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Algerin
2010-08-25, 09:53 PM
First off, I'm not here to defend it, I'm just curious.

Why do so many people find the Truenamer to be terrible? How should it have worked? And since I haven't actually seen the Truenamer class, how does it work?

Boci
2010-08-25, 09:55 PM
Mage that casts spells by making increasingly difficult skill checks. Requires stupid amounts of minimaxing to be able to reliably cast your spells even once, has quite a few restrictions, and can allow you to cast gate at will (one of the most broken spells in the game) in the 4th quarter of the game at will.

Zaydos
2010-08-25, 09:58 PM
It's a skill based spellcaster. They have to make a skill check to cast a spell and each time they do the DC goes up. The DC is based off of monster CR, and goes up faster than your bonus so that it is actually harder to use your spells at high level than low level. Also its spell selection is incredibly weak, usually not much better than a warlock's invocations (if not worse).

One truenamer fix I've used before and it worked okay (it was used for 1 or 2 sessions and it was a multiclass wizard/truenamer; he mainly functioned as a truenamer, though, and he managed to actually function) is: Kyeudo's http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120488

Greenish
2010-08-25, 09:58 PM
The skill check required to get use your utterances increases faster than your skill, so the class actually gets worse as you level. There are various fixes in the homebrew section.

JoshuaZ
2010-08-25, 09:59 PM
First off, I'm not here to defend it, I'm just curious.

Why do so many people find the Truenamer to be terrible? How should it have worked? And since I haven't actually seen the Truenamer class, how does it work?

Fluff was good. Implementation was very bad.

The primary mechanic involves using skill checks to do magic. Unfortunately, the required checks had DCs that grow way too fast so that the truenamer quickly becomes useless. Then at 20th level, due to poor editing and thinking, it becomes possible to have Gate at will. So the class is either ridiculously weak or ridiculously powerful. The section is also poorly edited so some Truenames don't even have associated DCs given and some of them have extremely unclear mechanics.

Jalor
2010-08-25, 10:02 PM
It receives a different sort of hate than classes like the Monk and CW Samurai, because it fails to function as intended. It's base mechanic was never playtested, let alone the class. It just doesn't work unless you raise your Truename skill to absurd levels, and there's so little material for it that there's really just one build to make it playable at all, even in a low-power game.

erikun
2010-08-25, 10:06 PM
Somebody had a thread about their experiences with a Truenamer, and would probably be able to answer your question the best.

In brief: Spells too weak, DCs scale to quickly, and the Law of Sequence. Truenamer utterances are generally far weaker or less useful than equal level magic. The DC of utterances scales by 2xCR, which basically forces you to get bonuses outside of skill ranks to affect anything as you go up in level. The Law of Sequence means that only one utterance can be active at one time, thus you cannot buff the entire party with a utterance - not even with something like Fly.

Here is the thread I was thinking about, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114269) if you are curious.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-25, 10:14 PM
In addition to Kyeudo's fix, which stays closer to the original mechanics of Truenaming, there's Kellus's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90961), which keeps the Truenamer fluff but throws out the mechanics altogether and starts over. Both are good, so I figure presenting both options is wise.

gnomas
2010-08-25, 10:20 PM
The basic idea behind the class (as I understand it) is that you activate your utterances (spell-like thingies) by making a skill check. The check DC is 15 + (2 x the target creature's CR).

The problem comes when you realize that to affect a CR 5 creature you need to make a check of 25. your bonus to this check is your ranks (level + 3 = 8) plus your ability modifier (let's pretend +5) for a total of +13. 25-13=12. 60% failure rate.

level 10:
+18 bonus
DC 35
must roll a 17. 85% of failure.

level 20.
+30 bonus maybe? (assuming stat increases or other bonuses, I just like round numbers)
DC 55
must roll a 25...

and the DC increases with each use.

(hope I got all that right)


As others have said, there are ways to min/max your skill bonus high enough for this to be possible, but that strikes me as far too much work for not a very good selection of abilities.

Tequila Sunrise
2010-08-25, 10:23 PM
How should it have worked?
Others have explained how and why the truenamer is fraked, so I'll just toss out how it should work. Instead of yet another skill, the truenaming check should be a class level check modified by Int. (With half your non-truenamer levels counting toward your bonus, as a bone thrown to multiclassers.) Instead of 15 + [2 times CR/level], the DC should be 10 + CR/level.

Not as elaborate or revolutionary as some of the home brew fixes, but it reflects how the class is supposed to work.

Noneoyabizzness
2010-08-25, 10:32 PM
pretty much as everyone said: that it is a great idea that needed to be homebrewed to even work somewhat effectively.


it's not so much a hate as a sad concerned sigh. binder works straight out of the box pretty well, as does shadow, so the idea truenamers had to get the short end of the functionality stick but the coolest concept makes people sad

to be fair to the book, binders do rock harder than expected.

BunnyMaster42
2010-08-25, 11:04 PM
I've always wondered, why not simply get yourself an item that grants a +30 competence bonus on truenaming? If I'm reading the SRD correctly, the price for such an item would be 90,000gp, or 36,000 if you decided to make it usable by truenamers only.

Sure, it isn't the most affordable sollution but it's worth it at the higher levels. Considering at level 20 you would only need to roll a 2 or more to affect a CR 20 creature, it seems pretty reasonable. Then add on top of that the other various ways you have to boost your truenaming skill and you should be good to go.

Granted at lower levels before you can afford the skill boosting item you'd be out of luck, but it's something at least.

Flickerdart
2010-08-25, 11:04 PM
The basic idea behind the class (as I understand it) is that you activate your utterances (spell-like thingies) by making a skill check. The check DC is 15 + (2 x the target creature's CR).

The problem comes when you realize that to affect a CR 5 creature you need to make a check of 25. your bonus to this check is your ranks (level + 3 = 8) plus your ability modifier (let's pretend +5) for a total of +13. 25-13=12. 60% failure rate.

level 10:
+18 bonus
DC 35
must roll a 17. 85% of failure.

level 20.
+30 bonus maybe? (assuming stat increases or other bonuses, I just like round numbers)
DC 55
must roll a 25...

and the DC increases with each use.

(hope I got all that right)


As others have said, there are ways to min/max your skill bonus high enough for this to be possible, but that strikes me as far too much work for not a very good selection of abilities.
There was a truenamer guide done long ago (this one (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872422/Truenamer_Optimization_Guide), not Solo's (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8270.0), though the latter is the more entertaining read) that had probabilities for truenames assuming the maximum possible squeeze. Because of items, the Truenamer's chance to succeed does grow, with a peak of 95% at two points in his life (assuming CR+3 enemy). It's just that, even after wasting most of your money to do this, Utterances are underwhelming. A 1st level Truenamer knows 1 utterance, and has a 55% chance of successfully using it once, then 45% the second time, and so on.

Zaydos
2010-08-25, 11:05 PM
I've always wondered, why not simply get yourself an item that grants a +30 competence bonus on truenaming? If I'm reading the SRD correctly, the price for such an item would be 90,000gp, or 36,000 if you decided to make it usable by truenamers only.

Sure, it isn't the most affordable sollution but it's worth it at the higher levels. Considering at level 20 you would only need to roll a 2 or more to affect a CR 20 creature, it seems pretty reasonable. Then add on top of that the other various ways you have to boost your truenaming skill and you should be good to go.

Granted at lower levels before you can afford the skill boosting item you'd be out of luck, but it's something at least.

Because that's a huge amount of wealth by level for the 90,000 GP version. Because most DMs will say "no" and not allow it.
Because even then most of the truenamer's abilities are still worse than a warlock's (except At-Will Gate that's just broken)

gorfnab
2010-08-25, 11:05 PM
{scrubbed}

Greenish
2010-08-25, 11:06 PM
I've always wondered, why not simply get yourself an item that grants a +30 competence bonus on truenaming? If I'm reading the SRD correctly, the price for such an item would be 90,000gp, or 36,000 if you decided to make it usable by truenamers only.If you can design any custom items you want, why not play a melee with permanent items of true strike & wraithstrike?

erikun
2010-08-25, 11:07 PM
I've always wondered, why not simply get yourself an item that grants a +30 competence bonus on truenaming? If I'm reading the SRD correctly, the price for such an item would be 90,000gp, or 36,000 if you decided to make it usable by truenamers only.

Sure, it isn't the most affordable sollution but it's worth it at the higher levels. Considering at level 20 you would only need to roll a 2 or more to affect a CR 20 creature, it seems pretty reasonable. Then add on top of that the other various ways you have to boost your truenaming skill and you should be good to go.

Granted at lower levels before you can afford the skill boosting item you'd be out of luck, but it's something at least.
It is kind of assumed that you are picking up the competence items, at least by anyone who is playing the classes. A CR 20 creature would be a DC55 check to affect, +2 for every use of the utterance that day. By then, you will have 24 ranks and around +10 from INT, pretty much requiring such an item. (Far more than that, if you've been through several encounters beforehand.)

Lans
2010-08-25, 11:13 PM
As others have said, there are ways to min/max your skill bonus high enough for this to be possible, but that strikes me as far too much work for not a very good selection of abilities.


Because the truenamers career would be based off of truenaming, I think skill focus and the Amulet of Silver tongue should be assumed. Which I think would be tier 5ish level of power.

Its still kind of high for what its effect is. Probably 25% for 5th and 10th and 65% at 20th.

This is still too high, and even worse leaves it in the DM screw territory. Can't get amulet? SOL

Not to mention boss type fights where the enemies CR is 5 higher.

Where it shines
If the DM likes sending many weak enemies against you. Nothing says bad ass like a guy who beats the crap out of enemies 7 CRs below him.
Buffing animal companions, they have a CR of - which means its a flat 15 to buff them. Sometimes the druid just doesn't wanna deal with fluffy when she's in heat.


DM allows custom items. An AMoST with an item that gives a +10 competence bonus costs just a little more than a +3 weapon. Or item familiar, because these things never cause problems.

When you wanna put in Twice Betrayer level of effort for maybe warblade level of power.

People help you make your checks. Remember aid other can give you +2, so just get 1 back up singer per level and you should be good.

Flickerdart
2010-08-25, 11:15 PM
It is kind of assumed that you are picking up the competence items, at least by anyone who is playing the classes. A CR 20 creature would be a DC55 check to affect, +2 for every use of the utterance that day. By then, you will have 24 ranks and around +10 from INT, pretty much requiring such an item. (Far more than that, if you've been through several encounters beforehand.)
You don't need it.
23 ranks
18 +2 (race) +5 (tome) +5 (stat boosts) +6 (item) = 36 INT, or +13
+10 Greater Amulet of the whatever it was (unless it was +15, I don't remember)
+2 masterwork tool
+3 skill focus
--
+51 to your skill check.

Greenish
2010-08-25, 11:16 PM
Sometimes the druid just doesn't wanna deal with fluffy when she's in heat.The images! They won't go away! :smalleek:

The Glyphstone
2010-08-25, 11:43 PM
People help you make your checks. Remember aid other can give you +2, so just get 1 back up singer per level and you should be good.

When you're adding Leadership to a character to actually benefit from the followers, you might be underpowered.:smallbiggrin:

Kyeudo
2010-08-25, 11:57 PM
Because the truenamers career would be based off of truenaming, I think skill focus and the Amulet of Silver tongue should be assumed. Which I think would be tier 5ish level of power.

The "required" list of items and feats for any class should be no longer than the list for the Fighter and probably only as long as the wizard. That means boosters for casting stats and such, not boosters for the ability to cast. Wizards don't need an item that boosts their caster level by 10 to be effective, so Truenamers should have been designed the same way.

Innis Cabal
2010-08-26, 12:05 AM
If you can design any custom items you want, why not play a melee with permanent items of true strike & wraithstrike?

Nothing. It's completly acceptable by the rules.

Wings of Peace
2010-08-26, 12:12 AM
Contrary to what most people claim, Truenamers are actually one of the strongest classes in the game. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8270.0)

Additionally,

Nothing. It's completly acceptable by the rules.

True Strike only affects your NEXT attack. This means that even if it's on a permanent item that item loses all usefulness after your next attack roll.

Wings of Peace
2010-08-26, 12:15 AM
--Self Scrubbed for being superfluous--

Ozymandias9
2010-08-26, 12:19 AM
The "required" list of items and feats for any class should be no longer than the list for the Fighter and probably only as long as the wizard. That means boosters for casting stats and such, not boosters for the ability to cast. Wizards don't need an item that boosts their caster level by 10 to be effective, so Truenamers should have been designed the same way.

I certainly wouldn't peg wizard as the aim for any class. If we look at what we can reasonably gather from the design intent for the truenamer, we're probably looking at magic that is less powerful because its less reliable. In the abstract, this is one of the big tricks you can use to bring casters down to the level of melee.

Fundamentally, I don't think 50% (and even the diminishing returns) would be a bad place to aim for except for the fact that every other caster in the game has a 100% chance. The utterance selection is also incredibly lackluster in comparison with the fully expanded spell lists of most casters.

While I haven't tested it, I imagine that true-naming will is in a similar situation to 3.0 psionics: it will probably work significantly better as a full replacement for the other magic systems than as a supplemental option.

Innis Cabal
2010-08-26, 12:29 AM
Contrary to what most people claim, Truenamers are actually one of the strongest classes in the game. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8270.0)

Additionally,


True Strike only affects your NEXT attack. This means that even if it's on a permanent item that item loses all usefulness after your next attack roll.

That dosn't change it not being possible.

Wings of Peace
2010-08-26, 12:34 AM
That dosn't change it not being possible.

Very true, I was more so responding to the "Why not?" part of the question.

Defiant
2010-08-26, 12:51 AM
I've always wondered, why not simply get yourself an item that grants a +30 competence bonus on truenaming? If I'm reading the SRD correctly, the price for such an item would be 90,000gp, or 36,000 if you decided to make it usable by truenamers only.

Sure, it isn't the most affordable sollution but it's worth it at the higher levels. Considering at level 20 you would only need to roll a 2 or more to affect a CR 20 creature, it seems pretty reasonable. Then add on top of that the other various ways you have to boost your truenaming skill and you should be good to go.

Granted at lower levels before you can afford the skill boosting item you'd be out of luck, but it's something at least.

Agreed. I never understood why the DC is too high when you can just buy these items... it's as if it was made with this idea in mind.


Because that's a huge amount of wealth by level for the 90,000 GP version.

Well what else are you going to invest for your truenamer? Besides, the idea is to slowly upgrade your Bonus-To-Skill item as you level up and get more gold - this way you stay ahead of the difficulty curve.


Because most DMs will say "no" and not allow it.

That's not a valid retort. This class was basically made for use of such a magic item. For a DM to say no, he might as well just say no to the truenamer class. Doesn't make it any more right.


Because even then most of the truenamer's abilities are still worse than a warlock's (except At-Will Gate that's just broken)

Perhaps, but it can at least be competent at what it does.

Kyeudo
2010-08-26, 12:57 AM
I certainly wouldn't peg wizard as the aim for any class. If we look at what we can reasonably gather from the design intent for the truenamer, we're probably looking at magic that is less powerful because its less reliable. In the abstract, this is one of the big tricks you can use to bring casters down to the level of melee.


I think you missed my point. I was talking about magic item dependance. The Fighter is one of the most item dependant classes in the game, while the Wizard is one of the least. I was talking about how a class shouldn't be assumed to have sunk 80% of its WBL allowance into not sucking.

A Truenamer, at lvl 20, is assumed to have done the following:

Started with at least an 18 Intelligence
Put every Attribute increase into Int.
Maxed out his Truespeak skill
Taken Skill Focus (Truespeak)
Acquired a Headband of Intellect +6
Acquired an Amulet of the Silver Tongue +10
Gained a +5 inherent bonus to Int. i.e. five Wishes cast in succession or an expensive Tome.

After doing all this, he is able to use his abilities against CR equivalent targets 75% of the time for the first attempt of the day, declining rapidly thereafter.

On the other hand, a Wizard, at level 20, is assumed to have done the following:

Started with at least a 15 Intelligence
Put every Attribute increase into Int.
Not lost his spellbook.

By doing this, he has the ability to warp reality to his whim 100% of the time. Should he invest in a Headband of Intellect or other magic items to supplement his casting, he can warp reality more often, in the form of bonus spells, and more potently, as represented by higher saving throws.

This is actually how they "balanced" the Truenamer, as far as the math they used for their Truespeak DCs evidences.

Flickerdart
2010-08-26, 12:57 AM
Perhaps, but it can at least be competent at what it does.
Read Zaq's notes on playing a Truenamer. He had no trouble meeting his DCs, even with the +20 from Quicken, due to book dredging skills - and still only had fun "not because of the class, but despite it". The Truenamer is only competent in the sense that the Monk and CW Samurai are. The minimal sense.

Ozymandias9
2010-08-26, 02:13 AM
I think you missed my point. I was talking about magic item dependance. The Fighter is one of the most item dependant classes in the game, while the Wizard is one of the least. I was talking about how a class shouldn't be assumed to have sunk 80% of its WBL allowance into not sucking.

A Truenamer, at lvl 20, is assumed to have done the following:

Started with at least an 18 Intelligence
Put every Attribute increase into Int.
Maxed out his Truespeak skill
Taken Skill Focus (Truespeak)
Acquired a Headband of Intellect +6
Acquired an Amulet of the Silver Tongue +10
Gained a +5 inherent bonus to Int. i.e. five Wishes cast in succession or an expensive Tome.

After doing all this, he is able to use his abilities against CR equivalent targets 75% of the time for the first attempt of the day, declining rapidly thereafter.

On the other hand, a Wizard, at level 20, is assumed to have done the following:

Started with at least a 15 Intelligence
Put every Attribute increase into Int.
Not lost his spellbook.

By doing this, he has the ability to warp reality to his whim 100% of the time. Should he invest in a Headband of Intellect or other magic items to supplement his casting, he can warp reality more often, in the form of bonus spells, and more potently, as represented by higher saving throws.

This is actually how they "balanced" the Truenamer, as far as the math they used for their Truespeak DCs evidences.

Yes, and my point is that all of that WBL expenditure is a tool to move a truenamer closer to that 100%, which is only really a goal if you're inherently trying to compete directly with something like a wizard. And, if anything, I think the wizard should have to spend more gold than it does.

Yes the DC scales too high even if you're aiming for 50% first attempt, but in the absence of other casting systems 50% isn't an inherently unreasonable goal if you're trying to make a casting system in line with things like fighter and rogue (or a monk or CW Samurai). If anything, a lower number might be in order. And if you are looking at 50%, it requires far less WBL expenditure.

If the basic goal of designing a skill based system is to make it less reliable, then presuming that the desired balance point is as close to 100% reliable as possible probably isn't sound.

Aharon
2010-08-26, 03:36 AM
Truenamers are decent from level 11 onwards if you are willing to use Polymorph Cheese: One of the creatures in the Truenaming section has the racial ability to always make its truenaming checks. Those abilities are conferred with polymorph, so you never need to think about your actual ability again.

There are a few other cheesy exploits, which are found here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8489.0). It's basically the guide mentioned earlier by Flickerdart, with a few additions.

lord_khaine
2010-08-26, 04:51 AM
There is this interesting handbook that can help you build a Truenamer that can potentially work: The Tao of Truenaming

{scrubbed}

Draxar
2010-08-26, 07:41 AM
What people have been saying about the brokeness and required twinking for truenaming is definitely the case. It does, however, have a few benefits.

Assuming you can pile on the skill items, you can get quite a lot of uses/day, as each new level gives you at least one new utterance. The word of nurturing utterances let you be a reasonably effective out-of-combat healer Knowing about monsters – with all knowledges on your skill list, high Int, and the ability to add another +10 on top of that mean you're good at IDing monsters, and work well with Knowledge Devotion While your combat powers are lacklustre, there isn't a tradeoff between using them and using utility powers in the same way that there is for prepared spell/spell slot casters With Quicken Utterance, if you can reach the required DC, you can attempt to fire off a quickened Utterance every round, without losing anything but the swift actions you're spending – if you fail the roll, the Utterance doesn't take effect, but it doesn't increase the DC of your next attempt

I think the whole "A warlocks powers are better and he can do them all day" thing is one of the key issues here – while you have more powers, they're just plain not good enough. You want stuff that's vaugely on a level with the Tome of Battle effects, as you're having to succeed a roll to get it off, and you have limitations on how often you can use it (raising DCs, law of sequence)

Zaydos
2010-08-26, 07:51 AM
The problem isn't "wizards are better" it's "Tier 4 (maybe 5) is better." Only real advantage you have over anyone is that you can use Word of Nurturing to keep people healed, but doing so raises the DC sky high. Even a Dragon Shaman with the healing aura to get people to half health is about as good at out of combat healing as you (you aren't limited to half health, but will eventually fail). The utterances need to be made better and you have to be able to use your abilities without custom item cheese (the amulet of the silver tongue only being +10 shows that +30 custom items were not their intent; and that just opens the door to +30 Diplomacy items) or item familiars.

Kyeudo
2010-08-26, 11:05 AM
If the basic goal of designing a skill based system is to make it less reliable, then presuming that the desired balance point is as close to 100% reliable as possible probably isn't sound.

If your magic is unreliable, you should have compensation. You should have more powerful or more interesting effects availible. You should have tricks other classes can't replicate. Truenamers don't.

I would posit that the original goal was to have the Truenamer close to auto-succeed the first few times a day. Every utterance after that, though, would essentially be a "bonus" utterance, similar to how optimizing casting and your primary stat gets you bonus spells. Somewhere along the line, however, someone said "What's the point of a DC you never fail?", followed by someone forgetting the Law of Resistance.

Magic gear beyond the basics (resistance cloak, stat boosters, AC boosters) should be for customizing your character and making him better at what he does, not required to actually function in a reasonable manner.

InkEyes
2010-08-26, 12:04 PM
Yes, and my point is that all of that WBL expenditure is a tool to move a truenamer closer to that 100%, which is only really a goal if you're inherently trying to compete directly with something like a wizard. And, if anything, I think the wizard should have to spend more gold than it does.

The Truenamer's not just competing with the Wizard, it's competing with every spellcaster, manifester, martial adept, and invoker in the game (plus anyone who can use a magic wand). The Truenamer is a luck-based caster in a world where no one else has to make a skill check to function. Paladins don't need to fight against their own magic system to heal their allies, and Wu-Jen don't have to worry about succeeding at casting a spell only to have an enemy make its save against it.


Yes the DC scales too high even if you're aiming for 50% first attempt, but in the absence of other casting systems 50% isn't an inherently unreasonable goal if you're trying to make a casting system in line with things like fighter and rogue (or a monk or CW Samurai). If anything, a lower number might be in order. And if you are looking at 50%, it requires far less WBL expenditure.

See, the problem is that wealth expenditure is used to make the class actually work. If a person was trying out D&D for the first time and wanted to play the truenamer, they wouldn't be able to actually play. They might still have fun roleplaying, but any time combat rolled around they'd just sit in the back and fail 90% of their skill checks. That's not fair to any new player, or even to experienced players who don't read forums and just want to try a new casting system.

There are plenty of casting classes that play nice with tier 4 and 5; it's not a chance of NOT BEING ABLE TO DO ANYTHING that makes a spellcaster a better match for a rouge or a fighter, it's spell list that lacks the ability to perfectly mimic whole classes and a stricter limit on spells known that makes a caster weaker.


If the basic goal of designing a skill based system is to make it less reliable, then presuming that the desired balance point is as close to 100% reliable as possible probably isn't sound.

Truenamers aren't a class designed for 3.5 D&D play. A skill-based caster class would be awesome in a game with more risk; perhaps a Call of Cthulhu game or something else where chance and tension mesh well together. It's out of place in a game where all the casters before it never had a problem with making extraordinary effects happen in six seconds.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-26, 01:20 PM
Yes, and my point is that all of that WBL expenditure is a tool to move a truenamer closer to that 100%, which is only really a goal if you're inherently trying to compete directly with something like a wizard. And, if anything, I think the wizard should have to spend more gold than it does.

Yes the DC scales too high even if you're aiming for 50% first attempt, but in the absence of other casting systems 50% isn't an inherently unreasonable goal if you're trying to make a casting system in line with things like fighter and rogue (or a monk or CW Samurai). If anything, a lower number might be in order. And if you are looking at 50%, it requires far less WBL expenditure.

If the basic goal of designing a skill based system is to make it less reliable, then presuming that the desired balance point is as close to 100% reliable as possible probably isn't sound.
A class that with moderate optimization fails 50% of the time or more - to begin with, and gets worse from there - is poorly designed, even if it was competing only with Fighters, Monks, and CW Samurai.

DragonsAion
2010-08-26, 01:32 PM
Has anyone tryed any of these to see if they would be decent fixes?

-True Speak DC being 15+1 1/5 x CR

-Giving the truenamer a bonus equal to half his level to his truespeak checks.

-and then making it that so that instead of the DC going up with the number of times an utterances is used per "Day" make it so that it goes up with the number of times it is used on one monster and then have it reset when you target a new monster.

Ozymandias9
2010-08-26, 01:39 PM
Truenamers aren't a class designed for 3.5 D&D play. A skill-based caster class would be awesome in a game with more risk; perhaps a Call of Cthulhu game or something else where chance and tension mesh well together. It's out of place in a game where all the casters before it never had a problem with making extraordinary effects happen in six seconds.

Thus my point that they probably work better if the True-naming system is used to fully replace other magic systems than to stand along side it.

If it weren't competing with 100% success rates, do you really think that the much lamented difficulty in reaching high success rates would be a problem?

And it's entirely possible to play D&D and say the only casting system is Truespeak. You can do the same with Psionics or shadow magic.


A class that with moderate optimization fails 50% of the time or more - to begin with, and gets worse from there - is poorly designed, even if it was competing only with Fighters, Monks, and CW Samurai.

I disagree, but am interested to know if you would feel the same way about a higher percentage.

Fundamentally, if you don't want a significant chance of failure, then check based casting isn't for you. But if it's a matter of simply needing a higher success rate, where should it start and how quickly should it diminish?

JaronK
2010-08-26, 01:59 PM
My solution would be to make Truename Checks be Truenamer level + Int bonus + 1d20, and then adjust the DCs so that the first check against an even CR opponent succeeds on a 1 (and exactly a 1) at a reasonable degree of Int optimization. Since int can't be optimized nearly as much as skill checks (and is generally hard to raise by a huge amount without polymorph cheese) there are far fewer variables and you can set things a lot better.

JaronK

InkEyes
2010-08-26, 03:05 PM
Thus my point that they probably work better if the True-naming system is used to fully replace other magic systems than to stand along side it.

If it weren't competing with 100% success rates, do you really think that the much lamented difficulty in reaching high success rates would be a problem?

And it's entirely possible to play D&D and say the only casting system is Truespeak. You can do the same with Psionics or shadow magic.

I'd think if Truespeak were the only magic system in D&D, people would probably still complain since its chancy nature feels out of place in a heroic fantasy game. But I guess if it was the only magic system, there would be next to no magic items and rare healing, so maybe it wouldn't be a heroic fantasy anymore. It also wouldn't be D&D.

This is a class made for Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 Edition. When put next to other classes from 3.5, it's bad. It too bad to deserve hate, it's just sad. If you bent reality to make it so that this class was never in a game with spellcasters that can do something 100% of the time, no, there would not be a problem. It's not, so there is. Ignore the class, fix it, or build a new system around it, but in the game it was designed for it's a bad class.

Hell, play it if you want, I might play it some time (I like the flavor). I'd use a fix for it, but I'd play it. The overreaching thing wrong with it is it's a textbook example of the shoddy creative process Wizards used for 3rd edition.

DragonsAion
2010-08-26, 03:26 PM
is there any other skill based magic system you could use for it to make it work? i know BESM D20 had a skill based caster in it.

Ravens_cry
2010-08-26, 03:40 PM
I think the hate comes from the sheer AWESOME flavour, like something very old and potent, mythic and epic in scope.
It feels like something out of the fabulous Earthsea Trilogy, or "The Word made flesh", the first Magic.
And the result? A class that goes beyond disappointing.
Rather sad, actually.

Kyeudo
2010-08-26, 03:50 PM
is there any other skill based magic system you could use for it to make it work? i know BESM D20 had a skill based caster in it.

Most of what it needs to contribute is a revised equation for its Truespeak DCs and some more level-appropriate utterances to choose from. I'd suggest looking at the fix in my sig for an example.

Algerin
2010-08-26, 04:00 PM
Wow, lots of replies on this one.

So the basic gist of it is that they actually have to pass a skill check to cast their spells, but that most of the spells aren,t that spectacular, and the DC to succeed at the skill check goes up faster then you can increase it without expensive magical items?

Zaydos
2010-08-26, 04:05 PM
Wow, lots of replies on this one.

So the basic gist of it is that they actually have to pass a skill check to cast their spells, but that most of the spells aren,t that spectacular, and the DC to succeed at the skill check goes up faster then you can increase it without expensive magical items?

Yes. And there's a character limit on these forums.

Greenish
2010-08-26, 04:11 PM
Wow, lots of replies on this one.

So the basic gist of it is that they actually have to pass a skill check to cast their spells, but that most of the spells aren,t that spectacular, and the DC to succeed at the skill check goes up faster then you can increase it without expensive magical items?That, and as has been pointed out, "hate" isn't quite the term.

DragonsAion
2010-08-26, 04:20 PM
sorry, but I would like know how the following changes would work.

Has anyone tryed any of these to see if they would be decent fixes?

-True Speak DC being 15+1 1/5 x CR

-Giving the truenamer a bonus equal to half his level to his truespeak checks.

-and then making it that so that instead of the DC going up with the number of times an utterances is used per "Day" make it so that it goes up with the number of times it is used in one encouter and then have it reset.

Caphi
2010-08-26, 04:23 PM
sorry, but I would like know how the following changes would work.

Has anyone tryed any of these to see if they would be decent fixes?

-True Speak DC being 15+1 1/5 x CR

-Giving the truenamer a bonus equal to half his level to his truespeak checks.

-and then making it that so that instead of the DC going up with the number of times an utterances is used per "Day" make it so that it goes up with the number of times it is used in one encouter and then have it reset.

I'm sure the thread heard you the first time.

Kyeudo
2010-08-26, 04:35 PM
sorry, but I would like know how the following changes would work.

Has anyone tryed any of these to see if they would be decent fixes?

-True Speak DC being 15+1 1/5 x CR


Doing fractional multiplication at the table is not a smart idea. Remember: K.I.S.S. I think that DC would be low enough to end up with functionally at-will abilities.



-Giving the truenamer a bonus equal to half his level to his truespeak checks.


The system was actually written so that non-Truenamers could actually get some benefit from dabbling in the system. This one would probably allow the Truenamer to pretty much use his abilities at-will, but anyone who is not a Truenamer would still be crippled.



-and then making it that so that instead of the DC going up with the number of times an utterances is used per "Day" make it so that it goes up with the number of times it is used in one encouter and then have it reset.

Hello all day flight, all day haste, never-ending fast healing, Gate-spam (even harder than now), etc.

Greenish
2010-08-26, 04:39 PM
Hello all day flight, all day haste, never-ending fast healing, Gate-spam (even harder than now), etc.The funny thing is, except for Gate it would still be pretty weaksauce class.

Kyeudo
2010-08-26, 04:52 PM
The funny thing is, except for Gate it would still be pretty weaksauce class.

There are some gems in there. I think it would definately overtake the Warlock in power, since the Truenamer has no-save debuffs that hurt.

Lans
2010-08-26, 05:33 PM
The funny thing is, except for Gate it would still be pretty weaksauce class.

Their are choices from that lexicon of each level that are pretty good. Solid fog, control winds. Not great but good.

Ozymandias9
2010-08-26, 10:31 PM
It also wouldn't be D&D.

See, that's fundamentally where I disagree. You can have low-magic D&D, high-magic D&D, arcane-only D&D, psionics-only D&D, horror D&D (the list goes on)... and still have it fundamentally be D&D. There are other systems better suited to many of these concepts, but 3.5 can execute them functionally. Blanket inclusion is an option, but not the only option.

One of the defining traits of the Tome of Magic systems is that they all attempted to present casting systems more in line with melee. Doing that and at the same time allowing core casting is a fundamentally contradictory. They made an effort at making it passable (because WOTC requires full-inclusion to be presented as the default option), but--as a point of design-- if one of the goals is having a magic system with a significant and increasing failure rate, it will probably not be desirable to have it have it compare equitably to the core casting system.

InkEyes
2010-08-27, 12:33 PM
One of the defining traits of the Tome of Magic systems is that they all attempted to present casting systems more in line with melee.

I just wanted to bump this thread because I want an answer to this: where exactly did Wizards of the Coast ever say they made Tome of Magic with the intention of providing casters in line with "melee"? What does that even mean? The Tome of Battle classes are melee fighters; the Barbarian and Ranger are meleers too, but they're not as bad as the Fighter.

I know it's funny to jokingly speculate the ToM was made for tier 5 and the ToB was made for tier 3, but why would Wizards release the Binder in the book then? It's easily tier 3, and the Shadowcaster is somewhere around tier 4 (but could bump up a half tier or more with slightly more spells/day). Yet, the Truenamer isn't capable of making the tier list because it doesn't work on its own. Was Truenaming the only one that's supposed to be bad? If that's the case, why didn't they playtest it to make sure it was tier 5? If they did surely the glaring flaws in the class would become apparent. It doesn't take much to fix either; even removing the "2" from the 2*CR+15 equation gives the class legs to stand on.

The ToB manages to have have good characters because it has a unified "casting" system with the Sublime Way. If I had to take a serious stab at what Wizards intended for the ToM, I'd guess they wanted it to be an exact mirror to ToB, tier 3 classes and all. For some reason, they were divided on what new casting system to provide for the book, so they threw three classes with completely separate mechanics and spread themselves too thin. The Expanded Psionics Hanbook and Magic of Incarnum both manage to be excellent books with mostly great classes and alternate casting systems. The Tome of Magic is an assortment of scrapped casting systems WotC probably couldn't flesh out to full books.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-27, 12:48 PM
Yes, and my point is that all of that WBL expenditure is a tool to move a truenamer closer to that 100%, which is only really a goal if you're inherently trying to compete directly with something like a wizard. And, if anything, I think the wizard should have to spend more gold than it does.

Yes the DC scales too high even if you're aiming for 50% first attempt, but in the absence of other casting systems 50% isn't an inherently unreasonable goal if you're trying to make a casting system in line with things like fighter and rogue (or a monk or CW Samurai). If anything, a lower number might be in order. And if you are looking at 50%, it requires far less WBL expenditure.

If the basic goal of designing a skill based system is to make it less reliable, then presuming that the desired balance point is as close to 100% reliable as possible probably isn't sound.

So, you're saying that if no other casters existed, the truenamer would still be filled with fail, but in comparison, it wouldn't be quite so horrifically bad?

While true, I don't think this really excuses the design in any way.

Zaydos
2010-08-27, 12:58 PM
The point of ToM was to put in new forms of magic to supplement or replace the standard D&D magic system. So much of the fluff on both Binder and Shadowcaster is their interaction with the standard system of magic. Truenamers? They have some spells in the back, but unlike the other two are really a fundamentally different magical principle. Pact magic, as presented, is simply another special technique and not an underlying basic form of magic. Shadow magic is supposed to be a shadow, or counterpart, to normal magic; mirroring it to a large extent. Truename magic? Is an underlying and core form of magic and normally, fluff-wise, is the main one when used. You can fluff normal Vancian casting as using true names, add a verbal component to every spell and disallow silencing them and you're done. Except in a lot of true name magic stories it's usable at will (in some it is draining which would put a daily limit on it and make a spell point or sorcerous casting system work), but it never exists along with more traditional daily casting. The other two are alternate power sources, truename magic is a different magical paradigm to begin with.

As for the balance issue? I think they were aiming at tier 3 with all of them and just kind of messed up. You can tell there is an attempt to make them weaker than Core wizards and sorcerers just from the basic stats, but they just didn't think things through well.

DeltaEmil
2010-08-27, 01:26 PM
Isn't one of the problems being the challenge rating clause? I mean, there are monsters that are absolutely worthless for their CR, and there others that have auto-win abilities. And CR is not exactly calculated, but guesstimated by the devolopers. So perhaps a different take is needed than something that is purely random.

Ozymandias9
2010-08-27, 01:33 PM
So, you're saying that if no other casters existed, the truenamer would still be filled with fail, but in comparison, it wouldn't be quite so horrifically bad?

While true, I don't think this really excuses the design in any way.

That's my point, I don't see it as inherently "filled with fail." I don't see a 50% fail rate as a flaw, I see it as a feature.
Unreliably magic is something I actually desire in a lot of settings.


I just wanted to bump this thread because I want an answer to this: where exactly did Wizards of the Coast ever say they made Tome of Magic with the intention of providing casters in line with "melee"? What does that even mean? The Tome of Battle classes are melee fighters; the Barbarian and Ranger are meleers too, but they're not as bad as the Fighter.


They never said it, but the structure heavily implies it. I don't think they were aiming specifically for tier 5 as an editorial position, but because of the point in the development cycle and the design elements, I think it's fair to say that the designers of each of the systems were looking for something significantly more conservative than Vancian casting.

The other two options are certainly more interoperable (and that is a quite impressive on the part of their designers). But if you've gone out of your way to use a conservative option, using the most liberally powered option available alongside it is, frankly, mindboggling to me.

Kyeudo
2010-08-27, 02:22 PM
Isn't one of the problems being the challenge rating clause? I mean, there are monsters that are absolutely worthless for their CR, and there others that have auto-win abilities. And CR is not exactly calculated, but guesstimated by the devolopers. So perhaps a different take is needed than something that is purely random.

Actually, CR is probably the best thing to base the DCs off of. Hit Dice, Ability Scores, and other monster statistics vary wildly across level appropriate encounters, but CR stays the same. Yes, there are many monsters who are off CRed, but they are usually not radically off. Those monsters are just a little easier or harder than normal to truename.

Zaq
2010-08-27, 02:29 PM
And once again, the majority (not all) of the discussion misses the point. I should just get a .txt file of this to copy-paste when I need to.

The insane DCs (and they're insane in several ways, not the least of which is turning CR into a die-affecting game mechanic. Hope you're good at accurately assessing the power of your homebrew monsters BEFORE the party fights them, GMs!) are only the first part of the Truenamer's problems.

The bigger problem is that most of their abilities just. Aren't. That. Good. I'm not asking for power on par with 9th level casters... but T3 would be nice. There are very few utterances that actually end up being worth it on their own. I will not lie... there are some gems. Greater Speed of the Zephyr is awesome, Magic Contraction makes your already powerful allies even more powerful (though it doesn't help your non-caster friends much), and Hidden Truth makes you an excellent party encyclopedia. Oh, and the various Words of Nurturing are good HP refillers, like having a Wand of Lesser Vigor on tap. On the whole, though, utterances just don't measure up to what, say, invocations can do, or maneuvers, or soulmelds, or whatever. (This is excluding utterances that are only useful due to shenanigans, like Spell Rebirth, Archer's Eye, or Greater Energy Negation. Even then, those are mostly curiosities rather than actual powerful abilities, more often than not.)

There's also the Law of Sequence. Everyone gets all worked up about the Law of Resistance, but the LoS is a much bigger pain in the ass. Even if you just focus on your small subset of utterances that are actually worthwhile, you can't just keep using them, because they have to run out before you can recast them. Pun-Pun forbid that you should, say, want to make TWO allies fly at the same time, or that you should want to both apply Haste to your buddy and Slow to your target. Sometimes you can take redundant utterances to skirt around this, but the very fact that you HAVE to is insulting.

Utterances do really fail to get better as you increase in level, as well. Allow me to supply an anecdote. I retired my Truenamer about eight or nine months ago, where he was level 12. My GM recently told me that he wants the group to bring back some of our retired characters (including my 'namer), leveled up to 15 and given fun new toys to play with, for a one-shot. I am strongly considering going Tome of Battle. No joke. Given the 1/2 initiator level mechanic, I'm honestly beginning to feel that I would get more out of going Warblade or Swordsage than I would out of advancing my truenaming. This is despite the fact that I would have access to level 5 utterances... the second-highest level. This is theoretically the equivalent of 7th or 8th level spells, or something like that. I'm honestly thinking that it's not worth it to take those levels. I haven't made my decision yet, but the fact that I even have to think about it... well, it says something, I think.

The stupid skill-based casting system is only the beginning. There's so much more wrong with the Truenamer than just the DCs they have to hit for their class features to kick in. I mean, honestly, if the problem were only the Truespeak DCs, it wouldn't be a terrible class. It wouldn't be a GOOD class, and it would be a horrible example of game design, but people would still be able to beat it into shape and use it. They don't. It's just not worth it. What you get for your efforts isn't really enough to make your game experience fun. The fun I had with my truenamer came 100% from the character, not from his abilities.

DementedFellow
2010-08-27, 02:31 PM
Buffing animal companions, they have a CR of - which means its a flat 15 to buff them. Sometimes the druid just doesn't wanna deal with fluffy when she's in heat.


Actually, it's CR or HD if CR isn't available. So that 15 HD animal companion you're trying to buff will be a great deal harder to buff than you might realize.

Lans
2010-08-27, 11:36 PM
Actually, it's CR or HD if CR isn't available. So that 15 HD animal companion you're trying to buff will be a great deal harder to buff than you might realize.
Its only HD for PCs for all other situations it uses CR.

As for the design of truenamers I think they only tested it to level 10, and they included the amulet in there calculations. When your target number is 35 there is a huge gulf between 16 ranks +skill focus and 26 that the amulet would give.

For law of sequence, remember that you can heighten one of your utterances to have 2 up at the same time. Most likely the product of bad wording, but no more than the rest of the class.

Gametime
2010-08-28, 10:00 AM
Its only HD for PCs for all other situations it uses CR.



This is a pretty minor nitpick, compared to all the others problems the class has, but this is one thing I hate about the Truenamer. Having "PC" and "CR" and whatnot be prescriptive mechanics, instead of descriptive, bothers me no end, and the idea that a PC and an NPC could have the exact same stats but different Truespeak DCs (through LA, for example) is just bizarre.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-28, 10:15 AM
That's my point, I don't see it as inherently "filled with fail." I don't see a 50% fail rate as a flaw, I see it as a feature.
Unreliably magic is something I actually desire in a lot of settings.

But it's not a 50% failure rate. It's a failure rate that starts off low, and gets worse and worse. The more powerful you get, the more you fail.

I can see a wild mage like mechanic if you want to add variability to a casting class. That's perfectly reasonable. Truenaming is nothing like that.

Tar Palantir
2010-08-28, 10:25 AM
That's my point, I don't see it as inherently "filled with fail." I don't see a 50% fail rate as a flaw, I see it as a feature.
Unreliably magic is something I actually desire in a lot of settings.


And I'd agree with you, if the abilities you were attempting to use were in fact any good. You can count the number of genuinely useful utterances on your fingers, and you'll only need a second hand if you're feeling generous. I have no problem with risky but potent magic, or even risky but useful, but when I succeed and the result is hardly more potent than a melee attack, I begin to wonder why my powers aren't at least as reliable as melee attacks.

Yora
2010-08-28, 10:31 AM
it's not so much a hate as a sad concerned sigh.
We pitty da fool... :smallfrown:

Doug Lampert
2010-08-28, 10:52 AM
This is a pretty minor nitpick, compared to all the others problems the class has, but this is one thing I hate about the Truenamer. Having "PC" and "CR" and whatnot be prescriptive mechanics, instead of descriptive, bothers me no end, and the idea that a PC and an NPC could have the exact same stats but different Truespeak DCs (through LA, for example) is just bizarre.

They already qualified for Epic Feats at different levels in 3.5 IIRC. LA doesn't count for anything but advancement, but you qualify for epic at ECL 21 so LA DOES count for something other than advancement.

Lans
2010-08-28, 05:31 PM
This is a pretty minor nitpick, compared to all the others problems the class has, but this is one thing I hate about the Truenamer. Having "PC" and "CR" and whatnot be prescriptive mechanics, instead of descriptive, bothers me no end, and the idea that a PC and an NPC could have the exact same stats but different Truespeak DCs (through LA, for example) is just bizarre.
I don't have a problem with them being prescriptive, its been that way since blaspemy.

If the PCs truly are special it may make some sense. A dragon is a dragon who doesn't change much for years even centuries. Same thing for outsiders, giants and what not.

PCs go from having to team up to take out a goblin to being able to solo a nest of half dragon giants in under a year in a lot of campaigns. Then they crash and burn and become monsters for the next group of PCs.