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Elemist13
2010-08-19, 11:14 PM
I was wondering if anyone had come across any rules that involve Crits involving touch attacks.

For example, I have a player who is playing a Master Thrower. This allows him many attacks a round where he only has to hit touch AC. He usually ends with one or more criticals a round. The fact that I am using a critical/fumble table makes this rather over powered.

The house rule I have put into place is that if he criticals with a touch attack from his daggers he must then have to meet or exceed the defenders regular AC on the confirm role.

Has anyone has anyone come across any rules that involve touch attack criticals?

PId6
2010-08-19, 11:35 PM
Crits with touch attacks work normally just like crits with regular attacks. The only difference between touch attacks and regular attacks is that touch attacks ignore natural armor, armor, and shield bonuses to AC (and yes, this applies to the confirmation roll as well). You're free to houserule it as you wish, but the default rules don't give any special treatment to crits with touch attacks.

I highly doubt this would be that overpowered considering he's spent 5 of his levels in Master Thrower to get it, and extra dice of damage (such as Sneak Attack) aren't multiplied on a crit. I guess if your crit tables include things like dismemberment or automatic kills or something, it might be, but I'd heavily recommend against critical/fumble houserules, especially with such severe results.

Paul H
2010-08-20, 05:56 PM
Hi

Much as in the last post, but what weapons are you using? They decide the threat range/crit multiplier.

If you were efefctively able to do touch attacks with daggers, then the norm would be 19-20/x2 crit. Touch atacks with spells is 20/x2 crit.

The threat range for a spell storing dagger would be 19-20/x2 for both the dagger and the spell within. (The crit multiplier doesn't increase - so spell storing Scythe doesn't do quad damage with the spell, just the scythe).

Hope that helped
Paul H

Thurbane
2010-08-20, 06:04 PM
Slightly OT - in a recent session of the EtCR game I'm running, a Spectre managed to get 2 crits in a row against a level 8 Paladin - on each crit, the level drain is doubles (i.e. 4 levels). I ended up fudging the second critical, as I thought losing 8 levels in 2 rounds (and dying) was a bit too nasty...I'm a softy at heart.

Elemist13
2010-08-20, 07:16 PM
Hi

Much as in the last post, but what weapons are you using? They decide the threat range/crit multiplier.



They were using daggers, with the crits amplified to 17-20/x3. Combined with palm throw, two weapon fighting and returning weapons he was getting between six and eight attacks a round. He couldnt add his STR bonus to damage but due to his levels in swashbuckler he could add his INT.

I was running The Red Hand of Doom for that campaign and he took down the Incarnation of Tiamet in one round.

This was mainly due to the Crit Table so I think I will adjust my critical hit table to make it a little less destructive when combined with so many criticals.

Greenish
2010-08-20, 07:28 PM
They were using daggers, with the crits amplified to 17-20/x3. Combined with palm throw, two weapon fighting and returning weapons he was getting between six and eight attacks a round.Returning weapons return to your hand in the beginning of your next turn. You can only catch one with each hand, and the rest will fall to the ground (move action to pick up).

Glimbur
2010-08-20, 08:02 PM
Crit tables change the balance of the game. Another thing to consider about them is that PC's take more attacks than any one monster does over the course of the game, so while permanent damage on a crit table may seem cool at first it will lead to damage PC's.

Elemist13
2010-08-20, 08:40 PM
Returning weapons return to your hand in the beginning of your next turn. You can only catch one with each hand, and the rest will fall to the ground (move action to pick up).

Master Throwers have to have the quick draw feat and with my lack of foresight I allowed him to sheathe the ones he caught at the beginning of the round and the quick draw feat lets a character to attack at his normal rate of attacks with thrown weapons.

In hindsight, I shouldn't have let him sheathe and then draw multiple returning weapons in a single turn.

FMArthur
2010-08-20, 10:00 PM
Maybe giving him between 48000 and 64000 gp for those 6-8 +1 Returning daggers was not such a great idea either?

Tyndmyr
2010-08-20, 11:03 PM
This was mainly due to the Crit Table so I think I will adjust my critical hit table to make it a little less destructive when combined with so many criticals.

That would probably be it. Crit tables are almost invariably a bad idea. Either they're just extra fluff that slows the game down for little result, or they throw off game balance, and are hilariously exploitable.

At least, in D&D. Some other systems handle such things much more gracefully. D&D combat operates on a pretty heavy degree of abstraction.

Elemist13
2010-08-21, 10:46 AM
Maybe giving him between 48000 and 64000 gp for those 6-8 +1 Returning daggers was not such a great idea either?

That and the fact that they had an artificer in the group made those insanely cheap to make. The artificer was actually just as powerful as he was but the player never had the artificer do anything in combat except make his AC go through the roof and watch the rest of the party battle.

Greenish
2010-08-21, 12:44 PM
That and the fact that they had an artificer in the group made those insanely cheap to make. The artificer was actually just as powerful as he was but the player never had the artificer do anything in combat except make his AC go through the roof and watch the rest of the party battle.Pre-made adventures are rarely designed for the more optimized groups, which may have contributed.

Aotrs Commander
2010-08-21, 01:47 PM
Pre-made adventures are rarely designed for the more optimized groups, which may have contributed.

Depressingly true. I ran the 3.5 conversion of Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth from Dungeon, and the 10th-level crusader could have nearly soloed it. Not by any optimisation ability, or ToB abuse, but simply having level-appropriate equipment! One set of +3 full plate, a +1 ring and a +3 heavy shield later and most of the monsters couldn't even hit her! (Of course, that the average CR for a 10-12th level adventure was about 7ish or so didn't help. There were, like, three fights period the party didn't pulverise!)

Marnath
2010-08-21, 01:54 PM
Returning weapons return to your hand in the beginning of your next turn. You can only catch one with each hand, and the rest will fall to the ground (move action to pick up).

Maybe he is using the common houserule that rather than come back to you, a returning weapon hits, and then teleports back to it's sheath/harness. I know it's been the way it works in several of the novels based on the system.

Runestar
2010-08-21, 07:45 PM
Maybe giving him between 48000 and 64000 gp for those 6-8 +1 Returning daggers was not such a great idea either?

Not really a big deal, since I believe there is a pair of gloves (players guide to faerun, not sure if updated anywhere else) which grants the throwing and returning property to weapons you throw. :smalltongue:

olelia
2010-08-22, 07:44 PM
Silly question, but since we have established critting with touch attacks is kosher...is there anything preventing you coup de grace-ing an unconscious part member with a Cure X spell or even a Heal spell? :smallconfused:

Fax Celestis
2010-08-22, 08:20 PM
Silly question, but since we have established critting with touch attacks is kosher...is there anything preventing you coup de grace-ing an unconscious part member with a Cure X spell or even a Heal spell? :smallconfused:

Cure spells don't deal damage, so they have no extra effect on a critical hit. Inflicts, however...

olelia
2010-08-22, 08:25 PM
But don't they deal damage to undead? >.> <.<

Fax Celestis
2010-08-22, 08:27 PM
But don't they deal damage to undead? >.> <.<

So if you touch attack an undead creature with cure critical wounds and crit, you get to deal 8d8+2*CL damage. But non-damage effects aren't multiplied, so no crit hit healing.

olelia
2010-08-22, 08:29 PM
:smallfrown:

Edit: Though to actually add something to the conversation...thanks Fax. This had come up in a previous game and we honestly weren't sure. Now looking at the relevant sections it does make clear of the intentions of critical attacks and damage.

Jack Zander
2010-08-22, 11:32 PM
But wait, if you are a rogue then you can sneak attack with spells that require a hit. If you hit with a spell that doesn't deal damage you deal negative energy damage for your sneak attack, right? So you could coup de grace someone with a cure spell and deal more damage than you cured, right?

WinWin
2010-08-22, 11:34 PM
technically, the rogue would be inflicting positive energy damage

Fax Celestis
2010-08-22, 11:59 PM
But wait, if you are a rogue then you can sneak attack with spells that require a hit. If you hit with a spell that doesn't deal damage you deal negative energy damage for your sneak attack, right? So you could coup de grace someone with a cure spell and deal more damage than you cured, right?

Theoretically, yes. But like they said, you'd be curing them Xd8+Y HP, and then dealing Xd6 positive energy damage.

Paul H
2010-08-24, 10:33 PM
Hi

And the Heal/Harm spells can't kill anyway. No matter how much damage you do, the victim still ends up with a minimum of 1 HP.

Undead are normally immune to crits (except in pathfinder), as well as being immune to Death Effects, so no coup de gras.......... But Inflict spells are another story.. (as already posted).

But why use a spell anyway? You don't have to be proficient with that Great Axe or Scythe to coup de gras......... :smallsmile:

Thanks
Paul H

Thurbane
2010-08-24, 11:52 PM
And the Heal/Harm spells can't kill anyway. No matter how much damage you do, the victim still ends up with a minimum of 1 HP.
This seems to be a common misreading of the spell (due to the slightly ambiguous wording, which I've seen hotly debated, even at my own table)...the cannot go below 1HP part of the spell only applies on a successful save. A failed save can still kill you stone dead.

If the creature successfully saves, harm deals half this amount, but it cannot reduce the targetís hit points to less than 1.

PId6
2010-08-25, 12:00 AM
Returning weapons return to your hand in the beginning of your next turn. You can only catch one with each hand, and the rest will fall to the ground (move action to pick up).
Funny thing that just came to mind: if you have a throwing and returning unarmed strike (such as via Amulet of Natural Attacks or Kensai), and you throw both of your hands in one round, would you still be able to catch the hands as they return back (even though you've no hand to catch them with) or would they drop to the ground? :smalltongue:

Greenish
2010-08-25, 08:57 AM
Funny thing that just came to mind: if you have a throwing and returning unarmed strike (such as via Amulet of Natural Attacks or Kensai), and you throw both of your hands in one round, would you still be able to catch the hands as they return back (even though you've no hand to catch them with) or would they drop to the ground? :smalltongue:If you have throwing, returning unarmed strike, why are you attacking with your fists? :smallamused:

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-08-25, 10:25 AM
If you have throwing, returning unarmed strike, why are you attacking with your fists? :smallamused:

Because rocketpunch?

Greenish
2010-08-25, 10:27 AM
Because rocketpunch?Bah, when you could do Rocket Pelvic Thrust?

Rocket Earlobe!