[3.5] Ur-priest trade-in levels

[GoatBoy]

While working on an Ur-priest build, it occurred to me that the original, "intentioned" method for entering the class seems a little foolish at this point. The example build given in Complete Divine is a Cleric 4/Rogue 1, which is probably the best way to enter the class via core-only. But now that we have Binders, Dragonfire Adepts, Savage Bards, and any number of other methods of entering the class, the Cleric probably feels a little silly. They basically lose 4+ levels of spellcasting, and possibly their domain's granted powers, depending on how you interpret the rules.

No one will suggest that Clerics need help as far as becoming more powerful in general, but I thought that I might come up with a rule for people who specifically want to play an Ur-priest as a formerly devoted divine caster who "falls from grace," so to speak.

Fallen Clerics

Ur-priests who have levels in the cleric class (that is to say, are now ex-clerics) gain extra abilities the more levels of cleric they have.

A fallen cleric who becomes an ur-priest gains all of the following abilities that apply, according to the number of cleric levels the character has.

1-2: Energy channelling. A number of times per day equal to 1 + his Wisdom bonus (if any), the ur-priest may spontaneously convert a prepared ur-priest spell into a cure or inflict spell of the same level, as the cleric ability. The ur-priest's deceitful method of casting allows him to choose which type of spell the expended slot is converted into, unlike a cleric.

3-4: Domain reversal. The ur-priest gains access to the granted powers of two domains which are thematically opposed to his cleric domains (eg. good becomes evil, fire becomes water, creation becomes destruction). A domain which has no obvious opposition is left to the discretion of the DM. Any spells in the ur-priest's new domains are also added to his ur-priest class spell list, though he does not gain more spells per day through this ability.

5+: For each level of cleric he has beyond 4th, the ur-priest may use his Siphon Spell Power ability one additional time per day.

[Morph Bark]

So you think Ur-Priests need an even bigger power boosts?

Note: Blighters don't get this either for a reason (though admittably they are still weaker than a druid).

[ex cathedra]

I don't really have a problem with this, but I'm not convinced that that is a good thing.

Ur-Priests are already pretty high on the crazy scale, but none of the class features you give them have... well, a lot of relevance at all. The best feature is by far the domain access, but to be honest most of the really good domains don't have any diametrically opposed force. The spontaneous conversion is honestly an absolutely irrelevant ability, more often than not, so one can't really complain about giving the cleric back one of their thematic abilities. Siphon Spell power, similarly, is an ability that rarely sees use on an Ur-Priest, in my experience, and the presented trade-in is honestly quite the trap, since it's trying to reward the player for more class ability-less, spellcasting-less cleric levels, which could potentially trick less savvy players (or, anyone with a basic grasp of "spellcasting = good").

[GoatBoy]

WHAT ZOMG U GUYS TIHS IS TEH BEST IDEA EVAR Y CNAT U SEE THAT

*cough*

I mean, thank you for the feedback.

Now I have read that Ur-priests are a tier +2 PrC, but I am having a little trouble understanding why. Yes, the simple fact that you get level 9 spells at character level 14 is pretty godly, but you're only ahead of the cleric's game from Ur-priest levels 6 to 10. And you're actually behind the standard progression before that.

I guess I was approaching the class from the angle of taking it and staying in it. I am guessing now that its true power comes from taking one level and then going into something else with divine casting progression?

I assumed that Siphon Spell Power was actually a big part of the class's power (wouldn't most players trade in a ton of almost useless low-level spell slots for another gate spell?). I figured the capstone ability should be something truly grand, since you're essentially taking a useless level of cleric. Can anyone suggest something better, then?

I focused on clerics specifically because they lose everything when they take the class, whereas any non-divine class can keep their features.

tl;dr: I want to make taking and staying in Ur-priest worthwhile for clerics.

[DragoonWraith]

Actually, no - the class features of the Ur-Priest are also quite good, honestly. Yes, the truly omgwtf part of the Ur-Priest is early 9's, but even if it was just another 10/10 spellcasting PrC, the class features are pretty solid.

It's really just that Cleric is an awful entry because Clerics, and only Clerics, lose class features for entering. So, replacing those features might be worthwhile and is a pretty decent idea, I'm with you there. You just need to be careful about it, because, well, Ur-Priests are a little ridiculous.

Unfortunately, I can't offer specific critique at this moment because I don't feel like digging for Complete Divine and comparing what's lost to what you're offering here.

[Morph Bark]

I am guessing now that its true power comes from taking one level and then going into something else with divine casting progression?

Moreso that anyone with a fair investment in Druid/Cleric/Shugenja/Favoured Soul/Archivist/(Spirit) Shaman levels won't take Ur-Priest and instead will enter the class via arcane classes. It is such builds that make Mystic Theurge actually worthwhile on the power level.

[Xzoltar]

I really like the idea of wat your doing here. This in fact Nerf the Ur-Priest, as beeing a Cleric prior to becoming a Ur-Priest instead of going other cheesy route is nerfing the class not giving it a power boost.

The abilities you trade are not really good, but I really like the idea of a Fallen Cleric becoming a Ur-Priest, so maybe I lsot pwoer going this route but now a ex-cleric/Ur-Priest is a good roleplaying character I could use in a game, good work.

[ErrantX]

I really like the idea of wat your doing here. This in fact Nerf the Ur-Priest, as beeing a Cleric prior to becoming a Ur-Priest instead of going other cheesy route is nerfing the class not giving it a power boost.

The abilities you trade are not really good, but I really like the idea of a Fallen Cleric becoming a Ur-Priest, so maybe I lsot pwoer going this route but now a ex-cleric/Ur-Priest is a good roleplaying character I could use in a game, good work.

Agreed! I like this project and the abilities you're giving to former clerics. Good show.

-X