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BobVosh
2010-08-18, 11:59 PM
After looking through a dead RPG thread here, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164728) I saw a lot of votes for cyberpunk 2020. I have the box for Cyberpunk 2013 (gift to my brother that he left behind) and I never really looked at it. Is it as good, close, or better than 203X which seems to have a lot of hate?

I was considering running Shadowrun (4ed, 3ed fluff mostly), but I could get behind another such game. So is this game good, mechanically and fluffwise. I can handle bad mechanics if the fluff is good.

Aroka
2010-08-19, 03:35 AM
Never played it or gotten a chance to read it that closely, but I do recall that the netrunning system looked much more sensible than the "virtual dungeon" of 2020, with the nodes and all. And it cannot be as bad as 203X. It's just not possible.

Satyr
2010-08-19, 04:08 AM
It's a bit ... outdated for a future game. But a an alternative future game, it works. The rules are okay (and I guess they were the sources which was then copied by D&D for third edition; you know the attribute+skill+dice system).

What's so bad about Cyberpunk 203X? Just the usual post-cyberpunk stuff (or "cyberpunk, without the bits that are fun or interesting" as I would call it) or has it deeper problems than that?

Aroka
2010-08-19, 04:59 AM
Grah, you made me get out the book! I'm not going to actually read through it all over again, just use it for reference on a few points (so there may be inaccuracies).

Cyberpunk 203X trashes the entire setting and fails to provide a new one. I had no freaking clue about the setting after reading the entire book. I know that people live in ideologically defined "altcults" (enclaves/phyles) that transcend physical space (a bit like in Stephenson's Snow Crash, but a lot more like in his Diamond Age). There are only about half a dozen (or is it 8?) of these phyles. I think there's no government? But somehow there's infrastructure and enough rule of law for corporations to function. There's no 'net, just local BBSes. There's badly thought-out nanotech that's just used to make ICE programs form a body so you can shoot them, for a few cyberware items, and weapons. (Forget even cribbing Diamond Age for what nanotech could do.)

The rules do absolutely nothing new. They feel a bit more general Fuzion (like Bubblegum Crisis) than just CP2020, but differences are minimal - so minimal, in fact, that the system has all the same problems as CP2020 (stacked armor makes you invulnerable, no rules for actually throwing a grenade, etc.). None were identified and fixed.

Instead of trying to introduce simple or functional netrunning (like SR4's wireless), it was basically cut out. There's no net, just BBSes that are essentially altcult-specific forum-wiki combos with only mostly public information. If, for some reason (can't think of one!) you need to break into one, you apparently have to do it at a station linked to the BBS, because they're physically connected LANs I guess with no outside access? And when you try it, an ICE program will manifest out of nanobots so you can beat its ass.

The game has even more clearly defined character classes than CP2020: those altcults. They each come with very sharply different sets of abilities: nanotech cyberware, cybershells, borg bodies, etc. You can start out as a full 'borg if you go with the Cee-Metal altcult, and you will be tougher, stronger, and all around better than anyone else can be, able to singlehandedly unbalance all encounters (either all enemies have EMP, all enemies are way too tough for everyone else but you, or encounters are a cakewalk). Yes, they actually managed to introduce D&D-style class imbalance.

The game is full of artificial limitations. Apparently, tech is supposed to be completely and without fail controlled by the relevant altcults, so no one else has cyborg bodies, etc., and the only way to get your hands on the tech is to belong to the altcult.

Characters are ridiculously heavily armed. I hate that for so many reasons - not the least being that cyberpunk is supposed to be a kind of neo-noir, and in an ideal game the PCs wouldn't even be armed, much less heavily. A punk with a knife should be a realistic threat. Even in a combat-heavy cyberpunk game, it should be handguns and SMGs, maybe one guy with a rifle on overwatch. No, in CP203X, Edgerunners can get a rocket launcher and a micromissile pod (puny 4D6 and 2D10 damage), and it's cheap as anything - but that's the weak stuff. A Cee-Metal borg can get powerswords (8D6 damage) and wield antitank rifles (10D6 or 13D6 damage).

Finally, the book art and layout is hideous (and Pondsmith, who is basically solely responsible for everything in the book) is actually originally a graphic designer, apparently. Everything is green. The pictures are modded Barbie and Action Man dolls. I am not kidding. It is just embarrassing. They could have hired an artist off DeviantArt for peanuts and gotten far better.


And I'm not just change-hating here. I prefer the post-cyberpunk Shadowrun 4E over the old editions (everything except the damn comet business and half-dragons running all over the place suddenly). Setting changes are fine, but a setting that is entirely composed of stuff stolen from a couple of books (really, as far as I can see it's all just Diamond Age without the Victorianpunk charm, plus some Snow Crash) fitted together badly is not worth the green-tinted paper it's printed on. While I think cyberpunk and cyberpunk settings need to evolve, this isn't evolving - it's stagnation or devolving at best. It's a game from 2005 that didn't know 1995 was 10 years ago. (I didn't even realize it's been 5 years - in all that time, I have heard or read of no one who has played the game or even read the book and liked it, and in those 5 years no new publications have been made.)

CP2020 is superior, even with its shoddy mechanics - the setting is cliche but that's the whole point. It's the Forgotten Realms of cyberpunk - it's the freaking standard of cyberpunk RPGs, from which other cyberpunk RPGs deviate. It's a well-done cliche, a golden standard, and it works. The sourcebooks give the setting wonderful depth and rise beyond their roots in Gibson's Sprawl trilogy. CP203X trashes all of that in the most nonsensical ways, changes everything just to change everything, and is completely unrecognizable as an evolution of the old setting (I guess being familiar with Cybergeneration might help, but I kind of doubt it), except for some namedrops (Rache Bartmoss destroyed the 'net because something). Even the idea that it's year 203X is idiotic - the 'net dies, and suddenly nobody knows what year it is? No, seriously, it's called 203X because they know it's sometime in the 30s, and that's it.


Damnit, for all this, I think I'm going to give the rulebook another read. I am never going to play it - I am completely satisfied with my heavily modded/houseruled CP2020 and SR4 - but it's like watching Uwe Boll: I want to be sure I'm correct when I rant about it. There won't be anything enjoyable about it. It's not So Bad It's Good.

comicshorse
2010-08-19, 06:24 AM
The game has even more clearly defined character classes than CP2020: those altcults. They each come with very sharply different sets of abilities: nanotech cyberware, cybershells, borg bodies, etc. You can start out as a full 'borg if you go with the Cee-Metal altcult, and you will be tougher, stronger, and all around better than anyone else can be, able to singlehandedly unbalance all encounters (either all enemies have EMP, all enemies are way too tough for everyone else but you, or encounters are a cakewalk). Yes, they actually managed to introduce D&D-style class imbalance.

.

I'd just like to emphasise how terribly unbalanced the system is. For all those who know the Cyberpunk will know that Stun and Body Saves are a big part of it. The chance of your character just dying on the spot from wounds inflicted. In the combat section it casually points out that C-Metal cult are COMPLETELY IMMUNE TO ALL BODY OR STUN SAVES ( and of course completely immune to posion, disease and gas).
They don't pay points for this (it's a points buy system) they just get it.

Some of the writers were obviously aware of this. The archetypes of the weaker alt-cults given in the book often have spent several times the amount of points the stronger groups have in an attempt to make them vaguely match ( it doesn't help).

And yes everything else is just as horrible as Aroka makes out. My special loathing was reserved for the Disnee (?) alt-cult because in a post-apocalyptic wasteland a group that run theme parks would be sure to flourish

Psyx
2010-08-19, 06:27 AM
I like 2013, but preferred 2020: It ironed out a lot of the issues.

It's still a great game though. Love it.

"and I guess they were the sources which was then copied by D&D for third edition; you know the attribute+skill+dice system"

You've gotta be kidding? Stat+skill+die has been around for a very, very long while.

Aroka
2010-08-19, 07:12 AM
I'd just like to emphasise how terribly unbalanced the system is. For all those who know the Cyberpunk will know that Stun and Body Saves are a big part of it. The chance of your character just dying on the spot from wounds inflicted. In the combat section it casually points out that C-Metal cult are COMPLETELY IMMUNE TO ALL BODY OR STUN SAVES ( and of course completely immune to posion, disease and gas).
They don't pay points for this (it's a points buy system) they just get it.

I am unable to confirm this because I cannot find the rules for how cyborgs take damage. Do they have SDPs like in CP2020? But there's no hit location tracking anymore. After looking through the Cee-Metal cyber rules, FNFF, and the basic combat rules, I have no clue how the cyborgs handle damage.

comicshorse
2010-08-19, 07:18 AM
I have to admit I'm going off what I remember, I re-sold the book the first damn opportunity I got ( that said amny of the details are horribly seared into my brain). But I'm pretty sure that yes they took damage as SDP. ( Wether it used hit locations or not I can't remember).
Oh and what you said about needing to equip all the bad guys with EMP's ? I'm pretty sure all of them came equipped with Hardening as standard

Aroka
2010-08-19, 07:33 AM
Oh and what you said about needing to equip all the bad guys with EMP's ? I'm pretty sure all of them came equipped with Hardening as standard

Ah, right you are. Funnily, nowhere in the Cee-Metal cyberware section is hardedning mentioned, but the FNFF rules do say Livemetal 'ware (the borg bodies) is immune to EMP/microwaves.

So all the bad guys do need anti-tank rifles or powerswords or ballistic flechette guns to mildly threaten Cee-Metal PCs. These weapons will turn other PCs into red porridge.

The Big Dice
2010-08-19, 10:00 PM
I was introduced to Cyberpunk with the 2013 edition. It looked like someone made it at home with a dot matrix printer. And we loved it. Then came 2020, with a much more accessible Friday Night Firefight, plus much sexier source material. And the King of Cyberpunk was in.

The thing I liked was, it was full of holes. It was a game that demanded creativity from the GM. Rulings rather than rules. It's a funny paradox that in a lot of ways, Cyberpunk was a first generation storytelling game. What with all the noir influences and heavy emphasis on character driven plots. And yet at the same time, it's one of the last gasp of the old school of gaming. Where rules systems had holes in them and part of the fun of being a GM was making up patches to cover those holes.

You didn't even have to be consistent. Make a ruling and get on with the fun.

I'd definitely say open up that black and red box and go play some 'Punk. Don't sweat the details too much, just play the game. It's not about every situation needing a rule and every rule demanding a situation. It's about glittering parties, dirty streets, big guns, explosions and romance with the girl who works for the people you're getting paid to shoot at.

BobVosh
2010-08-20, 12:05 AM
I'm kinda surprised how few people seemed to have played 2013. 2020 is only 5 years newer.

Nice to know it should work well. All of them have played SR4, but nobody has done CP (to the best of knowledge)

Out of idle curiosity, how is CyberGeneration 2027?

Fhaolan
2010-08-20, 12:25 AM
I quite like 2013. I wish I still had the game. I traded mine (and a few other things) to get 2020, and I never really clicked with the revisions. Not the game system changes, that I was okay with, but there seemed to be some flavour lost as well. There was something wonderfully wonky about 2013 that I found fascinating.

BobVosh
2010-08-23, 01:46 PM
Lol. Looking through the time line and saw this gem:
1996: Lawyer Purge. irate citizen lynch hundreds of criminal defense attorneys.

Funny both in content, plus if you look closely "irate citizen" not "citizens."

Also the cell phone description and faxed newspapers are great. Kinda close, other than printing the paper rather than reading on a ereader/computer/ipad.

Aroka
2010-08-23, 02:41 PM
Lol. Looking through the time line and saw this gem:
1996: Lawyer Purge. irate citizen lynch hundreds of criminal defense attorneys.

Funny both in content, plus if you look closely "irate citizen" not "citizens."

Also the cell phone description and faxed newspapers are great. Kinda close, other than printing the paper rather than reading on a ereader/computer/ipad.

The timeline is awesome, and the 50 MHz briefcase-sized laptop computer in 2020's Chromebook 1 really cracks me up.

darkpuppy
2010-08-23, 02:53 PM
CyberGen (2027) was by no means for everybody. For a start, it uses the Fuzion rules system, and for seconds, it's slightly harder than usual to go full-on bionic-beserker, if that's your thing. But the idea behind it (you are some kids, hunted by the govt for... well, being kids, actually!...and then you get this plague thing that either kills you or gives you some weird cyber mutations... discuss.) actually allows for some pretty darn good roleplaying. On the downside, of course, it didn't actually do what they wanted much (present a game where the punk was back in cyberpunk, as opposed to the 6 million dollar man setups you were seeing in 2020... yes, the kids are squishy, but they have superpowers, for gawd's sake!) , and wasn't as popular as 2020, but, by damn, it was a lot better than the follow up, 2030 (or Cyberpunk V3, as it's known here)

Comet
2010-08-23, 03:09 PM
2013 is not bad by any means, I think. Definetly read through it, at least if you already have it.

2020 is where it's really at, I think. At least it's the one I've had the most contact with and it's awesome all around. Classic stuff. Plus, if you speak the language, the Finnish translation is one of the best translations of anything, ever. Seriously, cracking stuff.

203X is just bad. I never read through it properly, because the pages were filled with barbies and kens posing in fake scenes with ugly green filters put in to hide all the fakeness, but what I did read was okay at best, hella confusing at worst. Definetly a miss, that one.

chiasaur11
2010-08-23, 08:26 PM
Lol. Looking through the time line and saw this gem:
1996: Lawyer Purge. irate citizen lynch hundreds of criminal defense attorneys.

Funny both in content, plus if you look closely "irate citizen" not "citizens."


Geeze, who is this guy?

Sgt. Schlock?

The Glyphstone
2010-08-23, 08:39 PM
It is funnier to decide they mistyped "lynches" as "lynch" than "citizens" as "citizen", even though Occam would recommend the latter.

BobVosh
2010-08-26, 01:13 AM
It is funnier to decide they mistyped "lynches" as "lynch" than "citizens" as "citizen", even though Occam would recommend the latter.

He is quite sharp with his razor.

So any common pitfalls to watch out for in CP?

Aroka
2010-08-26, 02:10 AM
So any common pitfalls to watch out for in CP?

Not sure about 2013 specifically, but CP2020 has a pile of huge issues with combat. The main ones being:

Armor. It's trivially easy to get unnoticeable armor (basically Skinweave stacked with any worn armor, using the stacking rules) that gives you enough SP to make all but the heaviest handgun rounds bounce off you without leaving a mark, and to offer 50+ % reliable protection against assault rifles. This leads to a ridiculous arms race. When combined with maxed-out BODY, this is much, much worse. Listen Up, You Primitive Screwheads! offers a great alternative system that fixes this - most inobvious armor won't even be guaranteed protection from a thug with a knife, which is perfect. (Maxed-out BTM is still bad. I like to fix it by removing it, in which case high BODY still grants an advantage in the form of high stun/death saves, or by deriving the number of boxes on each wound level from BTM in some way, which I haven't really tested yet.)

Multiple actions. Optimized combat monsters can take something like 4-5 actions. 2020 is unclear on how these are resolved. If the Solo can take 4 actions before anyone else gets to act, he can destroy encounters even if he's limited to RoF per round per gun (optimized melee attacks - usually cyberleg kick with Thai Boxing, or just a monokatana - can be terrifying). This is easy enough to fix by running each round in sets of actions resolved by order of Initiative - first everyone gets one action in order of initiative, then anyone taking a second action gets theirs, and so on. Actions have to all be declared at once, obviously, since the negative modifier is cumulative.

The usual, obvious problems - like PCs getting their hands on anti-armor weaponry, or even just carrying assault rifles and wearing MetalGear on the street - are easy enough to resolve: there's going to be some authority with even heavier gear, and a lot more of it.

Some games are about elite specialists who get just the right gear for each job, but in general, cyberpunk PCs (regardless of the game) should be strapped for gear and forced to improvise and be clever.

The Big Dice
2010-08-26, 09:38 AM
Not sure about 2013 specifically, but CP2020 has a pile of huge issues with combat. The main ones being:
There's a bunch of similar issue really. Made more difficult by the fact that 2013 uses a combat system that quite deliberately tries to avoid ideas like hit points. And gets pretty cluttered because of it. To the point where you have a secondary character sheet to track damage and armour and stuff.

Armor.
That can be a serious issue. However, skinweave isn't perfectly hidden and you can always use the fact that the game is set in California during a time of massive global warming to offset the way players want to layer themselves in as much bullet proof material as they can.

Or use a monokatana against them.


Multiple actions.
That's not the worst of it. Unarmed combat isn't really explained properly. Nor is what the Dodge/Escape skill really does. Or most of the skills, come to think of it.

The thing is, the old school GM in me likes that.

Some games are about elite specialists who get just the right gear for each job, but in general, cyberpunk PCs (regardless of the game) should be strapped for gear and forced to improvise and be clever.
Hospital bills were one of my favourite ways to do some judicious asset stripping without it seeming forced. ICU time is horrifically expensive, and Trauma Team coverage only gets you to the hospital, it doesn't cover your expenses.

Aroka
2010-08-26, 03:07 PM
That can be a serious issue. However, skinweave isn't perfectly hidden and you can always use the fact that the game is set in California during a time of massive global warming to offset the way players want to layer themselves in as much bullet proof material as they can.

Actually, the Los Angeles Metroplex is described as being basically acid rain and smog with a bunch of people in corrosion-resistant rubber outerwear all carrying big guns and itching to shoot someone.

The armor busines is a lot less annoying without Chromebook 3 or 4 whichever had the custom armor rules - although I like the custom armor rules, so I prefer the LUYPS! solution to armor. Non-stacked concealable armor puts you at Protection Value 1, and stacked (or lighter non-concealable) puts you at 2, and only really obvious military armor (or being a Gemini conversion) goes above that, broadly.


That's not the worst of it. Unarmed combat isn't really explained properly. Nor is what the Dodge/Escape skill really does. Or most of the skills, come to think of it.

Don't all the Martial Arts list Dodge/Escape as a MArt maneuver you can get a bonus to? What's the general Dodge/Escape skill used for? Help!

Oh, also, what skill is used for throwing a grenade, and what's the target number? I haven't a clue, because the books don't tell you. (The "faithful" CPv3 doesn't, either!)


Also, I forgot a big one: Netrunning. It's near-impossible to run smoothly along regular operating, and if the 'runner wants to do an intense run while everyone else is basically having downtime, the rest of the group can just go for a pizza. PC netrunners require a lot of thought and trickery to fit into a game. The 2013 netrunning rules looked a lot more sensible to me, but the 2020 ones are horrible even aside from the time management - the virtual reality net makes absolutely no sense. Why would anyone build that and then put their corporation's secret information on there?

The 'Net material is all written by someone who had no idea about any of it (not surprisingly, since it was conceived in the late 80s). And I guess that's ironically faithful, too, since it's based on Gibsons stuff in the Sprawl trilogy, and he'd never touched a computer at that point. (He gets much better by the Bridge trilogy, actually presenting believable virtual meeting rooms and plausible hacker culture.) Later 90s supplements actually get pretty plausible, especially Chrome 3-4 and Rache's net guide, with Daemons and the like, but it's all still built on the ridiculous World of Warcraft net.


I do agree that the game's DIY style of play works surprisingly well, though - just make rulings and keep things rolling along, and don't sweat the small stuff. It's very appropriate for a cyberpunk game: a cyberpunk is nothing if not a hacker, and if you want to play hackers, you've got to play like hackers.

comicshorse
2010-08-26, 04:47 PM
Oh, also, what skill is used for throwing a grenade, and what's the target number? I haven't a clue, because the books don't tell you. (The "faithful" CPv3 doesn't, either!)



Athletics I think. It say's in Chromebook one that the use of the saucer grenade goes on Athletics so that's what we always used

Aroka
2010-08-26, 05:25 PM
Athletics I think. It say's in Chromebook one that the use of the saucer grenade goes on Athletics so that's what we always used

But what's the target number and range for a hand grenade? The game is full of these weird holes.

The Big Dice
2010-08-27, 06:04 AM
The game is full of these weird holes.
Given a little time I could probably go on and on about the holes and some of the fixes I came up with for them.

But that's defeating the point. I totally agree that you have to play the game like a hacker. Patching things on the fly and doing what you can to dodge, defuse and corrpt the Black ICE that the system is full of.

And you have to do it yourself in a live fire situation.

But I will say, don't allow burst fire to be targetted. Guns kick when you pull the trigger, and shooting at moving targets is going to make close groupings hard at best and randomly rolled in play...

Aroka
2010-08-27, 06:11 AM
But I will say, don't allow burst fire to be targetted. Guns kick when you pull the trigger, and shooting at moving targets is going to make close groupings hard at best and randomly rolled in play...

For def. Although it doesn't really work too well either way. Bursts do group, so how you're hitting a dude in the leg, chest, arm, and head all with the same burst from 50 feet away is going to be a bit of a mystery. Not that it matters that much.

Also, the most important tip ever (for 2020): Reaper Rounds*. They do not exist. Because if they do, PCs will inevitably get their hands on them.

* Each hit is actually 1D3 hits on the same location, ignore soft armor, halve hard armor and reduce by 2 SP, and IIRC double damage on penetration. That's the single most broken thing in the game, worse than Dragoons doing flying Panzerfaust kicks (which can already wreck IFVs). There's a definite splatbook effect, even if most of the Chromebooks are mostly full of cool, rather than powerful, stuff. And, of course, RRs aren't even in a Chromebook, they're in the UK sourcebook, which is mostly pretty cool.

The Big Dice
2010-08-27, 10:04 AM
For def. Although it doesn't really work too well either way. Bursts do group, so how you're hitting a dude in the leg, chest, arm, and head all with the same burst from 50 feet away is going to be a bit of a mystery. Not that it matters that much.
From a GM perspective, it's far less irksome than a PC going "Three round burst to the head" three or four times a round :smallamused:

Also, the most important tip ever (for 2020): Reaper Rounds*. They do not exist. Because if they do, PCs will inevitably get their hands on them.
Those things are nasty, and there's an SMG in Chromebook 1 that does something very similar. But the one my players always seemed to like was Electrothermal Ammo Enhancement. "I can double my base damage? Sign me up for some of that!" Though the no full auto restriction there helped some.

Aroka
2010-08-27, 12:09 PM
EAE was pretty standard, yeah. Although I think it was just a x1.5 multiplier (so 4D6 became 6D6, etc.) ? If the game is high-powered (say, you're running Firestorm, the 4th Corp War), it won't be very over-powered. Frag flechettes were pretty terrifying, too - not nearly as bad as Reaper Rounds, but still impressive - they divided armor and multiplied penetrating damage.

I had a great document somewhere of different ammo modifications, including super-frangible rounds (stopped by any armor or structure, but huge damage multiplier if not stopped), and so on.

Weird ammunition is pretty standard in good SF and cyberpunk anyway - it's a very natural extension of advancing military technology. Didn't Neuromancer actually have exploding flechette rounds?

comicshorse
2010-08-27, 01:03 PM
Those things are nasty, and there's an SMG in Chromebook 1 that does something very similar. .

The Malorian Arms Sub-Flechette gun. I hated that gun, burst fire capable and every shot becomes six more. One P.C. used it just because he knew I'd often give up calculating all the hits and just rule he'd killed the guy


Weird ammunition is pretty standard in good SF and cyberpunk anyway - it's a very natural extension of advancing military technology. Didn't Neuromancer actually have exploding flechette rounds?


Yep, to quote :
" If they hit something hard they explode, if they hit something soft, like you, they explode three seconds later."
" Why the delay "
" That way you get to think about it "

The Big Dice
2010-08-27, 02:29 PM
The Malorian Arms Sub-Flechette gun. I hated that gun, burst fire capable and every shot becomes six more. One P.C. used it just because he knew I'd often give up calculating all the hits and just rule he'd killed the guy
I found it tends to do a point per extra die rolled. The damage divisor was harsh. Also, it's pretty much useless against hard armour. Once word gets out that a PC is using one, some dude with body plating plus arms and legs is going to be his worst nightmare.

I'd really like to play some Cyberpunk again, but the Netrunning aspect of it is just laughable now. Not so much for the programs and net combat and stuff. More for the clunky VR interface and things like there not being a Search finction, nor a means to go directly to any site you want to.

BobVosh
2010-08-27, 11:23 PM
I'd really like to play some Cyberpunk again, but the Netrunning aspect of it is just laughable now. Not so much for the programs and net combat and stuff. More for the clunky VR interface and things like there not being a Search finction, nor a means to go directly to any site you want to.

Then how do you explore the net?

The Big Dice
2010-08-28, 09:08 AM
Then how do you explore the net?

That's the problem. The Net in Cyberpunkwas developed before there was any real idea of how it would really develop. I don't think the core mechanics of it need an overhaul, but some of the ideas do.

Like the way you can only netrun from your playstation, not your computer. And more importantly, the lack of anything like a search engine.

It wouldn't be impossible to do, but it would be a big task. POssibly too big to be worth botering with, sadly. My players aren't fans of 'punk for the most part :smallsigh:

darkpuppy
2010-08-28, 12:15 PM
Netrunning in Cy-Pee can be a problem, it's true, but a "search engine" for public nodes is easy enough to homebrew in. As to running only from your cyberdeck (a combo PDA-Router-Miniputer), there is an In-Setting rationale for this, but not a very good one. Basically, I give desktops cyberdeck stats and a jack-port, unless they're archaic models, or deliberately net isolated.

As to the problem of "Our netrunner's running, and we're faffing around", I find two things extremely useful there. One, giving the rest of the party something to do, and two, the old "Focus a bit on one group, then cut to the other... rinse, repeat" mechanic... it's worked well enough for all my groups so far.

Aroka
2010-08-28, 02:47 PM
Then how do you explore the net?

You walk.

I am not kidding you, you walk. It's a place made of squares or grids with blocks on them - datafortresses. Or something. It's so poorly described it makes me want to cry, and none of it make sense.

2013 seemed to have an infinitely smarter system from the glance I got to give it - locations are organized into nodes, rather than into some weird 3D space with objects littered in it.

I think Rache's net guide (which really has good stuff, but is still working from the pile of crap that's the core of the net system) had plenty of rules for net-capable computers. You can even run without being plugged in - in fact, most people do it just like that - but you'll be like a fly in tar compared to actual netrunners.

SR4 really has a much better take on the 'net - it's everywhere, and everyone uses it. But that's to be expected, because the difference between the worlds the writers lived in was huge. In another 25 years, everyone's going to laugh at the ridiculous ideas in SR4.

darkpuppy
2010-08-28, 04:28 PM
Well, in pure rules terms it's described like that, true, Aroka... but if you look at the netrunning chapter in detail, you'll find it's actually a little bit closer to how SR4 handled it, only without the HUD element of AR glasses and stuff. You can fly and shizzle through the net, you can look however you want if you hack it right, and the only reason they put in the whole grid thing was to help you visualise it easier. As far as those godawful grid maps go, I never used them, I did it like the opening fluff, and the rules perfectly allowed it.