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View Full Version : [3.5 ToB] Metainitiation feat. [PEACH]



zagan
2010-08-04, 12:36 PM
Iím proud to present you with my newest homebrew work. I hit upon the idea while working on my spell for the Potpourri creation contest III (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162387).

The idea being metamagic feat for maneuver. My first idea being calling them metamaneuver wich sound good but in application itís not practical, metablade magic was just lame so finally I called them metainitiation which is not too bad. I had a hard time finding a mechanic that could represent a fair cost for them but eventually decide on expanding a second maneuver of higher level. I think it work.
I would very much like to have your opinion on the current list of feat and suggestion for new one.

Metainitiation feat

As an initiatorís knowledge of blade magic grows, he can learn to initiate maneuver in ways slightly different from how the maneuvers were originally designed or learned. Of course, initiating a maneuver while using a metainitiation feat is more difficult than initiating the maneuver normally.

Initiating Time

Maneuvers initiated using metainitiations feat take the same time as initiating the maneuvers normally unless the feat description specifically says otherwise.

Initiating Cost

To use a metainitiation feat, an initiating character must expend a second maneuver of a level equal or superior to the one initiate with the metainitiation feat as indicate in the feat description if the character doesnít have any readied maneuver of the appropriate level he canít use the metainitiation feat. Once expended that way the maneuver can be recovered like any other expended maneuver.
Metainitiation feat canít be used on stance.

Multiple Metainitiation Feat on a Maneuver

Unlike metamagic feat, only one metainitiation feat can be use on a single maneuver.

Effects of Metainitiation feat on a Maneuver

In all ways, a metainitiation maneuver operates as normal for the maneuver. The modifications to a maneuver made by a metainitiation feat have only their noted effect on the maneuver.
Initiating a maneuver modified by the Fused Maneuver feat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Some metainitiation feats apply only to certain maneuvers, as described in each specific feat entry.

Martial Script and Metainitiation Maneuver

Martial Script of metainitiation version of maneuver can be create by using the Scribe Martial Script feat, the creator must know the metainitiation feat used to do so. A character doesnít need the metainitiation feat to activate a martial script storing a metainitiation version of a maneuver but must expend a second maneuver as normal for using a metainitiation version of the maneuver.

A character can also apply a metainitiation feat to a maneuver from a martial script as long as he can expand a maneuver of the right level.

Note: This rule also apply to Crown of White Ravens and all variant from other discipline but the cost increase by 500gp for the novice version, 2000gp for the scholar version and 5000gp for the master version.

List of Metainitiation feat

{table=head]Feats name|Prerequisites|Benefit
Adapt Maneuver|Martial lore 6 ranks, Must know maneuvers from at least two different discipline|Change a maneuver discipline
Empower Maneuver|Initiator level 5th|Increase maneuverís variable, numeric effect by 50%
Energy Substitute Maneuver|Any other metainitiation feat, Martial lore 5 ranks|Energy maneuvers can deal different energy damage
Enlarge Maneuver|Initiator level 3rd|Double maneuverís range
Extend Maneuver|Initiator level 3rd|Double maneuverís duration
Extraordinary Maneuver|Martial lore 8 ranks, Spellcraft 4 rank, Must know at least one supernatural maneuver|Make supernatural maneuver extraordinary
Fused Maneuver|Initiator level 9th|Initiate boost and strike at the same time
Heighten Maneuver|--|Make maneuver harder to resist
Maximize Maneuver|Initiator level 7th|Maximize maneuver variable numerical effect
Opportunity Maneuver|Initiator level 7th|Make attack of opportunity with strike maneuver
Reach Maneuver|Initiator level 5th|Use strike maneuver at range
Save Maneuver|--|Use counter but donít expand it
Subdual Maneuver|Any other metainitiation feat, Martial lore 5 ranks|Maneuver can deal nonlethal damage
Twin Maneuver|Initiator level 5th|Use a maneuver on two creature at the same time
Widen Maneuver|Initiator level 7th|Double maneuverís area
[/table]

Adapted Maneuver [Metainitiation]
You know how to change the style of your strike.
Prerequisite
Martial lore 6 ranks, Must know maneuvers from at least two different discipline
Benefit
When initiating a maneuver you can chose to make it count as it was from another discipline, this can allow you to benefit from feat or magic item that depend on you using maneuver of a certain discipline. The adapted maneuver only count as being from another discipline when you initiate it this mean that you canít use it to met the prerequisite of feat, prestige class or even other maneuver. You must know at least one maneuver of the discipline you chose to make the maneuver count as. To use an adapt maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least the same level than the adapt maneuver.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

Empower Maneuver [Metainitiation]
You know how to strike harder than most
Prerequisite
Initiator level 5th
Benefit
All variable, numeric effects of an empowered maneuver are increased by one-half. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are maneuvers without random variables. To use an empowered maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least two level higher than the empowered maneuver.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

Energy Substitute Maneuver [Metainitiation]
You can modify a maneuver so it deal another type of damage.
Prerequisite
Any other metainitiation feat, Martial lore 5 ranks
Benefit
You choose one type of energy: acid, cold, electricity or fire. When employing a maneuver with the acid, cold, electricity or fire descriptor, you can modify the maneuver to use your chosen type of energy instead. To use an energy substitute maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least the same level than the energy substitute maneuver.
The altered maneuver works normally in all respects except the type of damage dealt.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Enlarge Maneuver [Metainitiation]
You know how to augment the range of your maneuver
Prerequisite
Initiator level 3rd
Benefit
You can alter a maneuver with a range measured in feet to increase its range by 100%. An enlarged maneuver with a range of 30ft now has a range of 60 ft.
Maneuvers whose ranges are not mesured in feet, such as maneuvers whose ranges are melee attack, touch or personal, do not have increased ranges. To use an enlarged maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least one level higher than the enlarged maneuver.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

Extend maneuver [Metainitiation]
You know how to make your move last longer
Prerequisite
Initiator level 3rd
Benefit
An extended maneuver lasts twice as long as normal. A maneuver with a duration of concentration or instantaneous is not affected by this feat. To use an extend maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least one level higher than the extend maneuver.
Note: A maneuver with a duration of ďEnd of turnĒ change to ďEnd of next turnĒ with this feat.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

"New"
Extraordinary maneuver [Metainitiation]
Your expertise with supernatural technique allow to use them even when other couldnít
Prerequisite
Martial lore 8 ranks, Spellcraft 4 rank, Must know at least one supernatural maneuver
Benefit
When initiating a supernatural maneuver you can chose to have it count as extraordinary instead, among other thing it allow you to use it in an anti-magic field. To use an extraordinary maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least the same level than the extraordinary maneuver.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

"New"
Fused Maneuver [Metainitiation]
Youíve learn how to augment yourself and strike at the same time.
Prerequisite
Initiator level 9th
Benefit
When using a maneuver with an initiating time of a swift action, most likely a boost, you can chose to initiate a maneuver with an initiating time of as part of the same action, in effect you use both maneuver using only swift action. To use a fused maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least four level higher than the highest fused maneuver.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

Heighten Maneuver [Metainitiation]
You know how to make your strike harder to resist.
Prerequisite
None
Benefit
An heighten maneuver has a higher DC than normal to a maximum of 19 + appropriate ability modifier. Only maneuver that offer a save can be heighten. To use an heighten maneuver you must expand a maneuver of a level that depend on the new DC as describe in the following table:
{table=head]New DC| Level of expanded maneuver
11+Key ability modifier|1st level
12+Key ability modifier|2nd level
13+Key ability modifier|3rd level
14+Key ability modifier|4th level
15+Key ability modifier|5th level
16+Key ability modifier|6th level
17+Key ability modifier|7th level
18+Key ability modifier|8th level
19+Key ability modifier|9th level
[/table]
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

Maximize Maneuver [Metainitiation]
You know how the deal the maximum amount of damage with your strike.
Prerequisite
Initiator level 7th
Benefit
All variable, numeric effects of a maneuver modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are maneuvers without random variables, this does not affected weapon damage made in conjunction with the maneuver. To use a maximized maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least three level higher than the maximized maneuver.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

Opportunity Maneuver [Metainitiation]
You can strike with all your strength at any moment
Prerequisite
Initiator level 7th
Benefit
When you make an attack of opportunity, you can use any strike maneuver with an initiating time of 1 standard action. This count as your immediate action for the round. To use an opportunity maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least three level higher than the opportunity maneuver.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

Reach maneuver [Metainitiation]
You can strike from afar with your weapon
Prerequisite
Initiator level 5th
Benefit
You may initiate a maneuver that normally has a range of melee attack at any distance up to 30 feet. If you need to make a melee attack or melee touch attack as part of the maneuver you take a -1 cumulative penality on the attack roll for every 5 feet between you and the target to a maximum of -6 at 30 feet. In all other way the maneuver function as normal, including damaged dealt with your weapon. To use a reach maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least two level higher than the reach maneuver.
Special
You can use this feat to initiate maneuver with a range weapon in that case the maximum distance become equal to the range increment of the weapon and the penalty is for every 10 feet instead of 5.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

Save Maneuver [Metainitiation]
Youíve learn how to preserve your ressource.
Prerequisite
None
Benefit
When initiating a counter you may chose to not expend it. To use a saved maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least the same level than the saved maneuver.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

Subdual Maneuver [Metainitiation]
You know how to strike in way that only incapacitate your target
Prerequisite
Any other metainitiation feat, Martial lore 5 ranks
Benefit
When initiating a maneuver that deal damage, of any type, you may chose to deal nonlethal damage instead. If you attack with a weapon as part of the maneuver the weapon also deal nonlethal damage. To use a subdual maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least the same level than the subdual maneuver. The altered maneuver works normally in all respects except the type of damage dealt.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

Twin Maneuver [Metainitiation]
You can strike two foe at the same time
Prerequisite
Initiator level 5th
Benefit
When initiating a maneuver with a target of one creature you can chose to change it to two creature adjacent to you and to each other. If you need to make an attack as part of the maneuver you only need to roll once but you take a -2 penality on the roll. In all other way this function as if you used twice the same maneuver on two different creature at the same time. To use a twin maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least three level higher than the twin maneuver.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

Widen Maneuver [Metainitiation]
You can affect a wider area with your maneuver
Prerequisite
Initiator level 7th
Benefit
You can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread shaped maneuver to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the maneuverís area increase by 100%. To use a widen maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least three level higher than the widen maneuver.
Maneuvers that do not have an area of one of these four sorts are not affected by this feat.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

Morph Bark
2010-08-04, 01:04 PM
An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spellís actual level.

Copypasta success/fail?

I'm not sure how to take this all. Personally, I don't think it's really fitting for ToB.

zagan
2010-08-04, 01:16 PM
Copypasta success/fail?

Fail thanks for the catch.


I'm not sure how to take this all. Personally, I don't think it's really fitting for ToB.

Well most maneuver are pretty out there to begin with so that someone could work out some way to customize them seem plausible to me.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-08-05, 11:04 AM
First off, I love the idea here. I don't think a straight copy/pasta of most metamagic feats works, though. Some work, others don't, but I'll get to that as I go along. It could just be my personal tastes when it comes to metamagic.


Metainitiation feat

The name looks fine. It kind of makes me think about Truenaming, but it's the best of the options you've got so far. I'm blank as for other ideas.



Initiating Time

Seems in order.


Initiating Cost

This makes me think that only Swordsages would ever really have enough maneuvers to use these feats, although I suppose Crusaders could get by due to how they refresh, but they'd run the risk of not having the right level of maneuver available to use their feats on the maneuver they want.


Multiple Metainitiation Feat on a Maneuver

Also good. Helps stop weird interactions in the case this little project grows.


Effects of Metainitiation feat on a Maneuver

Initially, your little blurb about AoOs on maneuvers made me take a double take as I can't think of any maneuvers off hand that would provoke normally. However, I do know that there is a feat in Tome of Magic that allows you to take AoOs on supernatural abilities, so having that blurb there makes sense.


Martial Script and Metainitiation Maneuver

Again, seems standard.



List of Metainitiation feat

{table=head]Feats name|Prerequisites|Benefit
Empower Maneuver|Initiator level 5th|Increase maneuverís variable, numeric effect by 50%
Energy Substitute Maneuver|Any other metainitiation feat, Martial lore 5 ranks|Energy maneuvers can deal different energy damage
Enlarge Maneuver|Initiator level 3rd|Double maneuverís range
Extend Maneuver|Initiator level 3rd|Double maneuverís duration
Heighten Maneuver|--|Make maneuver harder to resist
Maximize Maneuver|Initiator level 7th|Maximize maneuver variable numerical effect
Opportunity Maneuver|Initiator level 7th|Make attack of opportunity with strike maneuver
Quicken Maneuver|Initiator level 9th|Initiate maneuver as swift action
Reach Maneuver|Initiator level 5th|Use strike maneuver at range
Subdual Maneuver|Any other metainitiation feat, Martial lore 5 ranks|Maneuver can deal nonlethal damage
Twin Maneuver|Initiator level 5th|Use a maneuver on two creature at the same time
Widen Maneuver|Initiator level 7th|Double maneuverís area
[/table]

Now onto the meat of it! All the requirements look in order. I like how you've made most of them available to fighters and warblades as bonus feats. Good move!


Empower Maneuver [Metainitiation]
You know how to strike harder than most
Prerequisite
Initiator level 5th
Benefit
All variable, numeric effects of an empowered maneuver are increased by one-half. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are maneuvers without random variables. To use an empowered maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least two level higher than the empowered maneuver.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

This is one of those types of meta-feats that I feel just doesn't work for maneuvers, outside of maybe some of the later Desert Wind maneuvers. It may just be me, though, as I've never been a big fan of Empower [anything], and most of the maneuvers I can think of off-hand are Crusader ones.


Energy Substitute Maneuver [Metainitiation]
You can modify a maneuver so it deal another type of damage.
Prerequisite
Any other metainitiation feat, Martial lore 5 ranks
Benefit
You choose one type of energy: acid, cold, electricity or fire. When employing a maneuver with the acid, cold, electricity or fire descriptor, you can modify the maneuver to use your chosen type of energy instead. To use an energy substitute maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least the same level than the energy substitute maneuver.
The altered maneuver works normally in all respects except the type of damage dealt.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

A must for a Desert Wind-loving Swordsage! I'm almost tempted to make this a freebie for them as it could get difficult to fuel the higher level maneuvers when you'd first get access to them.


Enlarge Maneuver [Metainitiation]
You know how to augment the range of your maneuver
Prerequisite
Initiator level 3rd
Benefit
You can alter a maneuver with a range measured in feet to increase its range by 100%. An enlarged maneuver with a range of 30ft now has a range of 60 ft.
Maneuvers whose ranges are not mesured in feet, such as well as maneuvers whose ranges are melee attack, touch or personal, do not have increased ranges. To use an enlarged maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least one level higher than the enlarged maneuver.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

This is another one of those that just seems largely unnecessary. Of course, once you consider the numerous ranged disciplines found within these very forums, this starts to make a lot of sense and may actually be a decent choice.


Extend maneuver [Metainitiation]
You know how to make your move last longer
Prerequisite
Initiator level 3rd
Benefit
An extended maneuver lasts twice as long as normal. A maneuver with a duration of concentration or instantaneous is not affected by this feat. To use an extend maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least one level higher than the extend maneuver.
Note: A maneuver with a duration of ďEnd of turnĒ change to ďEnd of next turnĒ with this feat.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

Like I said on the spell that this functionally mimics: I love it! Makes boosts better and could allow you to benefit from multiples at the same time if you have the maneuvers to blow.


Heighten Maneuver [Metainitiation]
You know how to make your strike harder to resist.
Prerequisite
None
Benefit
An heighten maneuver has a higher DC than normal to a maximum of 19 + appropriate ability modifier. Only maneuver that offer a save can be heighten. To use an heighten maneuver you must expand a maneuver of a level that depend on the new DC as describe in the following table:
{table=head]New DC| Level of expanded maneuver
11|1st level
12|2nd level
13|3rd level
14|4th level
15|5th level
16|6th level
17|7th level
18|8th level
19|9th level
[/table]
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

You need to fix the table to read 1# + Key ability modifier instead of just 11 through 19, but otherwise this looks fine. I know there are some pretty sweet mid-level maneuvers that fall by the wayside due to the fact that their saves remain effectively static as you level. This is neat way to fix that.


Maximize Maneuver [Metainitiation]
You know how the deal the maximum amount of damage with your strike.
Prerequisite
Initiator level 7th
Benefit
All variable, numeric effects of a maneuver modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are maneuvers without random variables, this does not affected weapon damage made in conjunction with the maneuver. To use a maximized maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least three level higher than the maximized maneuver.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

Pretty much what I said for Empower Maneuver applies here, too.


Opportunity Maneuver [Metainitiation]
You can strike with all your strength at any moment
Prerequisite
Initiator level 7th
Benefit
When you make an attack of opportunity, you can use any strike maneuver with an initiating time of 1 standard action. This count as your immediate action for the round. To use an opportunity maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least three level higher than the opportunity maneuver.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

As most martial adepts have something to do with their swift/immediate actions already, I'm inclined to remove the cost of using your immediate action from this feat. Otherwise, I am a fan.


Quicken Maneuver [Metainitiation]
Youíve learn how to strike far faster than most.
Prerequisite
Initiator level 9th
Benefit
Initiating a quickened maneuver is a swift action. You can perform another action, even initiating another maneuver, in the same round as you initiate a quickened maneuver. You may only apply quicken a maneuver with an initiating time of 1 standard action. To use a quicken maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least four level higher than the quicken maneuver.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

Looks good. I could see a Tiger Claw-based Swordsage using this to get even more attacks off to help get more mileage out of his Assassin's Stance. It could cause problems with some of the cheaper action-costed extra attack generators, but I don't think such would be a problem.


Reach maneuver [Metainitiation]
You can strike from afar with your weapon
Prerequisite
Initiator level 5th
Benefit
You may initiate a maneuver that normally has a range of melee attack at any distance up to 30 feet. If you need to make a melee attack or melee touch attack as part of the maneuver you take a -1 cumulative penality on the attack roll for every 5 feet between you and the target to a maximum of -6 at 30 feet. In all other way the maneuver function as normal, including damaged dealt with your weapon. To use a reach maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least two level higher than the reach maneuver.
Special
You can use this feat to initiate maneuver with a range weapon in that case the maximum distance become equal to the range increment of the weapon and the penalty is for every 10 feet instead of 5.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

This actual helps non-Crusaders get into range, so I approve. It seems a little situational to me as martial adepts are free to move and whack-a-mole in one turn, but it's nice to have the option.


Subdual Maneuver [Metainitiation]
You know how to strike in way that only incapacitate your target
Prerequisite
Any other metainitiation feat, Martial lore 5 ranks
Benefit
When initiating a maneuver that deal damage, of any type, you may chose to deal nonlethal damage instead. If you attack with a weapon as part of the maneuver the weapon also deal nonlethal damage. To use a subdual maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least the same level than the subdual maneuver. The altered maneuver works normally in all respects except the type of damage dealt.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

I really don't see a reason for this feat to exist. In almost all cases, I'd rather just soak the -4 to hit to deal subdual damage instead.


Twin Maneuver [Metainitiation]
You can strike two foe at the same time
Prerequisite
Initiator level 5th
Benefit
When initiating a maneuver with a target of one creature you can chose to change it to two creature adjacent to you and to each other. If you need to make an attack as part of the maneuver you only need to roll once but you take a -2 penality on the roll. In all other way this function as if you used twice the same maneuver on two different creature at the same time. To use a twin maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least three level higher than the twin maneuver.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

This one basically turns everything you've got into a mini-Tiger Claw strike. Not bad. Like I said with the spell, it's a nice option.


Widen Maneuver [Metainitiation]
You can affect a wider area with your maneuver
Prerequisite
Initiator level 7th
Benefit
You can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread shaped maneuver to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the maneuverís area increase by 100%. To use a widen maneuver you must expand a maneuver at least three level higher than the widen maneuver.
Maneuvers that do not have an area of one of these four sorts are not affected by this feat.
Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Special
A warblade may select this feat as one of his warblade bonus feats.

Like Enlarge, this is another maneuver that I feel is largely unnecessary. There aren't too terribly many legal targets for it when it comes to maneuvers and this would eat up a feat slot on top of those generally subpar maneuvers.


Overall, I like your method of requiring multiple maneuvers to activate the feats, but I feel as though Warblades miss out on the fun. Crusaders probably get the biggest boost in that they can refresh their tricks even faster under decent conditions, and Swordsages seem to be the intended consumer due to their large pool available to burn in shorter fights.

However, I do think that some of the above could be axed outright while others could have their costs dropped. Energy Substitution in particular should probably just be a freebie outside of taking the feat itself.

I do look forward to original meta-feats, however. It's always easier to start with something that already exists, and I'm now trying to figure out just how to make a Metainitiation feat that would really only work as a Metainitiation feat.

zagan
2010-08-05, 12:03 PM
First off, I love the idea here. I don't think a straight copy/pasta of most metamagic feats works, though. Some work, others don't, but I'll get to that as I go along. It could just be my personal tastes when it comes to metamagic.

It's mostly to serve as a base and while it's based on the official discipline I want it to be usefull to those that use homebrew one.



The name looks fine. It kind of makes me think about Truenaming, but it's the best of the options you've got so far. I'm blank as for other ideas.

Yeah, I'll probably keep that.


This makes me think that only Swordsages would ever really have enough maneuvers to use these feats, although I suppose Crusaders could get by due to how they refresh, but they'd run the risk of not having the right level of maneuver available to use their feats on the maneuver they want.

Well it depend, yes swordsage would probably make the best use of it but they need to have maneuver of the right level readied and while they know a lot of maneuver even by switching out low level maneuver they can't know that many high level one. Still I think that crusader or warblade with the right metainitiation feat could have a good mileage out of them.


Also good. Helps stop weird interactions in the case this little project grows.

Yep.


Initially, your little blurb about AoOs on maneuvers made me take a double take as I can't think of any maneuvers off hand that would provoke normally. However, I do know that there is a feat in Tome of Magic that allows you to take AoOs on supernatural abilities, so having that blurb there makes sense.

It was just in case yes because they're lot of way to make so various thing provoq AOO.



Now onto the meat of it! All the requirements look in order. I like how you've made most of them available to fighters and warblades as bonus feats. Good move!

Thanks.


This is one of those types of meta-feats that I feel just doesn't work for maneuvers, outside of maybe some of the later Desert Wind maneuvers. It may just be me, though, as I've never been a big fan of Empower [anything], and most of the maneuvers I can think of off-hand are Crusader ones.

A lot of maneuver deal +Xd6 damage in that case they would deal +Xd6+1/2Xd6


A must for a Desert Wind-loving Swordsage! I'm almost tempted to make this a freebie for them as it could get difficult to fuel the higher level maneuvers when you'd first get access to them.

I don't want to make exception and I want to keep it open for homebrew maneuver dealing other type of damage.


This is another one of those that just seems largely unnecessary. Of course, once you consider the numerous ranged disciplines found within these very forums, this starts to make a lot of sense and may actually be a decent choice.

Yeah again it's mostly for completness.


Like I said on the spell that this functionally mimics: I love it! Makes boosts better and could allow you to benefit from multiples at the same time if you have the maneuvers to blow.

It was that spell that give me the idea for the whole project.


You need to fix the table to read 1# + Key ability modifier instead of just 11 through 19, but otherwise this looks fine. I know there are some pretty sweet mid-level maneuvers that fall by the wayside due to the fact that their saves remain effectively static as you level. This is neat way to fix that.

I'll do that.


Pretty much what I said for Empower Maneuver applies here, too.

And same answer.:smalltongue:


As most martial adepts have something to do with their swift/immediate actions already, I'm inclined to remove the cost of using your immediate action from this feat. Otherwise, I am a fan.

I wasn't sure about that I might remove it. It's not really to stop them from using boost or counter but it's to stop them to use more than 1 maneuver per round as an AOO.


Looks good. I could see a Tiger Claw-based Swordsage using this to get even more attacks off to help get more mileage out of his Assassin's Stance. It could cause problems with some of the cheaper action-costed extra attack generators, but I don't think such would be a problem.

It's my personal favorite.


This actual helps non-Crusaders get into range, so I approve. It seems a little situational to me as martial adepts are free to move and whack-a-mole in one turn, but it's nice to have the option.

I wasn't sure on this one, I was affraid of stepping on the toe of the bloodstorm blade prc.


I really don't see a reason for this feat to exist. In almost all cases, I'd rather just soak the -4 to hit to deal subdual damage instead.

Yeah probably, but I'll probably leave it.


This one basically turns everything you've got into a mini-Tiger Claw strike. Not bad. Like I said with the spell, it's a nice option.

Thanks


Like Enlarge, this is another maneuver that I feel is largely unnecessary. There aren't too terribly many legal targets for it when it comes to maneuvers and this would eat up a feat slot on top of those generally subpar maneuvers.

Again it's for completness.


Overall, I like your method of requiring multiple maneuvers to activate the feats, but I feel as though Warblades miss out on the fun. Crusaders probably get the biggest boost in that they can refresh their tricks even faster under decent conditions, and Swordsages seem to be the intended consumer due to their large pool available to burn in shorter fights.

It may need playtesting.


However, I do think that some of the above could be axed outright while others could have their costs dropped. Energy Substitution in particular should probably just be a freebie outside of taking the feat itself.

The axable one are mostly there to go with other homebrew work. As for energy sub I don't know.


I do look forward to original meta-feats, however. It's always easier to start with something that already exists, and I'm now trying to figure out just how to make a Metainitiation feat that would really only work as a Metainitiation feat.

I'm searching for idea currently. if you have any I would most welcome them.
Thanks you very much for the peach.

Milskidasith
2010-08-05, 12:07 PM
Twin Maneuver is far better than quicken maneuver. Why is it less of an adjustment?

It's better because quicken maneuver uses your swifts, which, with counters, boosts, and stance changes, along with re-readying maneuvers, you'll pretty much always be using.

zagan
2010-08-05, 12:11 PM
Twin Maneuver is far better than quicken maneuver. Why is it less of an adjustment?

It's better because quicken maneuver uses your swifts, which, with counters, boosts, and stance changes, along with re-readying maneuvers, you'll pretty much always be using.

They don't have the same purpose twin has restriction on what you can target "two creature adjacent to you and to each other", you take a small penailty on the attack roll and it's the same maneuver twice.
Quicken allow you to use two different maneuver on any valid target and the cost is the swift action wich mean you can't use a boost.

Milskidasith
2010-08-05, 12:15 PM
They don't have the same purpose twin has restriction on what you can target "two creature adjacent to you and to each other", you take a small penailty on the attack roll and it's the same maneuver twice.
Quicken allow you to use two different maneuver on any valid target and the cost is the swift action wich mean you can't use a boost.

Yes, which is why quicken is worse. Are you ignoring what I said? Quicken prevents you from using most of what the ToB's power comes from (the strikes are frequently underwhelming with decent optimization, save higher level ones, but the boosts and counters are godsends), while Twin does no such thing. It should be a higher adjustment than quicken, or, rather, quicken should be a lower adjustment.

zagan
2010-08-05, 12:22 PM
Yes, which is why quicken is worse. Are you ignoring what I said? Quicken prevents you from using most of what the ToB's power comes from (the strikes are frequently underwhelming with decent optimization, save higher level ones, but the boosts and counters are godsends), while Twin does no such thing. It should be a higher adjustment than quicken, or, rather, quicken should be a lower adjustment.

No, no I'm not ignoring you. I'm just confused. I was under the impression that the ability to use different maneuver would increase the versatility and justify the higher price of quicken while twin restriction of target would allow for lesser price. But perhaps your right the fact that you can still use boost might make up for that.

Perhaps if both require a meneuver three level higer ?

EDIT: Add a new feat Adapted maneuver, I'm not sure on the wording of this one, but the concept is interesting I think.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-08-06, 09:16 PM
Adapted Maneuver looks nice. It doesn't do too terribly much in practice, however, except for maybe granting an extra +1 to hit from either the weapon property or being a Swordsage as I can't think of any PrC abilities that trigger on certain disciplines.

Milskidasith
2010-08-06, 09:40 PM
No, no I'm not ignoring you. I'm just confused. I was under the impression that the ability to use different maneuver would increase the versatility and justify the higher price of quicken while twin restriction of target would allow for lesser price. But perhaps your right the fact that you can still use boost might make up for that.

The ability to use a different maneuver would be useful if it didn't sacrifice your ability to use boosts or counters, which are generally far more powerful than strikes. That's the point. Quicken Spell is worth a ton because it lets you use two spells in a round, and you aren't using your swifts anyway. Quicken Maneuver lets you use a strike as a swift action, which, save for high level strikes you can't use, usually isn't worth as much as just using a boost that's already a swift action. Example: Raging Mongoose, or Death from Above. I know which one I'm using as a swift action, and it isn't Death from Above.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-08-07, 12:31 AM
The ability to use a different maneuver would be useful if it didn't sacrifice your ability to use boosts or counters, which are generally far more powerful than strikes. That's the point. Quicken Spell is worth a ton because it lets you use two spells in a round, and you aren't using your swifts anyway. Quicken Maneuver lets you use a strike as a swift action, which, save for high level strikes you can't use, usually isn't worth as much as just using a boost that's already a swift action. Example: Raging Mongoose, or Death from Above. I know which one I'm using as a swift action, and it isn't Death from Above.

To be fir, Milskidasith, Twin Maneuvers suffers in the same way Cleave does, but less so, in the sense that you need to adjacent targets to use while Quicken does not. That's worth a little something and Quicken does not remove your counters, although it does make you question whether or not to use them.

Milskidasith
2010-08-07, 01:03 AM
To be fir, Milskidasith, Twin Maneuvers suffers in the same way Cleave does, but less so, in the sense that you need to adjacent targets to use while Quicken does not. That's worth a little something and Quicken does not remove your counters, although it does make you question whether or not to use them.

Err... yes, Quicken does remove your ability to use counters. It takes your rounds swift action, and you get one immediate or swift a round. You use quicken, no counters, no boosts, no stance changes (without the one stance that lets you use counters once per round for free).

Also, yes, twin suffers the cleave problem, but, especially when you assume the more logical assumption that it's the range of the power (for those that move you to the enemy or are ranged, though I'm not sure how many non homebrew of those exist), it's not as much. Plus, lockdown builds rarely suffer a lack of opponent's in their threatened range.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-08-07, 01:49 AM
Err... yes, Quicken does remove your ability to use counters. It takes your rounds swift action, and you get one immediate or swift a round. You use quicken, no counters, no boosts, no stance changes (without the one stance that lets you use counters once per round for free).

Actually, when you use an immediate action off turn, it eats up your next turn's swift action. So, if I open combat with a Quickened Stone Bones, I could still counter with Action Before Thought, but then I could not use my swift action for anything on my next turn.


Also, yes, twin suffers the cleave problem, but, especially when you assume the more logical assumption that it's the range of the power (for those that move you to the enemy or are ranged, though I'm not sure how many non homebrew of those exist), it's not as much. Plus, lockdown builds rarely suffer a lack of opponent's in their threatened range.

I will admit that, although it suffers from the same general principle that cleave does, it is nowhere near as bad. Still, I see the versatility in blowing twice as many strikes in a round as slightly more powerful than using one strike on two separate schmucks. It honestly may not be an entire maneuver level's worth of difference, but I still see it as something more powerful, despite the fact that there is choice on what to use any given swift action.

Milskidasith
2010-08-07, 01:59 AM
Considering boosts are, especially with lower level strikes, some of the most powerful things in the ToB, giving them up for a quickened lower level strike is almost never useful. And yes, I got confused and had things backwards on the immediate action thing; it doesn't limit your counters, but it does limit quicken a lot more.

Basically, my point is this: There are a bunch of boosts that are comparable in power to the strikes their level, and already quickened. Quicken strike is, compared to those, fairly worthless, because you're hitting with one really weak strike and one good one, when you could hit with one really good one boosted by a really good swift action boost as well; to use an example, Windmill Fleshrip + Time Stands Still is a lot more useful than Time Stands Still followed up by a Ruby nightmare blade (I think that's fourth level, I'm not sure.)

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-08-07, 02:05 AM
To be fair, Ruby Nightmare Blade would be pretty sweet on a power attack'd charge, but I do understand your point. I still personally see Quicken as slightly more powerful than Twin, but after this discussion probably not an entire level of maneuver's worth of difference.

Milskidasith
2010-08-07, 02:12 AM
To be fair, Ruby Nightmare Blade would be pretty sweet on a power attack'd charge, but I do understand your point. I still personally see Quicken as slightly more powerful than Twin, but after this discussion probably not an entire level of maneuver's worth of difference.

Considering the nature of manuevers, I highly doubt either of them would ever be really effective at all, save maybe using Twin on any manuever that's got a save or suck component attached. There was a tiger claw manuever that stunned with a DC equal to the jump check, but I think that was seventh level (swooping dragon strike, IIRC), so it couldn't be twinned.

Basically, I feel that, with the way the ToB works, quicken and twin are both far less useful than they would be for casters; your swifts are already being used, and frequently high level maneuvers give you more than lower level manuevers. Again, using Time Stands Still as an example, that's a lot better than two *insert strike here's* because, well, two full attacks is a hell of a lot, and two other strikes is a bit less so.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-08-07, 02:24 AM
True enough, but for either case, you are not necessarily removing your power to Time Stands Still your opponents to double full attack death, although such would be unlikely if you planned on using your highest level twin-able or quicken-able maneuver.

zagan
2010-08-07, 05:08 AM
Adapted Maneuver looks nice. It doesn't do too terribly much in practice, however, except for maybe granting an extra +1 to hit from either the weapon property or being a Swordsage as I can't think of any PrC abilities that trigger on certain disciplines.

It also affect a few feat such as, blade meditation (+1 to save DC only), desert fire, failling sun attack, stone power, tiger blooded and distant horizon.
The swordsage benefit more from insightfull strike class features. Blodd claw master also benefit (4th level ability), bloodstrom blade martial throw become way more versatile. And the discipline weapon special ability also benefit.

So yes it's not the strongest feat but in the right build I think it could be usefull.


-snip whole debate because it's too long-

Whoa I never expect that level of debate on that issue, but it's nice to see poeple are investing time in it.
What about making quicken maneuver a once per round free action like the first version of quicken spell before the addition of swift action to the game.
Or make it a move action after all once in place they don't need to move anymore ?
I was also thinking of adding the possibility of applying quicken to full-round action maneuver to make them into standard action one. Or make another feat just for that ?
Though ?

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-08-07, 06:02 AM
Ah, so it does do more than I initially though. This is what I get for only really ever paying attention to warblades and crusaders.

I'm personally against the move-action for quicken, as there are multiple ways to get free move actions fairly easy. Similarly, I'm against the full-round action application, but the once/turn free action may work out for it.

zagan
2010-08-07, 06:18 AM
Ah, so it does do more than I initially though. This is what I get for only really ever paying attention to warblades and crusaders.

I'm personally against the move-action for quicken, as there are multiple ways to get free move actions fairly easy. Similarly, I'm against the full-round action application, but the once/turn free action may work out for it.

I'll probably go with that but I'll wait to see Milskidasith as a better idea.

Milskidasith
2010-08-07, 11:24 AM
Once per turn free action is pretty useful, but I am not sure if that might not make it too good; for a warblade, you can recover maneuvers so easily that nova-ing is not a bad thing, especially considering you are generally going to be recovering your manuevers anyway when you've used your high level stuff.

zagan
2010-08-07, 11:36 AM
Once per turn free action is pretty useful, but I am not sure if that might not make it too good; for a warblade, you can recover maneuvers so easily that nova-ing is not a bad thing, especially considering you are generally going to be recovering your manuevers anyway when you've used your high level stuff.

Yeah, there's that. Still the idea of a quicken maneuver is really nice and I would like to keep it in some form. What could balance it ?

Edit: The only thing that come to mind is limiting it to once per encounter but that's a little extreme and it would be underpowered again.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-08-07, 02:37 PM
Perhaps make it use up the swift action, but also allow for that same swift action to activate a boost maneuver as well like dual-boost?

zagan
2010-08-07, 02:45 PM
Perhaps make it use up the swift action, but also allow for that same swift action to activate a boost maneuver as well like dual-boost?

That might work, I need to think on the wording. Thanks for the idea.

EDIT: Done ! Now i think it work and it's worth the cost of expanding a maneuver 4 level higher.

EDIT2: Add preserve maneuver, I'm not sure on this one particulary the name.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-08-07, 11:14 PM
The wording on "fused" looks good. Preserve looks okay as far as ideas go, but for execution, I'd almost rather it only take a maneuver of the same level. This may just be me, as that does end up turning it into a limited choice as to what you lose for your counter. As for a better name, I think simply changing it to "Preserved" may work.

zagan
2010-08-08, 04:47 AM
The wording on "fused" looks good. Preserve looks okay as far as ideas go, but for execution, I'd almost rather it only take a maneuver of the same level. This may just be me, as that does end up turning it into a limited choice as to what you lose for your counter. As for a better name, I think simply changing it to "Preserved" may work.

I've realised that I need to change the wording on fused because as written you can't use a boost of a level lower than the strike.

As for preserve I wasn't sure about that my first instinct was same level and looking at the aviable counter It's probably enough i'll change it.

EDIT: Okay, I've reworded fused maneuver and I've changed preserve into save maneuver, a much better name.

EDIT: Add extraordinary maneuver for swordsage, a little weak but could be useful if you regulary encounter Amf