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Forever Curious
2010-08-11, 02:38 AM
And I don't mean the magic items.

Around and about these boards I've heard of these Tomes that include various rules fixes for 3.5 D&D. What i would like to know is:

-what are they exactly?

-what makes them so good?

-where can i find them?

Coidzor
2010-08-11, 02:41 AM
Tome Races of War, Dungeonomicon, Tome of Necromancy (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29), and Tome of Fiends, (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_of_Fiends_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29) I think.

Frank and K, IIRC, some homebrew rules/fluff fixes/rationales.

http://sites.google.com/site/middendorfproject/frankpdf

Escheton
2010-08-11, 04:24 AM
Tome of Battle: Book of 9 swords gives melee options not unlike caster have them. In a defender, an offender and a magical sneak class.
Tome of Magic gives you magical classes that use a whole different system. Such as all day effects which depend on which spirit you invoke, an all you can cast class that increases the dc of a special skillcheck you have to make with each casting. And a shadowthemed class that lets you make the spells you know more innate as you progress.

Yora
2010-08-11, 04:34 AM
Tome of Magic is really a mixed blessing:
The Binder is generally seen as a both useful and interesting class and seems to be quite good.
The Shadowcaster is a good idea, but has a rediculously low amount of spells per day. There are however some simple fixes around, I heard.
And Truenamer are widely seen as the worst D&D class ever! Because the power level isn't just stagnating, its actually becoming worse as they go up the levels.

Tome of Battle is often said to fix many problems with melee characters.
However, there is quite a number of people who don't like it. As I see it, it just gives spellcasting to melee characters, which doesn't fix anything.

Eldan
2010-08-11, 04:43 AM
Wrong Tomes, people.

TK-Squared
2010-08-11, 04:49 AM
Tome Races of War, Dungeonomicon, Tome of Necromancy (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29), and Tome of Fiends, (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_of_Fiends_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29) I think.

Frank and K, IIRC, some homebrew rules/fluff fixes/rationales.

http://sites.google.com/site/middendorfproject/frankpdf


Races of War (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Races_of_War_(3.5e_Sourcebook)) and Dungeonomicon (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Dungeonomicon_(3.5e_Sourcebook)) also on that site. There's also the incomplete Book of Gears (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Book_of_Gears_(3.5e_Sourcebook)) which is by Frank and K, which tackles magic items.

Oslecamo
2010-08-11, 07:41 AM
-what are they exactly?

A series of homebrew works from Frank Trollman and K.



-what makes them so good?

Besides a funny read nothing really. While most "fixes" try to bring down the power level of the stronger stuff, the Tomes basic philosophy is "To infinity and beyond!". Everybody is assumed to be wish-chaining like there's no tomorrow. Some of their classes give you at-will time stop whitout any special cost. If you aren't throwing multiple save or die per turn you're doing it wrong. They make gold worthless and claim to have fixed the D&D economy only to add a soul market system that's as easy if not easier to break. If normal D&D is rocket-tag then the Tomes are death-star-on-steroids-tag.

If you think that basic D&D still wasn't crazy enough then the Tomes are for you. Otherwise they're good for some laughs because of the provocative way they're written and the ocasional sane idea buried in the middle of their sheer crazyness.



-where can i find them?

Several links posted already, but their main source would be the gaming den where they still keep making new stuff now and then.

Anyway the "official" Tomes of Tome of Magic and Tome of Battle are probably better.

Maerok
2010-08-11, 10:33 AM
Tome of Necromancy is the only one I'm familiar with to a great extent. Each of the PrCs is pretty (extremely) over the top, but I did a high level game using them one time and it was a good time. The philosophy aspect of it is nice and brings up some good points and it introduces easier access to being undead as a PC but your mileage may vary.

From what I've seen of Tome of Fiends, it's very useful for making NPC characters from scratch - at least that is how I've used it (I don't use fiendish 'races', but make them all unique).

But nothing of K's seems very balanced or playtested. It is fun, interesting stuff though. And at the end of the day the crazy, overpowered stuff isn't too off par with some of the delightful things WotC has put into print - the prestige classes might be better reserved for epic characters in some cases.

PId6
2010-08-11, 10:38 AM
They have their good and bad points. I wouldn't use any of the classes as is, but there are some good ideas in there. I especially love the Stranger with the Burning Eyes (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Stranger_with_the_Burning_Eyes_%283.5e_Prestige_Cl ass%29); such an awesome, epic class.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-11, 10:38 AM
The Tomes are an interesting but immense and incomplete undertaking. As Oslecamo says, rather than the usual attempts to nerf Tier-1 classes, the Tome series went the opposite way and tried to bring everyone up to their level (mostly... they do limit some of the most ridiculous things that Tier-1's can do - Pun-Pun could not happen in the Tomes, IIRC, for example). They expect people to have infinite Wishes by about level 17, if not sooner. And the Tomes are balanced around that.

It's a strange balance point to choose, but not an inherently invalid one, despite Oslecamo's derision. I haven't read them fully enough to see how well they measure up to this goal, but I've more-or-less liked what I've read of it. The Tome of Gears, in particular, I rather like the premise of (though it is the most incomplete).

Ultimately, I tend to doubt I'd enjoy playing under the Tomes. Too high-power for my tastes, and I'd guess that I tend to prefer things a bit higher-power than many here. But if one were interested in that kind of thing, they did put a lot of work and a fair amount of good thought into it.

The writing style is the other thing they're known for. It's highly... sarcastic, I suppose. Derisive, maybe. It can be amusing or grating depending on your own personality, I suppose.

Maerok
2010-08-11, 10:51 AM
I kind of like the classes since they're OP enough that you don't have to nit-pick on feats/skills/classes to make a useful character. It frees up some choices since working on building a character and making sure they are effective is too stressful for me :smalltongue:.

GreyMantle
2010-08-11, 09:30 PM
The philosophy with making the Tomes was basically "there are two options in making 3.x balanced: rewrite pretty much every single spell to bring them down to the rogue/monster level, or rewrite the classes that aren't as strong as the wizard/druid/cleric level. Option 2 is significantly less work than Option 1; therefore, that's what we'll do." And that's what they did, for the most part. There is a bit of a power creep between the Tomes (the Thief-Acrobat from the Tome of Fiends is notably weaker than, say, the Fighter from Races of War), but overall, the completed work succeeded in making the classes they wrote be of comparable power to the big spellcasters.

They're also notable for trying to make a D&D setting actually work the way the rules say it would probably work, rather than how the setting authors say it should function based on their notions of medieval fantasy. That is, they account for how things like Wishes, the Mentor feat, the social dynamics of a game where you spend most of your time walking into people's houses, stabbing them in the face, and taking their things, the necessity of magic items, and other things would affect a fantasy world's economy, kingdoms, behaviors, etc. This annoys a lot of people (because the more you pay attention to what the rules actually say, the less you're able to pretend Forgotten Realms or whatever makes sense).

As Maerok said, all of the Tome material is much more "obvious" in power than most things published by WotC. Rather than force you to look through a bunch of books or turn all the way to the spell descriptions to figure out how to win, the classes' class ability descriptions actually look and are powerful and useful.


I would recommend checking out The Gaming Den (tgdmb.com), which is where Frank and K and others currently lair. It can be kind of hard to get into, because there are like 10 or so posters that tend to dominate much of the discussion and the tone gets very vitriolic at times due to loose moderating, but TGD still has the best discussions on the intricacies of cooperative storytelling game mechanics that I have ever found on Teh Interwebz.

Malakar
2010-08-11, 10:04 PM
The philosophy with making the Tomes was basically "there are two options in making 3.x balanced: rewrite pretty much every single spell to bring them down to the rogue/monster level, or rewrite the classes that aren't as strong as the wizard/druid/cleric level. Option 2 is significantly less work than Option 1; therefore, that's what we'll do." And that's what they did, for the most part. There is a bit of a power creep between the Tomes (the Thief-Acrobat from the Tome of Fiends is notably weaker than, say, the Fighter from Races of War), but overall, the completed work succeeded in making the classes they wrote be of comparable power to the big spellcasters.

Slight correction, Thief Acrobat is Dungeonomicon. Also, side note, it was recently suggested to up to full BAB, which is a pretty big power up with the way feats work in Races of War.

My contribution to this thread: A lot of little nerfs get missed in the Tomes, like Teleport/Divination nerfs, Calling nerfs, Wish nerfs.

But while powering up everyone else to caster level is cool, I don't like that they seem to give out minions and Leadership like candy.

Highlights of the Tomes: Book of Gears items/Monk class/General Writing Style/Power level/Recognition of what at will abilities actually are, and why there should be like infinity more of them.

As for Oslecamo... Well aside from the vitrol and the claim about not fixing the economy, which I'll leave for someone else with better understanding then me: The Time Stop at will you get at level 19, and it costs 3/5ths of your main casting mechanic to get it, and the only other thing it gives you is at will abilities to slow down your opponents, like Forcecages and Resilient Spheres, but no way to actually buff or anything to take advantage of said Time Stop.

I don't think 3/5ths of your main class ability counts as "no cost."

Coidzor
2010-08-11, 10:46 PM
I personally found them to be quite fascinating reads, and they turned me on to being curious as to what's been homebrewed out there that's worth the time that was put into it.

GreyMantle
2010-08-11, 11:07 PM
Slight correction, Thief Acrobat is Dungeonomicon. Also, side note, it was recently suggested to up to full BAB, which is a pretty big power up with the way feats work in Races of War.

My contribution to this thread: A lot of little nerfs get missed in the Tomes, like Teleport/Divination nerfs, Calling nerfs, Wish nerfs.

But while powering up everyone else to caster level is cool, I don't like that they seem to give out minions and Leadership like candy.

Highlights of the Tomes: Book of Gears items/Monk class/General Writing Style/Power level/Recognition of what at will abilities actually are, and why there should be like infinity more of them.

As for Oslecamo... Well aside from the vitrol and the claim about not fixing the economy, which I'll leave for someone else with better understanding then me: The Time Stop at will you get at level 19, and it costs 3/5ths of your main casting mechanic to get it, and the only other thing it gives you is at will abilities to slow down your opponents, like Forcecages and Resilient Spheres, but no way to actually buff or anything to take advantage of said Time Stop.

I don't think 3/5ths of your main class ability counts as "no cost."


Oops. My bad.

But how exactly do the Tomes hand out Leadership like candy? Skimming through the pdf, only the Knight, the Barbarian, and the Marshall automatically get a Leadership feat. And the Barb doesn't get one until level 11, which means that it's not even going to come up in a lot of games. FnK also explicitly say in the Leadership section that Leadership feats are not for every game.

Honestly, I see the Leadership thing as more of a flavor bonus. I mean, having 25 level 3 dudes when you're level 10 is fun, but you're going to have no use for them in a dungeon. They're just going to do things like carry your stuff for you, clean your fortress, etc. Even a cohort is going to be better served by activities like making magic items for you, guarding important things, doing important sidequests, or filling roles in a small party-all things that will make the game run more smoothly. The simple fact that a doubling of party size will make battles and such run even slower than they already do in 3.5 is going to keep most people from trying to have their cohorts help with all of their fighting.

To add to your taking issue with Osclecamo's umbrage with at-will time stop: Time Stop is a level 19 ability. How many games have you played that actually go up until level 19? And when you factor in the fact that Tome battles run more slowly than non-Tome games because non-casters tend to have a lot more to choose from and the fact that you can tell most fantasy stories in a < Level 15 Tome game, the number of games where at-will Time Stop is actually going to come up in shockingly few.

icefractal
2010-08-12, 12:14 AM
The Tomes are on the higher end, power-wise, but not actually as overwhelming as they appear at first glance. In a campaign with characters like straight sword-n-board Fighter, or blasting-based Wizard, they'd be over the top. But compared to battlefield-control Wizards and touch attacking Rogues, they're pretty much on target.

The thing that makes them look crazy though, is that they're upfront in what they give you. So while a standard WotC class might give you something like "+2 to AC", and then have that stack with some other things to be +6 and then with the right spell you can double it to +12, the Tome class would just say "+12 to AC, straight up". It should be noted that the Tome classes are designed to be effective without dumpster-diving, so if you start with a Tome class and then add cheese on top of it, that probably will be overpowered.

They also frequently grant large bonuses to things that aren't the class's primary focus, on the basis that even with the large bonus, it's still not quite as good as your main tactics, so all you're really gaining is a small amount of versatility. But when you just look at the class feature in isolation, the numbers can look huge.

That said, some of the Tome-inspired community material on TGD does have a significant amount of power creep from the Tomes themselves.


Edit: Also, even if you don't have any interest in the mechanics, a lot of the Tome material is worth checking out for the class and setting concepts. The idea behind almost every PrC in the Tome of Necromancy would make a good BBEG, for instance.

Milskidasith
2010-08-12, 12:47 AM
The one thing I remember from the Tomes is that, IIRC, every fighter gets a class feature that is a one per round "The opponent can't do anything no save, decent range, can be taken out of turn, uses an immediate or free [can't recall] action" that basically makes them incapable of ever losing a 1v1 fight due to the sheer fact they automatically infinitely lock down all people.

Making everything T1 really doesn't help balance, because the point of T1 is it can win at everything. Even if you can have opponents that fight at that level, which is vastly more work, it's on a knife's edge of balance between instagibbing or being instagibbed (so rocket tag, but with a possible plateau of MAD in a small margin). Balancing towards T3 is better, since you can at least gauge your chances before you're dead/the enemy is dead.

Kylarra
2010-08-12, 12:57 AM
It's an amusing read to be sure, but at a higher power level than my tastes.

Dante & Vergil
2010-08-12, 02:23 AM
Yes, a lot of there stuff is extremely strong, but there are a few gems that are good ideas for some normal games, like their undead creation feats and rules are good, as are the "monsters as pcs" rules.

Oslecamo
2010-08-12, 04:04 AM
My contribution to this thread: A lot of little nerfs get missed in the Tomes, like Teleport/Divination nerfs, Calling nerfs, Wish nerfs.

Calling wasn't nerfed at all last time I checked. Wish nerfs are useless because in any sane D&D game anyone trying to chain wishes would get hit by the DMG, while in Tome game you're assumed to spam wishes all you want, resulting in infinite scrolls and candles of invocation. Even with the best reading of the new item rules (wich are quite poorly worded as it is) that's still easily abuseable.



As for Oslecamo... Well aside from the vitrol and the claim about not fixing the economy, which I'll leave for someone else with better understanding then me: The Time Stop at will you get at level 19, and it costs 3/5ths of your main casting mechanic to get it, and the only other thing it gives you is at will abilities to slow down your opponents, like Forcecages and Resilient Spheres, but no way to actually buff or anything to take advantage of said Time Stop.

You get infinite scrolls/candle of invocation even with all the "nerfs". And even whitout those you still just need a little imagination to abuse at-will time stop. Infinity-1 is still Infinity. Not to mention a few of the Tomes own feats would allow you to easily bypass the above restriction.



I don't think 3/5ths of your main class ability counts as "no cost."
Again, when your power level is infinite to begin with (infinite scrolls and other cheap expendable magic items), losing 3/5 of your class still leaves you able to roll over anything out there. Even whitout those and whitout imagination a little work and you could easily use the remaining 2/5 to abuse it.

Main point is, like already pointed out by icefractal, the tomes classes are extremely strong whitout optimization. When you start puting optimization on top (like a little imagination+at will time stop) then they go broke pretty fast.

Wich isn't how wizards and clerics work. Fireball wizard and healbot cleric don't scare anyone.

Malakar
2010-08-12, 07:22 AM
Calling wasn't nerfed at all last time I checked. Wish nerfs are useless because in any sane D&D game anyone trying to chain wishes would get hit by the DMG, while in Tome game you're assumed to spam wishes all you want, resulting in infinite scrolls and candles of invocation. Even with the best reading of the new item rules (wich are quite poorly worded as it is) that's still easily abuseable.

1) Candle's of Invocation don't exist. 2) Calling was nerfed in the big section on calling in the Tome of Fiends. 3) The point of Wish nerfs is that they make it so you a) can't chain wishes and b) when you do use Wish, that's totally fine and in the power level you are supposed to be in.



You get infinite scrolls/candle of invocation even with all the "nerfs". And even whitout those you still just need a little imagination to abuse at-will time stop. Infinity-1 is still Infinity. Not to mention a few of the Tomes own feats would allow you to easily bypass the above restriction.

Again, when your power level is infinite to begin with (infinite scrolls and other cheap expendable magic items), losing 3/5 of your class still leaves you able to roll over anything out there. Even whitout those and whitout imagination a little work and you could easily use the remaining 2/5 to abuse it..

So basically, if someone had some sort of fix that prevented you from abusing infinite scrolls, like in the Book of Gears or something, that fix would instantly remove all your problems and you would have nothing to complain about?

Aran Banks
2010-08-29, 07:56 PM
Tome conversations!!

This (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Tome) (the first 5 links) is the tomes.

They're a bunch of high-power classes and feats (and even races!) created by Frank Trollman and Keith (and people at tgdmb.com) to address the problems of conflicting balance between classes. If you wanted to be a samurai, you had to accept sucking. If you wanted to play a wizard, you had to be OP.

So everything just got bumped up to wizard-level. At really high levels of power, it's actually much easier to make class features, because you have so much freedom.

[Tome] also fixed items with the Book of Gears. Which is awesome, and is probably the most relevant book to any game.

Zaq
2010-08-30, 02:18 AM
I only have one real problem with Frank and K's tomes. When you read through them, you come across parts where they're simply explaining the logical natural consequences of the D&D world as written and presented by WotC... and then suddenly, without warning, there's a reinterpretation of the rules, or a new set of houserules, or however you want to put it. In other words, it's hard to tell when they're simply explaining existing material in that interesting way of theirs, and when they're actually introducing new material to replace or supplement the old. I don't think that there's a good solution to it (for them to divide up the Tomes into neatly labeled "THIS IS NEW" and "THIS IS NOT" sections would be inelegant at best), but it is still often kind of jarring. In fact, sometimes this holds true for fluff... some of their fluff is totally new, and some of it is just explaining what's been written. You can tell the difference if you know your stuff and keep on the lookout, but you still have to do so.

Overall, I do really like what they set out to do. A definite jump in power, as the others have said, but nonetheless a very interesting read, one way or another.

Prime32
2010-08-30, 07:38 AM
Chapter 2 of Races of War (Playing Unusual Races (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Playing_Unusual_Races)) and the rules for undead PCs (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/New_Rules) in Tome of Necromancy are probably the most popular sections of the Tomes, and the most likely to be allowed in a normal game. Note that the latter nerfs undead to make them more playable.

I've seen a few games where particularly weak feats were replaced with their Tome versions.

Oslecamo
2010-08-30, 08:19 AM
They're a bunch of high-power classes and feats (and even races!) created by Frank Trollman and Keith (and people at tgdmb.com) to address the problems of conflicting balance between classes. If you wanted to be a samurai, you had to accept sucking. If you wanted to play a wizard, you had to be OP.

I have to be honest, I never realized fireball and magic missile were OP.:smallamused:



So everything just got bumped up to wizardpun-pun-level.

Fixed that for you. Because normal wizards aren't casting time stop at will last time I checked.




[Tome] also fixed items with the Book of Gears. Which is awesome, and is probably the most relevant book to any game.

Hmm, no they didn't. Book of Gears never got finished to start with, and as it stands it gives you infinite scrolls, candles of invocation and other consumables to go to town. No it doesn't matter if they put an arbitary limitation on self-buffs when you can stop time for all eternity for your character to do whatever he wants.

Malakar
2010-08-30, 08:35 AM
Fixed that for you. Because normal wizards aren't casting time stop at will last time I checked.

Nor is anyone in the Tome rules before level 19, and then only at the cost of not being able to do much in a Time Stop.


Hmm, no they didn't. Book of Gears never got finished to start with, and as it stands it gives you infinite scrolls, candles of invocation and other consumables to go to town. No it doesn't matter if they put an arbitary limitation on self-buffs when you can stop time for all eternity for your character to do whatever he wants.

First of all, Book of Gears doesn't give you infinite scrolls, because Book of Gears doesn't say anything about scrolls. The reason you have infinite scrolls is because the Core rules give you infinite scrolls.

Second, what are you going to do in a perpetual Time Stop other than buff that matters?

Third, And so again, if they have a fix that prevents you from using scrolls to Time Stop over and over, would you then have any problem with the Tomes, or would you ignore this question so that you can continue to pursue your grudge against some homebrew you don't like for reasons that has nothing to do with using scrolls of Time Stop over and over?

Amphetryon
2010-08-30, 08:56 AM
1) Candle's of Invocation don't exist.

vs.


infinite scrolls, candles of invocation
Sounds like you're not reading from the same sources. :smallwink:

Oslecamo
2010-08-30, 08:56 AM
Nor is anyone in the Tome rules before level 19, and then only at the cost of not being able to do much in a Time Stop.

Infinite scrolls of time stop at lv1. You don't even need to be a warlock.



First of all, Book of Gears doesn't give you infinite scrolls, because Book of Gears doesn't say anything about scrolls. The reason you have infinite scrolls is because the Core rules give you infinite scrolls.

Wich most DMs fix by themselves, while tomes un-fixes that by saying infinite item loops are fine and dandy as long as they cost less than 15.000 GP.



Second, what are you going to do in a perpetual Time Stop other than buff that matters?

-You can go anywhere, ignore all traps and retrieve whatever you want.
-If you even bother with combat (because you don't, as you can loot whatever you want and nobody can do anything about it), you can build all kind of fun traps. Now you're there. And now you're inside walls of force filled with lava. Or rocks are falling over you for some millions damage.
-Even whitout the above you can still re-shape the battlefield whatever form you want so you know where everybody is and when you get out of time stop everybody has walls blocking their LoS and effect.




Third, And so again, if they have a fix that prevents you from using scrolls to Time Stop over and over, would you then have any problem with the Tomes, or would you ignore this question so that you can continue to pursue your grudge against some homebrew you don't like for reasons that has nothing to do with using scrolls of Time Stop over and over?

On the contrary, the infinite time stop is just one of the many problems, but in order to enumerate them properly I would be basically writing the tomes series again. If you choose to ignore all the problems with it it's up to you but don't pretend they aren't there.

Basically, for a homebrew that claims to "fix", the tomes are mainly adding new problems that are as easy if not easier to abuse than the basic rules.

Malakar
2010-08-30, 09:25 AM
Infinite scrolls of time stop at lv1. You don't even need to be a warlock.

Please explain how a level 1 character can get infinite scrolls at level 1.


-You can go anywhere, ignore all traps and retrieve whatever you want.
-If you even bother with combat (because you don't, as you can loot whatever you want and nobody can do anything about it), you can build all kind of fun traps. Now you're there. And now you're inside walls of force filled with lava. Or rocks are falling over you for some millions damage.
-Even whitout the above you can still re-shape the battlefield whatever form you want so you know where everybody is and when you get out of time stop everybody has walls blocking their LoS and effect.

"You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.

...You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop."

So clearly you can't loot anything that anyone has on them, or that is in an AMF, and so that's most items you can't loot, I can imagine you might want to do something at some point. But I see that this objection is based on the infinite scrolls obsession, and not on the Conduit, since the Conduit can't do that, so I guess we are back to: Do you have any problems at all that aren't fixed by fixing infinite scrolls?


On the contrary, the infinite time stop is just one of the many problems, but in order to enumerate them properly I would be basically writing the tomes series again. If you choose to ignore all the problems with it it's up to you but don't pretend they aren't there.

But it's the only one you ever mention. You mention it six or seven times per post, but only ever that one. It's almost like all your other objections are personal issues that aren't actually problems but are just the fact that you don't like them, and you know that talking about them won't give you as much anti-Tome traction.


Basically, for a homebrew that claims to "fix", the tomes are mainly adding new problems that are as easy if not easier to abuse than the basic rules.

Yeah, problems like infinite scrolls that was already there and not added by the Tomes and... Oh right, other nameless problems that are surely a big deal and you just don't mention because you don't have time.

WinWin
2010-08-30, 09:53 AM
I personally like the tomes for the fluff. The monk and fighter fixes seem OK but I have never tested them in a game.

As for wish and loops? They have been around since I was playing 2e. They probably existed in Advanced, if it matters. Rather than attempt to do away with power gaming, metagaming and TO, the tomes are up front about it, which puts a lot of people off.

I have not played in a long campaign where some kind of gentlemans agreement was not in effect. I assume the same goes for a tome game, given that the classes themselves have enough power. Resorting to dirty tricks in order to succeed is simply not needed. Unless you inted to break a game for the lulz...In which case I hope you find tolerant or like-minded people to play with.

Esser-Z
2010-08-30, 09:54 AM
Tome of Battle is the bestest 3.5 splatbook.

Oslecamo
2010-08-30, 10:28 AM
I have not played in a long campaign where some kind of gentlemans agreement was not in effect. I assume the same goes for a tome game, given that the classes themselves have enough power. Resorting to dirty tricks in order to succeed is simply not needed. Unless you inted to break a game for the lulz...In which case I hope you find tolerant or like-minded people to play with.

The like-minded people would be the tome creators themselves as they specifically base their world on infinite item loops. The tomes gives "dirty tricks" to everything and everybody and pretends it's balance. However, everything being broken doesn't mean nothing is broken. It simply means everything is broken.

Malakar
2010-08-30, 11:17 AM
The like-minded people would be the tome creators themselves as they specifically base their world on infinite item loops. The tomes gives "dirty tricks" to everything and everybody and pretends it's balance. However, everything being broken doesn't mean nothing is broken. It simply means everything is broken.

And how do you define broken? As far as I can tell, your definition is "I don't like it."

See, my definition of broken is that it makes the game unplayable.

Nothing about the Fighter and Wizard and Conduit and Barbarian and Samurai and Cleric being powerful breaks the game as far as I can tell. It means you can't use weak CR monsters and pushover NPCs, but that's not any different from the optimization that already takes place in 3.5 since it was already true of Wizards and Clerics anyway.

I absolutely agree that the infinite scroll problem represents actual game breakingness, since you can't even play the game with that. But if you actually fix that one thing, Even the infinite items under 15,000gp is not a problem at all, since it only starts at level 9 at the earliest, and the Book of Gears prevents items other than scrolls (and to a lesser extent, wands and potions) from being a problem.

As far as I can tell, infinite scrolls is the only thing actually broken anywhere in the Tomes, and since it's also broken but worse in regular D&D, and can be fixed, once it is fixed, I don't see anything broken about it.

Esser-Z
2010-08-30, 12:08 PM
The like-minded people would be the tome creators themselves as they specifically base their world on infinite item loops. The tomes gives "dirty tricks" to everything and everybody and pretends it's balance. However, everything being broken doesn't mean nothing is broken. It simply means everything is broken.

I... what? I don't even... Being able to do more than just roll an attack roll is broken? I... what.




As far as I can tell, infinite scrolls is the only thing actually broken anywhere in the Tomes, and since it's also broken but worse in regular D&D, and can be fixed, once it is fixed, I don't see anything broken about it.

Well, if we're going strictly RAW, Iron Heart Surge is broken do to extreme vagueness. And White Raven Tactics could be interpreted to be broken, instead of just cool. Arcane Swordsage variant might be a bit up there (effectively at will arcane spells!), but that's a variant suggestion, not actual content.

But in general, yeah. Nothing broken to the extent that Core is, for sure.

Wait, was Truenamer Tome of Magic? IF so, there's a broken thing in the Tomes. In the sense that it doesn't work.

Prime32
2010-08-30, 12:56 PM
Tome of Battle is the bestest 3.5 splatbook.
Wait, was Truenamer Tome of Magic? IF so, there's a broken thing in the Tomes. In the sense that it doesn't work.We're not talking about Tome of Battle and Tome of Magic. We're talking about the Frank & K Tomes.

Esser-Z
2010-08-30, 12:57 PM
That's what I get for posting before reading everything.

Chambers
2010-08-30, 02:04 PM
The thing I like the most about the Tomes are the Feats that scale with either BAB or Skill Ranks. They are a big boost in power to non-primary casters and are about the only thing I might use from the Tomes in an otherwise non-Tome game.

Aran Banks
2010-08-30, 02:34 PM
The like-minded people would be the tome creators themselves as they specifically base their world on infinite item loops. The tomes gives "dirty tricks" to everything and everybody and pretends it's balance. However, everything being broken doesn't mean nothing is broken. It simply means everything is broken.

Y'know Oslecamo, I agree with you. These problems are everywhere in D&D. In fact, I've got a couple good splatbooks for you to read; they deal with a lot of 3.5 D&D's problems.

What are they called again? Oh, yeah.

The Tomes. Read them and get back to me.

EDIT:


Something about wizards using fireball and magic missile

Warmage.

Malakar
2010-08-30, 02:43 PM
The Tomes. Read them and get back to me.

I wouldn't get your hopes up, this thread died the first time because I called him on the existence of Candle's of Invocation and the calling nerfs, but that hasn't stopped him from claiming that Candle's of Invocation exist.

Aran Banks
2010-08-30, 02:50 PM
I wouldn't get your hopes up, this thread died the first time because I called him on the existence of Candle's of Invocation and the calling nerfs, but that hasn't stopped him from claiming that Candle's of Invocation exist.

Flamers gotta flame...

Machaeus
2010-09-16, 12:04 AM
The level of detail given over to what characters have in their pockets and saddle bags varies tremendously from game to game. And that’s fine. There is nothing objectively wrong with characters keeping track of every single quart of oil that passes through your character’s hands, just as there is nothing wrong with hand waving all non-magical equipment. In fact, when characters start interacting with the wish economy it is perfectly OK to handwave a character’s minor magic items (we’ll just assume that a 16th level Ranger has a wand of cure light wounds in his boot – it’s seriously not worth keeping track of).

If there aren't candles of invocation, it's because they're left out. But wands are left out too, and the book sure mentions them. And since when is 50d8+50 damage healed isn't worth keeping track of?


A wish can produce any one of the following effects.

Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.

Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.

Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.

Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.

Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.

Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.

Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.

Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.

Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.

Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells).


Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

Yeah, I don't think he's blowing smoke.

The fact is, the Tome Rules are not for everyone. I mainly can't stand them for the snark and sarcasm that could gag a maggot made of snark and sarcasm. Moreso, the flavor is, as has been said, assuming everyone will chain-bind djinn and that it's totally okay. Since you're obviously of that mindset, lemme clarify something.

If the djinn aren't infuriated, and I mean absolutely foaming at the mouth, at their people being chain-bound for wishes, the gods will be. Assuming the various genies don't all congregate and exterminate you as a threat permanently, the gods will because you're ****ing up their world. Meaning, frankly, that the DM is within his rights to say "By doing this, you kill your character. No save." And you have no right to argue, because you went there in the first place.

In other words, it's not the game's fault. It's the player's, and the DM's. Game balance is literally impossible - no one design team can out-think their entire audience, especially when multiple books are thrown out and you don't have control over what each one says.


I suppose it's like going to a special effects-laden movie to look for the wires, or reading historical fiction just to find the anachronisms. It's a strangely cynical and negative pursuit. It's also completely missing the point.

Truer words have never been spoken about looking for ways to break the game, and that is what the Tomes are all about, in my eyes.

Dante & Vergil
2010-09-16, 01:44 AM
I say the Tomes can be pretty bad, but they do have good ideas in them, so it works for me. Just be glad you didn't see some of the classes other people made over at the Gaming Den. They are much worse.

Malakar
2010-09-16, 05:06 AM
If there aren't candles of invocation, it's because they're left out. But wands are left out too, and the book sure mentions them. And since when is 50d8+50 damage healed isn't worth keeping track of?

No, Candle's of Invocation are not left off they are specifically called out as not existing. Wands are specifically called out as existing.

And no, at level 11, 50d8+50 Hp is not worth keeping track of, just like 550hp flat of a wand of Lesser Vigor is not worth keeping track of, because it is a trivial amount of money to maintain the entire party at full HP after every fight, so trivial that doing so for five levels will cost less than the difference between selling one item for gold vs using it.


Yeah, I don't think he's blowing smoke.

Yes he is, and you are.

The actual rules:


Free Wishes – the following wishes have no XP cost:
– Wealth: A character can wish for mundane wealth whose total value is 25,000 gp or less.
– Magic Item: A character can wish for a magic item that costs 15,000 gp or less.
– Power: A character can wish to increase an inherent bonus to any attribute by 1 (to a maximum of +5)
– Spell: A character can wish for the effects of any spell that lacks an XP cost that is lower level than the highest level spell in its spell list (a wizard spell of 8th level or less, or a paladin spell of 3rd level or less, for example).
– Transport: A character can wish herself and 1 other willing creature per caster level to any location on any plane.

Wishes that aren't Free – the following wishes cost XP or gp or both:
– Add to the Powers of a Magic Item: A character can increase the powers of a magic item to anything she could enhance it to with her own item creation feats. This requires 1 XP for every 10 gp increase in magic item value.
– Raise the Dead: A character can bring the dead back to "life", even if they were an undead, construct, or other creature that cannot normally be brought back to life. This may even be able to bring back a creature who has been devoured by a Barghest (50% chance of success). This costs 3,000 XP, which can be paid in any combination by the caster or the target. The spent XP for this wish can reduce a character's level, but coming back to life in this manner otherwise won't do so.
– Undo Misfortune: A character can wish back the sands of time in order to force events of the last round to be replayed. Time can be reset to any point back to the character's previous initiative pass. This use costs 1000 XP. While the action spent to cast wish in this case is restored, the character still loses the spell slot and XP used to power it.
– Turn Back Time: A poorly fated adventure can be averted entirely with a wish. The character expends the slot and pays 5,000 xp, and none of it ever happened.
Wishes that are Rituals – some wishes have much greater costs, at the whim of the DM. Here is an example:
– Become a new Creature: A character can wish themselves into being a new creature. This must be done when a character is eligible to gain a new level, and the character makes the wish and takes a level of the new racial class (or racial paragon class) and is now the new race.


Any use of wish causes the wisher to become fatigued (and yes, there are ways to get around that).

Creatures with spell-like abilities that grant wishes may only grant wishes that have no XP cost. So an Efreet can give you as many +2 swords as it wants, but an Efreet can't give in to your request to have a +3 sword. Also, you'll notice that we categorize the inherent bonuses as something that's free and therefore going to be rapidly available to all the player characters somewhere between 11th and 15th levels. That's because we seriously believe that it is more balanced for characters to all gain +5 inherent bonuses than it is for some characters to figure out how to manipulate XP gains and thought bottles to get inherent bonuses while the other players don't. Inherent bonuses need to be available or not available to everyone or they break the game.

Magic items with wish on them can be used to cast wishes with an XP cost of at most 5,000 XP, and are produced as items using spells with a cost of 5,000 XP. As a result, you can't wish for an item that has wish on it.

Yes, if you assume that the Tome rules don't change the Core rules, they don't change anything. But since they specifically change what Wish does... Yes, they do in fact not allow that.

Seriously.


Moreso, the flavor is, as has been said, assuming everyone will chain-bind djinn and that it's totally okay.

No, the Flavor, and the mechanics, actually make it impossible to Chain Bind efferti.

It is literally impossible under Tome rules to Chain Bind Efferti.

Please describe the process of Chain Binding them, and I will show how that is actually impossible under Tome rules.

And since you can't Chain Bind, but can only regular Bind, just like you can do with Glabrezu and Xorn and anyone else, there is no reason for them to get up in arms and kill you, since you are individually making deals with each one anyway.

Oslecamo
2010-09-16, 08:58 AM
Please describe the process of Chain Binding them, and I will show how that is actually impossible under Tome rules.


By all means, you first wish for a partially charged wand of magic circle against evil, another of dimensional anchor, then for each efreeti a scroll of planar biding.

It takes a little longer but as long as you have charges on the wands of magic and dimensional anchor circle you call efreeti, one wish for you,another for him, a third for a new scroll, and there comes another efreeti with 3 wishes, neting you one wish profit per iteration. Make sure to now and then get new wands and you can get infinite scrolls/wands of whatever you want!

See, you just need to improvise a little, and the smoke goes away revealing the horrible truth behind.

Machaeus
2010-09-16, 09:25 AM
No, Candle's of Invocation are not left off they are specifically called out as not existing. Wands are specifically called out as existing.

Couldn't find that in my version. If I'm honestly mistaken, please link me to the version you are using. I'm using 0.7rev99, if that helps.


And no, at level 11, 50d8+50 Hp is not worth keeping track of, just like 550hp flat of a wand of Lesser Vigor is not worth keeping track of, because it is a trivial amount of money to maintain the entire party at full HP after every fight, so trivial that doing so for five levels will cost less than the difference between selling one item for gold vs using it.

Erm. So it's not worth keeping track of because they make a bunch of assumptions about the economy? Real-world-grounded assumptions, but come on...who honestly looks that in-depth at a game about fighting dragons and demons with magic and swords?


Yes he is, and you are.

The actual rules:

As said above, if your version is more recent, then they may have changed that. If my version is more recent, then your entire argument is invalid.


Yes, if you assume that the Tome rules don't change the Core rules, they don't change anything. But since they specifically change what Wish does... Yes, they do in fact not allow that.

Seriously.

Again, see above.


No, the Flavor, and the mechanics, actually make it impossible to Chain Bind efferti.

It is literally impossible under Tome rules to Chain Bind Efferti.

Please describe the process of Chain Binding them, and I will show how that is actually impossible under Tome rules.

And since you can't Chain Bind, but can only regular Bind, just like you can do with Glabrezu and Xorn and anyone else, there is no reason for them to get up in arms and kill you, since you are individually making deals with each one anyway.

Again, see above.


EDIT: Perhaps I should say something. I loathe the Tomes mostly, as said, for the snark. I dislike the mechanical take on the game ("To infinity and beyond!" as said), and the philosophy ("It's totally okay to break the game, because everybody's doing it and that's the only fun way to play anymore"). But what I find is that there are occasional gems of fact. Facts of diamond in what I perceive as a sea of crap, at best. At worst, carp. It's almost not worth it to dig through for the good stuff.

Example:


Win: The Warmage wins the game. There is no saving throw for this. Note that this doesn’t actually affect the game.

How can you take it seriously when someone writes something like that?

Malakar
2010-09-16, 01:09 PM
By all means, you first wish for a partially charged wand of magic circle against evil, another of dimensional anchor, then for each efreeti a scroll of planar biding.

It takes a little longer but as long as you have charges on the wands of magic and dimensional anchor circle you call efreeti, one wish for you,another for him, a third for a new scroll, and there comes another efreeti with 3 wishes, neting you one wish profit per iteration. Make sure to now and then get new wands and you can get infinite scrolls/wands of whatever you want!

See, you just need to improvise a little, and the smoke goes away revealing the horrible truth behind.

And here's what actually happens in that situation. First, you Planar Bind an efferti. Doesn't much matter how you do this, because we apparently all think it's fine to do so normally, by casting the spell, as long as they can't wish you up more stuff. Then you wish for one single item, a wand of whatever. And then the Efferti leaves.

Because:
When you cast a calling spell, you are bargaining for a single service. While normal bargaining could get you more complex arrangements, conjuring magic that calls real creatures can only force compliance to single services.


Things you can ask a creature to do:
...
Use a single use of one of its own abilities.

But let's say you bring your own Partially charged wands to the table, or you are a level 11 Wizard who uses multiple Planar Bindings to get the wands and the scroll.

Then this is what happens when you try to use the scroll to Planar Bind:

1) First, he makes a will save against DC 17 with his +13 Will save. If he succeeds, you got nothing for that scroll.

2) If he fails, then you call him, and let's just assume you automatically win all Cha checks. Great, so you can make him comply with single service, aka one use of wish. Which you use to get a scroll of Planar Binding.

And then he leaves, and you are just getting wishes slower than a Wizard who actually just uses Planar Binding and doesn't try to chain wishes. And if you are so low level that you can't Planar Bind yourself, than someone else giving you a free scroll of Planar Binding can't give you more than one wish ever.


Couldn't find that in my version. If I'm honestly mistaken, please link me to the version you are using. I'm using 0.7rev99, if that helps.

This alone demonstrates that you don't actually understand what the Tomes are. The Tomes are material written by Frank Trollman and K. As such, their versions, available in a stickied thread on TGD, a place you've obviously been if you can talk about the Warmage level 20 ability, is the most official one. This includes the Unfinished Materials which features the Magic Item rules from Book of Gears, and also the WBL post where Frank separates out Core item abilities into Minor, Medium, Major, and Banned Magic items. A Category which includes:

# Candle of Invocation and anything else that causes players to count as higher level than they are.
# Belt of Magnificence and anything else that breaks the 8 item limit on purpose.
# Luck Stone, and anything else that exists to provide non-standard stackabonuses.
# 3 Wishes, or even 1 wish. Or really anything that simply and directly interacts with the Wish Economy.
# Monk's Belt, Druid Vestments, and anything else that allows you to be another class with a UMD roll.
# Boccob's Book, Golem Manuals, and any other magic item that shunts Magic costs around.

The fact that you think a version number on a pdf that a) Is a fanmade compilation, not anything official, determines whether or not the rules of Tome are X or Y, is really exactly the type of thing that annoys me, like Oslecamo thinking you can have the Efferti wish three times. When people who don't actually know the rules try to tell me the consequences of the rules, it gets a little annoying.


Erm. So it's not worth keeping track of because they make a bunch of assumptions about the economy? Real-world-grounded assumptions, but come on...who honestly looks that in-depth at a game about fighting dragons and demons with magic and swords?

Um... It's not looking in depth or making assumption to say "A level 13 character can either have a +4 Longsword of Lifestealing, or they can settle for a +4 Sword of Wounding and have 40 Wands of Lesser Vigor. Or, they can luckily roll a Sword of Lifestealing, and also have the 40 Wands. So instead, let's just assume that if they want a wand of lesser vigor, they can damn well just have it, Sword of Lifestealing or Sword of Wounding."

It's just making play simpler and more fun.


As said above, if your version is more recent, then they may have changed that. If my version is more recent, then your entire argument is invalid.

As I said above, My source is the one written by Frank Trollman, not compiled by a completely unrelated person who happens to be a fan.

Additionally, I will point out that version whatever almost certainly has the same wish text as the original Frank written document, you just don't know where to look for it, and so erroneously choose to pretend that the Wish spell is identical in Tome to the Core one, even though it was specifically mentioned multiple times in this thread that it was changed.


Example:

"Win: The Warmage wins the game. There is no saving throw for this. Note that this doesn’t actually affect the game."

How can you take it seriously when someone writes something like that?

What do you mean by "it"?

I am perfectly capable of taking The Tomes as a whole seriously, even when someone who is not any more in touch with Frank Trollman than I am decides to write their own class on a forum that just happens to include a joke class feature.

In fact, I can go farther, and recognize that a single class feature at level 20 being a joke does not make the entire class a joke, and the rest of the abilities must be evaluated on their own merits.

And if the result is "At levels 1-19, you have a class with better fluff and mechanics than the WotC Warmage. And at level 20, you have a class with better fluff and mechanics than a WotC Warmage, but you have a joke class feature that is kinda silly and exists to prove a point." Then I can then say "Hmm, there is no reason to ban that class from a game that allows Wizards and Druids."

Frankly, I want to know how you can not take something seriously because a different author posted something you don't like somewhere else.

If I put up a webcomic you don't like tomorrow does Rich Burlew have a bad webcomic? Or maybe not and things should be evaluated on their own merits.

Machaeus
2010-09-16, 03:27 PM
This alone demonstrates that you don't actually understand what the Tomes are. The Tomes are material written by Frank Trollman and K. As such, their versions, available in a stickied thread on TGD, a place you've obviously been if you can talk about the Warmage level 20 ability, is the most official one. This includes the Unfinished Materials which features the Magic Item rules from Book of Gears, and also the WBL post where Frank separates out Core item abilities into Minor, Medium, Major, and Banned Magic items. A Category which includes:

*spoiler omitted*

The fact that you think a version number on a pdf that a) Is a fanmade compilation, not anything official, determines whether or not the rules of Tome are X or Y, is really exactly the type of thing that annoys me, like Oslecamo thinking you can have the Efferti wish three times. When people who don't actually know the rules try to tell me the consequences of the rules, it gets a little annoying.

So honest mistakes, made by someone who was given the Tome rules by Flash Disk and tries to avoid a place so vitriolic a green dragon's acid resistance couldn't overcome it, pisses you off? Or is it the fact that I can't stand your desensitized view of how D&D should be played? Or is it just that I'm disagreeing with your god of all D&D rules?

I would not be so hostile had you not been so hostile in your correction. I would have even apologized if you'd just left out the last two sentences and told me that I was mistaken in my sources. I hope you realize that your attitude of snobbish dismissal will not get you anywhere on this Earth.


Um... It's not looking in depth or making assumption to say "A level 13 character can either have a +4 Longsword of Lifestealing, or they can settle for a +4 Sword of Wounding and have 40 Wands of Lesser Vigor. Or, they can luckily roll a Sword of Lifestealing, and also have the 40 Wands. So instead, let's just assume that if they want a wand of lesser vigor, they can damn well just have it, Sword of Lifestealing or Sword of Wounding."

It's just making play simpler and more fun.

Sounds like you dislike challenges. D&D is a resource-managing roleplaying game, if you want to get down to it. For example I would, at lower levels, buy six cure light wounds potions for the same cost of a cure moderate wounds potion because it means I have more healing at the time. That's managing resources. At a slightly higher level, it would make more sense to get the more expensive potion because then I'm not wasting actions on healing piddly amounts of damage.

Let's look at your example. The assumption that someone is rolling treasure means they're rolling treasure, not getting suggestions. If you're letting someone dictate what they get from the dragon's hoard or whatever, you're kinda missing the point. The DM keeps the players in mind when giving them treasure, but he does not give them that control. That's like Congress giving the various giant companies control over legislation.


As I said above, My source is the one written by Frank Trollman, not compiled by a completely unrelated person who happens to be a fan.

Now, had you said this, you would have gotten an apology from me instead of the anger you're getting now. Not that you care, you're from TGD, the most angry place on the net that I know of and the second most hateful place on the net I know of. Yes, you are second only to /b/.


Additionally, I will point out that version whatever almost certainly has the same wish text as the original Frank written document, you just don't know where to look for it, and so erroneously choose to pretend that the Wish spell is identical in Tome to the Core one, even though it was specifically mentioned multiple times in this thread that it was changed.

Yeah, because Adobe Reader doesn't have a Control-F function to find things. That was copypasta from the edition I had. And it doesn't matter if you don't think of them as editions, because they are. Compiled by an unrelated fan or not, they are various editions of the rules, past editions.


What do you mean by "it"?

The Tomes.


I am perfectly capable of taking The Tomes as a whole seriously, even when someone who is not any more in touch with Frank Trollman than I am decides to write their own class on a forum that just happens to include a joke class feature.

Which shows you know nothing about how to write or critically think about writing.


In fact, I can go farther, and recognize that a single class feature at level 20 being a joke does not make the entire class a joke, and the rest of the abilities must be evaluated on their own merits.

I didn't say the class was a joke. What I alluded to, however, was that the entire book was similar in its attempts to be funny while failing miserably and ruining the experience of D&D, as far as I'm concerned. I wish I could burn the thread on the internet, despite all physical laws saying it's impossible.


And if the result is "At levels 1-19, you have a class with better fluff and mechanics than the WotC Warmage. And at level 20, you have a class with better fluff and mechanics than a WotC Warmage, but you have a joke class feature that is kinda silly and exists to prove a point." Then I can then say "Hmm, there is no reason to ban that class from a game that allows Wizards and Druids."

Frankly, I want to know how you can not take something seriously because a different author posted something you don't like somewhere else.

It shouldn't have to "prove a point" anymore than a Game of the Year should have to "redeem itself" via multiplayer (I'm looking at you, Halo 3).


If I put up a webcomic you don't like tomorrow does Rich Burlew have a bad webcomic? Or maybe not and things should be evaluated on their own merits.

This is tangentially related at best. While it makes your point, it makes your point look stupid. If you read one of my earlier posts, you'll note I mentioned my dislikes and a cessation to the fact that there are certain things worth looking at in there. Since you missed it the first time, I'll say it again.


EDIT: Perhaps I should say something. I loathe the Tomes mostly, as said, for the snark. I dislike the mechanical take on the game ("To infinity and beyond!" as said), and the philosophy ("It's totally okay to break the game, because everybody's doing it and that's the only fun way to play anymore"). But what I find is that there are occasional gems of fact. Facts of diamond in what I perceive as a sea of crap, at best. At worst, carp. It's almost not worth it to dig through for the good stuff.

For example, I find the two takes on necromancy and negative energy to be in-depth, thought-provoking, and frankly intelligent. Same for most of the law/chaos discussion. I found the takes on good/evil alignment, however, to be insulting to my intelligence on the whole. I can see the Yu Yu Hakusho references in the Disciple of the Spirit Wave prestige class, and loved it because it stayed quite true to the main character in mechanics and flavor; but the Warmage's "penultimate class ability" was wholly unnecessary and unprofessional.

You see, I can see the good parts in the Tomes. You cannot see the flaws. That is our difference - we are both vehemently on one polarized side, but only one of us is willing to see the other's point - until condescending remarks are thrown about, of course. Then everyone gets screwed.


Hell with it...agree to disagree?

Prime32
2010-09-16, 04:02 PM
Not that you care, you're from TGD, the most angry place on the net that I know of and the second most hateful place on the net I know of. Yes, you are second only to /b/.I dunno, this thread is getting pretty close.

While I haven't been there often, it seems to me that there are plenty of reasonable posters on TGD. It's just hard to hear them over the guys who breathe acid. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VocalMinority)

Machaeus
2010-09-16, 05:11 PM
...you know, you have a point. My apologies.

As for your second point...well, ****. I just got suckered into the belief that loud = majority. Again.

On another note, thanks, I'll be reading that all day. :annoyed: :tongue:

Malakar
2010-09-16, 05:14 PM
So honest mistakes, made by someone who was given the Tome rules by Flash Disk and tries to avoid a place so vitriolic a green dragon's acid resistance couldn't overcome it, pisses you off? Or is it the fact that I can't stand your desensitized view of how D&D should be played? Or is it just that I'm disagreeing with your god of all D&D rules?

No, not honest mistakes, the fact that you choose to talk down to me about something I know more than you about, when you are aware of many good reasons why I might know more than you, like the fact that you haven't read the whole thing, annoys me. I'm allowed to be annoyed by that. I didn't say that I would have my retribution, or anything else, merely that people talking down to me about the consequences of things that they have less knowledge of is annoying.

Likewise, I would expect Shadowrun players to be annoyed by me talking down to them.


I would not be so hostile had you not been so hostile in your correction. I would have even apologized if you'd just left out the last two sentences and told me that I was mistaken in my sources. I hope you realize that your attitude of snobbish dismissal will not get you anywhere on this Earth.

I was not hostile to you. I merely made an accurate statement about the things that annoy me. I did not snobbishly dismiss your statements based on tone. I merely pointed out where they are factually incorrect.


Sounds like you dislike challenges. D&D is a resource-managing roleplaying game, if you want to get down to it. For example I would, at lower levels, buy six cure light wounds potions for the same cost of a cure moderate wounds potion because it means I have more healing at the time. That's managing resources. At a slightly higher level, it would make more sense to get the more expensive potion because then I'm not wasting actions on healing piddly amounts of damage.

I like challenges. Which is why I prefer tougher opposition, and more complex characters. I do not like fiddly book keeping to get the same result. If I can already have full HP at the beginning of every fight, I don't see the reason why I should have to calculate out wealth to the seventh significant digit to do it, when I already know that the amount of wealth it takes to keep me fully healed at all times is going to be entirely within two digits. Fiddly bookkeeping for same result = no. Challenge = Fine.


Let's look at your example. The assumption that someone is rolling treasure means they're rolling treasure, not getting suggestions. If you're letting someone dictate what they get from the dragon's hoard or whatever, you're kinda missing the point. The DM keeps the players in mind when giving them treasure, but he does not give them that control. That's like Congress giving the various giant companies control over legislation.

Once again, the point is that, If you are dealing with Billions of GP worth of equipment for your characters, or even only just hundreds of millions, then whether or not you have an extra wand of Lesser Vigor is silly. You always buy enough wands to keep you at full health, and a few extras, because who cares. And all of that together is less than you will make of the very next enemy you find. Literally, no matter who it is, you kill them, sell all their stuff, and you have forty more wands if you want.


Now, had you said this, you would have gotten an apology from me instead of the anger you're getting now. Not that you care, you're from TGD, the most angry place on the net that I know of and the second most hateful place on the net I know of. Yes, you are second only to /b/.

I did actually say this. So your point seems incorrect.


Yeah, because Adobe Reader doesn't have a Control-F function to find things. That was copypasta from the edition I had. And it doesn't matter if you don't think of them as editions, because they are. Compiled by an unrelated fan or not, they are various editions of the rules, past editions.

Actually, they are not editions of the rules, they are editions of the pdf, which seeks to represent the actual rules, but often falls far short, and never claims to be a different edition, or to change any of the rules.

PS: Foxit Reader.


Which shows you know nothing about how to write or critically think about writing.

No, it shows that you know nothing about thinking critically, or far more likely, that you are unaware of the authorship of the Tomes and of the Warmage class. You are specifically stating that you don't take the Tomes seriously because someone who is not the Tomes writer wrote something that is not the Tomes that you don't like. If the whole Tomes is like X, maybe you could point to an example in the Tomes.


It shouldn't have to "prove a point" anymore than a Game of the Year should have to "redeem itself" via multiplayer (I'm looking at you, Halo 3).

It doesn't have to prove a point. But it does. Games don't have to have multiplayer but they do. If the class without that one aspect is Very Very Very Good, and the one aspect is a single line with no mechanical effect...

Then clearly the play experience of that class is identically good with and without that feature.

I personally don't think the class is all that special. But at no point does a Joke that I don't find funny come into my calculations of what is and isn't a good class.


You see, I can see the good parts in the Tomes. You cannot see the flaws. That is our difference - we are both vehemently on one polarized side, but only one of us is willing to see the other's point - until condescending remarks are thrown about, of course. Then everyone gets screwed.

No, I can see the bad parts of the Tomes. I specifically have pointed out that two aspects of the Tomes I don't like, one of which I think needs fixing, and the other I'm willing to fix via ignoring. What I don't see is flaws that don't exist, because I know the rules for calling and wishes. And so when someone claims X is a flaw where it isn't, I will go right ahead and point it out.

Claiming that you are the righteous one who is capable of seeing the truth, and the only one willing to see the other sides point of view is the most condescending remark one can ever make.


Hell with it...agree to disagree?

About what? Agree to disagree about whether the Tomes are the greatest thing since sliced bread? I never claimed they were. Agree to disagree about whether there is snark, or you don't like that snark, or that snark is good or bad? I never claimed anything about any of those. I never said you weren't allowed to dislike the Tome because of Tone, only that you should confine your hatred of the Tomes' Tone to things that are actually the Tomes.

Agree to disagree that there are infinite Wish loops in Tome via Planar Binding Efferti? No. Because that part is objectively false.

Machaeus
2010-09-16, 06:18 PM
{{Scrubbed}}

Malakar
2010-09-16, 06:46 PM
And that is the Tome philosophy - "a DM weak enough to allow this rule set deserves to be stepped on."

No, the Tome philosophy is "If a DM plays monsters intelligently, they will walk all over everyone who isn't a fullcaster confined to very specific playstyles (or really well done rogue), so therefore, let's make the other people not suck as much."


I interpreted that as pretty dismissive.

I dismissed the incorrect parts of your post, after demonstrating they were incorrect. That is not being dismissive of you.


Not in my book, I care, and not at low levels. But whatever.

The Tome does not allow for that at low levels. Only past level 11, or 9 if you are a Cleric.


I had not heard of that until today. And if you're implying "go open-source", mine is free too.

My implication is that Foxit Reader has a Ctrl-F search function.


I was unaware that this was not a community project. It sounded like it was to me, but then maybe my source screwed me up.

Many people in the community contribute in various ways, but they are to the actual Tomes what Green Ronin is to WotC. They have permission to use and modify the rules, and really wish they were the actual people.


You totally missed what I was saying with the Halo example. It was NOT a game worthy of Game of the Year. Just as the Tome rules are not the be-all end-all on D&D FOREVAR that you and the other fanboys insist. And yes, I went there.

I have not ever claimed that it is. Merely that is is significantly improved compared to standard 3.5 for the purposes of having things that I want, and not having things that I don't want. I could take or leave Races of War.


Oh my sweet logic center...THAT WAS AN EXAMPLE OF THE SNARK THAT I LOATHE SO INTENSELY. I can't believe I'm having to spell this out for you! I didn't say a word about the rest and you assume I hate it because I point out something severely wrong with it?

Oh my Sweet Logic Center. That is an example of someone who is not a writer of the Tomes, writing something that is not the Tomes, and having snark.

Therefore, criticizing the snark of the Tomes using something not from the Tomes would be exactly what I am talking about as not accurately representing the Tomes.


Which is exactly why the Tome rules suck - it IS special.

a) Once again: The Warmage is not a Tome class. It was made by someone else. Saying the Tome rules suck because a non-Tome class is special... doesn't make sense.

b) When I say that it is not special. I am indicating that I do not find it to be a particularly good class, and am merely indicating that fact. Special is a word which requires definition to even make sense, I assumed (incorrectly) that I had made mine clear.

Of course, while I do not find it to be that great, It is still quite clearly better than the WotC Warmage, which is made of fail.


Try "is and isn't a good set of rules". Because that monkey {{scrubbed}} is ALL OVER THE WALLS.

Once again. If it is all over the walls, you should use an example from the actual Tomes, instead of a class made by someone entirely unrelated to the actual Tome creation.


I missed both of those. Point me to them, please.

Wish does allow for people to stockpile infinite scrolls on their days off, to be broken on their days on. This is a problem that needs fixing, more likely by limiting scrolls effects somehow than by just arbitrarily not allowing them to be wished for.

A second is my dislike of the over abundance of Leadership. Given in a few classes, and also as only one effect of a few feats, which is silly, because Leadership alone as a feat is still better than any feat that doesn't grant Leadership + something.


Yes, you did. To make it fair.
...
Yes, you did. To make it fair.
...
Yes, you did. To make it fair.

No I did not. Where do you think I said these things?


Let me ask you a question: When Luke asks Obi-Wan what the Force is, does Obi-Wan get angry that someone is asking him such a simple question about a subject he knows oodles about? No. He kindly explains the whole deal to him. You had that opportunity and you ruined it.

I merely corrected you on the effects of Wish, and the fact that Warmage is not a Tome class, and so... Is not an example of anything from the Tome.

I did not get angry at any point.


Did I argue that this was true in my last post? Pretty sure not.

You did argue it to be true in your previous posts, and had not yet stated it was false. As such, I choose to present it as one possible completion of your statement about agreeing to disagree. I did not favor it over any of the others because I have no reason to believe it is more likely, which is why I asked it as a question, and then gave my answer conditioned on that being our intent.

joela
2010-09-18, 03:34 AM
So, is anyone currently running a campaign using these rules?

Fizban
2010-09-18, 05:38 AM
I like a lot of the theory and fluff in Races of War and Dungeonomicon, but I don't like most of their mechanics. Their descriptions of day to day life and adventuring on other planes are as good or better than a lot of printed books and are a fun read. Describing the DnD world based on the mechanics as an Iron Age setting, using the Mentor feat to extrapolate how kingdoms stay together instead of falling apart whenever an adventurer walks by, and sorting the races geopolitcal positions based on their game stats rather than "elves are awesome!!11" are all great. On the other hand, their Wish economy has some holes in it, their base classes are purely ridiculous, and they propose so many change to the undead types that you basically have to gut the system. The only mechanic I really liked was the one for the fighter, dealing tons of extra damage if the threatened foe does not attack him. This could be easily worked into maneuvers for Tome of Battle (the printed book) and then I'd be quite happy.

Edit: and after reading the thread it looks like my points have been mentioned (as expected, no problem), and the thread is now a point war (sad I wanted to talk about the tomes). I suppose I shouldn't complain though, I killed a thread the same way myself a few days ago.

Malakar
2010-09-18, 08:06 AM
So, is anyone currently running a campaign using these rules?

I am not currently DMing any games, but when I do, they are usually Tome games with my own modifications.

There are some other people running such games.


The only mechanic I really liked was the one for the fighter, dealing tons of extra damage if the threatened foe does not attack him.

That's actually the Knight, and it's whomever he challenges, not threatens.