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Lix Lorn
2010-08-15, 09:31 AM
Weapon Finesse

Prerequisites: Dex 13

Benefit: You may utilise your Dexterity Modifier instead of your Strength Modifier on melee attack rolls for any weapon you wield. In addition, weapons that can are marked as finesse weapons, (light weapons, plus the whip, rapier, spiked chain, as long as they're made for your size category) can also use your Dexterity Modifier instead of your strength modifier for Damage rolls.

Greater Weapon Finesse

Prerequisites: Dex 15, Weapon Finesse

Benefit: You may use your Dexterity Modifier in place of your Strength Modifier on all melee attack and damage rolls.

DrWeird
2010-08-15, 09:33 AM
So, according to this...I can use my dexterity modifier to swing my bastard sword? My greataxe?

Mongoose87
2010-08-15, 09:56 AM
So, according to this...I can use my dexterity modifier to swing my bastard sword? My greataxe?

At the "low" cost of two feats. It's balanced, IMO.

Lix Lorn
2010-08-15, 10:21 AM
Glad to hear it.

Roc Ness
2010-08-15, 10:24 AM
Hooray! Katana finesse! :smallbiggrin:

DrWeird
2010-08-15, 10:25 AM
Well, that makes...very little sense. Being nimble won't help you heft some of the heaviest weapons in the entire game; I can't really complain about that, I never play classes who'd need it. The problem here - at least the only one I think is glaring, is that it negates the entire purpose of composite bows.

It, it just doesn't make sense. It just feels like an excuse for rangers and rogues to turn into kill machines for the cost of two feats. I thought it was already pretty balanced.

Spiryt
2010-08-15, 10:27 AM
It, it just doesn't make sense.

Just like entire 3.5 combat system. Especially that nonsense about "finesse" and "non finesse" weapons.

It's pretty okay probably.

Roc Ness
2010-08-15, 10:31 AM
While I'm not sure about the rogues, I think you'll agree with me that the rangers need more killing machine status. :smallbiggrin:

DrWeird
2010-08-15, 10:35 AM
Nnnot really. This totally counteracts the reason that characters that get two weapon fighting and sneak attacks can finesse certain weapons.

Mongoose87
2010-08-15, 10:54 AM
Nnnot really. This totally counteracts the reason that characters that get two weapon fighting and sneak attacks can finesse certain weapons.

How does it counteract the reason characters get TWF? I'd say it syngergizes well with TWF, which needs all the help it can get.

DrWeird
2010-08-15, 11:07 AM
Well, with this, I don't have to put in a single point in strength - everybody can just put their highest martial stat in dexterity, and their AC and attacks and damage is now all consolidated.

I'd really think that the second feat should require, in the current mechanics, a high BAB and dexterity. It definitely should be for levels 10+.

Lix Lorn
2010-08-15, 11:09 AM
Well, Dr Weird, theoretically, a character with Str 3, Dex 3 can wield a Battleaxe. This feat just means that a character with Str 3 Dex 18 can actually do something with it.
As well, if you're dextrous, you can get around your enemy's blocks, and you can hit in a painful place-thus hitting and damage.

Plus, your pre-last post... makes no sense. Sorry. Reword it so I get what you're talking about?

(Also, Bastard Sword proficiency requires Str 13)

What's more, Rogues and Rangers aren't exactly killing machines. In fact, melee in general couldn't suffer much by being improved. XD

Finally, Composite Bows aren't negated. It says melee.

Edit: Why?
You could equally put not a single point in Dexterity, and wear heavy armour. Makes no difference.

DrWeird
2010-08-15, 11:22 AM
I don't quite understand what you mean, but I'll try to explain what I meant.

Rogues and rangers and such are...quick. Quick with lighter weapons that they can hide and conceal. If they take these two feats, they can start dual wielding any one-handed weapon at levels when it should be, like, two light weapons.

With these feats, it negates the purpose of strength. That is, to represent the ability to wield heavy objects, whereas dexterity is your nimbleness or agility or whatever you'd like to call it.


As well, if you're dextrous, you can get around your enemy's blocks, and you can hit in a painful place-thus hitting and damage.

yeah, but being dextrous won't help you heft a battleaxe. A rapier? Sure. Battleaxe? No.

I should clarify it's not the entire feat I can't stomach, it's being able to wield ANY weapon and use dexterity for attack rolls. I really don't like shooting people down, so my proposition is to require, for the second feat, a BAB higher than 10, and a certain high degree of dexterity. That is, to get it at a level where it is useful but they have to earn it.

Lix Lorn
2010-08-15, 11:27 AM
And mechanically, the difference between dual wielding light and one handed weapons is about 1d6 to 1d10, maybe. Not much difference.

It won't help you LIFT the axe, no. But if you're strong enough to lift it, it will help you wield it. If you've ever fought with a melee weapon, you know that dexterity is VITALLY important. You can use strength-or dexterity. Always.

Admittedly, axes are pretty exclusively Strength... but hey. It's fantasy.

Spiryt
2010-08-15, 11:30 AM
yeah, but being dextrous won't help you heft a battleaxe. A rapier? Sure. Battleaxe? No.


It would. At least in reality.

The whole problem of weapon finesse is that you use either Dex or Strength to use it and plainly retarded distinction between "light" finessable weapons and "heavy" ones...

This topic was often touched in this forum.


You can use strength-or dexterity. Always.

Admittedly, axes are pretty exclusively Strength... but hey. It's fantasy.

Not really, especially that coining such terms like "strength" or "dexterity" to describe real beings, not 6 attribute characters is tricky at beast.

Axe used only with "strength" will hit hard... And that's it.

Not to mention that it's actually impossible to hit anything hard without quickness, coordination and other stuff put under "Dex" in 3.5

DrWeird
2010-08-15, 11:30 AM
I don't play enough dual-wielding characters to make a case, but my only real suggestion if this is used is requiring a high dexterity and a bab at least higher than ten for the second feat.

Lix Lorn
2010-08-15, 11:34 AM
I really don't think it's necessary. I have Dex 13 at best, and my fighting style is dex based.
While dual wielding katana. So Yeah.

Plus, my previously mentioned Dex 8 Str 18 heavy armour character works at level 1.
So, with TWO FEATS, why can't a Dex 18 Str 8 light armour person work at level 1?

DrWeird
2010-08-15, 11:42 AM
Look, all I'm saying is, the benefit from these two feats created means that there is no reason to invest in anything but dual-wielded weapons of any pairing, and really seems like a homebrew for you to get your dual katana fix and make it work to me. It's not just a question of plausibility which in fantasy games can be easily ignored; it's a question of mechanics, when suddenly you can wield two longswords like they were daggers at level one when your dexterity is barely higher than the measured human average in the game. That's my final word on it; I've stated what I thought, and you may choose to accept it or ignore it.

Lix Lorn
2010-08-15, 11:47 AM
Reason one: You can do that IN REAL LIFE. AS I STATED. CAUSE *I* CAN DO IT.
Reason two: TWF sucks. So it doesn't make much difference.
Reason three: Mechanically, there's no difference between having high strength, low dex and armour, and having high dex, low strength, and two feats spent. The latter is probably weaker: Feats are FAR better tan gold.

Temotei
2010-08-15, 11:50 AM
(Also, Bastard Sword proficiency requires Str 13)

Wielding it in two hands makes it a martial weapon and gets rid of that prerequisite.

Oh, and this is going on the list. :smalltongue:

On topic: The feats are balanced, in my opinion. You don't need feats to make Strength work for weapons, after all. Spending some feats to make yourself slightly less MAD, more flavorful, and have more fun is a good thing in my book.

Oslecamo
2010-08-15, 12:00 PM
Reason two: TWF sucks. So it doesn't make much difference.
Reason three: Mechanically, there's no difference between having high strength, low dex and armour, and having high dex, low strength, and two feats spent. The latter is probably weaker: Feats are FAR better tan gold.

There is several big diferences.
-High Dex>>> Armor because it applies to touch attacks and dex boosts reflex saves. Also Dex doesn't screw your skills or slows you down.
-On top of that Dex boosts iniative that can decide battles. Str boosts carrying capacity wich can decide... Not that much really.
-High dex also makes you better at ranged combat and boosts several good skills (hide, move silently, escape artist). Str-based skills are weaker (what was the last time you saw someone use swim/jump/climb?) and besides that str only matters for grapple checks.
-Combat reflexes, a quite important feat for melee builds, is dex-based.

So two feats is actualy a cheap price to allow me to make a melee character solely focused on one stat while geting several free goodies on top (improved stealth, iniative, reflex saves, touch AC, ranged attacks).

Heck, I don't even need two feats. Rapier, make sure you have Str 13 to pick power attack, wield it with two hands to get 1,5 Dex bonus to damage and go to town. You're superior to any str-based melee build exept the most extreme uber chargers, and even then you're still just one feat away from being superior to them too.

Feats are more valuable than gold, but being able to focus in one single stat is more valuable than feats.

DrWeird
2010-08-15, 12:02 PM
Thank you for putting it in better terms than I could, Oslecamo.

Temotei
2010-08-15, 12:05 PM
There is several big diferences.
-High Dex>>> Armor because it applies to touch attacks and dex boosts reflex saves.
-On top of that Dex boosts iniative that can decide battles. Str boosts carrying capacity wich can decide... Not that much really.
-High dex also makes you better at ranged combat and boosts several good skills (hide, move silently). Str-based skills are weaker (what was the last time you saw someone use swim/jump/climb?) and besides that str only matters for grapple checks.
-Combat reflexes, a quite important feat for melee builds, is dex-based.

So two feats is actualy a cheap price to allow me to make a melee character solely focused on one stat while geting several free goodies on top (improved stealth, iniative, reflex saves, touch AC, ranged attacks).

Heck, I don't even need two feats. Rapier, make sure you have Str 13 to pick power attack, wield it with two hands to get 1,5 Dex bonus to damage and go to town. You're superior to any str-based melee build exept the most extreme uber chargers, and even then you're still just one feat away from being superior to them too.

Feats are more valuable than gold, but being able to focus in one single stat is more valuable than feats.

Rapiers can't be wielded in two hands for 1.5x Strength bonus to damage.

You still will probably need Constitution, though. Just saying. It's not a strong argument, as any other fighter will spend an equal amount on it (most likely), but hey.

Oslecamo
2010-08-15, 12:11 PM
Rapiers can't be wielded in two hands for 1.5x Strength bonus to damage.

Says who?

Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed

When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1Ĺ times your Strength bonus. However, you donít get this higher Strength bonus when using a light weapon with two hands.

The rules are clear. It doesn't need to be a two-handed weapon. As long as you grab it with both hands and it isn't a light weapon it hits harder than holding it with a single hand. Rapier isn't a light weapon so you can grab it with both hands for extra damage.

Savage Species even expands this by stating that creatures with multiple arms can use them all to grab a single weapon and increase the Str multiplier even more.



You still will probably need Constitution, though. Just saying. It's not a strong argument, as any other fighter will spend an equal amount on it (most likely), but hey.

Everybody but elven wizards with fairy mystery initiate invests in Con. Even druids. Is a given. Unless you're planning into becoming a necropolitan but anyone can do it.

Spiryt
2010-08-15, 12:13 PM
Geeez.


You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isnít a light weapon for you. You canít wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1Ĺ times your Strength bonus to damage.


From rapier section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#rapier)

Oslecamo
2010-08-15, 12:16 PM
Geeez.



From rapier section.

Use a spiked chain in that case. Costs you a feat but half the melee builds will be picking one anyway.

And even then, the points about improved iniative/touch AC/stealth for a Dex based build still apply.

Zaydos
2010-08-15, 12:20 PM
There's already a feat that lets you use Dex for damage. It is considered a good feat despite requiring Weapon Finesse to add Dex to Attack, and requiring a Shadow Hand stance and Shadow Hand weapon to use. It's called Shadow Blade. It's a good fully usable feat. At the cost of 2 feats, and either another 2 feats or a level of Swordsage you can get a worse version of this ability and it is still considered a good deal. Shadow Blade costs you the ability to use big weapons, and the ability to use non-Shadow Hand stances, this is a decent cost in addition to 2 feats (and either 2 more or Swordsage).

This is an in every way better version of Shadow Hand for 1 feat, and then an even better version for a 2nd. You don't need that. This actually makes Str above 13 pointless for 2 feats even on a Power Attack based character, so it's not exclusive to 2-Weapon Fighting either. Also Two-Weapon Fighting gets its damage from number of attacks, with the ability to consolidate all your stats into one score it gets not just a small boost but a very large one. At level 1 this is an even bigger boost (Elven Fighter, 2 Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse; 20 Dex, 2 shortswords; Studded Leather Armor; 18 AC, +4/+4 to hit, 1d6+5 damage per hit). That's not a particularly optimized build either; halfling sacrifices 1 damage per hit for +1 to hit and AC and is probably better.

137ben
2010-08-15, 12:28 PM
It doesn't seem to make sense that a giant's hammer would benefit from dexterity.

Temotei
2010-08-15, 12:32 PM
It doesn't seem to make sense that a giant's hammer would benefit from dexterity.

Sense? What is this sense you speak of? This is D&D! :smallamused:

Maybe splitting these into three feats would be better, but I'm not positive.

Lix Lorn
2010-08-15, 12:41 PM
I could split it into three if everyone agrees that would be better.


-High Dex>>> Armor because it applies to touch attacks and dex boosts reflex saves. Also Dex doesn't screw your skills or slows you down.
-On top of that Dex boosts iniative that can decide battles. Str boosts carrying capacity wich can decide... Not that much really.
-High dex also makes you better at ranged combat and boosts several good skills (hide, move silently, escape artist). Str-based skills are weaker (what was the last time you saw someone use swim/jump/climb?) and besides that str only matters for grapple checks.
-Combat reflexes, a quite important feat for melee builds, is dex-based.
I dunno about the first part. Dex 20, which would require a +race at level 1 (Plus a flaw to get the second feat to actually take the second of these feats) gives you +5 armour. MEDIUM armour can give you +5 armour.

...your other points are relevant. :/

Oslecamo
2010-08-15, 01:07 PM
I could split it into three if everyone agrees that would be better.

Probably. Three feats starts to be a more fair price.



I dunno about the first part. Dex 20, which would require a +race at level 1 (Plus a flaw to get the second feat to actually take the second of these feats) gives you +5 armour. MEDIUM armour can give you +5 armour.

Chainmail gives you +5 bonus yes, but it costs 150 GP. Unless you're really lucky you can't afford that right at the begginning. You can only dream about fullplate untill you reach lv 3-4. Also racial Dex is easier to come by. Halfing, elves, goblins(air variant gives a whooping +4), kobolds. What LA 0 races gives extra strenght? Half orcs? Orcs? Water orcs are kinda good if you don't mind just being good at smashing stuff.

Lix Lorn
2010-08-15, 01:13 PM
Hm. Good point.
How would you make them play out? I mean, they fall into two feats simply, but three is less easy.

Zaydos
2010-08-15, 01:25 PM
Weapon Finesse: See PHB.

Improved Weapon Finesse:
Prerequisites: Dex 15+, BAB +3
Benefit: When wielding a weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse you may also use Dex instead of Str for damage (except better worded)

Oversized Weapon Finesse:
Prerequisites: Dex 13+, Str 10+
Benefit: You may apply the benefits of Weapon Finesse and Improved Weapon Finesse to any weapon, not just light weapons and those especially marked.

Something like this. Still better than Shadow Blade which is already considered a good choice.

Lix Lorn
2010-08-15, 01:44 PM
I'd remove the BAB requirements. I like that with my versions, a Rogue can actually fight from first level.

Hyooz
2010-08-15, 02:04 PM
You do know the hoops people usually jump through to get something as good as Dex to damage right? One feat to make Dex the be-all-end-all of melee fighting is a little much.

Zaydos
2010-08-15, 02:04 PM
With just Weapon Finesse a rogue can fight from 1st level. 20 Dex and Studded Leather Armor gives a halfling rogue 19 AC and a +6 to hit. Damage is low but with flanking you get 1d4+1d6 damage. Still lower than a half-orc's 2-hander (2d6+7 assuming 20 Str) but your AC will be noticeably better than such a character's 14 + Dex (average wealth is 150 GP for fighter less for barbarian, greatsword is 50 of that and then basic adventuring gear means that the fighter will be stuck with scale mail's +4 to AC, also won't have very good Dex with most point buys). The half-orc will have more damage (he'll one hit most anything at Lv 1) but you'll have much more survivability, and skills which balance it out. A +5 to a rogue's damage isn't needed at level one (average is 6 with sneak attack already, which is more than most CR 1/2 creatures; CR 1 are at least supposed to survive one-shots). Maybe reduce the BAB bonus to +2 so a 3rd level rogue can get it, but their damage is actually better in comparison at that level. Only when Power Attack really starts running is this feat needed and until then it is vastly superior (as Dex helps Ref saves, Initiative, hide, move silently, AC, etc), once Power Attack gets its game on this feat has competition but Power Attack is pretty much useless at level 1 (+2 damage isn't as good as +1 to hit at Lv 1 since you're one-hitting enemies regardless). It's at higher levels with Pounce and Leap Attack that Power Attacking becomes worth it, and that's when this feat is needed not before.

Lix Lorn
2010-08-15, 02:29 PM
A rogue would have other feats they had to take anyway. With them as three feats, you need flaws to get the whole chain at level one. Or Human Fighter.

Temotei
2010-08-15, 02:35 PM
A rogue would have other feats they had to take anyway. With them as three feats, you need flaws to get the whole chain at level one. Or Human Fighter.

On that note, placing BAB requirements on the other two feats wouldn't be a bad idea.

DaddyMugi
2010-08-15, 02:38 PM
{Scrubbed}

Zaydos
2010-08-15, 02:44 PM
{Scrubbed}

No because 1) that wouldn't be nice, 2) Dex to damage with finesse weapons does make some sense. I will not rant about katanas.

Oslecamo
2010-08-15, 03:23 PM
A rogue would have other feats they had to take anyway. With them as three feats, you need flaws to get the whole chain at level one. Or Human Fighter.

On the other hand, rogues aren't suposed to be pure combat machines. Yes the orc fighter hits harder but the rogue can hide and snipe stuff with crossbows. They're quite effective at 1st level.

Plus sneak attack by itself is already meant to be "dexterity to damage" since it's suposed to be the rogue aiming at the soft parts of their oponents.

PId6
2010-08-15, 03:55 PM
I see no problems with these feats, and honestly, I'd never ever take the second one. There's simply no reason to, since you'd get at best 1 or 2 extra damage from one-handed compared to light weapons, and Spiked Chain exists if you want to two-hand or get reach.

Ultimately, these give you a minor bit of extra damage and not much else. So what? A rogue that deals 10d6+20 extra damage already won't suddenly break the game with 4-5 more points of damage. There are still plenty of reasons to focus on strength, including tripping, grappling, and the ease of increasing it (via Rage, Frenzy, Expansion, etc).

Lix Lorn
2010-08-15, 04:05 PM
On that note, placing BAB requirements on the other two feats wouldn't be a bad idea.
:/
I really, really don't like that Weapon Finesse requires BAB. None of the classes that sterotypically use it (Rogue, bard...) can take it until third level.

Hyooz
2010-08-15, 04:17 PM
:/
I really, really don't like that Weapon Finesse requires BAB. None of the classes that sterotypically use it (Rogue, bard...) can take it until third level.

And? Sometimes you have to wait for nice things.

PId6
2010-08-15, 04:27 PM
And? Sometimes you have to wait for nice things.
BAB requirement on Weapon Finesse is one of the most idiotic design decisions in the game. The very types of characters who want the feat won't be able to satisfy the requirement, and their entire combat styles hinge on it. Forcing entire classes to suck for 2 levels at the beginning before they can finally be competent (and not even all that strong, just competent) is NOT good game design.

In fact, Weapon Finesse should never have been a feat; it should have been a default combat style to begin with (just like TWF should have been). The philosophy of mundane characters having to spend feats on everything they could want to do is one of the many reasons why 3.5 casters are leagues beyond non-casters. In the end, all that does is punish out-of-the-ordinary character concepts.

Temotei
2010-08-15, 04:37 PM
BAB requirement on Weapon Finesse is one of the most idiotic design decisions in the game. The very types of characters who want the feat won't be able to satisfy the requirement, and their entire combat styles hinge on it. Forcing entire classes to suck for 2 levels at the beginning before they can finally be competent (and not even all that strong, just competent) is NOT good game design.

In fact, Weapon Finesse should never have been a feat; it should have been a default combat style to begin with (just like TWF should have been). The philosophy of mundane characters having to spend feats on everything they could want to do is one of the many reasons why 3.5 casters are leagues beyond non-casters. In the end, all that does is punish out-of-the-ordinary character concepts.

Well said. It's only one level until you get it, though.

+0, +1, +2, +3, +3, +4...

PId6
2010-08-15, 04:38 PM
Well said. It's only one level until you get it, though.
Only if you get a bonus feat at 2nd level, which normal rogues/bards do not.

Temotei
2010-08-15, 04:43 PM
Only if you get a bonus feat at 2nd level, which normal rogues/bards do not.

Poor pure rogues. :smallsigh:

The only feats that should exist to do what Weapon Finesse does are the ones that work for other abilities, like Zen Archery for Wisdom to ranged rolls and the homebrew swashbuckler class feature-feat for Intelligence...

Oslecamo
2010-08-15, 04:49 PM
In the end, all that does is punish out-of-the-ordinary character concepts.

I would like a character that can kill a fully armored trained warrior by staring at them with their eyes. Or bludeon trough his armor with a teddy bear (actualy doable with ToB but even then not at lv1). Or stand upside down on one finger while singing and spinning despite my physical stats sucking wich will somehow make my oponent get dizzy and colapse. Should the system support those "out-of-the-ordinary" character concepts out of the bat?

Or should the more exotic fighting styles actualy be harder to achieve? Specially when in the case of Dex-based warrior they come with a lot of extra perks like better AC, iniative, built-in stealth and ranged combat, just as good at resisting trips and grapple as the str-based build? The last two inferior tactics anyway as bigger monsters laugh at them, while a dex based warrior can sneak trough the huge golem and snipe the leviathan from a safe distance?

PId6
2010-08-15, 05:07 PM
I would like a character that can kill a fully armored trained warrior by staring at them with their eyes. Or bludeon trough his armor with a teddy bear (actualy doable with ToB but even then not at lv1). Or stand upside down on one finger while singing and spinning despite my physical stats sucking wich will somehow make my oponent get dizzy and colapse. Should the system support those "out-of-the-ordinary" character concepts out of the bat?
By "Out of the ordinary" combat styles, I meant every combat style besides the main one. The main combat style, in this case, is max Str two-handed melee fighting. Every combat style besides that are either feat-taxed heavily (Weapon Finesse, TWF, archery), or just plain suck by default (unarmed, sword-and-board). This isn't just completely weird character concepts like a teddy bear smacker; these include numerous archetypical fantasy styles that should be just as viable as the main one.


Or should the more exotic fighting styles actualy be harder to achieve? Specially when in the case of Dex-based warrior they come with a lot of extra perks like better AC, iniative, built-in stealth and ranged combat, just as good at resisting trips and grapple as the str-based build? The last two inferior tactics anyway as bigger monsters laugh at them, while a dex based warrior can sneak trough the huge golem and snipe the leviathan from a safe distance?
They're actually significantly worse at grapples than Str-based characters, since grapple only care about Str (and the minor boost to touch AC isn't going to change the "miss only on natural 1" attack bonuses of most monsters). In addition, Dex-based ones have a harder time increasing Dex (Rage, Expansion, and similar can boost Str massively without much effort), and are more MAD and still more feat-expensive if they want to Power Attack (need 13 Str, need EWP: Spiked Chain or similar).

Besides, these feats don't improve Dex-based combat much at all. Weapon Finesse already exists. Spiked Chain already exists. Shadow Blade already exists. Besides Dex to damage without needing to spend on Shadow Blade, what else does it do? The minor damage boost is negligible at higher levels, and rogues/TWF rangers haven't been winning any awards for power lately.

Oslecamo
2010-08-15, 05:25 PM
By "Out of the ordinary" combat styles, I meant every combat style besides the main one. The main combat style, in this case, is max Str two-handed melee fighting. Every combat style besides that are either feat-taxed heavily (Weapon Finesse, TWF, archery), or just plain suck by default (unarmed, sword-and-board). This isn't just completely weird character concepts like a teddy bear smacker; these include numerous archetypical fantasy styles that should be just as viable as the main one.

Sword and board it's quite effective at low levels when enemies drop from a single longsword blow. It keeps being effective if you face hordes of mooks instead of some big monsters.

Unarmed is a romantic concept more than anything. Pointy sticks are superior to naked fists, point, let alone magic pointy sticks from exotic materials. Even Journey to the West has the local kung fu genius smashing his way trough with a two-handed weapon.

Meanwhile big two handed weapon is also feat starved as you need power attack and then all the uber charge stuff.



They're actually significantly worse at grapples than Str-based characters, since grapple only care about Str (and the minor boost to touch AC isn't going to change the "miss only on natural 1" attack bonuses of most monsters).

Escape artist, making rogues escape big monsters since 2000. Also handy when you're tied up after being captured, squeezing trough tight passages and even walls of force if you get it high enough.



In addition, Dex-based ones have a harder time increasing Dex (Rage, Expansion, and similar can boost Str massively without much effort),

There's a rage variant that boosts Dex. There's a cleric spell that gives out a flat +10 to Dex. There's plenty of polymorph forms with obscene Dex. They're just less known because people are used to look for Str boosters.



and are more MAD and still more feat-expensive if they want to Power Attack (need 13 Str, need EWP: Spiked Chain or similar).

Str builds also need Dex for some AC and combat reflexes. And spiked chain is the best melee weapon for both sides.



Besides, these feats don't improve Dex-based combat much at all. Weapon Finesse already exists. Spiked Chain already exists. Shadow Blade already exists.

And like already pointed out costs either a level and a feat or three feats, and then needing to always use a shaddow hand stance, wich locks you from more usefull ToB stances.




Besides Dex to damage without needing to spend on Shadow Blade, what else does it do? The minor damage boost is negligible at higher levels
Think higher. With this a rogue can pick up a lance and start stacking lance mounted charge multipliers while being dex based.



and rogues/TWF rangers haven't been winning any awards for power lately.

Oh they have. TWF rogues are always poping everywhere. I remember a challenge to make effective characters with the elite array whitout magic cheese. I won it with a whisper gnome fully focused on Dex.

PId6
2010-08-15, 06:09 PM
Sword and board it's quite effective at low levels when enemies drop from a single longsword blow. It keeps being effective if you face hordes of mooks instead of some big monsters.
Being useful at levels 1-2 isn't the best recommendation for a particular combat style. At CR 3, you have Medium Air Elementals with 26 HP, Dire Apes with 35 HP, and Ghasts with 29 HP (random examples). 1d8+4 damage isn't going to kill any of those too easily.

Besides, if you're facing hordes of mooks, you're better off with a two-hander and Cleave, so you've a good chance of dropping two (or more) enemies every round. The +2 AC from having a shield is just so worthless compared to the better damage you can have from a two-hander (and Animated shields at higher levels further this gap).


Meanwhile big two handed weapon is also feat starved as you need power attack and then all the uber charge stuff.
Two-handed comes with its own source of damage though, unlike Finesse TWF. With THF, you can splash levels of fighter for feats, splash barbarian for Rage, splash warblade for maneuvers, or whatever. With TWF you're stuck with classes that provide precision damage, since you don't get a default source of damage from the feats you're taking.

So it's a question of needing feats vs needing feats + class levels. Which one do you think wins out?


Escape artist, making rogues escape big monsters since 2000. Also handy when you're tied up after being captured, squeezing trough tight passages and even walls of force if you get it high enough.
Escape artist is just terrible. For one thing, you have to max ranks in it to be worth anything, and rogues are already skill-starved as is. There are no size modifiers, so being small won't help you squeeze out, while being big lets the baddies hold you much easier. It also doesn't prevent grapples, only applying when trying to get out of it, and it takes a standard action to use. That means that a monster who Improved Grabs you every turn can lock you down completely since you need to spend all your actions getting out. Escape Artist is just a horrible "defense" against grapple.


There's a rage variant that boosts Dex. There's a cleric spell that gives out a flat +10 to Dex. There's plenty of polymorph forms with obscene Dex. They're just less known because people are used to look for Str boosters.
There's no Rage variant to do it that I can find. If you mean Whirling Frenzy, nope, doesn't boost Dex, just dodge AC/Ref saves. Divine Agility is a 5th level cleric spell, meaning it takes 9 levels of cleric to get working, unlike the 1 level of PsyWar or Barbarian. If you UMD it, that gets very expensive and even somewhat risky (since the check is quite high for a scroll). And it's an enhancement bonus, so it doesn't stack with Gloves of Dexterity, meaning it only really gives you +4 at best.

As for Polymorph, that's banned or heavily frowned upon in most campaigns I've seen, and if you're turning into a high-Dex creature, you're not turning into a 12-headed hydra.


Str builds also need Dex for some AC and combat reflexes. And spiked chain is the best melee weapon for both sides.
You are right on this one, though it is an extra feat's difference still. Combat Reflexes and Spiked Chain are only used on control builds too, rather than straight out ubercharging. AC isn't needed when Shock Trooper sends it through the floor anyway.


And like already pointed out costs either a level and a feat or three feats, and then needing to always use a shaddow hand stance, wich locks you from more usefull ToB stances.
The point was that everything you could want already exists; this simply makes it slightly easier to get (one feat less, to be precise). Assassin's Stance is already coveted by every rogue ever, so that's no problem.


Think higher. With this a rogue can pick up a lance and start stacking lance mounted charge multipliers while being dex based.
So... you've spent a bunch of feats, used up gold (or feat) for a mount that won't die to every Fireball, managed to find a battlefield that you can actually use a mount on, and still only managed to make a single attack? Even with charge multipliers, you can do way better with full attacking via TWF than a single attack with lance since Sneak Attack isn't multiplied. It's also a lot more difficult to maneuver for flanks when charging on a mount, so actually getting SA off is an issue.


Oh they have. TWF rogues are always poping everywhere. I remember a challenge to make effective characters with the elite array whitout magic cheese. I won it with a whisper gnome fully focused on Dex.
They're strong, but not the strongest. Str-based ubercharging will always deal more damage. PsyWars and ToB characters are more versatile and usually more powerful as well. Duskblades can probably deal more damage, while Factotums and Beguilers are more versatile out-of-combat. And of course they're nothing compared to T2 or T1 full casters.

Jane_Smith
2010-08-15, 06:20 PM
-shrug- Ive been using 'incredible finesse' in all my games for two-weapon fighter types, and allowing players to use it in games I run. If a dm doesnt like it, I just leave. And, no, dex to damage isnt that powerful - IF you limit it to the same weapons that weapon finesse normally applies to.

Light weapons like shortswords, or weapons like scimitars, arnt really that massively overpowered with +5-+6 damage at level 3-5. Spiked chain? Ha. If you were a -real- spiked chain user, you wouldnt "CARE" about damage. You would be boosting your reach and your movement speed somehow and kiting the hell out of anything you fight. If your focusing on raw damage, your doing it wrong.

However, most dm's usually allow my 'incredible finesse' to stack with str bonus damage to light/etc weapons - but things that are immune to critical hits/sneak attacks are also immune to that bonus damage. So... ya, trying to nimbly assault a ghost with a dagger isnt nessicarly going to do you any favors. :P

Andion Isurand
2010-08-16, 07:19 PM
I would like to see the Insightful Strike ability of the swashbuckler made into a feat... with the damage bonus from Intelligence modifier capped by your Dexterity modifier. Where finesse meets the knowledge of proper placement.

But as far as the heavy weapons go... just because its balanced mechanically, doesn't mean it's done in good taste. I think these feats blur the distinctions between two fighting spheres a bit too much.

Temotei
2010-08-16, 07:23 PM
I would like to see the Insightful Strike ability of the swashbuckler made into a feat... with the damage bonus from Intelligence modifier capped by your Dexterity modifier. Where finesse meets the knowledge of proper placement.

Minus the last part, someone made insightful strike into Insightful Strike not too long ago.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160622).

Andion Isurand
2010-08-16, 07:30 PM
Yeah, I saw it, its just that some feel the add X to Y stuff is somewhat unfair, and I figured if the Int bonus to damage were limited by your Dex ability to get the weapon to a vital spot... that it would help balance by making the feat more MAD.

Of course, since the ability exists as it does for the swashbuckler, thats fine also. Personally I'm fine with either incarnation of Insightful Strike.

Lix Lorn
2010-08-16, 07:31 PM
But as far as the heavy weapons go... just because its balanced mechanically, doesn't mean it's done in good taste. I think these feats blur the distinctions between two fighting spheres a bit too much.
I still think that trying to apply reality in the world of d&d is fruitless. But I know many disagree.

I also think that anyone who abuses this feat-axes WOULD be very hard to use dextuously-needs a very, very good excuse.

Hyooz
2010-08-17, 02:28 AM
I still think that trying to apply reality in the world of d&d is fruitless. But I know many disagree.

I also think that anyone who abuses this feat-axes WOULD be very hard to use dextuously-needs a very, very good excuse.

... why? You just contradicted yourself. On one hand, applying reality to DnD is fruitless and we shouldn't bother with it.

On the other, Mr. Dextrous Axe guy needs a good reason he can do these things beyond the mechanics being there, and super easy to get.

Ashtagon
2010-08-17, 02:40 AM
It may or may not be balanced (but instinct says no, since Dexterity is already a very powerful ability). But it fails on a more important test: "Is this what ability X is supposed to be able to do?" I know there is a lot of ability sloshing to going on in homebrew, and even in raw to a certain extent, but I like the feel that Strength and Dexterity actually refer to different attributes, and aren't just numbers to be shifted around to suit the needs of char-op. Character concept shouldn't just be and feats and class levels; it should be reflected in his abilities too.

Spiryt
2010-08-17, 02:58 AM
I also think that anyone who abuses this feat-axes WOULD be very hard to use dextuously-needs a very, very good excuse.

WHY?

If axes, why not maces, halberds, hammers of whatever?

Have you ever fought with axe? Or did anything with it?

Why shouldn't guy trying to fight with axe benefit from


hand-eye coordination, agility, reflexes, and balance

Seriously, the whole premise behind weapon finesse is, like I said, RETARDED.

You can fight 'finessely' with kukri, but I guess you can only rise longsword up to bring it down as hard as you can.... :smalltongue:

Feats like that are pretty okay, good way to give players some choice, although in ideal game, both strength and dexterity should contribute to melee attack IMO.

lesser_minion
2010-08-17, 06:40 AM
I still think that trying to apply reality in the world of d&d is fruitless.

Not really. If a 9th level swordsman charging across open terrain gets utterly wtfpwned by the 9th level archer waiting for him, is that a problem? Is there a problem if the 9th level archer gets wtfpwned by the same swordsman ambushing him in a forest?

The way ability scores work in D&D, I think strength, intelligence, and dexterity all make sense as the governing attribute for melee attacks. I don't think there's really any good argument out there for favouring any of those as a 'default', either.


But it fails on a more important test: "Is this what ability X is supposed to be able to do?"

I'm not convinced by this. Being able to hit someone where it hurts is more important than being able to hit them hard, and in an abstract system like D&D, the only thing governing your ability to hit someone where it hurts is the size of your advantage. It doesn't matter so much what your advantage is.

Lix Lorn
2010-08-17, 07:36 AM
Axes are awkward because they do damage through weight.

Of course, with enough Dexterity, you could do it anyway. (Shrugs)

@Hiyoot: You shouldn't stick to reality exactly, but at least handwave it.

Roc Ness
2010-08-17, 07:54 AM
What about making people require one point of Dex mod for every two pounds of a weapon to finesse each weapon? :smallconfused:

So a Falchion or Greatsword would need a Dex of 18 to finesse, a Scythe a Dex of 20 and a Greataxe a Dex of 22? Weapons of mithral would halve this, too, making mithral weapons useful.

aethernox
2010-08-17, 07:54 AM
I think that the first feat is definitely a good thing, and I have no complaints regarding it. However, I don't like the second at all.

Firstly, because it's at fault for a good deal of the complaints in this thread, and you've just got to accept that getting dex-to-damage on Axes just irks some people.

Secondly, because it isn't worth a feat for melee combatants.

Mongoose87
2010-08-17, 07:59 AM
What about making people require one point of Dex mod for every two pounds of a weapon to finesse each weapon? :smallconfused:

So a Falchion or Greatsword would need a Dex of 18 to finesse, a Scythe a Dex of 20 and a Greataxe a Dex of 22? Weapons of mithral would halve this, too, making mithral weapons useful.

Perhaps, since you're going to take that Dex, anyways, make it 10 Str +1/2 weight required.

Lix Lorn
2010-08-17, 08:02 AM
What about making people require one point of Dex mod for every two pounds of a weapon to finesse each weapon? :smallconfused:

So a Falchion or Greatsword would need a Dex of 18 to finesse, a Scythe a Dex of 20 and a Greataxe a Dex of 22? Weapons of mithral would halve this, too, making mithral weapons useful.
Hmm... :/ Kinda ruins the point of being able to fight starting at first level. I really don't like having to change weapons and things as you level up.

Roc Ness
2010-08-17, 08:42 AM
Hmm... :/ Kinda ruins the point of being able to fight starting at first level. I really don't like having to change weapons and things as you level up.

I dunno. At 1st level a typical Dex character would probably have a 16, that'll be enough to finesse a battleaxe, at least...

Extra benefits with weapon focus? :smallbiggrin:

Lix Lorn
2010-08-17, 09:14 AM
Do you KNOW how expensive mithral weapons are? @_@

...Weapon Focus and three Finesse feats. Yeah. XD Smart.

lesser_minion
2010-08-17, 09:17 AM
Do you KNOW how expensive mithral weapons are? @_@

...Weapon Focus and three Finesse feats. Yeah. XD Smart.

Meh. Weapon Supremacy is only terrible because of the sheer amount of junk you need before you're allowed to take it.

Roc Ness
2010-08-17, 10:02 AM
Do you KNOW how expensive mithral weapons are? @_@

...Weapon Focus and three Finesse feats. Yeah. XD Smart.

*Cowers*

I meant use weapon focus to treat the focused weapon as having half the weight?

Alternatively, play a halfling. Small greataxes only weigh half as much as regular greataxes... XD

Lix Lorn
2010-08-17, 10:45 AM
Oooooh. THAT would make WF better, but only for this. Hmmm...

Lol. I was going to play a Mephling with a Jovar with this, then I rolled MAD-happy stats. But nonetheless, I stand by them.

Krazddndfreek
2010-08-17, 12:27 PM
There is several big diferences.
-High Dex>>> Armor because it applies to touch attacks and dex boosts reflex saves. Also Dex doesn't screw your skills or slows you down.
-On top of that Dex boosts iniative that can decide battles. Str boosts carrying capacity wich can decide... Not that much really.
-High dex also makes you better at ranged combat and boosts several good skills (hide, move silently, escape artist). Str-based skills are weaker (what was the last time you saw someone use swim/jump/climb?) and besides that str only matters for grapple checks.
-Combat reflexes, a quite important feat for melee builds, is dex-based.

So two feats is actualy a cheap price to allow me to make a melee character solely focused on one stat while geting several free goodies on top (improved stealth, iniative, reflex saves, touch AC, ranged attacks).

Heck, I don't even need two feats. Rapier, make sure you have Str 13 to pick power attack, wield it with two hands to get 1,5 Dex bonus to damage and go to town. You're superior to any str-based melee build exept the most extreme uber chargers, and even then you're still just one feat away from being superior to them too.

Feats are more valuable than gold, but being able to focus in one single stat is more valuable than feats.

However, two feats is actually a lot. It would be somewhat difficult to make a proper ubercharger build and especially not a TWF build as someone else suggested.

EDIT: And I didn't notice this thread already had three pages :smallsigh:

Lix Lorn
2010-08-17, 01:19 PM
I once posted in a five page recruitment thread without seeing it was more than one. XD