PDA

View Full Version : Gestalting Totemist/Dragonmark Heir



Draxar
2010-08-02, 05:21 PM
Right, so in a previous thread I was contemplating gestalting with an unbodied (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm) in the now 2 player post-apocalyptic Eberron game I'm in, but then my DM asked me to not play something that's incorporeal, as that makes balancing stuff against the party becomes much harder.

So, after some consideration, I've decided to go for another concept I had in the pipeline, which was turned down before as it'd mess with the setup too much, but which is now acceptable.

The Transporter.

Essentially a House Orien heir, with a greater Mark, and probably the various add-on extra dragonmark powers (Dragonmark Prodigy, Dragonmark Adept and Dragonmark Visionary). When we weren't playing Gestalt, I wasn't sure how exactly I was going to do damage in combat with him, whereas now he's gestalt I can leave that to the other side of the gestalt.

Essentially the idea behind him is that he's a scout, a trailblazer House Orien can have people teleporting between areas they know with some level of ease, it takes a Siberys mark to go somewhere you don't know, and even then you need some kind of reasonable description. So this is a guy whose job is to get to wherever the hell it is, teleport back, then teleport more people to the place so that they can set up a base there and/or teleport yet more people there.

So, I was debating what to gestalt with this. After some consideration, I'm leaning relatively strongly towards Totemist I've wanted to try Incarnum for some time, the wilderness-y element fits the character, the toolbox nature will fit the character, and the attacks from it should go well with his manuverability.

Currently the build (at 11th level) is down the one side, pure Totemist, down the other side, 4 levels of something, 5 levels of Dragonmark Heir, then 2 levels of Blade of Orien. The feats being Least Dragonmark and Favoured In House at 1, Dragonmark Prodigy at 3, Dragonmark Adept at 6th, and Split Chakra (Totem) at 9th. I'm debating asking if I can swap Favoured In House for something else if the apocalyptic nature of the world is going to me getting largely **** all from it.

The main issue I'm having is what to put in those four levels. I'm debating between Fighter (for feats for beating stuff up with my Totemist claws/whatever), and Warlock (for more toolbox powers, and for a handy constant ranged damage source).

But neither of those really feels like it fits the character. Factotum could work, but I've done it before, and again, it doesn't feel appropriate. Ranger seems appropriate in fluff... but it's class features do sweet fanny adams for what I'm wanting to do, both in terms of combat, and beyond that the only appropriate thing is track, and I can get that with a soulmeld.

So, can people suggest anything that might fit beter? I'm after flavour more than pure power. Something useful, toolboxy, and which can get by with 4 levels (or possibly 5-6 if a very good case is made for such)

I'm open to homebrew, I'm also open to suggestions to completely change the build, as long as it's not a "Not powerful enough, take hellfire warlock" or somesuch that's over-munchkined and/or ignores the theme of the character.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-02, 05:27 PM
Have you considered the binder? They fit well with incarnum characters.

Eldan
2010-08-02, 05:30 PM
How about Scout? THat gives you both wilderness and mobility.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-02, 05:36 PM
Also I have had great fun with a Wilderness Feat Rogue. I got special DM dispensation that the Feat part of Feat Rogue lets me qualify for Fighter ACFs, so I'm really a Wilderness Dungeoncrasher Feat Rogue. Could be worth it, (skill points, mobility, dungeoncrashing...) but ymmv.

Keld Denar
2010-08-02, 05:57 PM
You could splash a little Incarnate on the non-Totemist side. That would net you more Essentia, a couple of other melds (omg Felmist Robe) and a couple other toys.

Other than that, I'd highly recommend maxing out Blade of Orien. Its a pretty sweet PrC, and the shadow pounce ability at 10 is kinda fun with Phase Cloak or Blink Shirt, IF you stretch the ability a fair bit. As written, it only works with the Dragonmark teleports you make as a move action, but in reality it should work with any manipulation of astral travel. That makes for a really awesome type *banf* beat stick, especially if you use some of your Totemist abilities to get good at grappling.

Draxar
2010-08-02, 06:23 PM
How about Scout? THat gives you both wilderness and mobility.

However, 4 levels of it gets me stuff that's nice, but is mostly either covered by incarnum and/or dragonmark, or that don't synergise too well with the binder the movement required for Skirmish doesn't really work with the four girallion armed monstrosity I see myself being.


Have you considered the binder? They fit well with incarnum characters.

It's a possibility. I looked at the book, and there's quite a few nice toolboxy powers that would fill gaps in my soulmelding. And if I took a single level more (5 levels binder), I could get access to the healing vestige, which would be damn handy.

However, having my character be aware of and using two unusual types of magic at once, both taking stuff into his body, might be hard to get past my DM. Though on the other hand, could work with the character, him seeing himself as almost a passenger at times, letting other beings drive, to some degree.


Also I have had great fun with a Wilderness Feat Rogue. I got special DM dispensation that the Feat part of Feat Rogue lets me qualify for Fighter ACFs, so I'm really a Wilderness Dungeoncrasher Feat Rogue. Could be worth it, (skill points, mobility, dungeoncrashing...) but ymmv.

I can be fairly sure I won't get that dispensation. Dungeoncrashing not really appropriate to the character. Extra skill points would be nice, but not entirely needed I can use meldshaping to buff many skills as needed. Mechancially, the Wilderness eleement wouldn't add very much, as I already have those skills as class skills through Totemist.

And the big issue is the same as the Fighter what do I use those bonus feats for? I'm not sure.

Thanks for the suggestions, more welcomed.

Draxar
2010-08-02, 06:29 PM
You could splash a little Incarnate on the non-Totemist side. That would net you more Essentia, a couple of other melds (omg Felmist Robe) and a couple other toys.

Essentia gained on two sides simultaneously is likely to be recorded seperately, in the same way that spells are, or power points. Otherwise that would get very silly with Psionics very quickly, and somewhat silly with Incarnum.


Other than that, I'd highly recommend maxing out Blade of Orien.

I intend to as the character goes on, but to do it from the get-go would require more feats than I have I want the base dragomark abilities and the secondary ones (prodigy/adept/visionary), and I can only take one prestige class at a time.


Its a pretty sweet PrC, and the shadow pounce ability at 10 is kinda fun with Phase Cloak or Blink Shirt, IF you stretch the ability a fair bit. As written, it only works with the Dragonmark teleports you make as a move action, but in reality it should work with any manipulation of astral travel. That makes for a really awesome type *banf* beat stick, especially if you use some of your Totemist abilities to get good at grappling.

I disagree with it working with any form of astral travel. It's a dragonmark based ability that works with the dragonmark transporting.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-02, 06:29 PM
And the big issue is the same as the Fighter what do I use those bonus feats for? I'm not sure.

Multiattack and Improved Multiattack? You are going to have a bunch of natural weapons as a totemist. A bunch. Also consider Barbarian with the PHB-II Berserker Rage ACF, or the UA Whirling Frenzy ACF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ), or the Cityscape Ferocity ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). All three are still good in small doses.

Hell, if you really feel up for it, you could go PHB-II Shapeshift Druid. Predator Form is great on a totemist, and five levels of druid gets you lion's charge, girallon's blessing, charge of the triceratops, and/or bite of the wererat. Different DM of mine let me use the UA Wildshape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger), and then let me use the Shapeshift stuff on it. Very primal, pretty awesome.

Draxar
2010-08-02, 06:40 PM
Multiattack and Improved Multiattack? You are going to have a bunch of natural weapons as a totemist. A bunch.

As far as I can see, those aren't Fighter feats, thus can't take 'em with that.


Also consider Barbarian with the PHB-II Berserker Rage ACF, or the UA Whirling Frenzy ACF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ), or the Cityscape Ferocity ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). All three are still good in small doses.

Character doesn't feel like a rager. And I'd probably go vanilla barbarian if I went it at all.


Hell, if you really feel up for it, you could go PHB-II Shapeshift Druid. Predator Form is great on a totemist, and five levels of druid gets you lion's charge, girallon's blessing, charge of the triceratops, and/or bite of the wererat.

I've been asked to steer clear of shapeshifting, though that may mean true wildshape rather than shapeshift druid style. I'd find a wolf with Girallion arms a bit weird and unthematic it could maybe work with the druid levels entirely replacing the totemist, but stacking the two doesn't feel right.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-02, 06:42 PM
Where're you seeing "wolf"? "Predator form" is vague intentionally: your shape just has to be big, strong, and bite things.

Draxar
2010-08-03, 05:10 AM
Where're you seeing "wolf"? "Predator form" is vague intentionally: your shape just has to be big, strong, and bite things.

And be an animal not a half animal, half man thing.

Either way, the combination doesn't really appeal.

Greenish
2010-08-03, 06:30 AM
Why Dragonmark Heir 5? It's booooring. Take Blade of Orien 10, get two full attacks a round.

Draxar
2010-08-03, 06:42 AM
Why Dragonmark Heir 5? It's booooring.

Because Dragonmark Heir 5, Blade of Orien 2, plus Dragonmark Prodigy and Dragonmark Adept means I can:

Dimension Leap 5 times a day
Expeditiously Retreat 3 times a day
Dark Way 3 times a day
Dimension Door 3 times a day
Phantom Steed 2 times a day
Baleful Transposition or Swift Fly 2 times a day.
And teleport twice a day (though I'd rather teleport once, Overland Flight once)

The character isn't about pinging around in combat, he's about getting places. He enables the group he's with to use all sorts of guerilla-style pop in, pop out tactics.


Take Blade of Orien 10, get two full attacks a round.

That's what I'd call rules abuse, munchkining up. And as I said in the OP, 'm after flavour more than pure power. and I'm also open to suggestions to completely change the build, as long as it's not a "Not powerful enough, take hellfire warlock" or somesuch that's over-munchkined and/or ignores the theme of the character.

Keld Denar
2010-08-03, 09:03 AM
Be careful swinging around the M word...most folks around here take offense to that. This is an internet messageboard. You asked for advise, you got advise. Take it or leave it. No need for name calling...

Draxar
2010-08-03, 09:43 AM
Be careful swinging around the M word...most folks around here take offense to that. This is an internet messageboard. You asked for advise, you got advise. Take it or leave it. No need for name calling...

Well, firstly, I do think that anything that works around the idea of getting two full attacks a round is probably going against RAI.

Secondly I was trying to emphasise that pure power isn't so much what I'm after, as I said in the OP.

Rather than merely 'take it or leave it', I'd rather explain my position, why I don't want to go for certain suggestions, discuss my options, and then hopefully get some suggestions that fit better with what I'm after.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-03, 09:47 AM
With all that teleportation, have you looked at Wayfarer Guide?

Draxar
2010-08-03, 10:20 AM
With all that teleportation, have you looked at Wayfarer Guide?

Considering it, but it would require not taking Blade of Orien which, while a lesser priority than Dragomark Heir, is still a nice class. I'll probably take it for the last few levels before 20, when I've finished Blade of Orien.

The main question is what to put in the first four levels. Currently my thoughts are Fighter, Scout, Binder, Warlock as options. And leaning more towards Binder and Warlock in my actual preferences, but considering them less likely to be approved by my DM.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-03, 10:27 AM
Well, if you want to be mobility-happy, you could go with warlock and make judicious use of flee the scene and fell flight. Or you could go with wizard/sorcerer and use baleful transposition, benign transposition, and wayfarer's step (probably the former, as a conjurer, and get the PHB-II Abrupt Jaunt ACF). You could even go shadowcaster and use flicker, one of the coolest teleportation spells ever.

Person_Man
2010-08-03, 11:44 AM
Because Dragonmark Heir 5, Blade of Orien 2, plus Dragonmark Prodigy and Dragonmark Adept means I can:

Dimension Leap 5 times a day
Expeditiously Retreat 3 times a day
Dark Way 3 times a day
Dimension Door 3 times a day
Phantom Steed 2 times a day
Baleful Transposition or Swift Fly 2 times a day.
And teleport twice a day (though I'd rather teleport once, Overland Flight once)

The character isn't about pinging around in combat, he's about getting places. He enables the group he's with to use all sorts of guerilla-style pop in, pop out tactics.

I also think that Dragonmark Heir is garbage. Most of those spell-like abilities can be duplicated with low level wands via UMD (easy to boost with soulmelds). Also, since this is a gestalt build, there's no reason you couldn't load up one side as a caster to do all of those things as a Totemist 11//Wizard or Psion.

You might also want to consider:

Dragonborn or Raptorian race: Fly speed.
Duskling race: Improved base land speed if you invest essentia in it.
Blink Shirt (Totemist) soulmeld: Dimension Door at will as a standard action. If bound to your Totem chakra, it's only a move action.
Kraken Mantle (Totemist) soulmeld: Swim speed, at will.
Pegasus Cloak (Totemist) soulmeld: Feather fall, bonus to Jump check. When bound to your shoulder's or totem it grants the ability to fly (shoulders is better), with a speed based on the essentia invested.
Manticore Belt (Totemist) soulmeld: When bound to waist, grants Fly speed and Flyby Attack.
Airstep Sandals (Incarnate) souldmeld: Fly as a Move Action.
Cerulean Sandals (Incarnate) soulmeld: Increases base land speed when you invest essentia in it.
Astral Vembraces (Incarnate) soulmeld: When bound to arms, grants your choice of Astral Construct Menu A bonuses, included Fly Speed 20.
Tabard of Nimbral Herald magic item: Fly once a day for 5 minutes. 5,400 gp, Champions of Valor pg 69.
Cloak of Mysterious Emergence: Dimension Door 3 times per day. 13,000 gp, Dragon Magic pg 93.
Collar of Umbral Metamophosis: Gives you the Dark template, which gives you Hide in Plain Site, a boost to your speed, and various bonuses. 10,800 gp or 22,000 for continuous effect. Tome of Magic pg 156.
Haures vestige: Your movement (and only your movement) is incorporeal (and thus ignores terrain, barriers, AoO, walls, etc). Also grants the uber continuous supernatural Mind Blank and at will Major Image (once every 5 rounds).
Dantalion vestige: Another source of Dimension Door, which can be done as a Move action if you take the Scion of Dantalion PrC. Also grants the highly useful Awe of Dantalion, which prevents enemies from attacking you for 1 round, plus Read Thoughts and a useful Daze effect.
Travel Devotion feat: Free movement every round for 1 minute. Must burn Turn/Rebuke undead use to activate.
Tenebrous vestige: Unlimited Turn/Rebuke Undead once every 5 rounds. Useful for fueling Devotion feats. Also grants you undead-ish abilities, opening up a Lord of the Uttercold combo if you want it.
Hustle psionic power: Move action as a Swift Action.
Psionic Dimension Door power: Dimension Door. Can be done as a Move Action.
Anklet of Translocation: Dim Door as a Swift Action (1 per day IIRC). Magic Item Compendium.
Midnight Augmentation feat: Invest essentia to reduce the power point cost to augment one power. (Like Psionic Dimension Door, or Claws of the Beast) Magic of Incarnum pg 38.


I would go with Human Totemist 11//Rogue 1/Binder 10, with Able Learner.

Draxar
2010-08-03, 02:34 PM
Well, if you want to be mobility-happy, you could go with warlock and make judicious use of flee the scene and fell flight.

Possibly, though at that point it would be more likely to be instead of totemist, or giving up Dragomark Heir. It's no so much about 'mobility happy' it's about:


The Transporter.

Essentially a House Orien heir, with a greater Mark, and probably the various add-on extra dragonmark powers (Dragonmark Prodigy, Dragonmark Adept and Dragonmark Visionary)....

The idea behind him is that he's a scout, a trailblazer House Orien can have people teleporting between areas they know with some level of ease, it takes a Siberys mark to go somewhere you don't know, and even then you need some kind of reasonable description. So this is a guy whose job is to get to wherever the hell it is, teleport back, then teleport more people to the place so that they can set up a base there and/or teleport yet more people there.

It's about how to do that in a practical and interesting fashion without being too overpowered.


Or you could go with wizard/sorcerer and use baleful transposition, benign transposition, and wayfarer's step (probably the former, as a conjurer, and get the PHB-II Abrupt Jaunt ACF). You could even go shadowcaster and use flicker, one of the coolest teleportation spells ever.[/quote]

Baleful and benign transposition have their uses, but they're not so much what I'm focusing on. Shadowcaster would require an obsession with shadow I don't see the character as possessing.


I also think that Dragonmark Heir is garbage. Most of those spell-like abilities can be duplicated with low level wands via UMD (easy to boost with soulmelds). Also, since this is a gestalt build, there's no reason you couldn't load up one side as a caster to do all of those things as a Totemist 11//Wizard or Psion.

However, that does rather entirely destroy the "Member of house Orien who uses his Dragomarks to get places and get back again" concept. Yes, the build could be more powerful. If I make it too powerful, it will strongly overshadow the other player, who doesn't really optimise in terms of character creation or in play, beyond a very basic level.


You might also want to consider:

Dragonborn or Raptorian race: Fly speed.
Duskling race: Improved base land speed if you invest essentia in it.

Can't do Dragonmarked Heir with these, thus not really appropriate. This isn't just a "I want to move fast/be manuverable" build. This is a "I want to fulfil this particular role within a Dragonmarked house' build.


Blink Shirt (Totemist) soulmeld: Dimension Door at will as a standard action. If bound to your Totem chakra, it's only a move action.
Kraken Mantle (Totemist) soulmeld: Swim speed, at will.
Pegasus Cloak (Totemist) soulmeld: Feather fall, bonus to Jump check. When bound to your shoulder's or totem it grants the ability to fly (shoulders is better), with a speed based on the essentia invested.
Manticore Belt (Totemist) soulmeld: When bound to waist, grants Fly speed and Flyby Attack.
Airstep Sandals (Incarnate) souldmeld: Fly as a Move Action.
Cerulean Sandals (Incarnate) soulmeld: Increases base land speed when you invest essentia in it.
Astral Vembraces (Incarnate) soulmeld: When bound to arms, grants your choice of Astral Construct Menu A bonuses, included Fly Speed 20.

I'm aware of the soulmelds. And Incarnate really doesn't fit the character (I intended to mention that earlier but forgot) he's not passionately committed to a particuar alignment, therefore going Incarnate really wouldn't be appropriate for him.




Tabard of Nimbral Herald magic item: Fly once a day for 5 minutes. 5,400 gp, Champions of Valor pg 69.
Cloak of Mysterious Emergence: Dimension Door 3 times per day. 13,000 gp, Dragon Magic pg 93.
Collar of Umbral Metamophosis: Gives you the Dark template, which gives you Hide in Plain Site, a boost to your speed, and various bonuses. 10,800 gp or 22,000 for continuous effect. Tome of Magic pg 156.
Haures vestige: Your movement (and only your movement) is incorporeal (and thus ignores terrain, barriers, AoO, walls, etc). Also grants the uber continuous supernatural Mind Blank and at will Major Image (once every 5 rounds).
Dantalion vestige: Another source of Dimension Door, which can be done as a Move action if you take the Scion of Dantalion PrC. Also grants the highly useful Awe of Dantalion, which prevents enemies from attacking you for 1 round, plus Read Thoughts and a useful Daze effect.

It's not just about "Oooh, move fast!"


Travel Devotion feat: Free movement every round for 1 minute. Must burn Turn/Rebuke undead use to activate.
Tenebrous vestige: Unlimited Turn/Rebuke Undead once every 5 rounds. Useful for fueling Devotion feats. Also grants you undead-ish abilities, opening up a Lord of the Uttercold combo if you want it.

Actually you only need to burn Turn/Rebuke uses to use it beyond the first use each day. It's not entirely clear to me whether Tenebrous gives you the same number of uses as a cleric of your level, or one every five rounds, with no total limit on uses if it's the latter, then it's useless for powering Travel Devotion, as that requires you to expend two turn uses, and you never have two at once.

A Lord of the Uttercold combo wouldn't fit with the character concept at all.


Hustle psionic power: Move action as a Swift Action.
Psionic Dimension Door power: Dimension Door. Can be done as a Move Action.
Anklet of Translocation: Dim Door as a Swift Action (1 per day IIRC). Magic Item Compendium.

See 'Not all about speed'. Also, I am aware there are various teleportation and speed things out there, what I'm mostly after is "I have this gap in my build (level 1-4 prior to taking Dragonmark Heir), can people suggest something useful to put in that gap, or another builld which still fits with the character concept.


[LIST] Midnight Augmentation feat: Invest essentia to reduce the power point cost to augment one power. (Like Psionic Dimension Door, or Claws of the Beast) Magic of Incarnum pg 38.


Now that suggestion's actually useful. Depending on costs and limits, that could bring something down to a repeatedly useable level, though locking Essentia up all day in it would be annoying.

Edit: And having looked at the feat, it would require a lot of investment in Psionics, and several feats to get the degree to which you can augment the power to a reasonable level.


I would go with Human Totemist 11//Rogue 1/Binder 10, with Able Learner.

Able learner because? Also, I've been asked to avoid dips, given that it's gestalt and they're far less neccessary.

Your advice isn't awful, it's just that most of it doesn't fit with the build I want to do with this character.

I could accept getting rid of Dragonmarked Heir, if I really liked what I was replacing it with, but at that point I will be taking the Least, Lesser and Greater Dragonmark feats (eating up over half my feat chocies). Because that's the concept.

Keld Denar
2010-08-03, 02:49 PM
I'm aware of the soulmelds. And Incarnate really doesn't fit the character (I intended to mention that earlier but forgot) he's not passionately committed to a particuar alignment, therefore going Incarnate really wouldn't be appropriate for him.
You don't have to be an Incarnate to pick up Incarnate melds. Shape Soulmeld allows you to cherry pick, and you can even bind them to your Totemist body slots. A common combo of mine is to poach Thunderstride Boots off the Soulborn list (its not like anyone plays Soulborn's anyway...), use it with a Totemist who has it bound to his feet, along with Girallon Claws to totem and Sphinx Claws to hands. This gives you a pouncer with 4 attacks, each with a chance to stun and some nice bonus sonic damage. Not for your character, just an example of mix and matching melds.


Actually you only need to burn Turn/Rebuke uses to use it beyond the first use each day. It's not entirely clear to me whether Tenebrous gives you the same number of uses as a cleric of your level, or one every five rounds, with no total limit on uses if it's the latter, then it's useless for powering Travel Devotion, as that requires you to expend two turn uses, and you never have two at once.
Nit-pick, Travel Devotion only requires 1 attempt to use, not 2. It would work with Tenebrous. Law Devotion, on the other than, requires 3, and thus wouldn't work.


Able learner because? Also, I've been asked to avoid dips, given that it's gestalt and they're far less neccessary.
I'd guess in that build its to keep the couple roguey skills that don't appear on the Binder or Totemist list (namedly Disable Device) maxed out.


Your advice isn't awful, it's just that most of it doesn't fit with the build I want to do with this character.
I'm not really sure its advise you are looking for, but rather afirmation that what you have will work. Yes, it will work. It'll be fine, and it perscribes to the power level you are looking for. There is room for improvement, but you don't seem interested in it, which is also fine. Hope you've found what you are looking for.

Draxar
2010-08-03, 03:04 PM
You don't have to be an Incarnate to pick up Incarnate melds. Shape Soulmeld allows you to cherry pick, and you can even bind them to your Totemist body slots. A common combo of mine is to poach Thunderstride Boots off the Soulborn list (its not like anyone plays Soulborn's anyway...), use it with a Totemist who has it bound to his feet, along with Girallon Claws to totem and Sphinx Claws to hands. This gives you a pouncer with 4 attacks, each with a chance to stun and some nice bonus sonic damage. Not for your character, just an example of mix and matching melds.

Aye. But the build is already fairly feat heavy, so I'm not sure I have the room for it. OTOH, there may well be a single Incarnate/Soulborn meld worth nicking.


Nit-pick, Travel Devotion only requires 1 attempt to use, not 2. It would work with Tenebrous. Law Devotion, on the other than, requires 3, and thus wouldn't work.

The version I'm looking at says "Special: If you have the ability to turn or rebuke undead, you gain one additional daily use of this feat for each two daily turn or rebuke uses you expend"

(My emphasis). Unless it's been errataed, of course.



I'm not really sure its advise you are looking for, but rather afirmation that what you have will work. Yes, it will work. It'll be fine, and it perscribes to the power level you are looking for. There is room for improvement, but you don't seem interested in it, which is also fine. Hope you've found what you are looking for.

Currently the build is

Level One: ???? / Totemist
Level Two: ???? / Totemist
Level Three: ???? / Totemist
Level Four: ???? / Totemist
Level Five: Dragonmark Heir / Totemist
Level Six: Dragonmark Heir / Totemist
Level Seven: Dragonmark Heir / Totemist
Level Eight: Dragonmark Heir / Totemist
Level Nine: Dragonmark Heir / Totemist
Level Ten: Blade of Orien / Totemist
Level Eleven: Blade of Orien / Totemist



What I'm after is either a suggestion of what to put in the ???? that fits with the concept, and how to fit it in with the concept, or a different build that still fits the concept (and thus either has Dragonmark Heir levels or the Dragonmark feats).

Person_Man
2010-08-03, 03:12 PM
I'm aware of the soulmelds. And Incarnate really doesn't fit the character (I intended to mention that earlier but forgot) he's not passionately committed to a particuar alignment, therefore going Incarnate really wouldn't be appropriate for him.

Shape Soulmeld allows you to pick up Incarnate and Soulborn Soulmelds. There is also no penalty for changing alignments, other then the fact that you can't use certain aligned soulmelds. So Totemist X//Incarnate 3/Whatever X or Incarnate 3/Totemist 2/PrC X//Whatever Y would both work fine.


Able learner because? Also, I've been asked to avoid dips, given that it's gestalt and they're far less neccessary.

"The idea behind him is that he's a scout, a trailblazer.." If you want to be the point man for your party, you will probably want the Trapfinding class ability, and maxed out ranks of Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Search, and Disable Device - none of which are Totemist class levels. And as I previously mentioned, UMD and a few wands could replace your desire for Baleful Transposition, Expeditiously Retreat, Swift Fly, etc.



I could accept getting rid of Dragonmarked Heir, if I really liked what I was replacing it with, but at that point I will be taking the Least, Lesser and Greater Dragonmark feats (eating up over half my feat chocies). Because that's the concept.

Fair enough. I still stand by my Totemist 11//Rogue 1/Binder 10 suggestion, which doesn't require a huge number of feats to be useful. You could also consider the slightly weaker Totemist 11//Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) 11, which would involve no dipping, no need for Able Learner, and grant you access to Trapfinding, Skills, Mind Cripple, and a decent selection of powers (although not nearly as many powers or power points as a Psion).

EDIT: Most of my answer was ninja'd. Need to learn how to nitpick faster!

Keld Denar
2010-08-03, 03:13 PM
Hexblade is full BAB, d10 HD, and 4 levels gets you the Dark Companion ACF from PHBII, a shadowy panther that debuffs your foes AC and saves. Combos well with BoO's ability to teleport people against their will. Also adds +Cha to saves vs spells and grants Mettle, a rather useful ability. See if you can use Mike Mearl's fix (the origional designer of the Hexblade, check the CWarrior credits), which basically makes Hex a per encounter ability as a swift action (rather than the traditional per day as a free action). That way you can put your Dark Companion over someone, Hex them, move action teleport to them to full attack (triggering the Dreadful Wrath feat, PGtF), then use your standard action to teleport them off a cliff/airship/boat/Sharn/etc.

Draxar
2010-08-03, 03:27 PM
Shape Soulmeld allows you to pick up Incarnate and Soulborn Soulmelds. There is also no penalty for changing alignments, other then the fact that you can't use certain aligned soulmelds. So Totemist X//Incarnate 3/Whatever X or Incarnate 3/Totemist 2/PrC X//Whatever Y would both work fine.

It's not about changing alignments that's the issue. It's the fact that the Incarnate class describes itself as "you literally come to embody
one cause or alignment," and "You embody the alignment ideal that you hold most dear". That's not this character. This character is mostly likely going to be Neutral, and even if he was one of the four Incarnate alignments, he wouldn't be passionately committed to it.


"The idea behind him is that he's a scout, a trailblazer.." If you want to be the point man for your party, you will probably want the Trapfinding class ability, and maxed out ranks of Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Search, and Disable Device - none of which are Totemist class levels.

Aye, that is a fair point.


And as I previously mentioned, UMD and a few wands could replace your desire for Baleful Transposition, Expeditiously Retreat, Swift Fly, etc.

It's not a desire for those specific spells, it's a desire for the overall concept, and once that concept is decided on, using what's available within it. I don't particularly like Baleful Transposition or Swift fly I like Dark Way, I like Wind At Your Back, and I like having an extra use of Dimension Leap, Dimension Door and Teleport.

Also, there is one big advantage of doing it with Dragonmarks the fact that I'll be having a caster level of 17-18 for this, meaning my Dimension Door gets me over a thousand yards, for instance.





Fair enough. I still stand by my Totemist 11//Rogue 1/Binder 10 suggestion, which doesn't require a huge number of feats to be useful. You could also consider the slightly weaker Totemist 11//Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) 11, which would involve no dipping, no need for Able Learner, and grant you access to Trapfinding, Skills, Mind Cripple, and a decent selection of powers (although not nearly as many powers or power points as a Psion).

EDIT: Most of my answer was ninja'd. Need to learn how to nitpick faster!

It could work, with taking the three Dragomark feats. And it's undoubtably more powerful than what I'm doing. But TBH it doesn't offer the "This feels like what this character would do" element.

I will point out, as a general note, that I'm not particularly wedded to the character being a Totemist I'm guessing it's been left in peoples suggestions because it's one of the more powerful/efficient parts of the original build.

But suggestions replacing Totemist with something are also quite viable, if they work with the character concept.

Keld Denar
2010-08-03, 03:34 PM
But suggestions replacing Totemist with something are also quite viable, if they work with the character concept.

Yea, but Totemist is the part of the build that is actually GOOD! LOL! BoO is decent, but due to its rather crappy prereqs and the fact that the best part about it isn't available until ECL16 at the EARLIEST makes it less than amazing.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-03, 03:34 PM
Have you considered dropping Totemist and going Factotum 11//Binder 5/Heir 6?

Draxar
2010-08-03, 03:58 PM
Have you considered dropping Totemist and going Factotum 11//Binder 5/Heir 6?

No. But that's because Dragonmark Heir only has 5 levels. Nitpicking aside, I have thought of going Factotum, been mildly put off by the fact I've done Factotum before in this campaign, but it's certainly an option to consider.


Yea, but Totemist is the part of the build that is actually GOOD! LOL! BoO is decent, but due to its rather crappy prereqs and the fact that the best part about it isn't available until ECL16 at the EARLIEST makes it less than amazing.

But I'm not after amazing, or even particularly that 'good'. I'm after flavourful that works (considered from a point of view where core Figher probably 'works' with some effort, though not-heavily-optimised-Truenamer and Complete Warrior Samurai probably don't)


Hexblade is full BAB, d10 HD, and 4 levels gets you the Dark Companion ACF from PHBII, a shadowy panther that debuffs your foes AC and saves. Combos well with BoO's ability to teleport people against their will. Also adds +Cha to saves vs spells and grants Mettle, a rather useful ability. See if you can use Mike Mearl's fix (the origional designer of the Hexblade, check the CWarrior credits), which basically makes Hex a per encounter ability as a swift action (rather than the traditional per day as a free action). That way you can put your Dark Companion over someone, Hex them, move action teleport to them to full attack (triggering the Dreadful Wrath feat, PGtF), then use your standard action to teleport them off a cliff/airship/boat/Sharn/etc.

Do you mean this fix?


*Good Fortitude save
* Curse ability usable 1 + the hexblade's Cha modifier per day
* Curse ability usable as a swift action
* Curse ability does not count as used if the target makes his saving throw
* Ability to cast in light or medium armor and while carrying a light shield or buckler
* At 6th level, the hexblade can cast one hexblade spell per day as a swift action, as long as its original casting time is a standard action or faster. He gains an additional use of this power at levels 8, 11, 14, and 18.

As it doesn't make the curses per encounter, though does raise the number you get to the point where you can use them every encounter. Hexblade is a definite possibility, thanks I'll have a closer look at it, especially with the panther-thing.

Also, as a pointer, anything that revolves around "You get a full attack and you get a standard action as well" is probably something I'm going to steer away from as too overpowered for the game I'm in. Pounce I can work with (outside a Ubercharger build). Factotum's extra action I can work with. Stuff beyond that is generally going to be going too far.

Keld Denar
2010-08-03, 04:13 PM
My bad...I thought it was per encounter. Its been a while since I looked at it. But yea, its a really good 4 level investment if you can't think of anything else to go there. The full BAB part is nice to start with, since Totemist is only 3/4 BAB, this nets you an extra +1 to hit at level one, which is pretty significant.

Really, by the time BoO's tele-pounce comes into play, especially with as long as you are delaying it, won't be as over powered as you think. If you run your non-Totemist side as Hexblade4/Heir5/BoO10, you won't get tele-pounce until level 19!!!! Honestly, if I was you, I'd go Hexblade4/Heir1/BoO10/Heir+4. BoO really has some neato toys, what with the telekinesis ability and the hostile teleporting and whatnot. I personally think it would be a lot more fun to bring that stuff into play at as low a level as possible, simply so you can enjoy it more.

Draxar
2010-08-03, 05:48 PM
My bad...I thought it was per encounter. Its been a while since I looked at it. But yea, its a really good 4 level investment if you can't think of anything else to go there. The full BAB part is nice to start with, since Totemist is only 3/4 BAB, this nets you an extra +1 to hit at level one, which is pretty significant.

Aye. There are other possibilities, but either they feel like I'm heaping too much weirdness on the character (Binder, Warlock), or don't synergise quite right with the class (Scout, Fighter}


Really, by the time BoO's tele-pounce comes into play, especially with as long as you are delaying it, won't be as over powered as you think. If you run your non-Totemist side as Hexblade4/Heir5/BoO10, you won't get tele-pounce until level 19!!!!

Whether it's overpowered depends on what they other guy is doing, and what the DM is throwing against us.


Honestly, if I was you, I'd go Hexblade4/Heir1/BoO10/Heir+4. BoO really has some neato toys, what with the telekinesis ability and the hostile teleporting and whatnot. I personally think it would be a lot more fun to bring that stuff into play at as low a level as possible, simply so you can enjoy it more.

And the stuff that I want in as low a level as possible is the stuff that's less useful in combat, but more useful out of it like being able to teleport 1400 miles at level 8.