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DragoonWraith
2010-08-13, 12:39 PM
A practitioner of both faith and magic, the Mystic Theurge has both Arcane and Divine spells to call upon.

Hit Die
d4.

Class Skills
The class skills (and key ability modifier for each) of the Mystic Theurge are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (each skill taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Skill Points per Level
At 1st level: (2 + Int modifier) 4.
Each level thereafter: 2 + Int modifier.

{table=head]Level | BAB| Fort | Ref | Will | Special | Aura Level
1st | +0 | +2 | +0 | +2 | Domain, Lore, Mystic Aura, Scribe Scroll, Spontaneous Arcana (0th), Summon Aligned Familiar | 1st
2nd | +1 | +3 | +0 | +3 | Auric Missile, Spontaneous Arcana (1st) | 1st
3rd | +1 | +3 | +1 | +3 | Arcane Aura (1/day) | 1st
4th | +2 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Spontaneous Arcana (2nd) | 2nd
5th | +2 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Arcane Aura (2/day) | 2nd
6th | +3 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Spell Synthesis (1/encounter) | 2nd
7th | +3 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Spontaneous Arcana (3rd) | 3rd
8th | +4 | +6 | +2 | +6 | Arcane Aura (3/day) | 3rd
9th | +4 | +6 | +3 | +6 | Spontaneous Arcana (4th) | 4th
10th | +5 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Arcane Aura (4/day) | 4th
11th | +5 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Spell Synthesis (2/encounter) | 4th
12th | +6/+1 | +8 | +4 | +8 | Spontaneous Arcana (5th) | 5th
13th | +6/+1 | +8 | +4 | +8 | Arcane Aura (5/day) | 5th
14th | +7/+2 | +9 | +4 | +9 | Spontaneous Arcana (6th) | 6th
15th | +7/+2 | +9 | +5 | +9 | Arcane Aura (6/day) | 6th
16th | +8/+3 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Spontaneous Arcana (7th) | 7th
17th | +8/+3 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Arcane Aura (7/day) | 7th
18th | +9/+4 | +11 | +6 | +11 | Spell Synthesis (3/encounter) | 7th
19th | +9/+4 | +11 | +6 | +11 | Spontaneous Arcana (8th) | 8th
20th | +10/+5 | +12 | +6 | +12 | Arcane Aura (8/day), Spontaneous Divinity | 8th[/table]
Armor and Weapon Proficiencies
The Mystic Theurge is proficient in simple weapons, but in no form of armor. Wearing armor may interfere with the casting of his Arcane Spells if they have Somatic components (most do).

Spellcasting
A Mystic Theurge casts spells, both Arcane and Divine. His Arcane spells are drawn from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, while his Divine spells are drawn from the Cleric spell list. His Divine spells must be prepared ahead of time, like a Cleric must, while his Arcane spells he may cast without preparation, as a Sorcerer might. To learn or cast a Divine spell, his Wisdom score must be at least 10 + the spell's level. To learn or cast an Arcane spell, his Intelligence score must be at least 10 + the spell's level. No matter the sort of spell he casts, the saving throw DC for his spells is always calculated as 10 + the spell's level + the higher of his Wisdom and Intelligence modifiers.

A Mystic Theurge regains spell slots at the same time each day: the time which is devoted to his deity, during which he prays for Divine spells. However, any previously used spell slots are not usable immediately; he must prepare himself for spellcasting. For Arcane spells, this requires 15 minutes of quiet meditation, which can only happen after a full night's rest. For Divine spells, this requires 45 minutes of prayer, but can be done even if the Mystic Theurge has not rested. If the Mystic Theurge has uncast prepared Divine spells, or uncast, unprepared spell slots, these may be retained in their current state, changed to new Divine spells during prayer, or changed to Arcane spell slots during meditation.

During meditation, any spell slots not used to prepare Divine spells may be made available for Arcane spell casting, able to be spontaneously cast as any Arcane spell the Mystic Theurge knows (see below for Arcane spells known).

During prayer, any available spell slots (even those otherwise ready for Arcane spells) may be devoted to preparing any spells from the Cleric list that the Mystic Theurge's deity can grant (see below for alignment restrictions on Divine spells). The Mystic Theurge also gains one spell of each level as determined by his Domain (see below).

Like a Cleric, a Mystic Theurge cannot prepare Divine spells opposed to his or his deity's alignment, but he may learn and cast Arcane spells that are opposed in this manner. Like a Sorcerer, his Arcane spells that have Somatic components are subject to the Arcane Spell Failure of any armor he is wearing, but his Divine spells are not restricted in this way.

Like other spellcasters, the Mystic Theurge can only cast a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His daily allotment of spell slots is listed in the table below.

In addition, he may gain bonus spell slots for having a high Wisdom or Intelligence score, but he only gets the bonus spell slots for the higher of the two. If his bonus spell slots are from a high Wisdom score, his bonus spell slots must be used to prepare Divine spells; they cannot be used to cast Arcane spells. Alternatively, spell slots from a high Intelligence score must be used to cast Arcane spells, and cannot be used to prepare Divine spells.

As an exception, if his lower score is also high enough to receive bonus spell slots of a given level, though he does not get additional bonus spells for it, he may use a number of his bonus spell slots equal to the bonus spells he would get from the lower score for the lower score's type of spell.

For instance, a Mystic Theurge with 20 Wisdom and 14 Intelligence is entitled to 2 bonus 1st level spells, thanks to the 20 Wisdom. Because Wisdom is used for Divine spells, these 2 slots would normally be reserved for Divine spells, but his 14 Intelligence would also grant 1 bonus 1st level spell - though he does not get a third bonus spell, he may use one of his two bonus spells as an Arcane spell slot.

Spells per Day
{table=head]Level | 0th | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th
1st | 4 | 1+1 | | | | | | | |
2nd | 5 | 2+1 | | | | | | | |
3rd | 5 | 2+1 | | | | | | | |
4th | 5 | 3+1 | 1+1 | | | | | | |
5th | 5 | 3+1 | 2+1 | | | | | | |
6th | 5 | 3+1 | 2+1 | | | | | | |
7th | 5 | 3+1 | 3+1 | 1+1 | | | | | |
8th | 5 | 3+1 | 3+1 | 2+1 | | | | | |
9th | 5 | 3+1 | 3+1 | 2+1 | 1+1 | | | | |
10th | 5 | 3+1 | 3+1 | 3+1 | 2+1 | | | | |
11th | 5 | 3+1 | 3+1 | 3+1 | 2+1 | | | | |
12th | 6 | 3+1 | 3+1 | 3+1 | 3+1 | 1+1 | | | |
13th | 6 | 4+1 | 3+1 | 3+1 | 3+1 | 2+1 | | | |
14th | 6 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | 3+1 | 2+1 | 1+1 | | |
15th | 6 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | 3+1 | 2+1 | | |
16th | 6 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | 2+1 | 1+1 | |
17th | 6 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | 2+1 | |
18th | 6 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | |
19th | 6 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 1+1 |
20th | 6 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | +1*[/table]
* While a Mystic Theurge does not gain any ordinary 9th level spell slots, a 20th level Mystic Theurge does gain the 9th level spell associated with their Domain (see below) each day while praying. Because they do not have any ordinary 9th level spell slots, they do not receive bonus 9th level spell slots, nor can they cast any other 9th level spells, Arcane or Divine.
While the Mystic Theurge may pray each day for any spells his deity can grant him, like a Cleric, the Mystic Theurge's selection of Arcane spells is limited only to those he has personally memorized, like a Sorcerer. The number of Arcane spells of each level that he knows is listed below, in the table. The Mystic Theurge also gains each spell from his chosen Domain (see below) as a bonus Arcane spell known.

Arcane Spells Known
{table=head]Level | 0th | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th
1st | 3 | 2+1 | | | | | | |
2nd | 3 | 3+1 | | | | | | |
3rd | 4 | 4+1 | | | | | | |
4th | 4 | 4+1 | 2+1 | | | | | |
5th | 4 | 4+1 | 3+1 | | | | | |
6th | 5 | 4+1 | 3+1 | | | | | |
7th | 5 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 2+1 | | | | |
8th | 5 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | | | | |
9th | 5 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | 2+1 | | | |
10th | 5 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | 3+1 | | | |
11th | 6 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | 3+1 | | | |
12th | 6 | 5+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | 3+1 | 2+1 | | |
13th | 6 | 5+1 | 5+1 | 3+1 | 3+1 | 3+1 | | |
14th | 6 | 5+1 | 5+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | 3+1 | 2+1 | |
15th | 6 | 5+1 | 5+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | 3+1 | |
16th | 6 | 5+1 | 5+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | 2+1 |
17th | 7 | 5+1 | 5+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | 3+1 |
18th | 7 | 5+1 | 5+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | 3+1 |
19th | 7 | 5+1 | 5+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | 3+1 | 2+1
20th | 7 | 5+1 | 5+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | 3+1 | 3+1[/table]
Upon reaching 5th level, and every 3 levels thereafter (8th, 11th, etc.), the Mystic Theurge may replace any spell he knows for another spell of the same level.

Domain
At 1st level, the Mystic Theurge gains a single Cleric Domain. He has spell slots in which this Domain's spells are prepared when he prays (see Spellcasting, above), and he gains the Domain's granted ability. This Domain's spells are also added to his Arcane Spells Known automatically as soon as he is able to cast Arcane Mystic Theurge spells of the equivalent level, and may be cast as Arcane spells as normal for spells known.

At 20th level, each day when praying for Divine spells, the Mystic Theurge gets a single use of the 9th level spell associated with his Domain. As this is a Domain spell, and he does not have ordinary spell slots for 9th level spells, he cannot get bonus spell slots for 9th level spells, nor can he use any other 9th level spells, Arcane or Divine.

Lore
As the Bard's Bardic Knowledge class feature, except that the Mystic Theurge adds his class level to the check instead of Bard level. If the Mystic Theurge already has any Bardic Knowledge or Lore ability, his Mystic Theurge levels stack with any previous levels that count for those abilities.

Mystic Aura (Ex)
The Mystic Theurge has an Aura as a Cleric of the Mystic Theurge's class level.

In addition, the Mystic Theurge must choose an alignment - Chaotic, Evil, Good, or Lawful. This alignment must match at least one component of either his or his deity's alignment, if possible - only a True Neutral Mystic Theurge with a True Neutral deity could choose from any of the four alignments. If the Mystic Theurge has chosen an Alignment Domain (see above), that must be the alignment he chooses. Regardless, the alignment must be chosen at 1st level, and cannot be changed thereafter; this becomes his "Aura Alignment".

All allies within a radius equal to Close range (that is, 25 ft. plus 5 ft. per 2 Caster Levels) of the Mystic Theurge may treat their weapons as Magic and aligned with Aura Alignment, if it is beneficial to them (the effects may be chosen separately, e.g. magical but not aligned, if desired).

The Mystic Aura also has an "Aura Level", as indicated in the table above. The Aura Level is always equal to the highest spell level to which the Mystic Theurge has access; effectively, any Prestige Class that progresses his spellcasting also progresses his Aura Level. The Aura Level is not effected by the Mystic Theurge casting all of his highest level spells, but it is affected by Negative Levels, if they eliminate his ability to cast spells of a level he previously could. The Aura Level is important for his Auric Missiles and Arcane Auras (see below).

Scribe Scroll
Mystic Theurges gain Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat.

Spontaneous Arcana
At 1st level, a Mystic Theurge may choose one Cantrip (0th level Arcane spell) he knows. From now on, he may at any time choose to spontaneously convert any Orison (0th level Divine spell) that he has prepared into this Cantrip, casting it as if that spell slot had never been prepared as a Divine spell.

At 2nd level, he may choose a 1st level Arcane spell, and then may thereafter convert any Divine spell prepared in a 1st level spell slot into this spell. At 4th level, he chooses a 2nd level spell, and so on an so forth, as given in the table above. In all cases, the Mystic Theurge's Domain spell of a given level cannot be spontaneously converted into that level's chosen Arcane spell.

Summon Aligned Familiar
As Familiar of a Sorcerer of the Mystic Theurge's class level, except that the Familiar gains a template based on the alignment of his Mystic Aura, as listed in the table below:

Aligned Familiar Templates
{table=head]Aura Alignment | Template
Chaotic | Anarchic
Evil | Fiendish
Good | Lawful
Lawful | Axiomatic[/table]
If the Mystic Theurge takes the Improved Familiar feat, the Improved Familiar also gains an appropriate template, but the Mystic Theurge cannot choose a Familiar whose alignment is "always" in opposition to his own or his deity's.

Allies adjacent to the Aligned Familiar are considered to be within the Mystic Aura, even if those spaces would not be close enough to the Mystic Theurge to otherwise count.

Auric Missile (Su)
As a standard action, a 2nd level Mystic Theurge can channel his aura into discrete missiles of aligned arcane material. This action can be made at-will, and functions exactly like the Magic Missile spell except:
Auric Missiles deal only 1d3 damage against those with a subtype corresponding to the Mystic Theurge's Mystic Aura alignment
Auric Missiles deal 1d8+2 damage against those with a subtype opposed to the Mystic Aura alignment
The number of Auric Missiles fired in a single action is equal to his Aura Level (rather than gaining an extra missile every 2 Caster Levels), with no maximum.
Using Auric Missiles suppresses the his Mystic Aura until his next turn.

Arcane Aura (Su)
Starting at 3rd level, once per day as a Swift action the Mystic Theurge can channel Arcana into his Mystic Aura, granting additional benefits to his allies within the aura. The Mystic Theurge himself is always considered his own ally for the purposes of Arcane Auras.

At 4th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 20th, the Mystic Theurge gets another daily use of his Arcane Auras. There is a different Aura for each school of magic, and the Mystic Theurge may choose to learn one each time he gains a new daily use of the Arcane Aura. Knowing the Arcane Aura associated with a given school grants a +2 alignment bonus (see below) to Spellcraft checks associated with spells of that school, and a +1 alignment bonus to Caster Level for spells of that school.

Each Aura remains in effect for the rest of the encounter in which it is invoked (or at least one minute, if an encounter lasts less time than that). More than one Aura may be used in a single encounter, and their benefits stack, but in most cases it is pointless to use the same Aura twice in one encounter (the Necromancy Aura can be re-used to reset it, however; see below). While an Aura is in effect, the Mystic Theurge gains a magical aura (see Detect Magic) matching the Aura's school and of a level equal to his Aura level + 1.

All bonuses derived from Arcane Auras are of the same type, and the type depends on the alignment of the Mystic Aura:
Arcane Aura Bonus Types
{table=head]Aura Alignment | Bonus Type
Chaotic | Entropic Bonus
Evil | Profane Bonus
Good | Sacred Bonus
Lawful | Ordered Bonus[/table]In all cases, the Arcane Auras will refer to "alignment bonuses", which are not a separate type of bonus but rather refer to the types above, as appropriate. No matter their bonus types, the bonuses from two Mystic Theurges using the same Arcane Aura do not stack, unless otherwise noted. They could, however, strategically distribute their Aura bonuses to different allies.

Each Arcane Aura has a "bonus pool" that allows him to distribute some effect a number of times equal to his Aura Level. No more than half of the total pool can be granted to a single ally, however.

As the Arcane Auras are a part of his Mystic Aura, using Auric Missiles removes the benefits of any Arcane Auras for that round.

Abjuration Aura - Each ally within the Mystic Aura gains the effects of the Protection from Alignment spell that protects from the alignment opposed to the Mystic Theurge's Aura alignment, except that the deflection and resistance bonuses are instead alignment bonuses. The Abjuration Aura's "bonus pool" effect is an additional +1 to AC and +1 bonus on saves. As an exception to the usual rules where the bonuses of the same Arcane Aura of two differently-aligned Mystic Theurges do not stack, those of the Abjuration Aura do (since each applies only against the opposite alignment).

Conjuration Aura - Each ally within the Mystic Aura may, as a Move Action, teleport up to 10 feet away, so long as they have line of sight and line of effect to the target location. Each ally may also choose to sacrifice 5 feet of teleport distance in order to teleport instead as a Swift action. The Conjuration Aura's "bonus pool" effect is another 5 feet of teleport distance.

Divination Aura - Each ally within the Mystic Aura gains a +1 alignment bonus to attack rolls and a +1 alignment bonus to Intelligence-based ability and skill checks. The Divination Aura's "bonus pool" effect is another +1 alignment bonus on attack rolls and Intelligence-based ability and skill checks.

Enchantment Aura - Each ally within the Mystic Aura gains a +2 alignment bonus on saving throws against Mind-Affecting effects, and a +2 alignment bonus on Charisma-based ability and skill checks. The "bonus pool" effect of the Enchantment Aura is a +1 alignment bonus on both saving throws against Mind-Affecting effects and Charisma-based skill checks. This is a Mind-Affecting ability.

Evocation Aura - Each ally within the Mystic Aura gains +1d4 damage, half of which is based on his Aura alignment, and the other half of which is of an element (Acid, Fire, Frost, or Electricity) of his choice. The Evocation Aura's "bonus pool" effect is another +1 damage (which is added before splitting the damage into alignment and elemental damage).

Illusion Aura - Each ally within the Mystic Aura gains the effects of a Blur spell, except that the miss chance is only 5%. The Illusion Aura's "bonus pool" effect is another 5% miss chance.

Necromancy Aura - Each ally within the Mystic Aura gains +1 temporary HP per HD. The Necromancy Aura's "bonus pool" effect is another +1 temporary HP per HD. Redistributing these temporary HPs can only be done in increments of 1 HP per HD - you may remove a number of temporary HPs equal to a multiple of an ally's HD, in order to give another ally that same multiple of their own HD, but any "remainder" HPs (due to having lost some to damage, for example) cannot be redistributed. Re-using the Necromancy Aura resets the total number of temporary HPs, but the old temporary HPs are effectively eliminated first.

Transmutation Aura - Each ally within the Mystic Aura gains a +2 alignment bonus to an Ability score of the Mystic Theurge's choice. The Transmutation Aura's "bonus pool" effect is another +2 alignment bonus to Ability scores. Each ally may have the bonus applied to different ability scores; in fact, a single ally may have their bonus distributed among multiple Ability scores, at the Mystic Theurge's choice.
Spell Synthesis
At 6th level, a Mystic Theurge can cast two spells, one Arcane and one Divine, using one action. Both of the spells must have the same casting time. The Mystic Theurge can make any decisions concerning the spells independently. Any target affected by both of the spells takes a 2 penalty on saves made against each spell. The Mystic Theurge receives a +2 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance with these two spells. At 11th level and again at 18th level, the Mystic Theurge gets another use of this ability per encounter.

Spontaneous Divinity
At 20th level, a Mystic Theurge, when praying for Divine spells, may choose a single Divine spell of each spell level. Until the next time he prays for spells, these spells are treated as Arcane Spells Known, and may be cast as normal for such spells.


Mystic Theurges and Prestige Classes
Because a Mystic Theurge casts both Arcane and Divine spells, he may qualify for any Prestige Class that requires spells of either type. He may also benefit any Prestige Class which offers "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" as normal.

For Prestige Classes that have "+1 level of existing Arcane spellcasting class" or "+1 level of existing Divine spellcasting class", they may add these levels to their Mystic Theurge level for the purpose of determining both their Arcane and Divine spells, but they take a penalty to their Arcane Caster Level equal to one third (rounded up) of their levels that usually only benefit Divine spellcasting, and vice versa for classes that usually only benefit Arcane spellcasting. For example, a Mystic Theurge 16/Archmage 4 has the spellcasting of a 20th level Mystic Theurge, but takes a -2 penalty on his Caster Level for Divine spells.

No class may increase a Mystic Theurge's effective spellcasting ability twice in a single level. For example, a class which offers "+1 level of existing Arcane spellcasting class and +1 level of existing Divine spellcasting class" cannot give +2 to existing Mystic Theurge levels, even though either benefit could be used. Instead, the Prestige Class may apply both bonuses to Mystic Theurge spellcasting (thereby gaining only 1 level, but avoiding the Caster Level penalty), or may choose one or the other to apply to Mystic Theurge (taking the Caster Level penalty as usual), and use the other spellcasting progression to advance some other class that the Mystic Theurge has.

zagan
2010-08-13, 04:27 PM
Mystic Theurge as a base class, never though I would see something like that but an interesting idea. I'll give you a Peach but I'm not that experience with spellcaster so I might miss something.

HD: Minimum okay.

Skills: Seem fine.

Bab, save: Bab okay, why two good save ?

Proficiencies: Only the very basic weapon and no armor. That's good.

Spellcasting: The meat of the class:
-Why wisdom and charisma ? I would have though juts charisma.
-1 hour of preparation total okay.
-Prepared divine but spontaneous arcane, original but strike me as complicated.
-Ability to use opposed arcane spell strike me as weird.
-The mechanic of bonus spell is a little complicated but well explained
-Only cantrip at first level that going to be painfull and not much better at second.
-Max 6 level seem like a wise choice.
-Arcane spell know seem fine

Domain: Nice idea to add the domain spell as has arcane spell know.

Spontaneous Arcana: I like the idea, well done.

Summon Aligned Familiar: I've always loved familiar so that's very good too. The template are a nice touch. Do improve familliar keep the template ?

Spell Synthesis: I really like that, very usefull but limit enough to be reserve for special occasion.

Spontaneous Divinity: Nice counterpart to the arcana version but I'm not sure it's worth being a capstone.

Conclusions: Don't really know, the idea is interesting for sure. As for power level it's hard to tell bard equivalent perhaps ? Funny thing it can qualify for a few prc without multiclassing.

Side note: How goes the Midnight occultist ?

DragoonWraith
2010-08-14, 09:05 AM
Mystic Theurge as a base class, never though I would see something like that but an interesting idea. I'll give you a Peach but I'm not that experience with spellcaster so I might miss something.
It's actually my second go at the idea. The other... was not so good.


HD: Minimum okay.
Seemed to fit.


Skills: Seem fine.
Mm. I'm tempted to give 4+Int, because this isn't an Int-based caster and really I think only Int-based casters should have 2+Int skill points...


Bab, save: Bab okay, why two good save ?
Cuz the Cleric does, and this is pretty definitely weaker than either Wizard or Cleric. It didn't seem to be too much.


Proficiencies: Only the very basic weapon and no armor. That's good.
It's slightly more weapon proficiencies than the Wizard, but it matches the Cleric.


-Why wisdom and charisma ? I would have though juts charisma.
Actually, Charisma is the one I see as least appropriate. I might change that to Intelligence.

As for why, well because I kind of like the dichotomy. Because the save DC calculation is SAD, it shouldn't be a very big deal - you have to get 16 in the other stat, that shouldn't be very difficult.


-1 hour of preparation total okay.
Yeah, seemed right.


-Prepared divine but spontaneous arcane, original but strike me as complicated.
I feel like it does a lot to make the class unique.


-Ability to use opposed arcane spell strike me as weird.
Why? You can't get opposed Divine spells because your source can't or won't give them to you. But when you're creating your own spells from Arcana, you can do what you want. I suppose in a RAW alignment world, doing so will slowly shift your alignment, but most people seem to think that's stupid.


-The mechanic of bonus spell is a little complicated but well explained
Very glad to hear that!


-Only cantrip at first level that going to be painfull and not much better at second.
-Max 6 level seem like a wise choice.
-Arcane spell know seem fine
It matches the Bard's progression.


Domain: Nice idea to add the domain spell as has arcane spell know.
I like it.


Spontaneous Arcana: I like the idea, well done.
Woot!


Summon Aligned Familiar: I've always loved familiar so that's very good too. The template are a nice touch. Do improve familliar keep the template ?
Yeah, it would. I'll have to double-check the wording on Improved Familiar to see if I should call that out specifically.


Spell Synthesis: I really like that, very usefull but limit enough to be reserve for special occasion.
Can't really take credit for that; that's from the Pathfinder Mystic Theurge. I just removed the stupid restrictions on it so it's actually useful, and moved it much earlier.


Spontaneous Divinity: Nice counterpart to the arcana version but I'm not sure it's worth being a capstone.
Eh, in a lot of ways Spell Synthesis 3/day is the real capstone. This was just to avoid having a dead 20th level. It's pretty strong, I think.


Conclusions: Don't really know, the idea is interesting for sure. As for power level it's hard to tell bard equivalent perhaps ? Funny thing it can qualify for a few prc without multiclassing.
Yeah, Bard-equivalent was the goal. Glad to hear you thought so.


Side note: How goes the Midnight occultist ?
Haven't forgotten it, I swear!

Adumbration
2010-08-14, 09:19 AM
Is this meant as an NPC class, like the adept? If so - commendable work. You've reached just about the same power level.

If you've meant this as a PC class, however... I can't think of (m)any reasons for anyone to take it. At first level, you're even more useless than the infamously squishy crossbow wizard: you don't even get to shine once a day with your 1st level spell.

At higher levels, it gets worse. You have fewer spell slots than the average full caster wizard, without even mentioning the sorcerer. Compared to to the Mystic Theurge prestige class, you're getting way fewer spells per day, and in the end, an average MT PrC even gets higher level spell slots. With optimized MT PrC, you can with little effort get at least 9th level spells in one class and 8th in another.


EDIT: But that's just my opinion.

Morph Bark
2010-08-14, 10:55 AM
I don't think it would hurt this class if you could get access to level 7 spells at the end, rather than go just up to 6. Also, for Improved Familiar and similar feats that change your familiar, it might be a good idea to put down that Evil-subtyped creatures can't get the Celestial template (since that is technically possible here), or just all creatures that qualify as potential familiars that are almost always evil (like Red wyrmlings).

If you're not going to give them up to level 7 spells, give them some other handy class feature if you want this to be on PC level of power. Remember, the Bard also has some handy abilities on the side!

DragoonWraith
2010-08-14, 01:02 PM
Is this meant as an NPC class, like the adept? If so - commendable work. You've reached just about the same power level.

If you've meant this as a PC class, however... I can't think of (m)any reasons for anyone to take it. At first level, you're even more useless than the infamously squishy crossbow wizard: you don't even get to shine once a day with your 1st level spell.

At higher levels, it gets worse. You have fewer spell slots than the average full caster wizard, without even mentioning the sorcerer. Compared to to the Mystic Theurge prestige class, you're getting way fewer spells per day, and in the end, an average MT PrC even gets higher level spell slots. With optimized MT PrC, you can with little effort get at least 9th level spells in one class and 8th in another.


EDIT: But that's just my opinion.
I don't think it would hurt this class if you could get access to level 7 spells at the end, rather than go just up to 6. Also, for Improved Familiar and similar feats that change your familiar, it might be a good idea to put down that Evil-subtyped creatures can't get the Celestial template (since that is technically possible here), or just all creatures that qualify as potential familiars that are almost always evil (like Red wyrmlings).

If you're not going to give them up to level 7 spells, give them some other handy class feature if you want this to be on PC level of power. Remember, the Bard also has some handy abilities on the side!
Long story short: Yeah, I agree.

zagan
2010-08-14, 03:02 PM
Well, other have offered good comment but i will stil respond.



Mm. I'm tempted to give 4+Int, because this isn't an Int-based caster and really I think only Int-based casters should have 2+Int skill points...

Might be reasonable.


Cuz the Cleric does, and this is pretty definitely weaker than either Wizard or Cleric. It didn't seem to be too much.

It's slightly more weapon proficiencies than the Wizard, but it matches the Cleric.


Okay, that seem fair.


Actually, Charisma is the one I see as least appropriate. I might change that to Intelligence.

I don't know about that.


As for why, well because I kind of like the dichotomy. Because the save DC calculation is SAD, it shouldn't be a very big deal - you have to get 16 in the other stat, that shouldn't be very difficult.

True, i didn't remember that detail


Why? You can't get opposed Divine spells because your source can't or won't give them to you. But when you're creating your own spells from Arcana, you can do what you want. I suppose in a RAW alignment world, doing so will slowly shift your alignment, but most people seem to think that's stupid.

I think it could be very flavorfull to limit it and powerwise you lost nearly nothing.


Yeah, it would. I'll have to double-check the wording on Improved Familiar to see if I should call that out specifically.

Nice.


Can't really take credit for that; that's from the Pathfinder Mystic Theurge. I just removed the stupid restrictions on it so it's actually useful, and moved it much earlier.

Don't know anything about pathfinder


Eh, in a lot of ways Spell Synthesis 3/day is the real capstone. This was just to avoid having a dead 20th level. It's pretty strong, I think.

It's nice but I don't know, I was expecting something else, spell resistance would fit well but it's not really worth a capstone, outsider subtype is common but weak too. Bonus to caster level perhaps. Or mix of the lot.


Yeah, Bard-equivalent was the goal. Glad to hear you thought so.

As someone mentionned, thinking about it bard have other ability as well. I'm worried about the first two level for survivability


Haven't forgotten it, I swear!

I certainly hope so.

Morph Bark
2010-08-14, 03:07 PM
Changing the Sorcerer casting to Wizard-like casting with Int as the casting stat and adding Bardic Knowledge (or Bardic Knack) would be an improvement to start with.

Or maybe change the aligned familiar to an aligned animal companion, but of course with lower equivalent Druid level?

DragoonWraith
2010-08-14, 03:41 PM
Lore does seem appropriate, perhaps with something like the Archivist's Dark Knowledge feature. I like the Prepared-Divine/Spontaneous-Arcane split, though, personally. Animal Companion doesn't really seem all that appropriate, either.

Grytorm
2010-08-14, 03:59 PM
The thought behind the Theurge prestige classes I think is the loss of spell and caster levels were balanced by the increase in number of spells per day I think. So maybe increase the spells per day and allow both abilities to grant bonus spells.

Gorgondantess
2010-08-14, 04:02 PM
...Honestly, I'd give this class up to 8th level spells. Then as a capstone something like a 9th level spell 1/day. As is, this is a bard with a bigger spell list, sans skill points, sans music, sans 3/4 BAB, sans armor, sans higher HD.
And, yeah... just cantrips at 1st level is brutal. At least a bard can pick up a longsword, or use inspire courage.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-14, 04:07 PM
Yes, yes, yes, I agree.

I was thinking of going to 8th level spells, too, actually, but late. That, or some kind of not-daily-limited ability. Hrm.

Morph Bark
2010-08-14, 04:49 PM
Another idea could be a greater version of spell synthesis, that the combination of two spells uses the strengths of both. For instance, an SR: Yes/Save: No spell combined with an SR: No/Save: Fort neg spell could be turned into a single SR: No/Save: No spell of one level higher than the higher of the two spells sacrificed. They would need to both be centered on the same point, of course, so an AoE spell combined with a touch spell would be dangerous...

DragoonWraith
2010-08-14, 06:42 PM
That is an interesting idea, and I will definitely try to work in something like that. I really like it.

Anyway, I'm currently working on a series of "Auras" for the Mystic Theurge, which provide non-spell-dependent effects. One will include a simple blasty type ability, but for the most part they'll be buffs for people around the Mystic Theurge. They're not going to be too much like the Marshal or Dragon Shaman abilities, methinks, though.

Lix Lorn
2010-08-14, 07:53 PM
You could give them 8th level spells as a capstone.

Also... Nice work. XD

Gorgondantess
2010-08-14, 08:29 PM
Another idea could be a greater version of spell synthesis, that the combination of two spells uses the strengths of both. For instance, an SR: Yes/Save: No spell combined with an SR: No/Save: Fort neg spell could be turned into a single SR: No/Save: No spell of one level higher than the higher of the two spells sacrificed. They would need to both be centered on the same point, of course, so an AoE spell combined with a touch spell would be dangerous...

Are you kidding me? Not allowing a save for a spell that normally allows a save is ridiculously good. Why is hold monster- 9+ rounds of paralysis- a 5th level spell, while Irresistible Dance, 2-5 rounds of a debuff (but certainly not anything that'll cripple the opponent) an 8th level spell? Because hold monster allows a save, irresistible dance doesn't. That's all. 3 spell levels and a lot less duration and power, to lose a save.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-14, 08:34 PM
Well, I did assume he meant as a capstone.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-14, 11:40 PM
OK, so revamp - up to 8th level spells, 1/day 9th level spell associated with your Domain, and Auras. Thoughts?

Morph Bark
2010-08-15, 04:19 AM
Are you kidding me? Not allowing a save for a spell that normally allows a save is ridiculously good. Why is hold monster- 9+ rounds of paralysis- a 5th level spell, while Irresistible Dance, 2-5 rounds of a debuff (but certainly not anything that'll cripple the opponent) an 8th level spell? Because hold monster allows a save, irresistible dance doesn't. That's all. 3 spell levels and a lot less duration and power, to lose a save.


Well, I did assume he meant as a capstone.

Yes, I did mean as a capstone. Of course there'd best also be a maximum level for it involved, like level 3 or 4 for both sides, and perhaps consuming twice the amount of spell slots (so 4 in total).

Mystic Muse
2010-08-15, 04:31 AM
I like the way this looks so far. I'll look it over a bit better tomorrow and then add my critique.

grarrrg
2010-08-15, 01:34 PM
I like it. One minor question though.
Does it count as both Divine and Arcane for purposes of PrC "+spellcasting"?
As is, you could freely switch between PrC's that advance divine or arcane casting, and gain full benefits from both. What if you take levels in a "mystic theurge-like" PrC, do you gain "double" bonus from having both?
Maybe make it so at level 1 you choose to count as either a divine or arcane for purposes of PrC +casting?

Like I said, pretty minor quibble, but people have 'broken' worse classes.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-15, 01:39 PM
Argh, forgot to put in the Prestige Class rules. Knew I'd forgotten something.

EDIT: K, it's in there now.

Zaydos
2010-08-15, 02:07 PM
For Prestige Classes that have "+1 level of existing Arcane spellcasting class" or "+1 level of existing Divine spellcasting class", they may add these levels to their Mystic Theurge level for the purpose of determining both their Arcane and Divine spells, but they take a penalty to their Arcane Caster Level equal to one third (rounded up) of their levels that usually only benefit Divine spellcasting, and vice versa for classes that usually only benefit Arcane spellcasting. For example, a Mystic Theurge 16/Archmage 4 has the spellcasting of a 20th level Mystic Theurge, but takes a -2 penalty on his Caster Level for Divine spells.

This makes me sad; even though all it really does is enforce a feat tax (Practiced Spellcaster) or just taking the caster level hit it really seems an unnecessary punishment game mechanically (fluff-wise it makes more sense). Now I will watch as someone points out how horribly easy it is to break without this.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-15, 02:09 PM
No, you're right - it's in there purely for fluff reasons. It just made sense that classes that are "+1 level of exist _____ spellcasting class" aren't as good as those for both. Ultimately, the penalty is supposed to be minor - a -4 penalty at worst, for a 10 level PrC. Yeah, feat tax, I know and agree. I dunno, anyone have a better idea?

Lix Lorn
2010-08-15, 03:01 PM
Could you take the PrC Mystic Theurge? XD

DragoonWraith
2010-08-15, 03:20 PM
You'd be giving up your class features for absolutely no reason... and strictly speaking, no, I'd think.

Lix Lorn
2010-08-15, 04:47 PM
You could, but I know I'd ban that if I were a DM. XD

DragoonWraith
2010-08-15, 05:52 PM
Typically when a class by the same name is published, it supercedes the original. Like the 3.5 Assassin supercedes the 3.0 Assassin, even though in 3.0 the Assassin was a base class, so you couldn't be an Assassin/Assassin. That rule really is specifically referring to the 3.5 conversion, of course, but I think it generalizes nicely to cover this as well.

On the other hand, you could either be a Mystic Theurge/Mystic Theurge (in which case you get all of your spellcasting at its normal rate, but none of your class features - utterly pointless), or you could be a Mystic Theurge/some-other-spellcaster/Mystic Theurge, in which case you lose 3 levels of Mystic Theurge (base) casting, as well as take a -4 penalty to your Caster Level when casting Mystic Theurge spells of the same type as your other class. I don't think either's broken; both is probably over-weak, in fact.

Zaydos
2010-08-15, 06:15 PM
Assassin was a PrC in 3.0 just like in 3.5. That said Rogue variant cannot become other type of rogue variant.

Also maybe make the penalty for only advances arcane or divine be -1 for every 3 levels in such classes rounded down instead of up. That means it will usually be -1 less, still has the fluff, but is less painful in game. Does make dipping easier.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-15, 06:40 PM
I don't think that really solves things. I mean, PrCs don't come in levels less than 3, so you're guaranteeing at least a -1 penalty. And as much as I detest efforts to inhibit dipping, it does seem to me like poor design to have a situation where dipping is strictly better than not - which is kind of what you describe.