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vollmond
2010-08-04, 05:05 PM
So I'm trying to get into a game and I would love to play a TWF melee character, preferably an elf. The game is using a modified version of gestalt, as outlined here:


Here's how we're going to do this. There are 6 tiers to classes. If you take a tier 1 class, your other half will not be a class but a bloodline from UA
tier 2 will either be a level 5 or 6 class or a bloodline
tier 3 will be 4-5-6 or bloodline
4 can be 3-6
5 or 6 can be 2-6. if you take 4 5 or 6, you can have a bonus bloodline(not a 20, but a 10)

It's not perfectly consistent, but you get the picture. Also: no multiclassing (aside from the gestalt itself) and no PrCs. Starting at level 5.

I'm leaning towards Ranger//Swordsage for my build. Trying to pick up anything that improves all attacks in a round; swordsage maneuvers seem to do well with that (the stance that gives SA, Burning Blade, etc). Ranger gets me the TWF feats and basic out-of-combat crunch to match my fluff (track, animal, etc). With Weapon Finesse and twinned short swords, the MAD at least matches up (Dex/Wis).

Are there better options, given this game's constraints, for making TWF competitive? Or would you think this plan is basically workable enough?

Oh, and here is the tier breakdown being used in the game, in case it's not the normal one:
Tier 1:
Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite

Tier 2:
Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)

Tier 3:
Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

Tier 4:
Examples: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant)

Tier 5:
Examples: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight

Tier 6:
Examples: CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner, Truenamer

deuxhero
2010-08-04, 05:07 PM
Dread Necro//Full BAB class dual lance charger on an undead mount! (note: I have heard of dual lance fighting before, but forget the mounted and TWF rules and if it really works)


Ranger fighting style is a poor way to get TWF (too slow a progression) unless you are dipping then using Gloves of Balanced Hands (MIC, gives TWF or ITWF if you have TWF, cheep) to get improved TWF (and you can't).

Ilmryn
2010-08-04, 05:13 PM
For catching up with damage, you definitely want the Shadow Blade feat from ToB. It lets you add your dex bonus to damage with Shadow hand weapons(for twf, use daggers), as long as you are in a shadow hand stance. The advantage to this is that you can apply the full bonus to damage to your off-hand weapon. Also, I think the dex bonus stacks with your str bonus for damage(however, there are conflicting feat descriptions). If your DM decides it doesn't stack, str becomes a perfect dump stat.

AslanCross
2010-08-04, 05:49 PM
Shadow Blade, definitely. Very important for any Dex-based Swordsage build.
You've already mentioned Assassin's Stance and Burning Blade, so you're good for that.

Flashing Sun is good for getting off more attacks per round.

Greenish
2010-08-04, 05:56 PM
With Weapon Finesse and twinned short swords, the MAD at least matches up (Dex/Wis).Reduce MAD: ditch Dex, pump strength. That way it won't cost you two feats to base your to-it and damage on another stat. Also, use kukris. The improved crit range is much better than the 1 extra average damage even before Blood in the Water.

Look into Sword of Arcane Order, there are quite a few wizard spells which are a great boon.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-04, 06:15 PM
Reduce MAD: ditch Dex, pump strength. That way it won't cost you two feats to base your to-it and damage on another stat. Also, use kukris. The improved crit range is much better than the 1 extra average damage even before Blood in the Water.

Look into Sword of Arcane Order, there are quite a few wizard spells which are a great boon.

True true, ranger TWF skips the pre-requisites.
Double Kukris, pump str and wis, flip the bird to dex. Concealment is where it's at o.O

avr
2010-08-04, 06:32 PM
I'd look at Rogue (UA Wilderness variant) // Warblade. More bonus damage (sneak attack is good for TWF), more staying power (HP, better recovery mechanic). Use Tiger Claw maneuvers with a splash of Iron Heart. You have to actually pay for the Track feat if you want it, but I think it'd be a tougher character.

tyckspoon
2010-08-04, 06:32 PM
Ranger fighting style is a poor way to get TWF (too slow a progression) unless you are dipping then using Gloves of Balanced Hands (MIC, gives TWF or ITWF if you have TWF, cheep) to get improved TWF (and you can't).

:smallconfused: It gets the TWF feats exactly when they first become available based on BAB. The only way you'll get them any faster is finding some way to ignore requirements altogether. Even going with the Gloves you'll get IWTF from the combat style at most one level after WBL covers the Gloves, and that's if you don't mind the Gloves being essentially the only item you own for level 5-6.

vollmond
2010-08-05, 09:56 AM
So the problem I'm seeing here is this: I want TWF with reasonable damage. I want to be an elf. I would really like an animal companion (good fluff and a flanker for SA). The other ranger fluffy bits (track, wild empathy, etc) I can just RP, but those 3 things are important.

I just don't think I can fit it all in, unless I satisfy myself with Swordsage as my only damage booster. Let's talk numbers. Dual light weapons, 2d6 SA from the stance, plus whatever fire damage I can wring out of Desert Wind (1d6 or 2d6 + IL) for a total of 5d6+5 ish damage per attack (not counting ability bonus), assuming the target is vulnerable to crits and fire. Hmm, that actually doesn't seem too horrible. And as soon as I level, I'll bump up to 4 attacks.

If, on the other hand, I go with Rogue//Swordsage, I'm looking at +3d6 from the rogue levels for 8d6+5 total (not counting ability bonus), but I lose the animal companion, I have to spend my feats on TWF, and I lose full BAB. I don't get iterative attacks until level 8 in this scenario.

All in all, it seems Ranger//Swordsage may be best, especially considering this is a PBP game (just how much will I actually level before people disappear?).

Thank you all for wonderful suggestions and some good places for me to look.

Keld Denar
2010-08-05, 10:55 AM
If you go with the above mentioned Warblade//Wilderness Rogue example, you can nab the Wild Cohort feat from the wizards website to get a pet. Elf isn't really a problem. You'll probably be pretty feat starved, especially if you want to squeeze in Track at lowish levels. If you don't mind dropping Track, you could do thus:

Wild Elf (+2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Cha) IIRC
1st TWF
3rd Wild Cohort
5th Improved Init
6th ITWF
8th Blindfighting
9th [feat]
12th GTWF
15th [feat]
18th [feat]

There are a couple other Warblade bonus feats in there I'm probably forgetting, but yea, thats the general concept. Elf, pet, skillz, survivability, damage, all the bases are covered, right?