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TheThan
2010-08-23, 02:49 PM
Hey look its two weekly threads rolled into one. :smallbiggrin:

Ok seriously Iíve been wanting to run a dnd game using psionics for a while now. It looks like I might get that chance, as my friends (and gaming group) are starting to feel like doing some role playing.

So one of the issues with this system (and every other sub system), is that it doesnít quite fully integrate into the base 3.5 system. Because of this I have to sort of make it fit (in other words: use a bigger hammer). One issue Iíve noticed is the lack of adequate psionic healing. Magical healing is very important in dnd, as there is no other efficient way to heal characters (even when your cleric/druid are not walking Band-Aid dispensers). The obvious answer to this is to simply run with the standard cleric (probably use a cloistered cleric for this) and druid options.

While this works, I would honestly like it to be a bit more integrated. Iím thinking of using a heavily modified spell point system with the standard divine spell list, though I will have to make some heavy changes to how spells work so they function like psionics (IE augmenting spells). For example instead of the cure light wounds line, I would just have a single ďcureĒ spell that you can augment to add dice to it, for example 1d6 (+1 per level), +1d6 for every time you augment it. So a first level cleric could heal 1d6+1(level)+1d6(augment). The HP would range from 3-13 HP. Now the problem with this is that Iíd have to do a whole lot of homebrewing and essentially rewrite a huge chunk of the playerís handbook. Which I donít really think I have the time to deal with.

So I guess Iím trying to come up with an alternate way to provide healing without having to rely on the use of clerics/druids. Does anyone have any ideas?

Another thing Iíve been slowly doing is introducing them to splat books, Iíve already used the PHBII and the spell compendium. Now I want to introduce them to the Expanded psionics handbook and the TOB. Theyíve already had a small amount of experience with TOB, mostly from watching another more experienced player use it. Some of them are already of the opinion that it is broken, thanks to the above-mentioned player being a min/maxer and us having a very lenient and wishy-washy DM (someone else wanted to try Dming, so I stepped down and ran a sorcerer). So naturally I want to break them of the belief that TOB is horribly broken by letting them use it and see for themselves.

Now my idea is sound in theory, but I want to know how you all think psionics and tob stack up with each other. It seems they are about equal it overall power, so no one should have any innate advantage in power (I like to keep things fairly even and fair across the board). So what do you all think about combining the two systems?

Also, this is the available list of classes that I am probably going to run with (as of now).

Crusader
Warblade
Swordsage
Psion
Wilder
Rogue
Cleric (cloistered)
Druid (shape change)

subject42
2010-08-23, 02:52 PM
If you can get away with introducing another supplement, a Binder can get unlimited out-of-combat healing at fifth level.

If you can't do that, a Psychic Warrior can do some decent healing with Vigor and... Empathic Transfer?

Greenish
2010-08-23, 02:53 PM
How about the psychic rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) instead of the default one, to stay in the spirit of psionics?

[Edit]: Psychic Warrior is the quintessential psionic gish-in-a-can. I'd recommend allowing it.

TheThan
2010-08-23, 02:56 PM
Weíve tried running more than 2 splat books before, and it gets a little out of hand (some are overwhelmed, some just go nuts) so Iím trying to avoid running more than 2 at once.

Also I like the idea of psionic rogue, Iíll take a closer look at it, and I might have to steal it (har har).

dsmiles
2010-08-23, 02:58 PM
Hey look its two weekly threads rolled into one. :smallbiggrin:

Some valid concerns and a wall'o'text later...

I think you're in good shape. Consider making the Cure X Wounds into an augmentable Psion/Wilder power. I like psionics, but there isn't any real healing available. (AFB, but nothing in XPH. I don't know about Complete Psionic.)

I really like that I don't have to expend max PP on any power, if I don't want to/need to. Why should I use an 8d10 mind thrust when a 2d10 mind thrust will do just as well (and save some PP that I can use later)?

Not overly familiar with ToB. It came out as my interest in 3.5 was dying and I was waiting for a fourth edition that fixed everything I saw as "wrong." I've read it, and don't really think it fits well with the 3.x system. It almost was 4e, to a point.

Sallera
2010-08-23, 02:59 PM
Heavy use of Vigor is, I think, expected in high-psionics games. It's fairly efficient, especially with wild surge, and can be used prior to combat on the occasion you know it's coming. You could also allow your psions and wilders access to the Touch of Health power from CPsi, which while inefficient (2hp/pp), might be better than nothing on occasion. And of course, there's the usual solution of UMDing healing wands.

You might also suggest use of the Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) instead of the standard Rogue, if you want to encourage use of the subsystem. ...and ninja'd, naturally.

As both Psionics and ToB are fairly balanced out of the box, as long as you don't get into some of the sillier issues (Affinity Field abuse, Iron Heart Surge, etc.) they should play nicely together.

Greenish
2010-08-23, 03:02 PM
Not overly familiar with ToB. It came out as my interest in 3.5 was dying and I was waiting for a fourth edition that fixed everything I saw as "wrong." I've read it, and don't really think it fits well with the 3.x system. It almost was 4e, to a point.Don't we already have 20-something page thread on the topic haunting the first page?

This one isn't about whether or not ToB sucks, but on combining ToB and psionics.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-23, 03:15 PM
They aren't mutually exclusive nor are made to be synergetic. You can expect from tob/psionic interaction to be detached, but both are powerful on their own. Given the way arcane and psionic interact, you won't have much trouble making those arcane/martial prestige classes psionic/martial.


Psychic warrior is the base class that can best pull off being a gish from 1 to 20, and is much simpler than most alternatives (even if just for being pp instead of vancian tables).

Healing in psionics? there are a couple classes and body adjustment. I don't think they ever intended for psis to have major healing.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-23, 03:18 PM
I think you're in good shape. Consider making the Cure X Wounds into an augmentable Psion/Wilder power. I like psionics, but there isn't any real healing available. (AFB, but nothing in XPH. I don't know about Complete Psionic.)

Yeah, you should do this.

subject42
2010-08-23, 03:28 PM
I forgot to mention it earlier, but the canonical WotC psionic healer is called the "Sangehirn". It's a prestige class that's available in a web supplement here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c

Eldan
2010-08-23, 03:32 PM
Well, you could use vitality and wound points instead of HP, and make vitality points heal quickly after a fight.

Or you could give psionics a few self-healing powers (healing others seems strange with psionics, not quite fitting the flavour).

Frosty
2010-08-23, 03:34 PM
Well, you could use vitality and wound points instead of HP, and make vitality points heal quickly after a fight.

Or you could give psionics a few self-healing powers (healing others seems strange with psionics, not quite fitting the flavour).
If you can asplode their insides with your brain, then why can't you knit their wounds closed?

Draz74
2010-08-23, 03:40 PM
I forgot to mention it earlier, but the canonical WotC psionic healer is called the "Sangehirn". It's a prestige class that's available in a web supplement here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c

The Sangehirn makes an awesome Psionic healer, but only if your party is at least Level 9. :smallyuk: Besides, there's always a couple little random Cleric spells that still aren't represented at all in the psionics system, but are quite necessary for certain encounters. (Align Weapon, I'm looking at you. :smallannoyed:)

So I encourage throwing in a few houserules to make the basic Psion more cleric-worthy, or make Sangehirn enterable much earlier or something.

Note that there's an augmentable "Cure" substitute power in Complete Psionic. "Mend Wounds." Simply heals 5 HP per PP spent, which is nicer than having to roll a die for healing. However, it does come from another splatbook, and without houserules it's not available until Level 11. :smallsigh:

If you do keep the Cleric and the Druid rather than buffing up psionics to be able to do the same things, I recommend the Spontaneous Divine Casting variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm). Reduces bookkeeping, reduces breakability, makes them more similar to psionic classes, and IMO improves the flavor too!

You could also consider allowing the Ranger in your class selections, since you're a bit low on (1) classes for archers, (2) skill-heavy classes, and (3) nature-themed classes. Ranger is a little bit weak compared to the other allowed classes, but not horrifically so. You could always buff it up with a couple houserules, too, like full-progression Animal Companion.

classy one
2010-08-23, 03:45 PM
You should allow psywar since it is really the best melee in the game. No really, even better than the vaulted ToB classes. Especially if they use metamorphosis, expansion and hustle.

For healing the way to do it is to use psicrystal+ share power+ vigor to get a bunch of temp HP, then use empathic transfer. If you are an ardent (CPsi) using dominant mantle you can maximize your empathic transfer to max without even expanding your focus. Psionics heal just fine, but it is more roundabout.

ToB has two feats that were meant to be used with psionics: Instant Clarity and Psychic renewal. Instant Clarity let you regain focus after you have used a manuvuer, and Psychic Renewal lets you regain a manuvuer by expending your focus. Both work well but Instant Clarity has the annoying limit of 3/day while Psychis renewal does not.

TheThan
2010-08-24, 05:02 PM
OK Iíve done with the ranger variant I mentioned. I really like how it came out. However to due legality issues I donít think I can post the numbers to the important bits. So i'll just do a summery.

Iíve replaced the rangers spell progression (as lousy as it is anyway) with the stance/maneuver system from TOB. The ranger progresses as a warblade. They have access to desert wind, iron heart, shadow hand, tiger claw, and white raven. I could fit all of the disciplines into the concept of a ranger, though I feel that these fit the general concept of the ranger the best.

Desert wind:
Rangers are typically lightly armed and armored melee warriors. Desert wind is all about that quickness and sudden explosion of damage.

Iron heart:
Spending all of his time in the wilderness honing his hunting, survival and combat capabilities. A ranger becomes a tremendously skilled warrior, having almost supernatural control over his weapons.

Shadow hand:
Rangers are excellent hunters. Shadow hand is all about striking from ambush. From the shadows, like a hunter stalking his prey.

Tiger claw:
The fluff of tiger claw fits well with favored enemy. As a ranger gets filled with rage he can unleash his tiger claw attacks upon his favored enemies for a devastating combo.

White raven:
Rangers come with an animal companion, which gives them an edge in combat. With white raven, the two fight as one. They are more than just pet and owner, they are partners and loyal allies.


For a Recovery mechanic a ranger must spent 5 minutes alone to recover his spend maneuvers (however he is allowed the company of his animal companion). Iíve decided that rangers are solitary people, and they gain a certain amount of center and focus when they spend some time alone.

Iíve replaced combat style with bonus archery feats: point blank shot, far shot, precise shot, improved precise shot, rapid shot, many shot, shot on the run, and rapid reload. He gains these at 2nd, 6th and 11th and 18th level and are in addition to any other feats he is entitled to at these levels.

Iíve also added in the natureís blessing, healing touch and freedom of movement abilities from the complete warrior non-magical ranger variant. However Iíve stuck these in at 12, 14th, and 16th levels instead of the normal suggested one. Since the ranger has a lot of dead levels at higher levels I think this will help to balance the class across 20 levels.

I believe everything else is as per the standard ranger.