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Rannil
2010-07-30, 04:13 PM
One of my RL players recently died and wanted to reroll in a character instead of being resurrected. And the title probably gave away what he wanted to play. A warforged with four arms.

I know there are templates that had extra arms, but they tend to be for living creatures only, are there any special rules for adding arms to a warforged or golem? Should I just ask for a extra feat, or let him spend gold on extra arms. Or would that be unbalanced because templates for extra arms are mostly +2 LA. Personally I don't think two arms add that much power to a character, even though it is a rogue and that could lead to deadly sneak attacks, but he isn't aiming for power, more for fluff.

Thanks in advance.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-30, 04:16 PM
Magic of Eberron contains the Third Arm item. There's a variant of it that has two arms, rather than one. Takes up the waist slot.

Rannil
2010-07-30, 04:25 PM
Do you mean the "Spare Hand"? That maybe is a option, but it wouldn't be able to carry shields or weapons (artificers can). Also the price for 1 is expensive, 12k, and the character is a 6th level with 13k WBL. I don't see a 2-arm version, but I would suspect it has double costs. I think he maybe needs to have something more cheap for now.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-30, 04:31 PM
One of my RL players recently died and wanted to reroll in a character instead of being resurrected. And the title probably gave away what he wanted to play. A warforged with four arms.

I know there are templates that had extra arms, but they tend to be for living creatures only, are there any special rules for adding arms to a warforged or golem? Should I just ask for a extra feat, or let him spend gold on extra arms. Or would that be unbalanced because templates for extra arms are mostly +2 LA. Personally I don't think two arms add that much power to a character, even though it is a rogue and that could lead to deadly sneak attacks, but he isn't aiming for power, more for fluff.

Thanks in advance.

Adding extra arms to a warforged should be no more meaningful then to a human or an orc. A template that adds an extra pair of limbs could easily be changed to represent a new construction of warforged.

Add whatever LA you think is appropriate for a four armed creature an run with it.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-30, 04:44 PM
Do you mean the "Spare Hand"? That maybe is a option, but it wouldn't be able to carry shields or weapons (artificers can). Also the price for 1 is expensive, 12k, and the character is a 6th level with 13k WBL. I don't see a 2-arm version, but I would suspect it has double costs. I think he maybe needs to have something more cheap for now.

Read the end of the item entry: there's a Variant line. if you want, you could go ahead and make it a graft instead of an item. Maybe even a docent component.

Rannil
2010-07-30, 04:53 PM
Adding extra arms to a warforged should be no more meaningful then to a human or an orc. A template that adds an extra pair of limbs could easily be changed to represent a new construction of warforged.

Add whatever LA you think is appropriate for a four armed creature an run with it.

Well with a warforged it feels kinda different. Because the creator just can add extra arms to warforged and golems. There must be something about building golems with multiple arms.

Also I do wonder if it would be unbalanced at +0 LA.


Read the end of the item entry: there's a Variant line. if you want, you could go ahead and make it a graft instead of an item. Maybe even a docent component.
Ah that tiny line. I see. Either way a expensive option nonetheless. Maybe some discount (half cost) because it's creator made it. It would give him a goal, sparing money to buy more arms.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-30, 05:01 PM
Ah that tiny line. I see. Either way a expensive option nonetheless. Maybe some discount (half cost) because it's creator made it. It would give him a goal, sparing money to buy more arms.

See how much the collar of umbral metamorphosis from Tome of Magic costs (the continuous version), compare that to the price of the spare hand (the two arm version). If it's similar or lower, call it a +1 (since the collar gives an LA +1 template as an item, we can use this as a baseline). If it's higher (which I highly doubt), call it a +2.

Rannil
2010-07-30, 05:14 PM
See how much the collar of umbral metamorphosis from Tome of Magic costs (the continuous version), compare that to the price of the spare hand (the two arm version). If it's similar or lower, call it a +1 (since the collar gives an LA +1 template as an item, we can use this as a baseline). If it's higher (which I highly doubt), call it a +2.

They both cost 22k gp. Easy.

But then again, spare hands aren't capable of doing everything normal hands can do too, especially not wielding weapons or shields, I see where the +2 LA then comes from.

Although for the same +2 LA you could get a lot more arms with the Insectoid template + other goodies.

I think I keep it at either 22k gp(decided in 12k and 10k if he takes one arm at a time), or a +1 LA, whatever the PC favors. If it gets to OP I can always had another LA I guess.

NEO|Phyte
2010-07-30, 05:27 PM
I know there are templates that had extra arms, but they tend to be for living creatures only

That living construct subtype isn't just for show, Warforged are in fact living creatures.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-30, 05:31 PM
As to the spare hand, didn't someone say it couldn't use weapons or a shield. Kind of takes away the point as I'd presume the character wants 4 arms to attack with.


See how much the collar of umbral metamorphosis from Tome of Magic costs (the continuous version), compare that to the price of the spare hand (the two arm version). If it's similar or lower, call it a +1 (since the collar gives an LA +1 template as an item, we can use this as a baseline). If it's higher (which I highly doubt), call it a +2.

The Collar of Umbral is horribly under priced for what it gives you,
Speed +10ft
Darkvision 60ft
Hide in Plain Sight
Resistance to cold 10
Superior Low-light vision, then +8 to hide and +6 move silently.

All for only 22,000gp?[for the continuous version]

Resistance to Cold 10 is 12,000gp on a minor ring of elemental resistance,
the darkvison is 5,000gp in goggle form. The skills would be somewhere around 10,000gp on a single item. That still leaves the hide in plain sight and superior low-light vision to figure a price for. [probably 5,000 for the +10ft of speed considering its not an enchantment and would stack with haste]

Yeah I'm thinking 50,000gp is a better price for that item for continuous effects.

Your not honestly going to say that 22,000gp is a fair price for all those abilities.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-30, 05:36 PM
The Collar of Umbral is horribly under priced for what it gives you,
Speed +10ft
Darkvision 60ft
Hide in Plain Sight
Resistance to cold 10
Superior Low-light vision, then +8 to hide and +6 move silently.

All for only 22,000gp?[for the continuous version]

Resistance to Cold 10 is 12,000gp on a minor ring of elemental resistance,
the darkvison is 5,000gp in goggle form. The skills would be somewhere around 10,000gp on a single item. That still leaves the hide in plain sight and superior low-light vision to figure a price for. [probably 5,000 for the +10ft of speed considering its not an enchantment and would stack with haste]

Yeah I'm thinking 50,000gp is a better price for that item for continuous effects

You are also working off a value that is seriously overpriced. Resist Cold 10 for 12kgp is nowhere near worth it. I wouldn't buy darkvision for 5k anywhere when I can get ebon eyes for 2k.

Look, the tl;dr is that its a means to measure how much an LA is worth in GP. Extra arms aren't that powerful (even if they CAN attack), so even if the collar is underpriced, the spare hands match that price--and they're not as useful.

Rannil
2010-07-30, 05:48 PM
That living construct subtype isn't just for show, Warforged are in fact living creatures.

Pardon me. The one I was thinking of, from the DMG, is for born living creatures only. It's sort of a birth mutation. Although "Creator added extra arms" is also a sort of birth mutation eh. :smalltongue:

There is also Insectile, Al though I am not sure how "Insectile creatures" are made. Magic I guess. But he doesn't want to be a insect, else that psionic race was a option. I could fluff the "insect" out of Insectile, but that feels weird.

Insect Warforge does sounds interesting.


You are also working off a value that is seriously overpriced. Resist Cold 10 for 12kgp is nowhere near worth it. I wouldn't buy darkvision for 5k anywhere when I can get ebon eyes for 2k.

Look, the tl;dr is that its a means to measure how much an LA is worth in GP. Extra arms aren't that powerful (even if they CAN attack), so even if the collar is underpriced, the spare hands match that price--and they're not as useful.

So +1 LA for a pair of extra arms is the right LA, it sounds better then 2, (again Insectile gets a lot more at +2, including 4 extra arms and a lot of goodies), maybe I should allow buy off.

And I can always add more LA if he indeed gets to powerful. :smalltongue:

Andion Isurand
2010-07-30, 06:02 PM
Obah-Blessed template from Dungeon Magazine 136 is a fun one to look at.

+2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Cha
one extra pair of arms
multi-weapon fighting bonus feat
+2 LA

-- or --

+4 Str, +6 Dex, +4 Con, +6 Cha
two extra pairs of arms
multi-weapon fighting bonus feat
+3 LA

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-30, 06:31 PM
Obah-Blessed template from Dungeon Magazine 136 is a fun one to look at.

+2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Cha
one extra pair of arms
multi-weapon fighting bonus feat
+2 LA


Quick change to Obah-Constructed and your good to go, maybe knock off the ability score bonuses for a simply +1 LA


You are also working off a value that is seriously overpriced. Resist Cold 10 for 12kgp is nowhere near worth it. I wouldn't buy darkvision for 5k anywhere when I can get ebon eyes for 2k.

Look, the tl;dr is that its a means to measure how much an LA is worth in GP. Extra arms aren't that powerful (even if they CAN attack), so even if the collar is underpriced, the spare hands match that price--and they're not as useful.

How do you get Ebon Eyes for 2K do you mean using the custom magic item rules [based off the spell ebon eyes]which are only guidelines and prone to making severally powerful items dirt cheap. Not a good comparison.

And if your talking using the custom magic item creation rules as a rule for pricing and not a loose guideline.

Using resist energy as a basis. Spell Levelx2,000gpx1.5
2x3x2000x1.5=18,000gp for energy resistance 10.
[6,000gp less then the DMG item]
Spell Levelx2,000gpx1.5[if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5]
*based of the standard 2nd level spell as few rangers would be making items*
If were talking resist energy 30, its 44,000gp for a ring, but using the item creation guidelines
11x2x2000gpx1.5 you have 66,000gp.
It appears the rings follow the pricing guidelines except for the x1.5 for the spells duration being made continuous.
And what about hide in plain sight, that's a hefty class feature not normally available until upper mid level or though a PrC. That's certainly worth something.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-30, 06:38 PM
How do you get Ebon Eyes for 2K do you mean using the custom magic item rules [based off the spell ebon eyes]which are only guidelines and prone to making severally powerful items dirt cheap. Not a good comparison.It's a perfect comparison. Darkvision is overpriced because it's worthless. You know how I get darkvision? I buy a torch for a copper.


And what about hide in plain sight, that's a hefty class feature not normally available until upper mid level or though a PrC. That's certainly worth something.It doesn't work in light, outside during daytime, in an antimagic field, or if you're not in or adjacent to a patch of shadow. The number of times Dark template's HiPS will actively come up during a regular session? Pretty much the number of times you'd be hiding anyway. The only thing it does is obviate the need for cover in a dark area.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-30, 06:56 PM
It's a perfect comparison. Darkvision is overpriced because it's worthless. You know how I get darkvision? I buy a torch for a copper.

And your spotted with ease when trying to sneak around because your carrying a light source. Imagine trying to sneak up on a guard carrying a torch
"Who goes there!"
"How'd you spot me"
"Your carrying a torch in the dead of night how could I not spot you!"

In a dungeon enemies would see the light source moving closer long before you arrived. Darkvision carries a significant advantage of not letting others spot your light source.

And while darkvision won't penetrate magical darkness it will let you see through natural darkness when your magical light source is suppressed by a darkness spell.

But the main idea is you can stay stealthy with darkvison.



It doesn't work in light, outside during daytime, in an antimagic field, or if you're not in or adjacent to a patch of shadow. The number of times Dark template's HiPS will actively come up during a regular session? Pretty much the number of times you'd be hiding anyway. The only thing it does is obviate the need for cover in a dark area.

Anytime your in a dungeon or inside a building your going to have shadows,[which is a good deal of adventures] the light sources are unlikely to be equal to daylight. They'd be equivalent to continual flame or a torch.

The dark creature's hide in plain sight doesn't actually state you need to be adjacent to a shadow either, you simply can't do it while in a light source equivalent to daylight. Which is common enough in D&D. Even if you rule they need to be near a shadow. Most dungeons are going to be enveloped in darkness or lit only by torch light/equivalent leaving plenty of shadows.

If your in a dungeon fighting some monsters they can be staring right at you and you take a step back and hide while their looking strait at you. Hence the name hide in plain sight very useful.

tonberrian
2010-07-30, 07:05 PM
Another point of comparison is continuous duration Girallon's Blessing, which gives you an extra two arms. I can't find my Spell Compendium, but I believe that it's a 3rd level Druid spell. That works out to 3 * 5 * 2000 * 2 (if it's 1 min/level) or 1.5 (if it's 10 min/level).

That's either 60,000 or 45,000, if I've done my math right (unlikely at best, since I'm working from memory), more than double either the previous estimate.

Though I'd say that's overcosted, since I believe Girallon's Blessing adds more than arms.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-30, 07:14 PM
In a dungeon enemies would see the light source moving closer long before you arrived. Darkvision carries a significant advantage of not letting others spot your light source.If you're sneaking around, there are alternatives anyway.


If your in a dungeon fighting some monsters they can be staring right at you and you take a step back and hide while their looking strait at you. Hence the name hide in plain sight very useful....wasting a move action to do so. If you're a sneaky type of character, you're likely relying on Sneak Attack or similar. Not landing a full-attack is painful.


Though I'd say that's overcosted, since I believe Girallon's Blessing adds more than arms.It also adds four claw attacks and rend, and it's 10 min/lev.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-30, 07:15 PM
Another point of comparison is continuous duration Girallon's Blessing, which gives you an extra two arms. I can't find my Spell Compendium, but I believe that it's a 3rd level Druid spell. That works out to 3 * 5 * 2000 * 2 (if it's 1 min/level) or 1.5 (if it's 10 min/level).

That's either 60,000 or 45,000, if I've done my math right (unlikely at best, since I'm working from memory), more than double either the previous estimate.

Though I'd say that's overcosted, since I believe Girallon's Blessing adds more than arms.

Your math is correct, what Girallon's Blessing does is give you four arms which can then make claw attacks and rend if two claws, though they can't use claw attacks in conjunction with weapons.



...wasting a move action to do so. If you're a sneaky type of character, you're likely relying on Sneak Attack or similar. Not landing a full-attack is painful.


If you've just been full-attacked and can't withstand another round of hits, that ability to escape is very useful. Then you might also want to hide in order to move into a flanking position and away from a foe who doesn't have anyone on him to flank with.

If your scouting a head and run into the enemy the ability to try and hide again after being spotted is also useful so you can retreat back to the party without leading them there.

Do you really think 22,000gp is a fair price for all the Collar gives you?

tyckspoon
2010-07-30, 07:19 PM
The dark creature's hide in plain sight doesn't actually state you need to be adjacent to a shadow either, you simply can't do it while in a light source equivalent to daylight. Which is common enough in D&D. Even if you rule they need to be near a shadow. Most dungeons are going to be enveloped in darkness or lit only by torch light/equivalent leaving plenty of shadows.

If your in a dungeon fighting some monsters they can be staring right at you and you take a step back and hide while their looking strait at you. Hence the name hide in plain sight very useful.

Dark HiPS doesn't remove the need for concealment/cover to hide (contrast to Shadowdancer Hide In Plain Sight, which specifically works without anything to hide in or behind.) You can hide in shadows with it, but only if your opponents can't see through dark conditions in some way.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-30, 07:20 PM
If you've just been full-attacked and can't withstand another round of hits, that ability to escape is very useful. Then you might want to hide in order to move into a flanking position and away from a foe who doesn't have anyone on him.

...then you can't hide anyway, unless you feel like provoking an AoO from moving out of a threatened square. You can prevent the AoO if you take a withdraw action, but that takes a full round, so no hiding. You can five foot step and then hide, but then you're only five feet away, out of movement unless you drop your standard too, and the monster can just guess which square you're in.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-30, 07:24 PM
...then you can't hide anyway, unless you feel like provoking an AoO from moving out of a threatened square. You can prevent the AoO if you take a withdraw action, but that takes a full round, so no hiding. You can five foot step and then hide, but then you're only five feet away, out of movement unless you drop your standard too, and the monster can just guess which square you're in.

You can hide in the square your standing then move, hiding is part of an action not an action by its self. If your hide check succeeded they can't see you so no AoO for moving away.


Dark HiPS doesn't remove the need for concealment/cover to hide (contrast to Shadowdancer Hide In Plain Sight, which specifically works without anything to hide in or behind.) You can hide in shadows with it, but only if your opponents can't see through dark conditions in some way.

If you still need cover or concealment its not hide in plain sight, its simply hide while being observed. It states the conditions the ability doesn't function in and that's it.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-30, 07:27 PM
You can hide in the square your standing then move, hiding is part of an action not an action by its self. If your hide check succeeded they can't see you so no AoO for moving away.

Incorrect.


Hide (Dex; Armor Check Penalty)
Check
Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. Itís practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Hide checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large -4, Huge -8, Gargantuan -12, Colossal -16.

You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

If people are observing you, even casually, you canít hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that youíre out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.

If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast.

Sniping
If youíve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

Creating a Diversion to Hide
You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.

See also: epic usages of Hide.

Action
Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesnít take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.


If you still need cover or concealment its not hide in plain sight, it states the conditions the ability doesn't function in and thats it. And really its not hiding in plain sight if you need cover.

As Tyckspoon stated, the Dark template's HiPS ability still requires cover or concealment.

Humans don't say they don't shoot laser beams from their eyes, so they must, right?

No, they don't. An ability only does what it says it does. Dark template's HiPS makes no mention about obviating the need for cover or concealment (nor does any errata (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/TomeMagic_Errata03282006.zip) for the book), therefore it doesn't.

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-30, 07:27 PM
Two extra arms are nice, but not an end all beat all. I would allow it as a warforged feat at first level. He could have it, but it would take his first level feat. That is a big thing for warforged, as they can get a free suit of adamantine plate at level 1 for a feat.

Morph Bark
2010-07-30, 07:37 PM
Read the end of the item entry: there's a Variant line. if you want, you could go ahead and make it a graft instead of an item. Maybe even a docent component.

It requires the sacrifice of a college teacher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docent)? :smallconfused: Do enlighten me.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-30, 07:38 PM
It requires the sacrifice of a college teacher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docent)? :smallconfused: Do enlighten me.

Docent components are intelligent warforged implants. Look in ECS.

Escheton
2010-07-30, 07:49 PM
Ebon eyes doesnt actually give you darkvision. It allows you to ignore magical darkness. If it is naturally dark as well you still don't see anything.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-30, 07:53 PM
Ebon eyes doesnt actually give you darkvision. It allows you to ignore magical darkness. If it is naturally dark as well you still don't see anything.

Torch. One copper piece. Or be a dwarf. Or a half-orc. Or a kobold or goblin or gnoll or duergar or xeph. Or just take the damn template or one of many that give you darkvision or change your type to abberation, construct, dragon, elemental, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, outsider, undead, or vermin.

Marnath
2010-07-30, 10:01 PM
Torch. One copper piece. Or be a dwarf. Or a half-orc. Or a kobold or goblin or gnoll or duergar or xeph. Or just take the damn template or one of many that give you darkvision or change your type to abberation, construct, dragon, elemental, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, outsider, undead, or vermin.

There's really no need to be mean, fax. You guys have both got decent ideas, but you're kinda getting off topic since he's not asking about darkvision.

There's an artifact in the ECS that turns you into a quadruped, maybe you can rework it to give two extra arms instead of two extra legs?