PDA

View Full Version : (3.5) True Haste, by request (Spell)



DracoDei
2010-08-15, 12:45 PM
I have posted this a few different places, and Temotei requested I give it its own thread. I was actually thinking the same thing, so here it is.


True Haste
Target: One Creature

As per Haste(Including which level it is for which classes) except that no bonus to base movement rate is given, but if the creature forgoes the extra attack granted, or does not attack in a given round it gains an additional move action. If a creature is benefiting from both Haste and True Haste (or spells or effects with similar results), the effects do not stack. It must decide at the time of casting, and again at the beginning of its turn which to benefit from until the start of its next turn.




Discussion/Background:
Basically when I was working on updating my Wing Dragons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3788332&postcount=9) from 3.0 (or was it 2nd?) to 3.5, I thought that the 3.5 version of Haste was a bit weaksauce for the physical embodiment of Flight, but I was informed that the 3.0 version overpowered casters. So I made this as a patch (it was just an SLA after all...). Later, I edited it into the format you see here, and posted it to some threads about narrowing the Fighter vs Full-caster gap. It is much more useful for a fighter, and gives the advantage in a multi-round one-on-one slug-fest (before feats etc, are taken into account) more firmly to the person who wins initiative/is more aggressive (IE they lead with an Full-Attack, rather than leading with a Standard, and then the more stationary combatant getting a full-attack on them). Obviously it also helps rogues, since they can Tumble into a flanking position and then get off a full salvo of sneak-attacks before their d6 HD selves are subject to possible return attacks. It does make full-attacking monsters (including/especially dragons*) significantly more powerful but I think we can live with that.

*It is probably one of a Wing Dragon's more devastating abilities, since they get Sneak Attack dice equal to half their age category, and whose breathweapon boils down to "No Save, No SR, just Blinded for as long as you stay anywhere near me", so they don't need a flanker.

Temotei
2010-08-15, 01:53 PM
Sweet. :smallcool:

Make sure to link to this thread in your extended signature.

DracoDei
2010-08-15, 05:06 PM
Oh, yeah... thanks of the reminder. Probably going to throw it into the compendium in at least one place too...

EDIT: Ok, did that... (Yes, I have a log-in for that account), but only for the Bard and Sor/Wiz lists... don't know enough about splatbooks to know who else gets Haste, but anyone who gets Haste should probably get True Haste, unless it is some sort of PrC based on buffing up masses of troops.

Jane_Smith
2010-08-15, 06:10 PM
Would it be to overpowered to just make haste -only- give a buffed creature +1 standard or movement (but not both) action each round, before or after their normal actions for their turn? I have always found the haste spell completely useless for anything other then martial types. Considering you litterly -speed- time for the target of the spell, they should be able to do more then just swing a sword in a seconds time - like drink a potion, or cast a basic spell...

This currently looks like a massive nerf to an already underpowered spell.

FlamingKobold
2010-08-15, 06:43 PM
This currently looks like a massive nerf to an already underpowered spell.

Are you saying haste is underpowered? IMO, it's one of the best spells for its level out there, and especially if you just look at the PHB.

Jane_Smith
2010-08-15, 06:51 PM
For a spellcaster, its completely useless to use on yourself unless you got cast-on-the-run, etc. And touch range? What the hell? >> What crazy wizard or sorcerer is going to run into the reach-range of that big ass dragon to make the fighter get a extra attack? Unless you cast it before a fight you knows about to happen - but, truely, how often does that happen in a game? 1/5 fights?

DracoDei
2010-08-15, 06:55 PM
You aren't supposed to cast it on yourself... but it isn't completely useless to do so, since it still gives you +1 to AC and several other benefits.

Casting 2 spells a round for several rounds is MASSIVELY overpowered (give up a spell slot to get the equivalent of a +4 metamagic every round for the next few rounds and it STACKS with Quicken!?!), and is considered a major loophole in 3.0. This was fixed in 3.5, but they went overboard, and made the spell much less spectacular in game effect for melee types. This is explicitly supposed to be better for a martial type than for a spellcaster... and it is not a nerf for that martial guy compared to 3.5 Haste, it is a power-up from it. The ONLY disadvantages compared to 3.5 Haste are:
Not multi-target (but giving Pounce to the Fighter and/or Rogue is worth it)
Touch Range
Usually doesn't increase your landspeed as much if you are double-moving or running.


I could be easily be persuaded to increase the range if that is the consensus... other than that, it is just adding boiler-plate to make it work the way I have described.

Err.... MAYBE allow 1 target per 5 caster levels, if people are very persuasive... that way at level 10 you can tag both the Fighter AND the Rogue, and at level 20 you can buff most or all of the party (some more effectively than others).

EDIT: The spell you describe (that grants an extra Standard or Move action each round, including double-casting, in addition to other benefits) MIGHT be acceptable as a 9th level spell with a steep XP cost... MAYBE.

EDIT^2: Put in some more boiler-plate so it doesn't hyper-accelerate your land-speed if stacked with Haste. Still have one more bit of boiler-plate I am going to do to try to bring RAW and RAI closer together... as it is there might be some problems with some orders of actions in a turn.

Aran Banks
2010-08-15, 08:59 PM
Why not just make it Close Range, Full Action to cast, gives an extra standard action and that's it.

DracoDei
2010-08-15, 11:08 PM
Why not just make it Close Range, Full Action to cast, gives an extra standard action and that's it.
Close Range could be good.
Full Round action might work if I also made it multi-target.
That last bit is totally and utterly broken, as I just finished explaining.

EDIT: Maybe if you sharply limited what the standard action can be used for (Movement, standard attack, miscellaneous actions, but not casting, manifesting, initiating, etc, etc) but to say that right wouldn't be any simpler than how I am saying this I don't think... then again it might... what do people think? I like the idea of allowing miscellaneous actions like drinking a potion.

Cardea
2010-08-15, 11:44 PM
Hey DracoDei.

The effective Pounce ability from a spell is already present from this. (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=5065)

And just pondering... assume that a single attack is [2] seconds, a move action is [4] seconds and a full-attack action is [6] seconds, what this spell more or less does is grant you the ability to change what you do with an extra [4] seconds from Haste. Perhaps give it a wider range, though each one limited, of what you can do with that extra time slot, instead of either virtual Pounce, Spring Attack or Expeditious Retreat?

DracoDei
2010-08-15, 11:53 PM
Hey DracoDei.

The effective Pounce ability from a spell is already present from this. (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=5065)
Lion's Charge doesn't seem to be on the Sor/Wiz spell list so direct comparison is not possible. It might, however indicate that single-target is still a good thing since if I am reading right, Lion's Charge is a 1 round spell.

And just pondering... assume that a single attack is [2] seconds, a move action is [4] seconds and a full-attack action is [6] seconds, what this spell more or less does is grant you the ability to change what you do with an extra [4] seconds from Haste. Perhaps give it a wider range, though each one limited, of what you can do with that extra time slot, instead of either virtual Pounce, Spring Attack or Expeditious Retreat?
I think you are killing a cat-girl. While I approve of that:smallbiggrin:, I don't have the energy to join in at that level right now. But I do have the energy to do join in enough to say that (as I said in another thread) I think that any "mundane" action that you could do with a Standard action should be fine. Casting, Manifesting, Initiating, etc, etc are right out for a multi-round 3rd level spell.

To be slightly more specific (but by NO means exhaustive)... potion quaffing, door opening, crossbow loading, and weapon drawing all sound fine. Scroll reading, and Wand/Staff zapping aren't.

Aran Banks
2010-08-16, 01:31 AM
Well, I really don't think initiating a maneuver is a problem at all... there's a reason those guys are at-will (ish) powers. "You cannot use this standard action to cast a spell or manifest a power or use an ability that is not at-will." is all you really need. Soulmelds and vestiges don't matter, while shadow paths, manuevers, and utterances and fine. If somebody buffs the shadow caster... there might be a problem then.

DracoDei
2010-08-16, 02:28 AM
Well, I really don't think initiating a maneuver is a problem at all... there's a reason those guys are at-will (ish) powers.
Strikes may not be as powerful as spells, but getting two of them in in a round is still very very powerful.

"You cannot use this standard action to cast a spell or manifest a power or use an ability that is not at-will." is all you really need. Soulmelds and vestiges don't matter, while shadow paths, manuevers, and utterances and fine. If somebody buffs the shadow caster... there might be a problem then.
I don't think that the concept that "At will powers are weak, so it doesn't matter if you can do 2 of them in a round." really works.

Aran Banks
2010-08-16, 02:40 AM
The idea about at-will powers is that they're worth burning a standard action. The reason spells and powers need to be controlled is because they're worth more than a standard action, but it only takes a standard to cast them.

The reason ToB classes are balanced is because they have level-appropriate abilities. The use of a maneuver is a level-appropriate standard action, and should be embraced under True Haste. I can see why at-will powers might be a scary prospect, but I can't think of any truly abusable powers that a PC could use.

Popertop
2010-08-16, 08:47 AM
telekinesis

DracoDei
2010-08-16, 10:20 AM
Edited to change the range to Close by default. Might make it multitarget. Since I am balancing to the 3.5 Haste, I am still not going to make it work with initiating etc.

dsmiles
2010-08-16, 10:27 AM
I have posted this a few different places, and Temotei requested I give it its own thread. I was actually thinking the same thing, so here it is.


True Haste
Target: One Creature

As per Haste(Including which level it is for which classes) except that no bonus to base movement rate is given, but if the creature forgoes the extra attack granted, or does not attack in a given round it gains an additional move action (which may ONLY be used for movement). If a creature is benefiting from both Haste and True Haste (or spells or effects with similar results), the effects do not stack. It must decide at the time of casting, and again at the beginning of its turn which to benefit from until the start of its next turn.




Discussion/Background:
Basically when I was working on updating my Wing Dragons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3788332&postcount=9) from 3.0 (or was it 2nd?) to 3.5, I thought that the 3.5 was a bit weaksauce for the physical embodiment of Flight, but I was informed that the 3.0 version overpowered casters. So I made this as a patch (it was just an SLA after all...). Later, I edited it into the format you see here, and posted it to some threads about narrowing the Fighter vs Full-caster gap. It is much more useful for a fighter, and gives the advantage in a multi-round one-on-one slug-fest (before feats etc, are taken into account) more firmly to the person who wins initiative/is more aggressive (IE they lead with an Full-Attack, rather than leading with a Standard, and then the more stationary combatant getting a full-attack on them). Obviously it also helps rogues, since they can Tumble into a flanking position and then get off a full salvo of sneak-attacks before their d6 HD selves are subject to possible return attacks. It does make full-attacking monsters (including/especially dragons*) significantly more powerful but I think we can live with that.

*It is probably one of a Wing Dragon's more devastating abilities, since they get Sneak Attack dice equal to half their age category, and whose breathweapon boils down to "No Save, No SR, just Blinded for as long as you stay anywhere near me", so they don't need a flanker.

Nice, but I still like where the old haste spell aged you. I like my players to suffer the consequences of their actions, thus I HAD implemented the drawbacks of as many original spells as I could find (before switching to 4e, and even then, my homebrewed classes have drawbacks that go with their powers).

Starbuck_II
2010-08-16, 10:32 AM
So the Psionic power Hustle, but 1 rd/lv instead of just 1 rd.

DracoDei
2010-08-16, 10:56 AM
Nice, but I still like where the old haste spell aged you. I like my players to suffer the consequences of their actions, thus I HAD implemented the drawbacks of as many original spells as I could find (before switching to 4e, and even then, my homebrewed classes have drawbacks that go with their powers).
Yeah, 2nd edition is just a whole different ball of wax.

DracoDei
2010-08-18, 12:38 AM
So the Psionic power Hustle, but 1 rd/lv instead of just 1 rd.

No, because you can also use it for an extra attack at your full BAB, and it grants a host of miscellaneous benefits.