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View Full Version : The quick and the dead - can quick draw be useed to gain a surprise attack?



jpreem
2010-08-24, 12:35 PM
I have been thinking a lot of roguelike or assassin type of characters. A common method of assassination ( and the reason that daggers have somewhat of unsaviory reputation) has always been to unsheatha hidden dagger and quickly plunge it into the target. In some case even when done in public ( or especially) it is possible to mingle in crowd and disappear even before the body hits the ground.
So i was thinking about a character, who could finish his "marks" by beaing "just another random dude" ( a bartend, panhandler, fishmongler, whatever), until the moment he just sticks a wicked knife in somebody.
But then i got all mixed up with rules. SO how would you rule those scircumstances.
1.A guy with a dagger not hidden. in plain sight of his intended victim.
Draws -stabs
2.A guy with a dagger not hidden. in plain sight of his intended victim. Has quickdraw. Draws -stabs
3.A guy with a hidden dagger(we assume he passed the spot check of his victim).In plain sight of his intended victim.Draws - stabs.
4.A guy with a hidden dagger.In plain sight of his intended victim. Has quick draw. Draws- stabs.

No 1. should be clear - we roll initiative. But no. 2 would a quickdraw make a difference? I would still say just roll an initiative. No. 3 and 4. thats where the guessing starts. For 3. i would probably give a roll for initiative. But the most problematic thing is no 4. I say the guy should get a surprise round to make after he has drawn a weapon( not much to ask for a feat and good skill check). He should really get this after drawing the weapon though otherwise it would be useless because you can only make a standard action on your surpirse round. I don't see any raw support for this though.
So what do you fellow playgrounders think of it?

Greenish
2010-08-24, 12:40 PM
They all are clear. If the victim doesn't suspect anything, you get a surprise round. In #1, #3 and #4, you'd spend it drawing the dagger.

If the victim knows you're coming for him and spots you, roll initiative.

Mongoose87
2010-08-24, 12:41 PM
I would say drawing the dagger in sight of the target starts the surprise round, so you can spend your standard to get one attack.

jpreem
2010-08-24, 12:47 PM
So the only bonus quick draw gives to retrieving hidden weapons, is that you can retrieve and use them in the same combat round. When the combat has already started.
Kinda lame - ( because you kinda lost the point of having a hidden weapon, when you got dragged into a combat anyway. )
So there is no way to just use your quickness - to face stab somebody with a hidden weapon as a surprise. Not gaining surprise by being hidden, invisible, behind their back - just by quickness alone.
I really liked the idea of a random fishmongrel suddenly stabbiting somebody in the face, before they even react. Probably that just means in dd world he won an initiative.

Greenish
2010-08-24, 12:47 PM
I would say drawing the dagger in sight of the target starts the surprise round, so you can spend your standard to get one attack.Ah, that could be. For best effect, have Pounce. Full attack as a standard action. :smallamused:

Mongoose87
2010-08-24, 12:49 PM
Ah, that could be. For best effect, have Pounce. Full attack as a standard action. :smallamused:

Sorry, friend, Pounce gives you a full attack on charges, not standard actions.

jpreem
2010-08-24, 12:50 PM
To Mongoose. You mean the nr. 4 type?

Greenish
2010-08-24, 12:50 PM
Sorry, friend, Pounce gives you a full attack on charges, not standard actions.And you can Charge as a standard action on the surprise round, which I was speaking about.

KillianHawkeye
2010-08-24, 12:51 PM
The way I usually handle this situation (when the target is aware of the assassin) is to have them roll a Bluff check to get in a surprise round. I might give a bonus for having a hidden weapon (since the target will be more cautious around people carrying obvious weapons), but simply moving to draw your weapon should tip the target off that something is about to go down if you can't fool them, regardless of how fast you can do it. If you get the surprise round but don't have Quick Draw, you can't get to attack, but you can still draw your weapon while advancing (assuming your BAB is at least +1).

Again, that is just my house rules for that situation. I'm not completely sure how the RAW handles things.

dsmiles
2010-08-24, 12:52 PM
There used to be a feat that covered this...AFB, but I think it was in the Song and Silence or the Sword and Fist 3.0 splatbook.

hamishspence
2010-08-24, 12:53 PM
Complete Warrior (page 122) has a use of Sleight of Hand (that requires Quick Draw, and only works with daggers). You palm the dagger as a free action- make a Sleight of Hand check opposed by the target's Spot check, and if you win, your next single attack catches them flat-footed.

This can only be done once against a particular opponent in a combat though.

cZak
2010-08-24, 12:55 PM
I think this falls more in the realm of initiative and opposed skills.

Does the intended victim have the awareness & quickness of thought (spot the threat) and speed (dexterity/ initiative) to counter or protect itself?
- Lack of awareness could give the assassin a free attack (surprise round) before initiative is called.
- Going first means the victim is flat footed (denied dexterity) and subject to precision damage.

I guess this is why assassins, who utilize this method in their work, develop high ranks in bluff & sleight-o-hand skills, choose Improved initiative & Quick-draw feats and have the class ability to study their target for three rounds for potentially improved lethality.

Acting first in a combat situation has great benefits, especially for those who rely on precise damage; rogues, assassins, scouts, etc...


As a DM, I could see applying circumstance modifiers to the scenario dependent on the above.
Always reward clever players :smallcool:

jpreem
2010-08-24, 12:57 PM
MM yep maybe i could get a dm to rule in my favor that i can palm DAGGERS, shurikens and stuff like that. Palming small objects is exactly the thing sleight of hand is for.And if you have spent a feat on quickdraw then i think it would not be too much to ask to make some cool assassination attemtps like that :D

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-08-24, 12:59 PM
They've actually discovered that a person is quicker reacting to their opponent drawing than they are just deciding to draw on their opponent. It turns out whoever drew first was usually slower, and the one who drew second reacting to their opponent's action was the quicker of the two just because of that.

In terms of game mechanics, you could say the two opponents stare down the road at each other, each with an action readied to quick-draw and fire on the other. Whoever draws first gets interrupted by the other's readied action, so the second to draw turns out to be quicker. There's also rules in the Iaijutsu Focus skill in Oriental Adventures for quick-draw katana duels. In Tome of Battle it describes using the Intimidate skill to participate in a duel of wills just prior to combat, which can result in bonuses and penalties to attack and initiative rolls.

jpreem
2010-08-24, 01:00 PM
In this case they are not staring at each other. Before one guy draws the other has no idea he means any ill to him.

AmberVael
2010-08-24, 01:05 PM
The feat you're looking for is Flick of the Wrist, and it is in Complete Warrior.
You draw a weapon, the opponent is flat footed for the attack, you stab them. Handy for people who have sneak attack type stuff.

Combine it with the aforementioned Palm Dagger skill use (from the same book) that Hamish mentioned, and that's two tricks you've already got to catch someone flat footed, usable every combat. Use flanking, high initiative bonus, and getting sneak attack is going to be pretty simple (at least at lower levels).

I played a character based around things like this, and they were pretty fun.

ericgrau
2010-08-24, 01:06 PM
Without quick draw you spend the surprise round on the move action and must win initiative to get your sneak attack. Or, the common sense interpretation is he might see you drawing your weapon in time to react unless you do it in a flash.

Otherwise I'd say you always get a surprise round unless your opponent expects trouble. You could even have the weapon drawn already and not worry about drawing, but you're of course more likely to be suspected. Likewise a hidden weapon is less suspicious than a sheathed weapon, but then you usually take a move action to draw even with quick draw and you really need to be stealthy or have a high initiative to pull it off. Can't do a move action in plain sight without being seen.

Greenish
2010-08-24, 01:06 PM
The feat you're looking for is Flick of the Wrist, and it is in Complete Warrior.
You draw a weapon, the opponent is flat footed for the attack, you stab them. Handy for people who have sneak attack type stuff.There's also Hidden Blade skill trick.

jpreem
2010-08-24, 01:09 PM
It is quite common for me to have a somewhat restricted access to books outside of core.( And lots of DM-s I know dont like them) Also when they have things like quick draw and sleight of the hand skill to use for hiding weapons. It would be nice if i could muster somehting out of those two alone.
( somewhat of a problem of the DD system I think, ( the need to flip through a bunch of different ( and not free :P) books to find stuff ( and sometimes the extra feats or class features lets you do some rather ordinary stuff that in my opinion should be achievable otherwise) , still love the game and it is usually the most common to find a gaming group)
I've been thinking on GURPS or some free rpg-s maybe ill try to learn some and GM my own.

jpreem
2010-08-24, 01:15 PM
Sorry 'bout this self-derailment and discussion about game system and business model :D. Just thats a little explanation why im so keen on those two core features.
You are welcome to pont to skill tricks and feats and what not in other books though. Maybe i find somebody with the books and maybe i can convince my dm-s that they are alllright :D

Quietus
2010-08-24, 01:43 PM
Why would you not just have a guise that would sensibly have a weapon? A fishmonger's gonna have some kind of knife/blade on or near him, due to the whole "gut and scale" part of his business. The only thing worse than having a dagger suddenly appear in your forehead, is having a fishgut covered dagger suddenly appear in your forehead. Now your corpse smells!

Greenish
2010-08-24, 01:50 PM
For weapons you can carry out in the open, the ever-reliable, if somewhat clichéd swordcane (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a) is pretty nice.

Even more surprising would be just using your walking stick as a club.

Other such weapons include weighted sleeves and a razor scarf, both for I recall having seen D&D stats somewhere.

jpreem
2010-08-24, 01:56 PM
Yep thats an other thing I have considered. Daggers and sticks can be in plain sight and not considered a weapon.
I was just somewhat intrigued this - quick draw makes you retrieve a hidden weapon as a move action - thing.
As I posted in the beginning of the thread it surely makes you able to draw and use a hidden weapon in a combat round. But thats not as much of utility. The problem beingis that if you get a surprise round you only can have a standard action anyway - so i was disturbed that two features that thematically would really go well with this - sudden face stab - might not work out very well. To rule that surprise round starts after i have used my move action would thus be a great bonus :) Have to work my dm. :D

jpreem
2010-08-24, 02:01 PM
Also at Quietus - damn I just have to make a fish gutter assassin. A nice day at the market - then a fish gut covered knife is thrown at you or stabed in your face. Do you want fries with that :D

Diarmuid
2010-08-24, 03:09 PM
I think you're somewhat trying to put a round peg in a square hole.

The whole Sleight of Hand application for retrieving the hidden weapon I'm guessing wasnt intended for gaining a sneak attack, but more intended for when you wish to appear to be unarmed and then need to start shanking people, whether it be in a surprise or once entry to some restricted area has been garnered.

The idea being that hiding a weapon would involve quite a bit of folding/tucking/etc or whatever to hide said weapon and undoing that work takes a significant amount of work.

In many of the settings, walking around armed is not a big deal. Adventurers, caravan guards, nobles who want to look dandy with a fancy rapier...all of these are perfectly acceptable reasons to have a blade handy.

If the weapon is really that accessible then it's probably not really hidden all that well.

Quietus
2010-08-24, 10:15 PM
Also at Quietus - damn I just have to make a fish gutter assassin. A nice day at the market - then a fish gut covered knife is thrown at you or stabed in your face. Do you want fries with that :D

Hah, by all means. No one suspects the fishmonger!