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Tyndmyr
2010-08-28, 10:34 PM
Aright, Im curious as to how far a projectile can be fired in D&D.

Obviously, cragtop archer is a given, at least for 4 levels. That gives us 15 range increments with no attack reduction. Next up, we'll want the ranged weapon with the biggest increment. Repeating Heavy Crossbow is 120 feet. Anything longer? This puts us at 1800 feet, which isn't bad, but Im certain more has to be possible.

Distance is a +1 enchantment from MiC, and doubles the range increment. Presumably you can't get it multiple times. This gets us to 3600 feet, which is fairly respectable.

Any other sources of distance boosting for the true hail mary shot?

Zom B
2010-08-28, 10:47 PM
Across infinite distances. Deities and Demigods, I believe, had a power where the god could see any distance, even as far as other planes. Somewhere (I thought Epic but I thought wrong it seems), there's an ability that says something like "If you can see a spot, you can shoot at it." It may also be a divine power.

EDIT: It's a divine power called Divine Archery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineArchery). I'm having trouble finding the first power, but either way, a deity can see for miles without any other powers.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-28, 10:49 PM
Hmm, lets go with longest pre-epic, then, as yeah, epic/divine ranks tend to make the rules go a bit wonky. Good find, though.

Hirax
2010-08-28, 10:51 PM
Distant Shot [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#distantShot)
Prerequisites

Dex 25, Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Spot 20 ranks.
Benefit

You may throw or fire a ranged weapon at any target within line of sight, with no penalty for range.

Epic, but getting line of sight is easy.

Andion Isurand
2010-08-28, 10:53 PM
I think the Deepwood Sniper PrC increases range increment by 10 ft per level.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-28, 10:55 PM
Hmm, lets go with longest pre-epic, then, as yeah, epic/divine ranks tend to make the rules go a bit wonky. Good find, though.

Cragtop archers get to increase their shooting range to 15 increments (and trade #of attacks to remove the distance penalty). Since it requires far shot, you're looking at 22,5 times the original increment of the weapon.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-28, 11:01 PM
I think the Deepwood Sniper PrC increases range increment by 10 ft per level.

*digs out Masters of the Wild*

Right you are, sir. Slightly lower entry requirements than cragtop, too, meaning no difficulty in taking them both fully.

That alone gets us up to 220 ft range increments w a H Repeating Crossbow. Apply the 1.5 times from far shot, for 330 ft increments. (good catch, Id forgotten far shot!)
Apply distance modifier, for 660 ft increments.
Use 15 of those. 9,900 feet, or a bit under two miles. Quite good so far!

balistafreak
2010-08-28, 11:05 PM
I think we can easily get better than a 120 foot range increment.

*digs*

Aha. Dragonbone is a material from the Draconomnomnomnomnomicon, applicable to standard bows.

A Composite Longbow goes from 110 feet to 130 feet range increments. Zing! A small boost, but a boost nonetheless. :smallwink:

Halae
2010-08-28, 11:06 PM
I believe theres a spell, something like wind tunnel or similar, that can double the range of a projectile. Not sure about that though.

And what would be the level of kinetic energy this arrow is carrying? Two miles? In less than six seconds?

Eldariel
2010-08-28, 11:08 PM
Eh, without Distant Shot it's something like:


Comp. Greatbow 130'
Colossal + Weapon Size: (*1.25)^5 (Medium > Large; Large > Huge; Huge > Gargantuan; Gargantuan > Colossal; Colossal > Colossal + - through a Scroll of e.g. Giant Size or Shapechange, and Strongarm Bracers)
+20 Dragonbone
+20 Ranged Weapon Mastery
+100 Deepwood Sniper 10
*1.5 Far Shot
*2 Distance
*1.25 Flight Arrows


Colossal + Comp. Greatbow has range of ~396', assuming we simply multiply the previous range each time. That gives us base range of 536' with all the adjustments. We then proceed to multiply that range by, assuming D&D-style multipliers, 2.75 getting us ~1476' total. Then we proceed to multiply that by 15 (Cragtop Archer) and our composite range should be about 22140'. So...there.

EDIT: Oh yeah, it's true; Wind Tunnel [Drd 5; SC] doubles range increment so if we use a scroll of that too (might as well, we're blowing a ton of money on this anyways), we'd get 44280'.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-28, 11:14 PM
I believe theres a spell, something like wind tunnel or similar, that can double the range of a projectile. Not sure about that though.

I have a niggling feeling that I've seen one. Looking up the Distance enchantment didn't help...it's prereq is clairvoyance. No luck there.


And what would be the level of kinetic energy this arrow is carrying? Two miles? In less than six seconds?

Certainly enough to kill any catgirl on impact.

With a dragonbone composite longbow, we're up to 10,350 ft.

Edit: Eld is now shooting something like 8 miles. Awesomeness.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-28, 11:17 PM
Wind Tunnel, Spell Compendium 239 (druid 5)
+5 competence to attack, doubles projectile's range. Can be cast on others.

Lhurgyof
2010-08-28, 11:18 PM
Gnomish Crossbow Sight? AEG

FelixG
2010-08-28, 11:19 PM
The catgirls are going to feel this one...

Snake-Aes
2010-08-28, 11:21 PM
The catgirls are going to feel this one...

well, at 8 miles the arrow's flying at a good 2kilometers per second. That's like 6*10^-6 times the speed of light already.

Reynard
2010-08-28, 11:22 PM
They won't, however, see it coming.

BobVosh
2010-08-28, 11:25 PM
I think I have seen this posted on here before, got some where around 12 or so miles. Required scrying to even shoot since you have to see your target.

*edit* So completely wrong. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7170000&postcount=9

Maybe you can snag something from it to upgrade yours though.

FelixG
2010-08-28, 11:29 PM
well, at 8 miles the arrow's flying at a good 2kilometers per second. That's like 6*10^-6 times the speed of light already.

Thats something like 730d6 of damage from velocity alone :P

EnnPeeCee
2010-08-28, 11:32 PM
Eh, without Distant Shot it's something like:


Comp. Greatbow 130'
Colossal + Weapon Size: (*1.25)^5 (Medium > Large; Large > Huge; Huge > Gargantuan; Gargantuan > Colossal; Colossal > Colossal + - through a Scroll of e.g. Giant Size or Shapechange, and Strongarm Bracers)
+20 Dragonbone
+20 Ranged Weapon Mastery
+100 Deepwood Sniper 10
*1.5 Far Shot
*2 Distance
*1.25 Flight Arrows


Colossal + Comp. Greatbow has range of ~396', assuming we simply multiply the previous range each time. That gives us base range of 536' with all the adjustments. We then proceed to multiply that range by, assuming D&D-style multipliers, 2.75 getting us ~1476' total. Then we proceed to multiply that by 15 (Cragtop Archer) and our composite range should be about 22140'. So...there.

EDIT: Oh yeah, it's true; Wind Tunnel [Drd 5; SC] doubles range increment so if we use a scroll of that too (might as well, we're blowing a ton of money on this anyways), we'd get 44280'.

Deepwood Sniper's range increase is only added after all multipliers.

Telonius
2010-08-28, 11:36 PM
Thats something like 730d6 of damage from velocity alone :P

What's the amount of damage required to BLOW UP THE MOON! ..?

Tyndmyr
2010-08-28, 11:37 PM
What's the amount of damage required to BLOW UP THE MOON! ..?

Well, we've already got LOS. That makes the task a bit easier, actually.

balistafreak
2010-08-28, 11:39 PM
According to the SRD, 20 arrows weigh 3 pounds. So one arrow is 0.15 pounds.

Now shoot this baby at the decided velocity. (Take into account what EnnPeeCee has pointed out.)

Someone do the force formula. A calculation in pounds of force on impact would be awesome. A comparison to pounds/tons of TNT or Hiroshimas would be hilarious.

BobVosh
2010-08-28, 11:39 PM
What's the amount of damage required to BLOW UP THE MOON! ..?

Just gate in Piccolo.

Reynard
2010-08-28, 11:39 PM
So, now we just need a magic crossbow that ignores hardness and DR. Then we shoot the moon till it breaks.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-28, 11:41 PM
According to the SRD, 20 arrows weigh 3 pounds. So one arrow is 0.15 pounds.

Now shoot this baby at the decided velocity. (Take into account what EnnPeeCee has pointed out.)

Someone do the force formula. A calculation in pounds of force on impact would be awesome. A comparison to pounds/tons of TNT or Hiroshimas would be hilarious.

Well, given that it's above light speed, and to accelerate any finite mass to light speed requires infinite energy...

How many hiroshimas is this arrow as powerful as? All of them. Plus more.


Reynard, ignoring hardness is easy. Adamantium arrows and we're good.

Spiryt
2010-08-28, 11:47 PM
According to the SRD, 20 arrows weigh 3 pounds. So one arrow is 0.15 pounds.

Now shoot this baby at the decided velocity. (Take into account what EnnPeeCee has pointed out.)

Someone do the force formula. A calculation in pounds of force on impact would be awesome. A comparison to pounds/tons of TNT or Hiroshimas would be hilarious.

It will first loose it's feathers, and then burn/fall apart in atmosphere, lol. :smallbiggrin:

FelixG
2010-08-28, 11:49 PM
Hmmm, the Ballista has a 120 foot range increment, i just had a brilliant idea of the worlds fastest small sized critter by strapping a gnome or halfling to it, make them ride it dr strange love style!

BobVosh
2010-08-28, 11:52 PM
It will first loose it's feathers, and then burn/fall apart in atmosphere, lol. :smallbiggrin:

Force arrow. Or fire arrow. Both should protect from minor fire.

balistafreak
2010-08-28, 11:54 PM
Well, given that it's above light speed, and to accelerate any finite mass to light speed requires infinite energy...

STOP

That can't possibly be right.

The speed of light is fast. Like, really fast. Faster than TO fast. :smallbiggrin:

To whit, the speed of light is exactly 299,792,458 METRES per second (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_light). We're not even close. Yet. :smallamused:

ARROWTIME

Spiryt
2010-08-28, 11:55 PM
Force arrow. Or fire arrow. Both should protect from minor fire.

But can it protect from FRICTION?!

Du du dun.

BobVosh
2010-08-28, 11:56 PM
STOP

That can't possibly be right.

The speed of light is fast. Like, really fast. Faster than TO fast. :smallbiggrin:

To whit, the speed of light is exactly 299,792,458 METRES per second (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_light). We're not even close. Yet. :smallamused:

ARROWTIME

I believe the king of smack exceeds the speed of light.

So not my day, wrong build. -.- What has happened to me.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-28, 11:58 PM
But can it protect from FRICTION?!

Du du dun.

Force yes, fire don't think so
I am killing the joke right?

gomipile
2010-08-29, 12:01 AM
How about the PF Arcane Archer ability which doubles range?

Vantharion
2010-08-29, 12:04 AM
Hmmm, the Ballista has a 120 foot range increment, i just had a brilliant idea of the worlds fastest small sized critter by strapping a gnome or halfling to it, make them ride it dr strange love style!

Old joke:
How many gnomes does it take to kill a dragon?
One... at sufficient velocity.

FMArthur
2010-08-29, 12:11 AM
Distant Shot [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#distantShot)
Prerequisites

Dex 25, Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Spot 20 ranks.
Benefit

You may throw or fire a ranged weapon at any target within line of sight, with no penalty for range.

Epic, but getting line of sight is easy.

Getting Epic is easy, too! Get PaO'd into a large dragon, twice if you can't make it permanent with just one: Dragons qualify for epic feats without being epic. Pick up the Fling Enemy feat. You can get Distant Shot at 16th level via Primary Contact to increase your skill ranks by 1, if you can find a way to get a feat for that level (easy). Make sure that you are outdoors in the daytime so that you can see the sun from where you are...

BobVosh
2010-08-29, 12:19 AM
Getting Epic is easy, too! Get PaO'd into a large dragon, twice if you can't make it permanent with just one: Dragons qualify for epic feats without being epic. Pick up the Fling Enemy feat. You can get Distant Shot at 16th level via Primary Contact to increase your skill ranks by 1, if you can find a way to get a feat for that level (easy). Make sure that you are outdoors in the daytime so that you can see the sun from where you are...

Wouldn't it be easier to start as a venerable dragon wrought kobold?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-29, 12:22 AM
Getting Epic is easy, too! Get PaO'd into a large dragon, twice if you can't make it permanent with just one: Dragons qualify for epic feats without being epic. Pick up the Fling Enemy feat. You can get Distant Shot at 16th level via Primary Contact to increase your skill ranks by 1, if you can find a way to get a feat for that level (easy). Make sure that you are outdoors in the daytime so that you can see the sun from where you are...

You are an EVIL person.... bonus point if you make a dragonwrought kobold (assuming the reading you are a true dragon for all purpose including early access to epic feat)

FMArthur
2010-08-29, 12:24 AM
Wouldn't it be easier to start as a venerable dragon wrought kobold?

You would need the Giant Size spell at the moment you took the Fling Enemy feat and every time you used it. And even if you weren't two sizes too small and could qualify as normal, 2400gp for two castings of PaO is a pittance compared to carefully selecting race and feats for it. If you're cheesing, you might as well cheese hard. :smallcool:

edit: Actually, I just read Primary Contact in Cityscape again, and it looks like you'd have to take it on the very same level as the Distant Shot feat you're using it to qualify for. How do you get two bonus feats on one level for Primary Contact and Distant Shot?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-29, 12:41 AM
You would need the Giant Size spell at the moment you took the Fling Enemy feat and every time you used it. And even if you weren't two sizes too small and could qualify as normal, 2400gp for two castings of PaO is a pittance compared to carefully selecting race and feats for it. If you're cheesing, you might as well cheese hard. :smallcool:

edit: Actually, I just read Primary Contact in Cityscape again, and it looks like you'd have to take it on the very same level as the Distant Shot feat you're using it to qualify for. How do you get two bonus feats on one level for Primary Contact and Distant Shot?

If fling enemy is a fighter bonus feat... juggling levels in feat rogue as to get a fighter bonus feat, and a feat as a special ability?

Wonton
2010-08-29, 01:11 AM
According to the SRD, 20 arrows weigh 3 pounds. So one arrow is 0.15 pounds.

Now shoot this baby at the decided velocity. (Take into account what EnnPeeCee has pointed out.)

Someone do the force formula. A calculation in pounds of force on impact would be awesome. A comparison to pounds/tons of TNT or Hiroshimas would be hilarious.

Surprised no one's done this yet.

Let's use SI units... Hm. Can't quite find where it says how weapon weight changes with size. I'm assuming it's x2 per size increment, so x32 for Colossal+.

In that case... I'll let google do the math (http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=convert+1%2F2+*+32+*+0.15+pounds+*+%2839030ft+%2 F+6s%29^2+to+joules&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=)... So this arrow has 4.3 MJ of energy. Which is nothing compared to a nuclear explosion (a kiloton of TNT is 4.2 million MJ), but insanely powerful for a conventional impact. From what I found through some quick internet research, the impact resistance of a very tough household item is 20J, a hard hat is 50J, and a steel-toed boot is 125J.

For a more relevant comparison, 4.3 MJ is like being struck by an SUV travelling at 236 km/h.

Edit: For an even more relevant comparison, a Barrett .50-cal's bullets have kinetic energy up to 20 KJ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_BMG).

FMArthur
2010-08-29, 01:13 AM
If fling enemy is a fighter bonus feat... juggling levels in feat rogue as to get a fighter bonus feat, and a feat as a special ability?

It should be, but isn't for some reason. :smallconfused:

Spiryt
2010-08-29, 01:34 AM
Uh, actually, taking 7380 feet/second, it's about 171 972 Joules.

2249 meters/second square gives us = 5058001

Times 0.068 kg (0.15 pounds in about 68 g) gives 343944 approximately.

Divided by 2 = 171 972.

Still silly, but not that much.

I believe you multiplied square velocity by 68, while it should be by 0.068, since it's m/s times kg in SI to calculate KE.

Wonton
2010-08-29, 01:37 AM
Except the arrows in question were Colossal+, and so, weighed more than 0.15 pounds. Also note that the speed is not 7380, that value is incorrect, as the Deepwood Sniper range increment increase is added after the 2.75 multiplier.

Spiryt
2010-08-29, 01:41 AM
Dag, I thought you were calculating humble arrows, not colossal one...

Anyway, lol.

WinWin
2010-08-29, 04:30 AM
Horizon Goggles from Complete Mage.

Adds 50% to range. Around 8k gold from memory, so probably not available till 8th/9th level.

Curmudgeon
2010-08-29, 05:41 AM
Colossal + Weapon Size: (*1.25)^5 (Medium > Large; Large > Huge; Huge > Gargantuan; Gargantuan > Colossal; Colossal > Colossal + - through a Scroll of e.g. Giant Size or Shapechange, and Strongarm Bracers)

I don't think that multiplier is valid under 3.5 rules, since it's based on the 3.0 weapon size system. Weapon sizes were thoroughly re-engineered for 3.5, and there's been no repeat of this Arms and Equipment rule of x1.25 range for size increments, AFAIK.

Ricky S
2010-08-29, 06:27 AM
Dont forget that if you take the air domain as a cleric you can double your range with a domain focus feat. Although that might detract from better advancements if you didn't multiclass.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-29, 07:57 AM
Alternatively, the entropy domain's power is a ranged attack that technically doesn't have a range...

Haarkla
2010-08-29, 09:04 AM
Musket [DMG p145] range increment 150'.

Kobold-Bard
2010-08-29, 09:08 AM
But can it protect from FRICTION?!

Du du dun.

Show me a D&D book quote that details the damage from friction and we'll see if it's more than an adamantine arrow can handle :smallamused:

Rather than shatter the moon the archer should live up their and rule the world. Just take pot shots every now and again if people start getting disobedient and they're all set :smalltongue:

Peregrine
2010-08-29, 11:42 AM
So this arrow has 4.3 MJ of energy. Which is nothing compared to a nuclear explosion (a kiloton of TNT is 4.2 million MJ), but insanely powerful for a conventional impact.

Looking at it from the other direction... one kiloton (4184 GJ) of kinetic energy requires that we shoot a Medium arrow (6 seconds)*sqrt(2*(4184 gigajoules)/(0.15 pounds)) (http://www.google.com/search?q=(6+seconds)*sqrt(2*(4184+gigajoules)%2F(0 .15+pounds))+in+feet) = 218,307,484 feet. (It attains about 3.7% of the speed of light!) A Colossal arrow, assuming 32 times the mass is right (it seems to be), "only" needs to travel 38,591,675 feet.

I think we're still a ways off yet. :smalltongue:

Snake-Aes
2010-08-29, 11:45 AM
Looking at it from the other direction... one kiloton (4184 GJ) of kinetic energy requires that we shoot a Medium arrow (6 seconds)*sqrt(2*(4184 gigajoules)/(0.15 pounds)) (http://www.google.com/search?q=(6+seconds)*sqrt(2*(4184+gigajoules)%2F(0 .15+pounds))+in+feet) = 218,307,484 feet. (It attains about 3.7% of the speed of light!) A Colossal arrow, assuming 32 times the mass is right (it seems to be), "only" needs to travel 38,591,675 feet.

I think we're still a ways off yet. :smalltongue:

When I tell people just how little idea they have of how absurdly fast lightspeed is, they don't believe me.

cd4
2010-08-29, 12:56 PM
I was looking around other sites and found this thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866454/Ok_so_what_is_the_maximum_distance_you_can_get_usi ng_a_bow?)

It basically asks the same question and ended up with a pre-epic shot of ~18.25 miles. The relevant stats of the final build are here:


Wilder (XPH/SRD) 15 / Cragtop Archer (RoS) 3 / Deepwood Sniper (MotW) 2

Race: Goliath (RoS) or Half-Giant (XPH/SRD)

Feats:
Expanded Knowledge [Extend Range] (XPH/SRD)
Practiced Manifester (CPsi)
Far Shot (PHB/SRD)

Equipment:
Large Dragonbone (Drac) Composite Great Bow (CWar) of Distance (DMG/SRD)
Kerrenderit Arrows (FR:RoF) + some way to keep them frozen
Scroll of Accuracy (OA, CArc)
Scroll of Giant Size (CArc) @ 19th level
Scroll of Hawkeye (CAdv, SpC)
Scroll of Wind Tunnel (MotW, FR:Mag, SpC)
Torc of Power Preservation (XPH/SRD)

Note: For this to work, you need to have a high Use Magic Device in order to be able to use the 3 scrolls.

The computations:

Base Weapon:
Composite Greatbow (130 ft.) + Dragonbone (+20 ft.) + Kerrenderit Arrows (+25 ft.) = 175 ft. range increment
Size increase:
Large weapon (Goliath or Half-Giant) = 1 size increase
19th level Scroll of Giant Size = Colossal = 4 size increases
Each size increase = x1.25 range (A&EG, SavS)
175 ft. x 1.25^5 = ~534.06 ft.

Multipliers:
x1 [base weapon]
x1 ...of Distance
x7 Extend Range - 25 psi points (15 Wilder + 5 Wild Surge + 4 Practiced Manifester + 1 Torc of Power Preservation)
x Far Shot
x1 Scroll of Accuracy
x Scroll of Hawkeye
x1 Scroll of Wind Tunnel
= X12 = ~6408.69 ft.

+ 20 ft. (Deepwood Sniper 2)
= ~6428.69 ft. (range increment is over a mile!)

Maximum Range:
15 range increments (Cragtop Archer 3)
~6428.69 ft. x 15 = ~96,430 ft. (~18 miles)

Oh and they also worked out without any magic or psionics it was only just under 4 miles!


Goliath Fighter 5/Deepwood Sniper 10/Cragtop Archer 4

Composite Greatbow Range: 130ft
Dragonbone Enhancement: +20ft
Flight Arrows: +25ft
Ranged Weapon Mastery: +20ft
Deepwood Sniper +100ft
--------------------------------------------- = 295ft
Distance Weapon x2
Far Shot x1.5
Large Weapon: x1.25
--------------------------------------------- = x4.75

295ft x 4.75 = 1401.25ft

So without Arcing shot our maximum range with our weapon is 14,012.5ft.

With Arcing shot our maximum range with our weapon is 21,018.75ft.

They were also doing some speed calculations and ended up with the idea of an orbital battle station complete with ICBMs(Arrows with lots of explosive runes on them). If they fired at the right angle they could hit escape velocity. Oh and the damage the magic based arrow would do would leave the target about 500ft across the plain.

The only thing is that they only broke light speed when using the epic feat.

Oh and you know you qualify as artillery when scrying is the best way to see your target.

FMArthur
2010-08-29, 02:15 PM
Anything with Distant Shot can break the speed of light. That's the feat's default behavior. Throw a stone at any star in the sky and it will travel so ludicrously far in those 6 seconds that it will break the speed of light.

If you could somehow make the strength check, you could easily use a harpoon from Frostburn to reel in the sun itself with Distant Shot. Everything you can do with that feat is silly beyond measure! :smalltongue:

Zaq
2010-08-29, 02:27 PM
The spell Hawkeye (Drd/Rng 1, SpC) increases your range increments by, I believe, 50%, and should stack with Far Shot.

I forget if Goggles of the Near Horizon stack with Far Shot, since I don't have my books open, but they're worth looking into.

soulchicken
2010-08-29, 03:29 PM
Anything with Distant Shot can break the speed of light. That's the feat's default behavior. Throw a stone at any star in the sky and it will travel so ludicrously far in those 6 seconds that it will break the speed of light.

If you could somehow make the strength check, you could easily use a harpoon from Frostburn to reel in the sun itself with Distant Shot. Everything you can do with that feat is silly beyond measure! :smalltongue:

If you threw a stone at a star that you can see with that feat, you would still miss =P

Tossing out gravity, objects in the way, etc, you would be throwing a stone at where a star used to be. You'd literally have to lead those stars.

Greenish
2010-08-29, 04:09 PM
If you threw a stone at a star that you can see with that feat, you would still miss =P

Tossing out gravity, objects in the way, etc, you would be throwing a stone at where a star used to be. You'd literally have to lead those stars.Except that the stone would be traveling faster than light (it reaches the target in 6 seconds), so it would arrive before you even threw it. You'd have to aim "behind" the sun, not, in front of it.

KillianHawkeye
2010-08-29, 04:27 PM
Man I love seeing the ridiculous things this board gets up to sometimes! :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

soulchicken
2010-08-29, 05:12 PM
Except that the stone would be traveling faster than light (it reaches the target in 6 seconds), so it would arrive before you even threw it. You'd have to aim "behind" the sun, not, in front of it.

The sun, yes, but some of the stars that are x light years away, you would still have to aim 'in front'.

>.> I think. Don't take me on that =P

Zieu
2010-08-29, 05:49 PM
One thing I don't understand is why the projectile is assumed to travel the distance in 6 seconds....since its target is so far away, why wouldn't it take multiple rounds to travel and hit a target...?

Kobold-Bard
2010-08-29, 05:54 PM
One thing I don't understand is why the projectile is assumed to travel the distance in 6 seconds....since its target is so far away, why wouldn't it take multiple rounds to travel and hit a target...?

Becaus a ranges attack is a standard actio and a standard action completes in the round you start it.

Therefore it has to take less than 6 seconds., it's a fact of "physics".

FelixG
2010-08-29, 06:46 PM
Well it COULD complete in 3 seconds, because its a standard action, we could still move if we wanted to fire only a single shot?

Doesnt that double all of our velocity calculations? :D

Ernir
2010-08-29, 07:17 PM
Well it COULD complete in 3 seconds, because its a standard action, we could still move if we wanted to fire only a single shot?

Doesnt that double all of our velocity calculations? :D

That is not explicitly defined. All we know for sure is that one round is 6 seconds, how long each action within the round takes is something we don't know.
I doubt it's something constant, anyway.


The sun, yes, but some of the stars that are x light years away, you would still have to aim 'in front'.

>.> I think. Don't take me on that =P

Throwing stones past the speed of light shatters physics hard enough to make it not worth thinking about, if you ask me. So don't worry about it. :smalltongue:

Andion Isurand
2010-08-29, 08:33 PM
Well, if we are shooting in excess of 8 miles in 6 seconds, thats roughly Mach 5 or 6.

If we are shooting in excess of 18 miles in 6 seconds, thats roughly Mach 14.

The speed of light is Mach 880 991.09.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-29, 08:36 PM
Pretty much. On a normal atmosphere, Light travels at Mach 882352.

Dilb
2010-08-29, 10:29 PM
The sun, yes, but some of the stars that are x light years away, you would still have to aim 'in front'.

>.> I think. Don't take me on that =P

If you move fast than light, by relativity at least some people think you are going backwards in time. If the arrow bounces backwards or is otherwise shot back to you, it can literally (and I've done the math) hit you before you shoot it.

Bucky
2010-08-29, 10:31 PM
Except that the stone would be traveling faster than light (it reaches the target in 6 seconds), so it would arrive before you even threw it. You'd have to aim "behind" the sun, not, in front of it.

Hold on a sec. Either we're using relativistic physics or we aren't. If we are, time dilation means that from the point of view of the rock it hits in under 6 seconds, but it will appear to take longer to any observers not also travelling at some ludicrous fraction of the speed of light (i.e. the thrower and the target). If we aren't, there is no reason why the rock can't travel faster than the speed of light.

Ricky S
2010-08-29, 11:02 PM
One thing I don't understand is why the projectile is assumed to travel the distance in 6 seconds....since its target is so far away, why wouldn't it take multiple rounds to travel and hit a target...?

Yea thats what I thought as well. I assumed you just fired at a high angle and it would take multiple rounds to get to the target. So it would become like being a sniper in the real world. You would have to predict where a target would be rather than where it is. It also brings up the question of which DM would actually allow you to use this in a campaign?

Curmudgeon
2010-08-29, 11:24 PM
It also brings up the question of which DM would actually allow you to use this in a campaign?
Oh, I think any DM would allow very long shots such as this, with the usual proviso that you can't attack what you can't see. D&D 3.5 encounters don't start until someone makes a successful Spot check, with range penalties. (OK, so that's a simplification: encounters with avalanches and forest fires happen automatically; that's a carry-over from 3.0 rules.) Plus you can't Spot something over the horizon, which on flat terrain for Medium creatures is going to be within 3 miles.

Tar Palantir
2010-08-29, 11:54 PM
One thing I don't understand is why the projectile is assumed to travel the distance in 6 seconds....since its target is so far away, why wouldn't it take multiple rounds to travel and hit a target...?

Attacks are considered to be launched and completed within the space of a single standard action, actually less than a full six-second round, with no special exceptions called out due to time required to make the attack. Weird, but RAW.

EDIT: Missed a page of the thread, and was thus ninja'ed so hard I ceased to exis

FelixG
2010-08-30, 12:17 AM
It also brings up the question of which DM would actually allow you to use this in a campaign?

I would allow it, its about 1d10 damage over a really long distance, big whoop :P

If all else fails, person goes into total cover with a tower shield and the super sniper just goes "dang"

Tyndmyr
2010-08-30, 12:23 AM
I would allow it, its about 1d10 damage over a really long distance, big whoop :P

If all else fails, person goes into total cover with a tower shield and the super sniper just goes "dang"

Oh, it's significantly more than 1d10. First, it's composite, so add strength. Then, add at least +1(we had to enchant it in order to get distance). Tack on another +2 for height from craigtop archer. Im not sure what all gets added to this, but while it's not a high damage dealing build, it's certainly playable.

Of course, keep in mind that they are also some nice bonuses to hit, so it's relatively reliable, and you have side effects like Deepwood Sniper reducing concealment, and the fact that cragtop makes you a lot better at spotting at ranged. Hide is a class skill for deepwood, too. So, odds are, this sniper will be completely hidden, but able to see you if you ever do anything other than total cover.

So, you're fine, as long as you cower behind that shield. All day.

FelixG
2010-08-30, 12:27 AM
Oh, it's significantly more than 1d10. First, it's composite, so add strength. Then, add at least +1(we had to enchant it in order to get distance). Tack on another +2 for height from craigtop archer. Im not sure what all gets added to this, but while it's not a high damage dealing build, it's certainly playable.

Of course, keep in mind that they are also some nice bonuses to hit, so it's relatively reliable, and you have side effects like Deepwood Sniper reducing concealment, and the fact that cragtop makes you a lot better at spotting at ranged. Hide is a class skill for deepwood, too. So, odds are, this sniper will be completely hidden, but able to see you if you ever do anything other than total cover.

So, you're fine, as long as you cower behind that shield. All day.

Well say the sniper is 10 miles off, i could dive behind a tree, attempt to hide and slip away, as far as i have heard those snipers dont make spotting easier, just hitting at range. If im hiding and sneaking off thats what? a -5,000 something check to their spot?

So its a good build, im not arguing that, and it is playable, but if you put your mind to it you can overcome the "i keel you at 10 miles" advantage if you play smart :P

Tyndmyr
2010-08-30, 12:33 AM
Well say the sniper is 10 miles off, i could dive behind a tree, attempt to hide and slip away, as far as i have heard those snipers dont make spotting easier, just hitting at range. If im hiding and sneaking off thats what? a -5,000 something check to their spot?

So its a good build, im not arguing that, and it is playable, but if you put your mind to it you can overcome the "i keel you at 10 miles" advantage if you play smart :P

Well, for one, Cragtop halves the penalty for distance with regard to spot checks. And naturally, spot is a class skill for that and Deepwood, so they'll have maxed ranks. In conjunction with the Deepwood Sniper's Concealment Reduction, that makes the character naturally pretty good at observing things, even without any investment specifically for it.

And when you're shooting at ten miles, you're scrying on the target anyhow. So everything else becomes irrelevant.

Playing smart is probably "get the hell out of here, and figure out who this guy is".

FelixG
2010-08-30, 12:57 AM
Would make for a fun lieutenant for a villain

Kobold-Bard
2010-08-30, 02:47 AM
Would make for a fun lieutenant for a villain

Send the party after a dragon who lives at the top of a mountain (smaug style) then have him hire one of these abominable sharpshooters to sit at the very top under an Endure Elements spell and take pot shots at anyone who comes near. Makes resting a he'll of a lot more fun when you've got Moon-shattering arrows coming done on you every 1/2 hour or so :smalltongue:

Peregrine
2010-08-30, 04:16 AM
Pretty much. On a normal atmosphere, Light travels at Mach 882352.

What about in a vacuum? Answer: there is no Mach speed in a vacuum because there is no sound. In space, no-one can hear your cheese.

Tyrmatt
2010-08-30, 04:19 AM
Ahhh, there's that ridiculous DeepWarp/Cragtop build I was looking for. Not so much for the ability to override the rules of reality and curvature of the world but for the technical ability for story purposes to be able to do something like this. I also love the idea of my arrows breaking the sound barrier when they're fired.

Oh, historical/mythical tidbit: Robin Hood's most legendary feat of archery is when he shot a man dead in a single arrow from a mile away. The man was the last of a company of Nottingham guard who were fleeing his wrath after they killed a friend of his.

I can see myself now, making the most badass comment as I pick someone off
"Hood's got nothin' on me"

Morph Bark
2010-08-30, 05:11 AM
Reynard, ignoring hardness is easy. Adamantium arrows and we're good.

Adamantine arrows (if the entire arrow can be made from it rather than just the tip) are also a good idea to make sure the arrow doesn't burn up along the way from the speed due to the resistance it meets.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-30, 05:16 AM
Call his crossbow a Mosin Nagant, and call him "The End" for dramatic effect on any player who is a metal gear solid fan.

Ricky S
2010-08-30, 07:48 AM
I would allow it, its about 1d10 damage over a really long distance, big whoop :P

If all else fails, person goes into total cover with a tower shield and the super sniper just goes "dang"

Yea but depending on the distance you are firing from that could be multiple shots (especially if you are playing in a desert campaign (no cover))before the enemy can even get into close combat range or even for that matter normal ranged range. So that d10 could become 20d10 and it would probably be something like d10+2d6+4 = 20d10+40d6+80 anyway because you are high level. Granted that this wouldnt happen all the time but still...

Ormagoden
2010-08-30, 08:36 AM
Ok so why exactly aren't we using a heavy dragon bone ballista as the platform?
Or a heavy trebuchet for that matter...

Halae
2010-08-30, 08:50 AM
Ok so why exactly aren't we using a heavy dragon bone ballista as the platform?
Or a heavy trebuchet for that matter...

Because that would be silly
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/pyranack/awesome-1.png

Tyndmyr
2010-08-30, 08:55 AM
I statted up a light version of him...only 12 levels, so less deepwood sniper. Figured he'd be more fearsome then, than at level 20, when you have more counters.

I made sure to give him penetrating shot as well, in case they actually do get close. 'cause you know they're all gonna be sprinting straight toward him, all he needs to do is set up a choke point. Blam.

Esser-Z
2010-08-30, 08:41 PM
Can we shoot the moon yet?

Zieu
2010-08-30, 09:57 PM
Can we shoot the moon yet?

Have you been chargin yer laz0r?

Tyndmyr
2010-08-30, 10:45 PM
Can we shoot the moon yet?

Well, we can see it, so yes. =)

That just takes an epic feat.

FelixG
2010-08-31, 12:57 AM
Well, we can see it, so yes. =)

That just takes an epic feat.

Required material:
1x bow
1x arrow
1x rope
1x harpoon

Steps:
Step 1: Tie one end of rope to harpoon, tie the other to the bow.
Step 2: Have fighter impale monkey with the harpoon.
Step 3: Have the archer shoot toward the moon

Result: First monkey to leave orbit AND land on the moon in a DnD setting!

Zieu
2010-08-31, 10:59 AM
But....but why would you tie the other end of the rope to the bow?? That just limits your range :(

Tyndmyr
2010-08-31, 03:17 PM
But....but why would you tie the other end of the rope to the bow?? That just limits your range :(

Wrong. Tie the rope to you, launching yourself after the arrow. We'll call it the "Moon shot".

Zieu
2010-08-31, 03:34 PM
Wrong. Tie the rope to you, launching yourself after the arrow. We'll call it the "Moon shot".

Well, tying the rope to your BODY is very different than tying it to your bow. FelixG said tie one end of the rope to the harpoon, the other to the bow. All that accomplishes is launching your bow to the moon.

Tying yourself would obviously launch you as well. I was just remarking on the ridiculous thought of launching your bow to the moon....

Snake-Aes
2010-08-31, 03:41 PM
Well, tying the rope to your BODY is very different than tying it to your bow. FelixG said tie one end of the rope to the harpoon, the other to the bow. All that accomplishes is launching your bow to the moon.

Tying yourself would obviously launch you as well. I was just remarking on the ridiculous thought of launching your bow to the moon....

Thrusting yourself is not much better either. You'll be ejected from earth at 0,2c, or mach 882352.

Wreckingrocc
2010-08-31, 04:28 PM
This thread is so full of win. I want to make a sniper antagonist now. :smallamused:

It would be wonderful to write some sort of instructions, as if from a higher being, and put it around the arrow. Fire it several miles to a farmhouse, where a peasant will find it and take it as a sign from their deity. As long as they're technically not cohorts, you could have an army of peasant fodder without the leadership feat.