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WarKitty
2010-08-01, 08:33 AM
What defensive items would you give to a level 10 fighter? I'm afraid I've been rather stingy in my items this game due to inexperience (got stuck DM'ing a higher level than I was ready for). I'm noticing most CR-appropriate monsters can hit my fighters almost all the time, and would like to change that up.

Skaven
2010-08-01, 08:36 AM
First stop: Better AC Armour.

(Is he a sword+board? if so, shield here)

Second stop: Ring of protection.

Third stop: Amulet of Natural Armour (I find I prefer the con amulet on my fighters).

Boci
2010-08-01, 08:43 AM
Miss chance is generally superior to extra AC at level 10 (cloak of concealment I think its called?), but using the MiC rules for combining magical affects can help boost your AC by paying a small amount of gold for a multiple +1's. Alternativly embrace your low AC and take robilar gambit in two levels, but you might not want to do that with your fighter.

WarKitty
2010-08-01, 08:44 AM
First stop: Better AC Armour.

(Is he a sword+board? if so, shield here)

Second stop: Ring of protection.

Third stop: Amulet of Natural Armour (I find I prefer the con amulet on my fighters).

We have 2...one sword/board, one TWF. TWF is an optimizer and outpaces the party sorcerer, sword/board is the opposite end of the spectrum and can't manage to hit most things.


Miss chance is generally superior to extra AC at level 10 (cloak of concealment I think its called?), but using the MiC rules for combining magical affects can help boost your AC by paying a small amount of gold for a multiple +1's. Alternativly embrace your low AC and take robilar gambit in two levels, but you might not want to do that with your fighter.

In case it wasn't clear I'm the DM.

Boci
2010-08-01, 08:49 AM
In case it wasn't clear I'm the DM.

Okay then, same advice: give him a cloak of concealment (or however you call it) and a wizard who can enchant his other magical items with some +1's to AC (could be the wizard's Guild form of payment for completing an assigment).

Vizzerdrix
2010-08-01, 09:05 AM
Free template? It only takes a Con of 20 to start picking up DR/- (And other types of DR can be had even easier).

faceroll
2010-08-01, 09:10 AM
An animated mithral tower shield is pretty nice.

The fighters should be in a mithral chain shirt, breastplate, or full plate, given their dex score. Mithral mechanus gear, from manual of the planes, is 10 AC and max dex 2. Pretty awesome stuff.

Defending armor spikes can boost their AC, though it's rather expensive if you don't have someone cast greater magic weapon on them. Only get them when you can't find another +1 AC for under 8,000 gp.

I would say between mithral armor, a ring of prot +1, and a total of +3 on their actual armor, you should see an increase of 5 to their AC.

KillianHawkeye
2010-08-01, 09:30 AM
mechanus gear, from manual of the planes

Actually from Planar Handbook.

faceroll
2010-08-01, 09:47 AM
Actually from Planar Handbook.

Oh, the other one. Is that the 3.5 one that is better?

KillianHawkeye
2010-08-01, 11:49 AM
Oh, the other one. Is that the 3.5 one that is better?

Yes, that's the 3.5 one. I wouldn't say that it's better exactly. Manual of the Planes has more descriptions about various locations, etc. It's more of a DM's book, while Planar Handbook has a lot more content for players and less environmental info. As for the example at hand, Manual of the Planes has a couple races & prestige classes, but no equipment (unlike Planar Handbook).

Machiavellian
2010-08-01, 12:16 PM
The sword and board guy should pick up Dwarven Mountain Plate which is from Races of Stone. Sure, you can only move 10ft/round, but its worth it.

KillianHawkeye
2010-08-01, 12:22 PM
The sword and board guy should pick up Dwarven Mountain Plate which is from Races of Stone. Sure, you can only move 10ft/round, but its worth it.

Sounds good for a Dwarven Defender, who's not supposed to move anyway. :smallamused:

lsfreak
2010-08-01, 12:27 PM
For the sword-and-board hitting people: Two of the easiest ways of getting decent +hit are a one-level dip in cleric, dropping the domains for Law Devotion and one other (Protection would fit the character, probably). A one-level dip in Crusader gets a stance, a few half-decent maneuvers, and the ability to use a Discipline weapon (+3hit, attune it to the discipline of whatever stance he chooses).

Demons_eye
2010-08-01, 12:57 PM
Because how can you be unhappy with one of these? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070212a)

wick
2010-08-01, 01:41 PM
The TWF is out hitting the sword and board? How? the S&B guy must have a terrible build or very bad stats. The TWF guy can cut his penalties to hit to almost zero with 3 or 4 feats but a straight fighter can use those feats to add bonuses. Basically the TWF starts off with a deficit to hit or in the hole.

Boci
2010-08-01, 02:12 PM
The TWF is out hitting the sword and board? How? the S&B guy must have a terrible build or very bad stats. The TWF guy can cut his penalties to hit to almost zero with 3 or 4 feats but a straight fighter can use those feats to add bonuses. Basically the TWF starts off with a deficit to hit or in the hole.

Crit fishing with a build that gets good stuff from crits? Like the feat that goves you a chance to make an enemy shaken. Plus the TWF may have a lower to hit, but he has more attack that do roughly equal damage to the S&B.

Prodan
2010-08-01, 02:13 PM
Because how can you be unhappy with one of these? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070212a)

Now fix a banner to your back and lead a charge "FOR THE EMPRAH!!!!!"

Eldariel
2010-08-01, 02:18 PM
Mithril Mechanus Gear [PlH] is the best AC base armor for a low-Dex Fighter. That said, Ring of Blinking or Displacement [MiC] Armor works for the 50% miss chance against many opponents.

Easy AC boosts:
- Ring of Pro
- Amulet of NA
- Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone (5.5 for +1 Insight)
- Boots of Speed (12k for +1 Untyped when using Haste)

And of course, shield & armor enhancements (tho Cleric's Magic Vestment is infinitely more convenient and cheaper).

Frosty
2010-08-01, 02:27 PM
Miss chance, miss chance, miss chance for the TW fighter. Expensive shield and armor for the SnB fighter. Also have him take feats like shield ward for extra goodies.

In order for the SnB fighter to hit stuff,make sure he has good strength I guess. Belt of giant strength? Someone needs to cast Greater Magic Weapon on his sword too. Inspire Courage would help if there's a bard in the group. If he wants to actually do damage, have him start taking Warblade or Crusader from now on.

Andion Isurand
2010-08-01, 02:31 PM
You could also include artificers in your setting, and then have one of the PCs make a knowledge check to remember that they can withdraw the life force (experence) put into magic items (via retain essence) and craft others in their place.

Later on after getting any randomly rolled treasure, the group can seek out an artificer who uses Retain Essence as a form of business and have the magic drained form items they don't want and put into the creation of new items they they do want, paying gold for materials and labor... minus the cost that the mundane leavings of the old item provide.

ericgrau
2010-08-01, 02:35 PM
Miss chance is generally superior to extra AC at level 10 (cloak of concealment I think its called?), but using the MiC rules for combining magical affects can help boost your AC by paying a small amount of gold for a multiple +1's. Alternativly embrace your low AC and take robilar gambit in two levels, but you might not want to do that with your fighter.

Cloak of minor displacement gives you 20% for almost half your WBL. Armor gives you 75% for about the same or a little less. Too lazy to do the math on mithril right now, but it's probably more expensive than magical enhancements at his level or even in the near future.

Prodan
2010-08-01, 02:42 PM
Cloak protects you better from Enervation than AC boosts.

ericgrau
2010-08-01, 02:46 PM
And death ward is better than that measly 20%, but who cares. Touch AC gives almost as much and isn't just for a corner case. You can't afford to blow half your wealth on each of 50 corner cases just to get a couple percent boost versus a more general approach.

Boci
2010-08-01, 02:51 PM
Death ward protects you better than a cloak, probably other magic items too. But who really cares about either? We're talking about getting a 20% less than 5% of the time. And the normal boost to touch AC gives you over 15%. So we're talking a 2-4% boost for a corner case. Whoop-dee-doo. You can't afford to blow half your wealth on each of the 50 other things you might face instead, especially for a piddly bonus.

Okay I get 20% because that is the miss chance for a cloak, but where are you getting all the other numbers?

ericgrau
2010-08-01, 02:51 PM
5% per +1 touch AC. But the original ray doesn't hit 100% of the time. Maybe 90%. So 15% is 16-17% of the actual hits.

Machiavellian
2010-08-01, 03:01 PM
If this fighter's a dwarf, I have the ULTIMATE floating wall:

Clockwork Mountain Plate
dual wield Tower Shields
Ride a magic carpet
be a Dwarven Defender

with the magic carpet, he can move whilst in the defensive stance. No really.

Boci
2010-08-01, 03:03 PM
5% per +1 touch AC. But the original ray doesn't hit 100% of the time. Maybe 90%. So 15% is 16-17% of the actual hits.

Well a cloak is 24k. What is the maximum amount of AC you can get with that? 12, assuming you can find 12 items that each grant +1 to AC (highly unlikely, and even then not 75% but 65% using your maths, which I must admit I do not get)). I will ignore the slots issue since I am pretty sure the combination rules in MiC render that a non-issue, so the only real questions are how many items can you find that grant +1 AC, and how of that will also apply to flatfooted and (more importantly) touch AC?

Eldariel
2010-08-01, 03:13 PM
Clockwork Mountain Plate

Mechanus Gear tends to be better, Mithril grants the highest AC bonus.


dual wield Tower Shields

Shield-bonuses don't stack. Defending weapons, on the other hand, do by apparent RAW so look there.


Ride a magic carpet
be a Dwarven Defender

with the magic carpet, he can move whilst in the defensive stance. No really.

Still don't find it makes Defender worth it.

Andion Isurand
2010-08-01, 03:27 PM
I would recommend the Broadblade Shortsword (Complete Adventurer) if you are using weapon groups in your campaign and the fighter goes for exotic light blades and does any kind of defensive fighting. Grants +2 AC when you fight defensively or take a -2 penalty for Combat Expertise.


The sword and board guy should pick up Dwarven Mountain Plate which is from Races of Stone. Sure, you can only move 10ft/round, but its worth it.

Heh, well, you could try this and move at normal heavy armor speed...

Thaalud Stone Armor: heavy armor; 2,800 gp;
armor bonus +12; max Dex +0; check penalty
8; AF 40%; 180 lb.

from Anauroch the Empire of Shade

Machiavellian
2010-08-01, 03:36 PM
Mechanus Gear tends to be better, Mithril grants the highest AC bonus.



Shield-bonuses don't stack. Defending weapons, on the other hand, do by apparent RAW so look there.



Still don't find it makes Defender worth it.

1. I picked Mountain Plate because it's Exotic Armor and has an insane AC bonus

2. it's for the look. wcs, have an animated shield and a defending weapon, as well as the tower shield

3. So being able to block attacks at will isn't worth it? and being able to thumb your nose at the RAW?

Boci
2010-08-01, 03:38 PM
3. So being able to block attacks at will isn't worth it? and being able to thumb your nose at the RAW?

You're able to block attacks by not attacking yourself, hello turtle, and the dwarven defender only gives you a defensive equivilant to range with an unneeded restrictive aspect added. Even if the problem of it not being able to move is solved, it is still pretty weak.

ericgrau
2010-08-01, 03:44 PM
by not attacking yourself
This is a myth, the dwarven defender is never forced to stop attacking, even for a moment. He merely loses his defensive stance and gets -2 str if he moves. The other benefits of the class are still nice even without the stance. Plus many rooms aren't wider than his reach and you can ignore the stance the rest of the time. Heck dip 1 level for the +1 passive AC, will save boost, etc. Maybe there are other options too and it's not like the class is spectacular, but the class is a viable option.

\/ Throwers in general tend to be subpar around level 10, so he better get a good PrC for this. A reach weapon is a typical way to handle it in larger rooms, or simply not using the stance in larger rooms as there are the other above benefits too.

Prodan
2010-08-01, 03:45 PM
A DD thrower might work ok.

Eldariel
2010-08-01, 03:47 PM
1. I picked Mountain Plate because it's Exotic Armor and has an insane AC bonus

Mechanus Gear is an ordinary armor with the same armor bonus and a penalty Dwarves ignore.


2. it's for the look. wcs, have an animated shield and a defending weapon, as well as the tower shield

For best AC? Animated Tower Shield, two defending weapons and defending armor spikes.


3. So being able to block attacks at will isn't worth it? and being able to thumb your nose at the RAW?

You can't block attacks at will. You're also not worth hitting. You're waste of space that way. Enemies just ignore you and then eventually, when your party is dead, sunder your crap or break your mind or AoE you or do something far more unpleasant. Or just leave you there aware that your uselessness just caused party death.

AC on the levels where you can pump it for real is pretty weak anyways; on higher levels, touch AC & saves tend to protect against far more important attacks (ones that insta-gib you). And a Dwarven Defender still has trouble pumping AC high enough to avoid someone who really wants to hit you. Casters can still get high enough To Hit as can monsters (Big T called).

But most importantly, D&D is a party game. A tank who doesn't pose a threat and can't in any way affect opponents' action options cannot actually tank except in corridors where enemy cannot pass you and doesn't have burrow, teleport or any such.

Boci
2010-08-01, 03:58 PM
This is a myth, the dwarven defender is never forced to stop attacking, even for a moment.

They also do not have the ability to block attacks at will, which was what I was addressing. I assume he intended to use tower shield's full cover, which does prevent you from attacking.


He merely loses his defensive stance and gets -2 str if he moves.

Fatigued is a bit worse than that.



A reach weapon is a typical way to handle it in larger rooms,

And pray the enemy is not intelligent enough to just leave the battle area.

Navigator
2010-08-01, 04:19 PM
WBL for a 10th-level PC is 49,000g. Let's say you want to spend half, so 24,500g.

Armor
Unless he has an unusually high Dexterity, you're probably going to settle on full-plate or mithral breastplate. Give this a +2 enhancement.

Shield
Heavy Steel Shield +2, or Ghostward (MIC11) Heavy Steel Shield +1 if you're concerned about touch attacks. Alternatively, you could pick up Parrying Shield, which is a favorite of mine.

Other
Ring of Protection +1, Cloak of Resistance +2.

Practically, there isn't a great deal more you can do as far as items go, but he can probably stand to gain a great deal by rethinking his feat selection.

What he may want to do is pick a bludgeoning weapon, and take the track up to Melee Weapon Mastery (bludgeoning), which will apply to shield slams. Shield slams are good because he will gain an extra attack, it has great synergy with bludgeoning weapons, and there are a few ways to give him great utility with the slams such as tripping. Since he has the feats to spare on it, have him look into the feat tree for shields in PHB2.

Also, I strongly recommend Person_Man's guide to melee combos, which covers this very well. Unfortunately, I don't have a link handy, but shouldn't be hard to find by searching for it.

Awnetu
2010-08-01, 04:28 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026

Person_Mans guide to melee combos

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123630

Person_Mans guide to Shields.

WarKitty
2010-08-01, 09:06 PM
Wow lots more responses here than I expected. The TWF is pretty high dex, sword/board not so much. TWF is also the party optimizer and probably does NOT need too much more help. Sword/board...has no patience with optimization whatsoever, or really with looking through different options past "I attack it." Thinking shadow-dancer base for TWF, dwarven defender type for sword/board since he doesn't move anyways. Since I *am* the dm any class problems can be worked around.

(Clarification: both are gestalt fighter/barbarian, in my world prestige classes start at level 11 and are custom creations between the player and the DM. We have agreed to not level for a while however due to various RL and in-game constraints.)

WeeFreeMen
2010-08-01, 09:16 PM
Since he is a fighter, he prolly has some feats to spare. Assuming the following book is allowed.

A Defensive Fighter can use "Combat Focus" feats to great effect.
+X to opposing Str checks for Trip, Disarm, Bullrush, etc.
Fast-Healing X, based off how many focus feats you have.
and some others.

Its really a rather nice chain, altho obviously sub-optimal. However, he is a fighter so Optimization isn't a strong point to start.
He should have fun with it, also, focusing on Intimidating is also a good way to grab aggro and is fun for RP, since he can spout insults at the enemy to Demoralize them.
There is many people and a handbook that can tell you how to optimize his Fear.

I played a similar character in one of my first few campaigns, it was really fun to just say "No!" To the Bull-Rushing Minotaur. (There is also a ToB stance he can grab via Martial Stance feat that grants a stack-able +10 to Opposing Str checks and DR 2/- he just cant move.

A chain with reach is nice for him, Knockdown and its associate feats are nice for Shutdown and Control. Sword and Board is really nice with Disarm tho, unless hes fighting monstrous.

I personally feel that Intimidate + the Focus Feats should be more than enough for him, let alone fun.

Anyway, best of luck.
(PS: Yes there is grammar and spelling issues, Deal with it. Im tired.)

aeauseth
2010-08-02, 05:35 PM
This Armor Class Guide (http://aaronwiki.us/index.php?title=Armor_Class_Guide) puts a level 10 fighter at AC 30 (+11 Full plate+3, +5 Shield+3, +1 Dex, +1 Dodge, +1 Deflection, +1 Natural). This is a typical fighter spending 50% wealth on armor. Nothing fancy here, just using the recommendations of WoTC.