flying opponents:

All Levels: +1 Skill Point, -1 to opposing Damage Reduction
Every Other Level: +1 Dodge Bonus to AC, +1 to two Saves, with the saves rotating each time (I.E., +1 Ref and Will at level 2, +1 Will and Fort at level 4, +1 Fort and Ref at level 6, etc.), with all three getting a boost at level 20 for a total of +7 to each save.
Every Third Level: +1 to Attack
Every Sixth Level: +1 to Damage
Every Tenth Level: Ignore all negative effects of a Spell, Spell Like Ability or Supernatural Ability that specifically targets you once per day.
1) Improved Initiative
2) +1 to Survival, +1 to Listen
3) Dodge (or one of the Dodge Variants), +2 to Str & Dex checks, but not the actual abilities themselves (so no bonus to attack rolls or AC, only checks)
4) +1 to Survival, +1 to Listen, Bonus Feat (Fighter list)
5) Lightning Reflexes, Bonus Feat (No restriction)
6) +1 to Survival, +1 to Listen, +2 to Dex
7) Iron Will, Bonus Feat (Fighter List)
8) +1 to Survival, +1 to Listen, Uncanny Dodge
9) Great Fortitude, Mettle, +2 to Str
10) Improved Toughness, +1 to Survival, +1 to Listen, Bonus Feat (No restriction), Bonus Feat (Fighter list)
11) Evasion
12) +1 to Survival, +1 to Listen, +2 to Con, Sky Jump (see below)
13) Combat Reflexes, Bonus Feat (Fighter List), Special Ability *see below*
14) +1 to Survival, +1 to Listen, Improved Uncanny Dodge
15) 10 ft Increase to speed, Bonus Feat (No restriction)
16) +1 Survival, +1 to Listen, Bonus Feat (Fighter List), Special Ability *see below*
17) 10 ft Increase to speed, Scent
18) +1 to Survival, +1 to Listen, +2 to any one mental stat
19) Improved Evasion, Bonus Feat (Fighter List) Special Ability *see below*
20) Another 10ft increase to speed, +1 to Survival, +1 to Listen, Bonus Feat (no restriction), Additional +1 to Hit

Notes: Wealthless characters, by necessity alert and slightly paranoid, may locate creatures (invisible and concealed creatures included) with a Listen check (made as a free action), so long as their listen check defeats the opposing creature's Move Silent check (if the creature made no such check, the listen check auto-succeeds). Upon making a successful listen check, the Wealthless character knows what square the enemy inhabits, and any mischance granted to the enemy via concealment, invisibility, or similar effect is halved.

Sky Jump- After living long enough to learn how annoying flying foes are, a wealthless character trains him or herself to get them the heck out of they sky. As a full round action, a wealthless character may make a vertical jump check or a running jump check (for instance, to pursue a flying foe), and add a zero to the final result (effectively making a x10 Jump Check). The character takes falling damage as appropriate when they come down. Grapple checks against flying or levitating opponents when using this ability are treated as having the Improved Grapple feat even if the character does not possess it, and add the character's initiative bonus to any grapple checks made in the air. Once grappling, the wealthless character either hangs in the air by latching onto his opponent, or drags his foe to the ground, depending on whether the opponent's method of flight can support both their weights. If he drags the opponent down, he may make another grapple check to try and land on the opponent. If he succeeds, his opponent takes falling damage for both of them, while the wealthless character takes none.

Special Abilities: At 10th, 13th, 16th, and 19th level character may select one of these special abilities. Unless noted otherwise, each ability may only be selected once.

*Olympian- +4 inherent bonus to all physical stats.

*Meditation- +4 inherent to all mental stats.

*Tricky - Gain any three Skill Tricks, whether or not you meet the prerequisites. This option may be taken more than once.

*Maneuverable- Ignore difficult terrain

*Self-Improvement- You gain a +6 inherent bonus to one ability score of your choosing. Does not stack with Olympian or Meditation.

*Unbeliever- Gain 13 + Character Level Spell Resistance (Divine Spells only; if you rely on a deity for your spells (Paladin, Cleric), this SR does not apply to spells cast by other followers of that deity or any spells in that deity's domains).

*Sprinter- Your land speed is doubled.

*Mundane- Gain 13 + 1/2 Character Level Spell Resistance (Arcane Spell only).

*Rapid Strike- The absence of armor and other encumberments allows a wealthless character to strike faster; they may make an additional attack at their highest base attack bonus as part of a full attack.

*Slippery Mind- As the Class Feature

*Diehard- As the Class Feature

*Resourceful- Gain 20 Skill Points. This option may be taken more than once.

*Efficient Spell Caster- Once per day you may cast a spell using any metamagic you know with one half the adjustment. This option may be taken more than once.

*Attentive- +15 to Spot and Listen

*Crippler- Add +2 damage per dice on any precision-based (Critical hits, sneak attack, favored enemy, skirmish, sudden strike) damage you deal. This option may be taken twice.

*Restful- You gain all the benefits of an eight hour rest by taking a six hour rest. This option may be taken more than once, reducing the required rest by two hours each time.

*Twist the Knife- The critical multiplier for whatever weapon you use increases by one while you use it.

*Finisher- The crit range of any weapon you wield is increased by two. This stacks with the Improved Critical feat and similar abilities, but the increase is added after the multiplied threat range, not before.

*Eye for the Weak Spot- You may deal precision-based damage (as listed under Crippler) to constructs and plants. You still may not deal it to undead or oozes.

*Self-Reliance- Once per day by spending one hour tending to your own wounds, you may heal HP equal to your Heal modifier x 6.

*Predictive Defense- A character who takes this option adds one half of his Initiative Bonus to his AC as a dodge bonus.


Changes to take note of: Sky Jump, Listen Checks (and their application), removal of first fighter bonus feat, relocation of Mettle, minor tweaks to stat boosts and when they happen.

[BumblingDM]

I think the sky jump is a little strange - creatures like dragons and what not aren't affected are they?

and it seems weird that they are that much better at jumping than any magic item, but maybe I am reading it wrong. :smallfrown:

Also, look at the listen skill I believe it already does what you are writing in, well except with the half thing.

Just so I think i have it straight - is this what it is supposed to look like?

1) +1 Skill Point, -1 to opposing Damage Reduction, Improved Initiative, +1 Dodge Bonus to AC, +1 to two Saves, with the saves rotating each time

2) +1 Skill Point, -1 to opposing Damage Reduction , +1 to Survival, +1 to Listen

3) +1 Skill Point, -1 to opposing Damage Reduction, Dodge (or one of the Dodge Variants), +2 to Str & Dex checks, but not the actual abilities themselves (so no bonus to attack rolls or AC, only checks), +1 Dodge Bonus to AC, +1 to two Saves, with the saves rotating each time, +1 to Attack

4) +1 Skill Point, -1 to opposing Damage Reduction , +1 to Survival, +1 to Listen, Bonus Feat (Fighter list),

5) +1 Skill Point, -1 to opposing Damage Reduction, Lightning Reflexes, Bonus Feat (No restriction), +1 Dodge Bonus to AC, +1 to two Saves, with the saves rotating each time

6) +1 Skill Point, -1 to opposing Damage Reduction , +1 to Survival, +1 to Listen, +2 to Dex, +1 to Attack

7) +1 Skill Point, -1 to opposing Damage Reduction, Iron Will, Bonus Feat (Fighter List), +1 Dodge Bonus to AC, +1 to two Saves, with the saves rotating each time, +1 to Damage

8) +1 Skill Point, -1 to opposing Damage Reduction , +1 to Survival, +1 to Listen, Uncanny Dodge

9) +1 Skill Point, -1 to opposing Damage Reduction, Great Fortitude, Mettle, +2 to Str, +1 Dodge Bonus to AC, +1 to two Saves, with the saves rotating each time, +1 to Attack

10) +1 Skill Point, -1 to opposing Damage Reduction , Improved Toughness, +1 to Survival, +1 to Listen, Bonus Feat (No restriction), Bonus Feat (Fighter list), Ignore all negative effects of a Spell, Spell Like Ability or Supernatural Ability that specifically targets you once per day.

11) +1 Skill Point, -1 to opposing Damage Reduction, Evasion, +1 Dodge Bonus to AC, +1 to two Saves, with the saves rotating each time

12) +1 Skill Point, -1 to opposing Damage Reduction , +1 to Survival, +1 to Listen, +2 to Con, Sky Jump (see below), +1 to Damage, +1 to Attack

13) +1 Skill Point, -1 to opposing Damage Reduction, Combat Reflexes, Bonus Feat (Fighter List), Special Ability *see below*, +1 Dodge Bonus to AC, +1 to two Saves, with the saves rotating each time

14) +1 Skill Point, -1 to opposing Damage Reduction , +1 to Survival, +1 to Listen, Improved Uncanny Dodge

15) +1 Skill Point, -1 to opposing Damage Reduction, 10 ft Increase to speed, Bonus Feat (No restriction), +1 Dodge Bonus to AC, +1 to two Saves, with the saves rotating each time, +1 to Attack

16) +1 Skill Point, -1 to opposing Damage Reduction , +1 Survival, +1 to Listen, Bonus Feat (Fighter List), Special Ability *see below*

17) +1 Skill Point, -1 to opposing Damage Reduction, 10 ft Increase to speed, Scent, +1 Dodge Bonus to AC, +1 to two Saves, with the saves rotating each time

18) +1 Skill Point, -1 to opposing Damage Reduction , +1 to Survival, +1 to Listen, +2 to any one mental stat, +1 to Damage, +1 to Attack

19) +1 Skill Point, -1 to opposing Damage Reduction, Improved Evasion, Bonus Feat (Fighter List) Special Ability *see below*, +1 Dodge Bonus to AC, +1 to two Saves, with the saves rotating each time

20) +1 Skill Point, -1 to opposing Damage Reduction , Another 10ft increase to speed, +1 to Survival, +1 to Listen, Bonus Feat (no restriction), Additional +1 to hit, Ignore all negative effects of a Spell, Spell Like Ability or Supernatural Ability that specifically targets you once per day.

[Talbot]

Close, but I added another Special Ability at 10th. Other than it looks right.

Things I still think need changing:

Not really happy with Sky Jump. It's the best I could come up with for dealing with flight, but it's also kind of silly.

May or may not add more stat boosts. May or may not remove more feats.

Considering making one or two of the weaker special abilities (Restful, for example) automatic.

Considering making it harder and/or impossible to re-enter the option after leaving it.

Probably lowering the damage reduction penetration to every other level.

Still would like a plausible way of dealing with intangible foes.

[Avid_Fan]

It'd be goofy for either of those characters to be walking around with Truedeath Crystals and Boots of Flying, but considering how much of their time is devoted to being badasses, there's no reason they shouldn't be badasses.

So, you're saying here that boots of flying would be reasonable on anyone else? And more importantly, you're saying that characters that spend time advancing in a normal class progression aren't trying to be badass? What about the fighter who trains constantly, but doesn't have enough money to afford magic items?

I just think the arguement that characters who devote time to be badass should get all this extra stuff on top of levels if weak. They have characters who train to be awesome, it's called leveling in a character class.

If it's all their training for awesome squad that gives them bonuses to skills and stats and saves etc, why do they lose it all when someone hands them a +1 longsword? That makes even less sense.

[Talbot]

So, you're saying here that boots of flying would be reasonable on anyone else? And more importantly, you're saying that characters that spend time advancing in a normal class progression aren't trying to be badass? What about the fighter who trains constantly, but doesn't have enough money to afford magic items?

I just think the argument that characters who devote time to be badass should get all this extra stuff on top of levels if weak. They have characters who train to be awesome, it's called leveling in a character class.

If it's all their training for awesome squad that gives them bonuses to skills and stats and saves etc, why do they lose it all when someone hands them a +1 longsword? That makes even less sense.

I think you may be missing the point of this exercise. I'm not trying to demean magic loot or WBL characters; I'm trying to come up with a progression that boosts wealthless characters to the point where they can hang out with characters who do have +whatever weapons and Wands of Cool Trick X and boots of Ignore That Law of Physics without being totally left in the dust. I'm not even really trying to make them equal to WBL characters, and certainly not superior; just trying to get them into the same ballpark so they can share an adventure.

The rational for their bonuses is sort of an evolutionary one; they don't have the nifty super-gear that others do, so they have to figure out other means of surviving in a world of High Fantasy. If there is an awesome fighter out there who can't afford any gear/loot, he's welcome to take the option. That's what it's there for.

The "losing it if they get loot" mechanic is in there to prevent someone from taking this option for the bonuses, then grabbing up a bunch of loot. You could fluff it as anything from their self-reliance being undermined by the convenience of a magic item to their becoming overconfident once they add nifty gear to the bonuses from the progression, to any number of other things. The actual fluff for it will vary from player to player, and sure, it's mildly goofy, but it's a necessary mechanic for letting loot-less characters play along.

[BumblingDM]

Just some quick questions -

Why just listen and not spot as well?

Are you going to write it with all the bonuses having types? not a big deal just curious?

And maybe it changes the HD of the class it is in to show that you are that class but you have to workout more or be a bit more to make up for your armor problem?

have you gotten to play test it yet?

- not trying to be picky - how does it work with magic spells? Can someone cast magic enhancement on your weapon with out you losing the benefits?
Can people cast spells on them without them losing it - stuff like bulls strength and those sorts?

Just curious if maybe he/she develops resistance to even allies spells, kind of like being a IIRC a person who is kind of immune to magic and thats why they are like they are.

I like the changes - keep up the work

[Baron Corm]

I don't happen to think so. The character concepts that inspired this exercise were an Unarmed Swordsage philosopher who lives in the mountains meditating and training, and a paranoid Soulknife who lives in the woods and hunts Undead. It'd be goofy for either of those characters to be walking around with Truedeath Crystals and Boots of Flying, but considering how much of their time is devoted to being badasses, there's no reason they shouldn't be badasses.

If you want this level of immersion, it doesn't make sense for your average barbarian to be lugging around all of these arbitrary magical necklaces and bracelets either, just to keep up with other "characters" of his "level". You might want to just fashion your game so that every character gets less items, maybe just the standard weapon and armor, and everything else is an artifact. Then the Vow of Poverty feat won't have to contain so much because it represents much less of a drop in power.

[Talbot]

If you want this level of immersion, it doesn't make sense for your average barbarian to be lugging around all of these arbitrary magical necklaces and bracelets either, just to keep up with other "characters" of his "level". You might want to just fashion your game so that every character gets less items, maybe just the standard weapon and armor, and everything else is an artifact. Then the Vow of Poverty feat won't have to contain so much because it represents much less of a drop in power.

That's so limiting, though. It pretty much totally precludes you from playing wealthless in any other DM's game (whereas if I get this option balanced right at least some DMs will be amenable to including it), it removes the contrast between wealthy and wealthless characters, and it limits the options of all the players who DO like to play characters with magic loot and the many benefits that ride sidecar on that.

Or, put more simply, if the "average" Barbarian is lugging around a bunch of magic hoodoo, that's his player's prerogative, and I've got no problem with it. My Swordsage or Soulknife or Rogue (I came up with a third character concept I'd like to use this feature on) isn't going to lug it around, though, and it'd be nice if they could stay relevant in the same party as the walking Barbarian Magic Shop.




Just some quick questions -

Why just listen and not spot as well?



Eh, I'm trying to give out as little as I can while still having the option be viable. I'm not necessarily opposed to handing out Spot, but if I did I'd probably ditch the free Skill Points as at that point I'm giving free bonuses to three different skills.



Are you going to write it with all the bonuses having types? not a big deal just curious?

And maybe it changes the HD of the class it is in to show that you are that class but you have to workout more or be a bit more to make up for your armor problem?



Yes to the first, probably mostly Inherent bonuses (although the stat bonuses may be untyped). I'm hesitant to change the HD as I'm already giving away a Con boost and Improved toughness.



have you gotten to play test it yet?



Only once so far. The Swordsage narrowly defeated an 11 CR spider-construct picked by an impartial DM, but he rolled unusually well for stats, so more testing should probably be done.



- not trying to be picky - how does it work with magic spells? Can someone cast magic enhancement on your weapon with out you losing the benefits?
Can people cast spells on them without them losing it - stuff like bulls strength and those sorts?

Just curious if maybe he/she develops resistance to even allies spells, kind of like being a IIRC a person who is kind of immune to magic and thats why they are like they are.


I think it's fine if a friendly caster casts something on them. No reason to penalize them further than being lootless already does.

[Avid_Fan]

Okay, I see what this is about now. I'm gonna make this my last post on the thread as you and I seem to have different sensabilities on this matter. I just wanted to throw out one last idea and I think it is relevent.

I've played in a lot of games, and I can't think of a single one where the DM keeps strict track of wealth by level. Some games we'd have obscene amounts of loot and gold early on, while other games, we as players were dirt poor for a long time before getting a +1 weapon. Maybe you've played in games where the DM keeps loot logs and dispences it at the appropriate rate; I'm not saying one way is the right way. My point is, the magic items in a game are controlled by the DM and the DM alone. Even if your character is buying the item, it's the DM that allowed you to acquire the gold and it's the DM that had the shopkeeper carry the item you wanted.
If you were running a game, you'd know that your vow of poverty variant is balanced just fine with what wealth you know will be in store for the other wealth based players. But if you aren't the one running the game, there is no way to tell it will be balanced. There is no "one size fits all" wealthless character package that will work in every game.

[BumblingDM]

Just posted my own variant, tell me what you think talbot