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View Full Version : Catching a warforged off guard...4E



NoAdvantageBP
2010-08-16, 06:14 PM
I was, as DM, going to make my party get stuff stolen from them while they were sleeping, but then I told them they could have a warforged character, not thinking about the fact that they don't sleep and are always aware of their surroundings. My ultimate goal is to see how my party can do without all the goodies I've let them acquire. I was them to rely on themselves.

Any ideas how I can get around this Warforged or another way to do this?

Randel
2010-08-16, 06:26 PM
Well, I suppose you could have some kind of 'anti-magic' field that keeps their magic items from working. I don't think 4th edition has rules for it but you could rule-0 it so that they physically have their stuff but they just can't use them.

Alternately, the people who come in to steal the players stuff could have a high stealth and use something to disable the warforged before they attack. If the warforged is the only thing keeping watch then figure out a way to disable him before he can alert the others and then have the stuff stolen. Maybe a silence field could be tossed in as well so that he can't alert the others easily (if the camp is under silence then the warforged couldn't ring a bell to wake the others and thus each round he would have to either use his actions to attack the enemy or wake the others).

Weasel of Doom
2010-08-16, 06:33 PM
I don't think it's a good idea to arbitrarily say their loot was stolen. I'd make it into an encounter which they have a chance of winning and also have a reason for someone to steal their stuff as opposed to just kill them in thier sleep.

Having a bunch of rogues with silent spells attack means that if they don't wake up at least the 'forged has a cool story to tell after and they have someone to get revenge on.

Alternatively make it something big like all magic items in a huge radius suddenly explode or stop working, might be interesting.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-16, 06:52 PM
Any ideas how I can get around this Warforged or another way to do this?

Easy. Cast Sleep on him.

Marnath
2010-08-16, 06:54 PM
Easy. Cast Sleep on him.

Are they not immune to that anymore in 4e?

Kurald Galain
2010-08-16, 07:03 PM
Are they not immune to that anymore in 4e?
No. Aside from a few points of elemental resistance, immunities to anything are extremely rare in 4E. Except for poison - nearly all undead are immune to that. I don't think player characters can get any immunities before epic level.

Sir_Elderberry
2010-08-16, 07:07 PM
In 4e Tomb of Horrors, possibly others, characters get teleported without their gear by certain traps. This seems like something the party could easily be duped into--taking a teleporter to go fight someone who asks "What, you though I'd let my enemies get to me and then fight fair?" Their loot can even be easily stored in a treasure room nearby, since he wants their gear for himself.

cupkeyk
2010-08-16, 07:13 PM
What level are they?

One of the easier ways of temporarily removing a party's gear is to have them take them off. A nice dinner party where they must wear fine clothing and bring no weapons/implements. A swim that may require them removing armor, maybe? A magnetized floor where they have to remove metallic gear to get an object at the far end of the room.

holywhippet
2010-08-16, 07:17 PM
I wasn't entirely sure about warforged and "sleep". My impression was that they go into shutdown mode which means they don't/can't move around but are aware of their surroundings. I wasn't sure if they could come back to active mode at will or if they had to complete their "sleep" cycle. If not, they might see hooded figures stealing from the party but not be able to respond.

Also, as someone else said, awareness is the same as just using standard spot checks. So if someone has stealth better than the warforged's spot checks they can get around it.

Tiki Snakes
2010-08-16, 07:50 PM
So, you can pretty much guarentee the Warforged will be on watch at the time?

Well, what you need sir, is a robotically-minded mind controller. :smallwink:

Take over it's mind from hiding and at range, (A nice 1/day level power type thing, perhaps, with really solid numbers). The Warforged picks up the parties equipment, hands it over and goes and buries his head in the sand.

Party wakes up; The warforged is upside down in the dunny and all their clothes are gone.

tcrudisi
2010-08-16, 07:57 PM
I was, as DM, going to make my party get stuff stolen from them while they were sleeping, but then I told them they could have a warforged character, not thinking about the fact that they don't sleep and are always aware of their surroundings. My ultimate goal is to see how my party can do without all the goodies I've let them acquire. I was them to rely on themselves.

Any ideas how I can get around this Warforged or another way to do this?

Yep, change the campaign. Don't steal their stuff, as that's really annoying to suffer through as a player. Instead, come up with a reason for their magic items to stop working temporarily.

Perhaps something happens in the world and magic items cease functioning. The characters will either have to complete their current quest without magic items or leave it behind a short time to figure out why magic items have stopped working and try to fix it.

This allows you a reason for them to be without magic items while preparing encounters that won't over-run them since they are without items, and allows them to fix the problem themselves.

To me, this is a lot more interesting than "your stuff was stolen - lol omg rofl haxxors".

Urpriest
2010-08-16, 09:49 PM
Do be aware that 4e isn't built for characters without magic items except at very low level. Monster defenses are set at a baseline that assumes magic weapons, and deviating from that baseline doesn't make fights more challenging so much as it makes them largely pointless and poorly designed.

Guy
2010-08-16, 09:55 PM
My ultimate goal is to see how my party can do without all the goodies I've let them acquire. I was them to rely on themselves.
Any ideas how I can get around this Warforged or another way to do this?

How about you just let them have their things, not be a lying DM who gives out magic items only to turn around and figure out a way to automatically steal everything from the party just to say "hah, you were relying on magic items". That's not how the system works.

NoAdvantageBP
2010-08-16, 10:38 PM
Thank you all for your help.

And just to be clear, I didn't mean to come off with the intention of robbing them of everything for good. I meant to incorporate them getting robbed into the game with the party eventually getting their stuff back as part of the mission. I want them to not be as reliant on the magical items as they are right now, and start coming up with other means of victory. So actually, it does worry me a little that this system is based around the having magical items. Some people may consider what I am going to do to be a douche bag thing to do. I consider it a challenge for my players.

Urpriest
2010-08-16, 10:42 PM
Most magic items don't have an effect on skills. If they don't actually get into combat while sans items I could see it being more reasonable. Force them to roleplay out of a situation before getting their stuff back, rather than fighting their way out.

tcrudisi
2010-08-16, 11:19 PM
So actually, it does worry me a little that this system is based around the having magical items.

Welcome to D&D. Kill monsters, get their magical items, use said magic items to kill more monsters to get their magic items... and so on and so on (with gaining experience thrown in).


Most magic items don't have an effect on skills. If they don't actually get into combat while sans items I could see it being more reasonable. Force them to roleplay out of a situation before getting their stuff back, rather than fighting their way out.

I agree with this if you are going to have their stuff stolen. But really, speaking as my experiences as a player, having my stuff stolen is just really, really annoying. I'd rather something be occurring that is causing my magic items to not work and I have to fix it. At least then it doesn't feel like the DM is just yanking back everything I've worked hard to get and it feels more like the next challenge that my character must overcome in his adventuring life.

Also, there are inherent bonuses which can make up for a lack of magic items. There are ways to take away magic items and incorporate inherent bonuses until they get those items back.

Guy
2010-08-16, 11:37 PM
Thank you all for your help.

And just to be clear, I didn't mean to come off with the intention of robbing them of everything for good. I meant to incorporate them getting robbed into the game with the party eventually getting their stuff back as part of the mission. I want them to not be as reliant on the magical items as they are right now, and start coming up with other means of victory. So actually, it does worry me a little that this system is based around the having magical items. Some people may consider what I am going to do to be a douche bag thing to do. I consider it a challenge for my players.

Yeah, serves them right for relying on those passive + to armor and hit bonuses they are assumed to have by the game in order to keep the system math working fluidly. How dare they.

MrSinister
2010-08-16, 11:44 PM
What you could do is just use rogues or assassins and stealth the party's stuff away. Just because the warforged is aware of his surroundings doesn't mean a rogue can't sneak behind him and gank the party. A shadar-kai assassin could do this even easier, using that assassin at-will teleport to move all over the place.

And I think that would be a cool encounter, having the party lose their stuff and have to use their wits to get it back. What I would do in the initial robbing is try to make it some kind of skill challenge, with a total success meaning the party gets to keep some of their stuff.

Perhaps the least the thieves can get away with is some kind of plot-powered McGuffin?

Mando Knight
2010-08-17, 12:49 AM
So actually, it does worry me a little that this system is based around the having magical items.

Not just magical items. Equipment in general is extremely important to multiple classes. None of the Defenders can properly do their job without their armor, which for the Swordmage includes his blade (though the Swordmage's armor is mostly his brain and blade, so he can almost get away with it). Other than the Monk, Beast-spec Druid, and the Brawler Fighter, melee characters in general can't function without their weapons, and neither can ranged-weapon characters such as crossbow Rogues, archer Rangers, and Seekers.

If you're going to have "lolsteal while u sleep" encounters, then the party will start carrying at least one Eladrin or Warforged in the team at all times... neither one takes a penalty to Perception while taking an extended rest. Players don't like to be stolen from. Along with arbitrary character death, it may be the leading cause of tabletop ragequit.

Reluctance
2010-08-17, 12:59 AM
What items are they overly reliant on? Between daily use limitations (both per-item and per-character) and the limited amount of gimmicky auto-win items, I'm not seeing how they do much more than normal items beyond "hit as often as you're expected to".

Knaight
2010-08-17, 01:15 AM
Yeah, serves them right for relying on those passive + to armor and hit bonuses they are assumed to have by the game in order to keep the system math working fluidly. How dare they.

Please, its not as if working around that is at all difficult. Besides, in some genres rapid item swap out is pretty much mandatory, most notably Sword and Sorcery. As a player, that is among my favorite fantasy genres, so clearly there is at least one person who considers getting stuff stolen fun in certain circumstances.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-17, 03:31 AM
A swim that may require them removing armor, maybe?
Wearing armor gives you only a -1 to swimming checks, though.


So, you can pretty much guarentee the Warforged will be on watch at the time?
Sure, or the revenant, or the elf; there are plenty of races in 4E that don't need to sleep.


So actually, it does worry me a little that this system is based around the having magical items.
It's not that hard to work around. A high heroic party will have about +3 to hit and +2 to defense from magical items, so if their items get stolen, have them encounter monsters that have 3 less in defenses and -2 to their to-hit rolls. Problem solved.

This assumes the PCs can make an improvised weapon (easy enough) and that their armor doesn't get stolen (because frankly, stealing armor is a bit silly anyway, and characters can sleep in armor anyway).

Drakefall
2010-08-17, 03:59 AM
Also, there are inherent bonuses which can make up for a lack of magic items. There are ways to take away magic items and incorporate inherent bonuses until they get those items back.
+ 1 to this.

Perhaps you can also take it up with your players that you'd like a campaign where magic items are rare and awesome, retcon most of the magic items away and use inherent bonuses. They might be up for it.

Inherent bonuses are in the PHB 2 by the way... I think.

hamishspence
2010-08-17, 04:11 AM
Just as long as the person responsible doesn't hold a knife to the warforged's neck and say "What's this? A warforged caught off his guard?"

Sinfonian
2010-08-17, 05:16 AM
If you wanted to continue with the original plan, you could take an old DM's copout, you could simply have them non-lethally captured and stripped of their items. Any number of variations for this exist: mistaken identity, actual crimes of the party for which they're being brought to justice, slavers, etc.

In any of these cases, it'd be fairly easy to make them spend a brief time without their items and them have them get them back, either through having them given back by their captors (though they'd need a good reason not to kill said captors out of revenge, or that could be a plot hook) or have them just have to fight their way out of captivity and back to their swag.

That said, you'd probably want to give them access to some kind of equipment, or at least enough to function at the bare-minimum level.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-08-17, 09:48 AM
Thank you all for your help.

And just to be clear, I didn't mean to come off with the intention of robbing them of everything for good. I meant to incorporate them getting robbed into the game with the party eventually getting their stuff back as part of the mission. I want them to not be as reliant on the magical items as they are right now, and start coming up with other means of victory. So actually, it does worry me a little that this system is based around the having magical items. Some people may consider what I am going to do to be a douche bag thing to do. I consider it a challenge for my players.
...in what sense are they relying on their magic? Like Kurald said, 4E doesn't really have a lot of "utility magic" lying around to replace problem-solving.

What exactly are you trying to address? Examples would be nice.

Anyhow: the easiest way to deprive them of their equipment is either voluntarially (the party route) or the Test of Bravery - some group insists that the party overcome an obstacle course with only what they can find. They have to run through naked or something.

DMing your way into a "steal everything LOL" situtation is just going to tick off your players - trust me.

icefractal
2010-08-17, 01:40 PM
I'm here to recommend that you do not go the "you went to a party, so your stuff was taken" or the "guards capture you and take your stuff" routes.

Most players hate losing their stuff. How much they hate it depends on several factors, like whether the resulting difficulties were entertaining, and whether they get it back in a reasonable amount of time. But as a rule, they dislike it.

And as with other things they dislike, doing it even once can make them paranoid about it. Now if you steal it while they're sleeping, that will make them paranoid about sleeping. They might post more watches, always share a room at the inn, set up alarm spells, or other precautions. But those shouldn't be too much of a hassle for your game - unless you were planning to do this frequently, which I really would recommend against.

But if you use "going to a party in regular clothes" or "cooperating with the city authorities" as a way of yoinking their gear, then they will become paranoid about those things. And then you'll see people going to parties in their armor (or just not going), making elaborate plans to sneak into every city without going through the gate, and refusing to surrender to anyone under any circumstances. Those are pretty disruptive to any campaign with social/intrigue aspirations, and it's entirely possible that the behaviors will carry over to other campaigns, even those with other DMs.

So basically, if you make any activity you don't want to discourage the reason for screwing with the PCs, then you're poisoning the well for not just yourself, but future DMs as well. Don't do it.

mobdrazhar
2010-08-17, 05:03 PM
if you really want to get rid of some of thier items just use the old, mean trick of rust beetles

NoAdvantageBP
2010-08-17, 05:43 PM
...in what sense are they relying on their magic?

In the sense that my players don't think they natural powers are good enough, and they want more and more magical items to enhance them.

P.S. I can't figure out how to do the multiple quotes some do. Can someone help with that?

Sinfonian: I have actually had one person in the campaign captured and his stuff taken, but no one wanted to go back and get it. Why, you ask? Probably cause it was an NPC and no one cared.

Kurald Galain: I like your idea of adjusting the monsters. I was just not sure how to go about it. Also, I wouldn't have EVERYTHING stolen from them. E.G. Armor, main weapon. Just all the frills. E.G. A collar that adds to Dex, gloves that add to climbing, boots that add to speed.

Guy: I accept any criticism, but your kind is just obnoxious. You really sound like your name should be 'Little boy'. Could you please be more constructive?

Urpriest
2010-08-17, 05:49 PM
Kurald Galain: I like your idea of adjusting the monsters. I was just not sure how to go about it. Also, I wouldn't have EVERYTHING stolen from them. E.G. Armor, main weapon. Just all the frills. E.G. A collar that adds to Dex, gloves that add to climbing, boots that add to speed.


There is no such thing as any item that adds to any ability score in 4e, so your collar that adds to Dex should not exist. It really messes with the system when people get ability scores outside of their assumed progression.

Also, the mere fact that non-weapon non-armor non-neck-slot magic items are relevant to your characters speaks well for their ingenuity (besides a few basic ones like Iron Armbands of Power and Rushing Cleats). Care to describe a scenario in which they used these items effectively? I just want to see what you're dealing with here.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-08-17, 05:51 PM
In the sense that my players don't think they natural powers are good enough, and they want more and more magical items to enhance them.

P.S. I can't figure out how to do the multiple quotes some do. Can someone help with that?
Second thing first: I find it easiest to tab open replies from each guy I want to quote and then cut-and-paste them into a single post. Or you can just do what you did, if the original quotation isn't that important.

First thing last: this is exactly the sort of time you'll want to go with the Test of Bravery. If you just steal their stuff they'll mope because they don't think they stand a chance without their l33t loot. But if you explicitly set up a situation where they're not expected (IC) to use gear, they'll be much more open to it.

Beelzebub1111
2010-08-17, 10:15 PM
Two words, Etherial Filchers. They, by design and function, steal things and get away.

tcrudisi
2010-08-17, 10:17 PM
Second thing first: I find it easiest to tab open replies from each guy I want to quote and then cut-and-paste them into a single post. Or you can just do what you did, if the original quotation isn't that important.

If you are already signed in, there will be both the "Quote" box and a box that has "+ in it. If you want to quote 4 people, you can click the "+ on the first 3 and then click "Quote" on the 4th one. All of the quotes will appear in your new message.

Reluctance
2010-08-18, 04:53 AM
In the sense that my players don't think they natural powers are good enough, and they want more and more magical items to enhance them.

...

I like your idea of adjusting the monsters. I was just not sure how to go about it. Also, I wouldn't have EVERYTHING stolen from them. E.G. Armor, main weapon. Just all the frills. E.G. A collar that adds to Dex, gloves that add to climbing, boots that add to speed.

This is kinda why 4e items are the way they are. Handing out 3e style items will handily break the core assumptions 4e is based on. Unfortunately, your players don't sound like the sorts to give their swag back if you come in and admit you goofed.

If you want to remove their items, you get at most one chance to do it without looking very petty, so I suggest tying it into the plot rather than having random thieves in the night. Once you do that - and this is important - re-read the 4e item use guidelines and make sure you understand them. Otherwise, you'll just make the same mistakes again.

At heart, though, it sounds like your players want to be spoiled for options in the same way that was simultaneously 3.5's greatest strength and greatest weakness. Which makes me ask why you're playing 4e. If it's because you personally prefer the system and how much easier it makes running the game, I've found that nothing shuts a player up faster than being offered the DM's seat so they can run the game the way they want. If it's for some other reason, explain both your preferences and those of your players. There are better compromises than the passive aggressive push/pull that this sounds like.

NoAdvantageBP
2010-08-18, 07:06 AM
There is no such thing as any item that adds to any ability score in 4e, so your collar that adds to Dex should not exist. It really messes with the system when people get ability scores outside of their assumed progression.

Also, the mere fact that non-weapon non-armor non-neck-slot magic items are relevant to your characters speaks well for their ingenuity (besides a few basic ones like Iron Armbands of Power and Rushing Cleats). Care to describe a scenario in which they used these items effectively? I just want to see what you're dealing with here.

Sure. Here's the thing though. Like many of you out there, I'm sure, my players are on this site too, and I'm trying not to be too specific so, if they read this thread, they won't see any kind of plan I'm up to. Let's be general though. One of my characters has an orb of nimble thoughts. It adds to his initiative because he likes to go first. His character is a controller. He likes to take advantage of the going first to 'arrange' the enemies. This is a great plan and all, don't get me wrong. I just want to see how he would do if he didn't go first all the time. Now, you could say I could just put him up against something with a high initiative, but keep in mind that this is only one example. More specifically, as I've stated before, I just want to see how my players would do if they didn't have the magical items that give them all their +'s.

P.S. I just made up the collar thing. I was trying not to give specific examples. I do, though, make a lot of homebrew items. If you have any suggestions on what I should or should not do with them, you may leave that here too.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-18, 07:11 AM
A collar that adds to Dex
While such an item does not exist as printed, it is not inherently problematic to create one. It's just unorthodox.

Basically, the item would add +1 to AC, reflex, initiative, a handful of skills, and all your attacks for certain classes. A regular magical amulet between level 11 and 15 would add +3 to reflex, fort, and will. Since attack bonuses are intended to be fairly rare in 4E even when they're completely not a big deal, I would say that such a collar is fair game as a level-15 item. You trade a defense bonus for a smaller attack bonus, just like how you could trade a defensive feat for an attack feat.

Note how items exist in epic tier that give +2 to all attacks for certain classes, so giving +1 at paragon tier does not strike me as inappropriate.


One of my characters has an orb of nimble thoughts. It adds to his initiative because he likes to go first.
Interestingly, the Orb of Nimble Thoughts as printed violates several design principles of 4E and is generally considered cheesy and errata-bait. It will not break your game per se, but permanently adding +6 to +8 to initiative for the meager cost of 680 gold pieces is precisely the kind of thing that previous errata have been removing.

Urpriest
2010-08-18, 02:28 PM
For the Orb itself, it's probably better to find some houserule that requires the wizard to actually use it for attacks (I'm assuming it's a weaker version, rather than his main implement. If the latter, you can't very well expect the character to hit anything when it's gone). I'm not sure how such a houserule would work, however. Has the character at least invested in free action drawing/stowing?

NoAdvantageBP
2010-08-18, 06:28 PM
Not to be offensive, of course, but I would like to get off of specific examples, and get back toward the heart of the post. I do like the idea of incorporating it into the game. Mainly, the idea of a place where magical items do not work has gotten my attention. I am thinking about incorporating a powerful wizard into the plot line holding up a giant antimagic aura around a main part of the main plot. If they want to go into this area sans magical weapons, well, then that is what I said I wanted to see if they could do. If they don't, then they will have to kill the wizard holding the aura up. He, of course, will be somewhere in the aura. So, either way, they are going to have to do at least part of the mission without the help of their magic items. Comments, questions, concerns?

Dr Gunsforhands
2010-08-20, 03:23 AM
The best way to do this is mess with the players mentally. You can do this a multitude of ways:

Chances are this party has gotten used to the fact that their Warforged is the only person that needs to be awake. The Warforged sits there every night all alone. Go into his backstory. Is there anything that would make him want to wander off alone, any secrets that the party must not know about him, any fear the Warforged has that might cause him to hesitate? He will be the only one awake to react if he sees something at night related to things he doesn't want the party involved in. It's the best way to make that Warforged distracted or wander off. That's the quick way.

If you want to mess with the Warforged specifically about watching at night, you start off small. Have the Warforged see something at night, whether it's an illusion or whatever, something so weird it is unbeleiveable. He'll probably wake the rest of the party, at which time the Warforged and the party doesn't see it. The party will probably be unhappy, but write it off as the night playing tricks on him. You can decide what this actually is, but keep this up, once a night or only a little more have the Warforged see something bizarre. Whether he keeps waking the party or goes into denial that what he is seeing isn't really happening, eventually he will want another party member to stay up with him on watch. Have nothing happen that night. Have nothing happen on any night that another party member stays up with him. Let him start to assume he is not seeing anything, maybe he was wrong. The second he starts taking shifts alone again, start up the weird things again. Make them weirder than last time.

The next step is to come up with an NPC that is racist against Warforged. Have that person tell the party that he doesn't trust Warforged because they snap. They don't so much go mad as become unhinged. You start to write off the signs at first, a little odd behavior you excuse because you accept the bucket heads as equals, as living beings despite the fact that they are cold calculating intelligent weapons. But then they get Warforged Madness. Heard of a dozen other cases. They strike when you're most vulnerable, shaking your hand in one moment then crushing a sleeping infant in the next.

While you let those thoughts of a Warforged standing over their peaceful sleeping bodies stew in your PC's heads, that's when you introduce the Coincidence. There's a running theme to these illusions, maybe a rose, or a name, or a place. Have the Warforged notice a person in a crowd that possesses something tied to that running theme. Whether the Warforged jumps on the person and becomes violent, or merely gets fixated on questioning this person in the off chance he can connect the dots, this person has absolutely no connection whatsoever to what is going on. Let this play out how you wish.

Then, at some point as a part of an encounter, have the party fight an insane Warforged. Have it occasionally try to kill things that aren't there or it's own allies. By this point your party should be second guessing the trust they put in the Warforged and your Warforged is going to be reluctant to stand watch at night.

Plan B is Ankhegs. Monsters that burrow can will always get the jump on your PC's. Dozens and dozens of Ankhegs.

mobdrazhar
2010-08-20, 07:18 AM
i still stick to my statement that rust monsters will scare the **** out of the warforged ;)

that's how i got to the one in my game

Kurald Galain
2010-08-20, 07:29 AM
i still stick to my statement that rust monsters will scare the **** out of the warforged ;)

...by turning his equipment into exactly as much residuum as is required to create that piece of equipment?

Telok
2010-08-20, 10:56 AM
Simplicity.

Give orbs of Fickle Fate and Impenetrable Escape to a pair of Oni Night Haunters. This will be a 1400 xp encounter with two treasure parcels, perfect for an 8th level party. If that is too easy or hard of an encounter then simply re-level the two creatures to an appropriate level.

Or just have a rogue walk in and throw some inhaled sleeping poison on him. Remember, in 4e warforged are not immune to inhaled gas attacks, poison, or anything that causes unconsciousness from any source.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-20, 11:00 AM
Advice abusing the poor Warforged player

Great plan, in theory...but if this was done to me, as the player, without warning or explanation, I'd start feeling very persecuted. I'm the only one who sees strange things? I'm the only one who notices these coincidences? I'm the only one who's accused of being guaranteed to go crazy? Clearly, the DM is out to get me for some reason.:smallannoyed:

Getting the Warforged player's assent to use his PC as the means by which you Mind Screw the rest of the party, on the other hand, is a delightful plan.