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View Full Version : Figments in Dnd 3.5?



Noctemwolf
2010-08-19, 10:53 AM
I came across an argument in a thread recently about what is possible to do with figments, such as creating a false door being the main example.
Link (It's starts on page 7) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164232&highlight=Obscure+rules&page=7) (Okay, so the argument is off topic, it's relevant in this thread!)

I went about trying to make sense of this. One of the lines in the subscool's rules is:
"A figment cannot make something seem to be something else."
Ruling is here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#figment)

The arguments in there really got me thinking.
What is the point of casting an illusion spell if it's not allowed to make something look like something else?
Isn't that kind of the point of those kind of spells?

I looked up some examples from the wizards website Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060228a), and I want to see if I can get this right.

Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. The closest I can think for that then, is you can't make poison smell like flowers (It doesn't include things like sensory qualities in it). I believe the line was put in there to keep you from using the spell as a makeshift invisibility spell (You can't something seem like it isn't there. This is supported in the wizard article).

So, the idea is that you can cover a pit with the illusion of a floor (After all, there isn't anything there), but you can't make a trap door look like part of the floor. If you were to try, I imagine it would kind of look like a bad video game, where (I'm guessing the crash detection?) doesn't work well and objects go through each other. That's what I see when a wizard uses a silent image inncorrectly. He could instead make a bump of floor over said trap door, but that would look pretty suspicious. It would be better to, say, create an illusionary carpet or box over the door.

you use the spell to create only a visual effect. You can't actually make a dwarf feel, smell, and radiate heat like an ogre, but you can hide the dwarf in the illusion of the ogres foot, maybe.

For the door example, I looked at a normal door in my house. The frame sticks out from the wall slightly, so making the illusion of door over a flat wall should work. If a major piece of the wall stuck out, then the door illusion wouldn't work because you can't make the stone that would stick thorugh the door seem like it isn't there (kind of odd to see a piece of stone sticking out of a door, right)? The illusion can conform to other objects (Using the example of a bricked up archway from the wizard's website), so the edges of the door can conform to the wall. Since this is a visual illusion, there's no need to make the entire door, only the bit people can see. However, you would not be able to make it look like there wasn't a wall behind the door if a person, say, looked through the crack under the door.
This is the same reason why you can't make a door look like a stretch of blank wall with a figment. You can't make something invisible (That's for glamers.) You can make it looked boarded up, though.

So, the whole point of a figment is to make a visual illusion, and thats it. =)

I think you can sort of get around some aspects of changing objects by simply concealing them behind the illusion. For example, I would not be able to make the wall look blue, but I could make an illusion of the exact same wall over it that was the color blue... fitting over the wall like a glove over a hand. but your hand could go through that illusion. at least, I'm guessing.

Altogether, figments are used to create the illusion of objects being there, not to make something seem like it isn't there.



I have a few questions for you guys to ponder: you can make paintings with these figments, right? So, would I be able to make a photorealistic picture of a pit and place it over a flat floor? Obviously, they can't fall into it, but it's not making something look like it isn't there. (Well, it is, but indirectly, the same way most other figements make thing hidden). You would probably have to be really, Really good at optical illusions to make this sort of thing work, though.

I think this entire thing is a little hapazard and not well written or organized. I'll work on that. for now, let me know what you guys think. Did I get it right, or is there something I missed?

dsmiles
2010-08-19, 11:02 AM
I have a few questions for you guys to ponder: you can make paintings with these figments, right? So, would I be able to make a photorealistic picture of a pit and place it over a flat floor? Obviously, they can't fall into it, but it's not making something look like it isn't there. (Well, it is, but indirectly, the same way most other figements make thing hidden). You would probably have to be really, Really good at optical illusions to make this sort of thing work, though.

I think this entire thing is a little hapazard and not well written or organized. I'll work on that. for now, let me know what you guys think. Did I get it right, or is there something I missed?

This, specifically, is the reason I like 1e illusion/phantasm spells. You could do that, and they could "fall in" and have to make a system shock check to see if they died.

Lysander
2010-08-19, 11:51 AM
I think one major thing to remember is that a figment isn't a hologram. Silent Image doesn't actually create light, or anything that actually enters your eye. It's all purely psychological magic, otherwise a will save wouldn't let you see through it. On some basic level you can still see things as they actually are, just your mind is being forced not to acknowledge it. Since the spell is based on a psychological trick, who's to argue with how specific it is or what it's limitations are? Perhaps altering something already in existence requires tricking a completely different part of the brain.

And yes, you could put a photorealistic picture of a pit (http://www.cartridgesave.co.uk/news/9-amazing-3d-pavement-paintings/) on the ground. But the perspective would only look real when standing from one specific spot, and even then it would look a little weird, assuming they fail the will save they would assuredly get for looking at it.