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Machiavellian
2010-08-02, 06:42 PM
Of all the Gladiator weapon combos, the Net and Trident has to be the classic gladiator combo. However, since D&D doesn't work like the real world, is it possible to optimize using the Net and Trident in tandem, and if so, how?

Critical
2010-08-02, 06:51 PM
Of all the Gladiator weapon combos, the Net and Trident has to be the classic gladiator combo. However, since D&D doesn't work like the real world, is it possible to optimize using the Net and Trident in tandem, and if so, how?
Well, get stuff that helps you win strength checks(Enlarge Person/Expansion/Jotunbrud, enchantment bonuses to strength, rage, large size) so you could win opposed strength check, get some swift action to help you with damage(ToB boosts, most likely) and full-attack away. Also, stacking dex penalties to make your target have equal to or less than 10 dex, making it sneak attack/sudden strike eligible.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-02, 06:53 PM
Also, stacking dex penalties to make your target have equal to or less than 10 dex, making it sneak attack/sudden strike eligible.

Whut?:smallconfused:

Not having a Dex bonus is not the same thing as losing your Dex bonus, which is what Sneak attack/sudden strike require. You could stack enough nets to bring them to 0 Dex, which is Paralysis, but a creature with Dex 10 is not vulnerable to SA by default.

Machiavellian
2010-08-02, 06:55 PM
Well, get stuff that helps you win strength checks(Enlarge Person/Expansion/Jotunbrud, enchantment bonuses to strength, rage, large size) so you could win opposed strength check, get some swift action to help you with damage(ToB boosts, most likely) and full-attack away. Also, stacking dex penalties to make your target have equal to or less than 10 dex, making it sneak attack/sudden strike eligible.

So be big, boost damage, and fight dirty. Sounds sexy...

So anyone have a build towards this to use/abuse the suggestion above?

Critical
2010-08-02, 07:04 PM
Whut?:smallconfused:

Not having a Dex bonus is not the same thing as losing your Dex bonus, which is what Sneak attack/sudden strike require. You could stack enough nets to bring them to 0 Dex, which is Paralysis, but a creature with Dex 10 is not vulnerable to SA by default.
Ow, right, sorry about that, just thought that I read it somewhere. And no you can't stack nets to bring creature to a paralysis, because it's a penalty, you need ability damage to bring something down to 0. Poison'd do, though.





So anyone have a build towards this to use/abuse the suggestion above?
I'm bored, so I could probably make you one... What level of cheese do you want?

tyckspoon
2010-08-02, 07:09 PM
Ow, right, sorry about that, just thought that I read it somewhere. And no you can't stack nets to bring creature to a paralysis, because it's a penalty, you need ability damage to bring something down to 0. Poison'd do, though.


There is no blanket rule that penalties cannot bring a stat to 0. That is only a particular clause of certain things that cause penalties, typically spells that otherwise cause a big enough penalty to have a real chance of bringing a stat all the way to 0 (ie, they didn't want you to be paralyzing things with Ray of Enfeeblement.) Stacking nets is problematic because it skirts the rules on not stacking conditions from the same source or stacking penalties from the same condition unless specifically told to; rules-wise, D&D will tend to treat "covered in two nets" as exactly the same condition as "covered in one net", with the exception that you would have to make two successful escape attempts to get out of two nets.

Machiavellian
2010-08-02, 07:16 PM
Ow, right, sorry about that, just thought that I read it somewhere. And no you can't stack nets to bring creature to a paralysis, because it's a penalty, you need ability damage to bring something down to 0. Poison'd do, though.



I'm bored, so I could probably make you one... What level of cheese do you want?

Moderate to Major, but with limited magic/psionics. Think about it in a Gladiatorial theme: Flashy magic tricks would get you killed in the gruff and brutal close quarters combat of the Arena. Try and see that this guy would be a pinnacle of cqc (close quarters combat), prefering the Net and Trident.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-02, 07:19 PM
Arenas are rarely close-quarters: although it does epitomize melee on standard fights(Generally ranged weapons are for rehearsed performances), they do have space to move around.


That said, Psionic Grease and Entangling Ectoplasm will have lots of screen time.

Machiavellian
2010-08-02, 07:22 PM
Arenas are rarely close-quarters: although it does epitomize melee on standard fights(Generally ranged weapons are for rehearsed performances), they do have space to move around.


That said, Psionic Grease and Entangling Ectoplasm will have lots of screen time.

I meant that a Glorified Hollywood-Style Gladiatorial combat scenario is almost all melee. Two men enter and all...

Snake-Aes
2010-08-02, 07:25 PM
Yup, it's what I think about. Maybe we are using different definitions of close-quarters combat? Mine is on the lines of "no, you can't move around freely at all. Have fun violating your boyfriend's personal space. Here's your shortsword".

Coidzor
2010-08-02, 07:27 PM
^: Sure you're not just thinking of grappling?


Of all the Gladiator weapon combos, the Net and Trident has to be the classic gladiator combo. However, since D&D doesn't work like the real world, is it possible to optimize using the Net and Trident in tandem, and if so, how?

Check with your DM, a lasso from BOED might be better due to having a slightly better range, making it so you don't have to give up your action to entangle them only to have them five-foot step up to you and still hit with their full attack. Nets and Lassos are probably more something for more of a support character to use on characters already in melee so they can't get the first real damage against the entangling weapon user.

Machiavellian
2010-08-02, 07:30 PM
Check with your DM, a lasso from BOED might be better due to having a slightly better range, making it so you don't have to give up your action to entangle them only to have them five-foot step up to you and still hit with their full attack. Nets and Lassos are probably more something for more of a support character to use on characters already in melee so they can't get the first real damage against the entangling weapon user.

There's a feat devoted to net and trident that makes it all a full round action

Coidzor
2010-08-02, 07:59 PM
There's a feat devoted to net and trident that makes it all a full round action

Hmm, interesting. What's the name and source of that feat?

Harpoon is a similar weapon, in that you can move into charge range from outside of it, hit them with the harpoon, get them stuck with the harpoon so they get 1/2 movement speed and can't charge or run as long as they don't have a good reflex save or you manage high damage with it. It doesn't have the entangling properties of the net or lasso, or the tripping properties of the lasso, but it has the range of the lasso(only better because lasso is max 30' with 10' increments, a -6(?) isn't fun, even for a touch attack with the possibility of a -4 non-proficiency penalty that can at least be eaten for a net's touch attack and range increment=max range) and making it so you can't be charged like the net offers(though, since they're 10 feet away, they can just 5-foot step without that feat in play)...

+1 net with that range enhancing property would probably be good.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-02, 08:03 PM
Hmm, interesting. What's the name and source of that feat?

"Net and Trident". Complete Warrior 114.

Coidzor
2010-08-02, 08:22 PM
"Net and Trident". Complete Warrior 114.

Mmm, fun. Now whether you can drop the rope after you do that and get two-handed modifier to the damage for the full attack....

Snake-Aes
2010-08-02, 08:23 PM
Mmm, fun. Now whether you can drop the rope after you do that and get two-handed modifier to the damage for the full attack....

Does the net maneuver require a grip on it? Dropping something is a free action so if the net can still pin the person down I don't see why it wouldn't work. Don't rely on catching it back on the next round though, I guess.

Critical
2010-08-02, 09:03 PM
Well, I figured a standard skirmisher would be lovely here, since you can 5-foot step, throw your net, then activate your Net and Trident style, 5-foot step again, and full-attack with skirmish. If you can, get those rocket-boots from one of the WotC articles that allow you an additional 5-foot step and get your skirmish on your net attack, too. :smallbiggrin:

So, basically, I made this, a fairly balanced in both defense and offense character, should be quite fit for a gladiator. Swing a Weapon Finnese there and get a Feycraft Trident to make this almost entirely(apart from str checks to hold on with trident) dex based.
Human Scout 4/Ranger 16
1HD EXWP: Net, Human: Weapon Focus: Trident, Flaw: Jotunbrud, Flaw: Combat Reflexes, 3HD Close-Quarters Fighting, 4S Improved Initiative, 6HD Swift Hunter, 2R Two-Weapon Fighting, 9HD Hold the Line, 10R Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, 12HD Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, 15HD Robilar's Gambit, 18HD Standstill.

+19 BAB, 5d6 Skirmish, +10 weapon damage vs one type(I'm guessing, gladiators are mostly humans?), defense against grapple, charging and enemies running away, also, likely to win initiative.

Machiavellian
2010-08-02, 09:59 PM
Well, I figured a standard skirmisher would be lovely here, since you can 5-foot step, throw your net, then activate your Net and Trident style, 5-foot step again, and full-attack with skirmish. If you can, get those rocket-boots from one of the WotC articles that allow you an additional 5-foot step and get your skirmish on your net attack, too. :smallbiggrin:

So, basically, I made this, a fairly balanced in both defense and offense character, should be quite fit for a gladiator. Swing a Weapon Finnese there and get a Feycraft Trident to make this almost entirely(apart from str checks to hold on with trident) dex based.
Human Scout 4/Ranger 16
1HD EXWP: Net, Human: Weapon Focus: Trident, Flaw: Jotunbrud, Flaw: Combat Reflexes, 3HD Close-Quarters Fighting, 4S Improved Initiative, 6HD Swift Hunter, 2R Two-Weapon Fighting, 9HD Hold the Line, 10R Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, 12HD Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, 15HD Robilar's Gambit, 18HD Standstill.

+19 BAB, 5d6 Skirmish, +10 weapon damage vs one type(I'm guessing, gladiators are mostly humans?), defense against grapple, charging and enemies running away, also, likely to win initiative.

Absolutely flawless. This is how TWF is supposed to be. You use the net to get a nasty next-to-free Full Attack with the Trident. Want to make this NASTY? I actually suggest a bloodfeeding (MIC) for both bonus damage and flavor. The weapon would "hunger" to draw his foe's blood.

ericgrau
2010-08-02, 10:08 PM
The net does have tactical uses in D&D. And you can get it practically for free by using it without proficiency, since it is only a touch attack after all. There are even special net folding rules for non-proficient wielders, suggesting this option was intentional. The main purpose would be to keep the target from changing squares, either by holding the rope or simply moving the party away from him faster than he can move (at half speed). That could prevent them from getting into melee, effectively gives them a -4 to ranged attack rolls and effectively gives them -2 AC. That seems better than tripping so I'm surprised this weapon is so overlooked. EDIT: Oh, but improved trip does let you do damage at the same time, though it costs a feat.

The trident is basically an advanced spear. It's almost as good as a longsword for damage and it may be thrown when needed. Handy after you've netted someone I suppose. A ranged weapon would be better but a ranged weapon couldn't be used in melee when you can't net. I mean given the damage there's little drawback to this option even if you can't use the throwing option as often as you'd like.

Evard
2010-08-03, 12:08 AM
About a year or so ago there was a thread about something like this...

Razor net + returning for fun :D

Machiavellian
2010-08-03, 12:37 PM
Razor net seems brutal, even for this build. However, the idea of skirmishing for this seems logical. As long as you can Coup De Grace quickly enough, do it.

Person_Man
2010-08-03, 01:02 PM
The net is very useful when combined with the Mage Slayer feat. Mage Slayer prevents casters from casting defensively, and the net prevents them from moving away from you (as long as they can't beat you on a Str check). So all you need to do is move next to an enemy, succeed on a ranged touch attack, and they're pretty much screwed. It saves you from having to go through the Thicket of Blades/Improved Trip craziness.


"Net and Trident" from Complete Warrior is garbage, btw. Horrible pre-reqs for a limited return.

Machiavellian
2010-08-03, 01:47 PM
The net is very useful when combined with the Mage Slayer feat. Mage Slayer prevents casters from casting defensively, and the net prevents them from moving away from you (as long as they can't beat you on a Str check). So all you need to do is move next to an enemy, succeed on a ranged touch attack, and they're pretty much screwed. It saves you from having to go through the Thicket of Blades/Improved Trip craziness.


"Net and Trident" from Complete Warrior is garbage, btw. Horrible pre-reqs for a limited return.

Well, That means a Net & Trident Mageslayer fighter/Swift Hunter would be an effective anti-mage meeler, right?

and the feat emulates the Net & Trident gladiatorial style