Another Mystic Theurge. Please PEACH.

[Kobold-Bard]

Because I do so love the idea behind the Mystic Theurge and would like to play one without sucking I've made this. It's based on the Ultimate Magus which, while not a power house does take some of the sting out of entering into dual casting.
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Mystic Theurge

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS4T3Xur53d7rYenljadRAeYSr5Zs77F aQb9D3f-hVvjjKVirs&t=1&usg=__z0_TQspgUjzpyjfwSVbH7H2z5g4=

POWER!!! UNLIMITED POOOOOWWWWWWEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRR!!!!!
-The final words of Arden Spellslaughter; Mystic Theurge
before he was struck down in battle at Garryan Peak

Pre-requisites:
Skills: Concentration 7 ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) 4 ranks, Knowledge (Religion or Nature) 4 ranks, Spellcraft 7 ranks.
Spellcasting: Must be able to either cast 2nd level arcane spells and 1st level divine spells or 2nd level divine spells and 1st level arcane spells.
Special: Must have created (arcane) or discovered (divine) a new spell and named it for yourself (arcane + archivist) or your deity (divine).

*The special requirement may be ignored if the DM doesn't feel that new spell creation/discovery is appropriate for their game.

Hit Dice: d6
{table=head]Level|Base AttackBonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spellcasting
1|+0|+0|+0|+2|Focussed Mind|+1 one existing arcane spellcasting & +1 existing divine spellcasting
2|+1|+0|+0|+3|Twincast|+1 lowest level existing spellcasting
3|+1|+1|+1|+3|Practised Spellcaster|+1 one existing arcane spellcasting & +1 existing divine spellcasting
4|+2|+1|+1|+4||+1 one existing arcane spellcasting & +1 existing divine spellcasting
5|+2|+1|+1|+4|Practised Spellcaster|+1 lowest level existing spellcasting
6|+3|+2|+2|+5||+1 one existing arcane spellcasting & +1 existing divine spellcasting
7|+3|+2|+2|+5||+1 one existing arcane spellcasting & +1 existing divine spellcasting
8|+4|+2|+2|+6||+1 one existing arcane spellcasting & +1 existing divine spellcasting
9|+4|+3|+3|+6||+1 one existing arcane spellcasting & +1 existing divine spellcasting
10|+5|+3|+3|+7|True Theurge|+1 one existing arcane spellcasting & +1 existing divine spellcasting[/table]

Class Skills: (2+Int Mod/level) Concentration, Know (Arcana), Know (Religion or Nature), Spellcraft + 3 class skills from your arcane class & 3 class skills from your divine class.

*Know (Religion or Nature) is whichever one you used as a pre-requisite to qualify for Mystic Theurge. If you had 4 ranks in both when you took your first level of thid class then choose one to become a Class Skill.
*Additional class skills are chosen from the lists of the two classes you advance with your first Mystic Theurge level, and cannot be changed once chosen.

Proficiencies: Mystic Theurge grants no new proficiencies.

Class Features:

Spellcasting: At each level except 3rd & 5th the Mystic Theurge gains an increase in CL, spells/day & spells known (if applicable) for an arcane spellcasting class and a divine spellcasting class that he had at least one level in before entering Mystic Theurge, as if he had taken a level in that class.

At 3rd & 5th level the Mystic Theurge only gains an increase in CL, spells/day and spells known (if applicable) for the casting class that it had at least one level in before entering Mystic Theurge with the lowest current Base CL, as if he had taken a level in that class.

These rules do not take into account any CL modifiers (such as items, feats; including Practiced Spellcaster, spells etc.) and as always, your CL may never go higher than your HD.

Regardless of the level you do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of those classes would have gained.

Focussed Mind (Ex): At first level the Mystic Theurge gains clarity into how he perceives magic. From now on the two classes that he advances with his first level of Mystic Theurge use the same stat for determining what level spells he can cast, his bonus spells/day and his spell Save DCs.

The chosen stat must be used by at least one of his classes for either of the previously mentioned factors. So a Wizard/Favoured Soul could use Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma, but a Sorcerer/Druid could only use either Charisma or Wisdom.

Twincast (Su): 1/day for each class level he has, the Mystic Theurge may cast two spells in a single full round action ((as in it takes both their move and standard action, but still happens in this round rather than the start of the next one)).

One spell must be from an arcane class you have advanced with Mystic Theurge and one must be from a divine class you have advanced with Mystic Theurge. Both must have a casting time of 1 standard action or less and he must supply all necessary components for both spells.

The spell's combined levels must equal the Mystic Theurge's class level-1 including any Metamagic adjustments. For example at second level he can Twincast Cure Light Wounds and Prestidigitation, and at sixth level he may Twincast Silenced Doom and Fireball.

Practised Spellcaster: At third level the Mystic Theurge learns to use his magical styles to strengthen one another. He gains the Practised Spellcaster feat for his lowest level spellcasting class that he has advanced with this class.

At fifth level he gains the same feat for another spellcasting class of the opposite type (arcane or divine) to the one he applied the feat to at third level that he has advanced with this class.

If he has advanced more than one arcane or divine spellcasting class with Mystic Theurge levels he must choose which one to apply these feats too, and once the decision is made it cannot be changed.

True Theurge (Ex): At tenth level the Mystic Theurge no longer distinguishes between the two types of magic he wields, they are simply two halves of the same whole.

From now on if he takes levels in another prestige class that advances either arcane or divine spellcasting he may advance his Mystic Theurge casting; basically adding a level of both an arcane and divine class that he had at least one level in before first entering Mystic Theurge and advanced at least once with Mystic Theurge.

For example a Wizard 3/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 10 who took a level in Radiant Servant of Pelor would increaes both his Wizard and Cleric casting by one, rather than just Cleric casting.

However, this greater advancement taxes the Mystic Theurge's mental energies to the maximum. As such he cannot advance MT casting with classes that also dual advance spellcasting such as True Necromancer. They may still take levels in True Necromancer if they so choose, however they would have to advance single casting levels as normal.

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And there you have it. Hopefully sorts the Mystic Theurge's MADness, action economy issues and feat intensive design. True Theurge is something I thought up so that (combined with entry 1 level earlier) they can still just about get 9th level spells at 20th level (which I think is only fair).

Queries, comments and criticism are welcome and appreciated.

Thanks for your time,
K-B

[DrWeird]

It was better as two divine and arcane classes to qualify. There's no reason to change that. Why did you bump hit hit die up? I'm not condemning it outright because I hate d4's, but I'd like to know your reason before I make a decision on that.

Focused Mind is okay, but isn't as synergy-happy as you'd think; If I pick, say...Charisma, and That suddenly gets burned or drained, then I'm stuck as a useless tag along for a while; a better idea would be to allow them, when it is tactically useful for them, to apple a single stat towards all rolls and checks taken involving casting either divine or arcane spells.


If both classes use the same stat for all of those factors already (such as a Wizard/Archivist) then the Mystic Theurge instead gains a bonus Metamagic Feat of their choice that they currently qualify for.

Haha, no.

Twincast looks decent, helps with the lowered spells they end up with...

Now, True Theurge is tricky; at higher levels, it takes away the only balancing factor of having so many spells per day in two different categories, so I don't really like this; have you considered some spell-related ability instead? Like, say, being able to cross spells, list-wise? Or apply certain metamagic to both, or something to that effect? Something more related to the Theurge. I would suggest either changing this to something else, or if you keep it, reverting the d6 back to a d4.

[Kobold-Bard]

It was better as two divine and arcane classes to qualify. There's no reason to change that. Why did you bump hit hit die up? I'm not condemning it outright because I hate d4's, but I'd like to know your reason before I make a decision on that.

Because I hate d4s too. It's a hapy halfway between the almost exclusively d4 arcanists and the almost exclusively d8 divine casters was my reasoning.


Focused Mind is okay, but isn't as synergy-happy as you'd think; If I pick, say...Charisma, and That suddenly gets burned or drained, then I'm stuck as a useless tag along for a while; a better idea would be to allow them, when it is tactically useful for them, to apple a single stat towards all rolls and checks taken involving casting either divine or arcane spells.
Isn't that true of any caster; they get their casting stat drained and they become a commoner with better saves and lots of gold?


Haha, no.
Fair enough, just thought giving something to people that had made that choice already rather than simply getting nothing from that class feature. Maybe something like a bonus to some kind of check instead, or drop it completely?


Twincast looks decent, helps with the lowered spells they end up with...
Cheers.


Now, True Theurge is tricky; at higher levels, it takes away the only balancing factor of having so many spells per day in two different categories, so I don't really like this; have you considered some spell-related ability instead? Like, say, being able to cross spells, list-wise? Or apply certain metamagic to both, or something to that effect? Something more related to the Theurge. I would suggest either changing this to something else, or if you keep it, reverting the d6 back to a d4.
It doesnt actually turn them into a single type of spell, they remain arcane and divine. Nothing changes there, that unifying stuff is just fluff.

All this does is let them take levels in a PrC eg. Archmage and advance both their arcane and divine spellcasting rather than leaving Mystic Theurge and having to abandon one type again in order to be of any use at the top levels. My alternative was simply lengthening Mystic Theurge like the True Necromancer, but that screws with Twincast's limits.

[DrWeird]

For the last part, I know that; I was suggesting something else for the sheer fact that this looks like a complete upgrade when taken into consideration, wherein if you're a wizard 3/cleric 2/mystic theurge 10/archmage 5, you're missing nothing but a few 9th-level spell slots, with the ability to cast from two large pools of spells. Doesn't seem too balanced to me - mechanics do need to come before fluff, even if the idea is cool. HOWEVER, something can be made from this as a 10-th level cap ability that works...

EDIT: Here's one; the ability to deem whenever a class would provide a level of an arcane or divine spellcasting class you get, you may pick whether you are granted a divine spellcasting level or an arcane spellcasting level - that way, you can split everything up to progress by arcane/divine/arcane/divine~etc, if you want it to be. Theurge keeps their lowered spellcasting balancing, while still gaining relevant abilities.

[Kobold-Bard]

For the last part, I know that; I was suggesting something else for the sheer fact that this looks like a complete upgrade when taken into consideration, wherein if you're a wizard 3/cleric 2/mystic theurge 10/archmage 5, you're missing nothing but a few 9th-level spell slots, with the ability to cast from two large pools of spells. Doesn't seem too balanced to me - mechanics do need to come before fluff, even if the idea is cool. HOWEVER, something can be made from this as a 10-th level cap ability that works...

Clearly being woken up at 5 by a cat trying to claw my feet off has impaired my brain and made me misread your post :smallredface:

[DrWeird]

Refer above; If you take wizard 3/cleric 2/mystic theurge 10/archmage 5, you can split that provided levels granted by the archmage into divine at 1rst/arcane at 2nd/divine at 3rd/arcane at 4th/divine at 5th, for balancing, if you want. Of course, they could go divine/divine/divine/divine/arcane, too :smallbiggrin:

[Zaydos]

True Theurge looks good.

Twincast will be annoyingly low level spells at first and near the end of your career but has a sweet spot for a while in there.

It's made to prevent early entry which is nice as it can't be balanced with and without early entry. The Special requirement is troublesome, especially with DMs that don't like researching spells (that and the spell research rules were gutted in 3.5) or who feel like it should be the realm of high level characters not some fledgling Wizard Lv 3.

Spellcasting progression: Okay so you did like ultimate magus to prevent every level from being on one side. Copy-paste from ultimate magus it seems. You left in the loophole ultimate magus has, actually you practically built it in, so you can get +9 casting to your better one and +8 to the other (Practiced Spellcaster yay!).

[DrWeird]

I can see keeping the d6, if you modify true theurge, remove the ultimate magus loop, and return to the 2 arcane/2 divine requirement only.

[Kobold-Bard]

True Theurge looks good.
Thanks. I understand what DrWeird is saying and it makes sense, but I do like not having to give up a side of spellcasting you've worked to develop.


Twincast will be annoyingly low level spells at first and near the end of your career but has a sweet spot for a while in there.
Coolio.


It's made to prevent early entry which is nice as it can't be balanced with and without early entry. The Special requirement is troublesome, especially with DMs that don't like researching spells (that and the spell research rules were gutted in 3.5) or who feel like it should be the realm of high level characters not some fledgling Wizard Lv 3.
Zaydos' Luxury Armchair seems doable at any level to me :smallwink:

I'll add a note saying this can be ignored if the DM doesn't feel it fits in with their game.


Spellcasting progression: Okay so you did like ultimate magus to prevent every level from being on one side. Copy-paste from ultimate magus it seems. You left in the loophole ultimate magus has, actually you practically built it in, so you can get +9 casting to your better one and +8 to the other (Practiced Spellcaster yay!).

Eh? Whut'chu talkin' 'bout Zaydos?[/Gary Coleman]

[DrWeird]

Considering the fluff, choosing which spellcasting pool to gain by each level in a prestige class (detailed above) actually makes sense, unless that's just me and the early-morning drowsiness.

[Zaydos]

Eh? Whut'chu talkin' 'bout Zaydos?[/Gary Coleman]

Practiced Spellcaster raises Caster Level. The way Ultimate Magus and this are written it's based on your Caster Level which one gains increased spellcasting.

So Wizard 3/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 1 has CL 4/2. Takes 2nd level in Mystic Theurge this becomes 5/3. Gets Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric) at 3rd level, so caster level is now 5/7 although spells per day is 5/4 still. Takes Lv 5 and since the caster level increase is before feats are gained for the level (I think) it would be 7/9 so the increased would go to wizard (8/9) then you'd get practiced spellcaster (9/9), although the order of when you get the feat is unimportant (as in the case of a tie you choose). After that at Lv 8 of Mystic Theurge you'd be 11/11 (but spells per day would be as 9/7) so you'd get to choose and it would become 12/11 with spells per day as 10/7. Lv 10 of Mystic Theurge is CL 14/13 but spells per day as if 12/9 (at lv 14). 6 levels in random PrCs and you have 18/15 casting. Not the worst thing possible (as you still give up 2 levels of wizard, compared to 1 for early entry tricks into Mystic Theurge) but something that should be noted.

Without any of this tricky stuff you end up with a CL of 17/16 at 20th.

Edit: If you make the change to True Theurge casting then becomes 18/10 or 17/11. It's not worth splitting casting at all for a theurge past that required to get into a theurge class.

[Kobold-Bard]

Practiced Spellcaster raises Caster Level. The way Ultimate Magus and this are written it's based on your Caster Level which one gains increased spellcasting.

So Wizard 3/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 1 has CL 4/2. Takes 2nd level in Mystic Theurge this becomes 5/3. Gets Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric) at 3rd level, so caster level is now 5/7 although spells per day is 5/4 still. Takes Lv 5 and since the caster level increase is before feats are gained for the level (I think) it would be 7/9 so the increased would go to wizard (8/9) then you'd get practiced spellcaster (9/9), although the order of when you get the feat is unimportant (as in the case of a tie you choose). After that at Lv 8 of Mystic Theurge you'd be 11/11 (but spells per day would be as 9/7) so you'd get to choose and it would become 12/11 with spells per day as 10/7. Lv 10 of Mystic Theurge is CL 14/13 but spells per day as if 12/9 (at lv 14). 6 levels in random PrCs and you have 18/15 casting. Not the worst thing possible (as you still give up 2 levels of wizard, compared to 1 for early entry tricks into Mystic Theurge) but something that should be noted.

Without any of this tricky stuff you end up with a CL of 17/16 at 20th.

Edit: If you make the change to True Theurge casting then becomes 18/10 or 17/11. It's not worth splitting casting at all for a theurge past that required to get into a theurge class.

1. Since my MT needs one less Base class level to get in it should only advance the lower class individually on 2 levels rather than 3. That is changed.

2. How do I re-word spellcasting so that they end up with 11/11 casting and a CL of 14/14 (given my Practised Spellcaster class feature feats), which was my intention? If that makes sense.

[Zaydos]

1. Since my MT needs one less Base class level to get in it should only advance the lower class individually on 2 levels rather than 3. That is changed.

2. How do I re-word spellcasting so that they end up with 11/11 casting and a CL of 14/14 (given my Practised Spellcaster class feature feats), which was my intention? If that makes sense.

No idea really. I never figured out the Ultimate Magus trick on my own, I saw it on these boards and went and checked the books and it did work. There really isn't a good, non-bulky or even used terminology for "Effective Caster Level for determining Spells Known and Spells per Day" or some such.

[DragoonWraith]

Now, True Theurge is tricky; at higher levels, it takes away the only balancing factor of having so many spells per day in two different categories, so I don't really like this; have you considered some spell-related ability instead? Like, say, being able to cross spells, list-wise? Or apply certain metamagic to both, or something to that effect? Something more related to the Theurge. I would suggest either changing this to something else, or if you keep it, reverting the d6 back to a d4.
Have you ever played a Theurge, or seen one played?

There is no such advantage.

I think True Theurge, at the least, is pretty good. You've already given up at two-to-three levels in each class; that is sufficient.

If you enter as a Wizard 3/Archivist 1 (probably the best entry), at Wizard 3/Archivist 1/Mystic Theurge 10, you have the spellcasting of a 11th level Wizard and 11th level Archivist at ECL 13. You've given up four spellcasting levels, and are therefore strictly inferior to Wizard 13 or Archivist 13. To end up with 18th level Wizard casting and 18th level Archivist casting is not overpowered; for the most part Wizard 20 or Archivist 20 would still be better.

[Kobold-Bard]

No idea really. I never figured out the Ultimate Magus trick on my own, I saw it on these boards and went and checked the books and it did work. There really isn't a good, non-bulky or even used terminology for "Effective Caster Level for determining Spells Known and Spells per Day" or some such.

"At each level except 3rd & 5th the Mystic Theurge gains an increase in CL, spells/day & spells known (if applicable) for an arcane spellcasting class and a divine spellcasting class that he had at least one level in before entering Mystic Theurge, as if he had taken a level in that class.

At 3rd & 5th level the Mystic Theurge only gains an increase in CL, spells/day and spells known (if applicable) for the casting class that it had at least one level in before entering Mystic Theurge with the lowest current Base CL, as if he had taken a level in that class.

These rules do not take into account any CL modifiers (such as items, feats; including Practiced Spellcaster, spells etc.) and as always, your CL may never go higher than your HD."

While I'm relatively certain it can still be abused, I can't for the life of me see how. If it can then if someone could explain I'd appreciate it.


Have you ever played a Theurge, or seen one played?

There is no such advantage.

I think True Theurge, at the least, is pretty good. You've already given up at two-to-three levels in each class; that is sufficient.

If you enter as a Wizard 3/Archivist 1 (probably the best entry), at Wizard 3/Archivist 1/Mystic Theurge 10, you have the spellcasting of a 11th level Wizard and 11th level Archivist at ECL 13. You've given up four spellcasting levels, and are therefore strictly inferior to Wizard 13 or Archivist 13. To end up with 18th level Wizard casting and 18th level Archivist casting is not overpowered; for the most part Wizard 20 or Archivist 20 would still be better.

Praise from the man himself (at least in terms from Mystic Theurges). I'm honoured :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, that's what I was thinking when I made that ability.

[Zaydos]

"At each level except 3rd & 5th the Mystic Theurge gains an increase in CL, spells/day & spells known (if applicable) for an arcane spellcasting class and a divine spellcasting class that he had at least one level in before entering Mystic Theurge, as if he had taken a level in that class.

At 3rd & 5th level the Mystic Theurge only gains an increase in CL, spells/day and spells known (if applicable) for the casting class that it had at least one level in before entering Mystic Theurge with the lowest Base CL, as if he had taken a level in that class.

These rules do not take into account any CL modifiers (such as items, feats; including Practiced Spellcaster, spells etc.) and as always, your CL may never go higher than your HD."

While I'm relatively certain it can still be abused, I can't for the life of me see how. If it can then if someone could explain I'd appreciate it.

Looks good and prevents a lot of abuse. Mine has always just been say no to early entry and find a way to beef up Mystic Theurge but this seems to do the job fairly well (thanks to True Theurge). I'd have to look at what kind of spells they get at each level to see how much twin cast is worth (i.e. Character Lv 10 they can cast 4th level spells and twin cast a total of 5 spell levels, at Lv 11 they can...).

[DrWeird]

I like it, too - looks pretty good, from this end :smallbiggrin:

[Kobold-Bard]

Alright I'll add it to the class. If someone comes up with something later on I'll modify it accordingly.

[Zaydos]

Quick glance through of character level, max spell level, and twincast from 6th to 20th.

Character Level 6:
Wizard 3/Cleric 1/MT 2
Cast: 2nd level spells (wizard and cleric)
Twincast: 1 level total (2 0 or 1 1st and a 0).

Level 7:
Wizard 3/Cleric 1/MT 3
Cast: 3rd/2nd level spells
Twincast: 2 levels total (2 1st)

Level 8:
MT 4
Cast: 3rd/3rd level spells
Twincast: 3 levels total (2nd and 1st)

Lv 9:
MT 5
Cast: 3/3
Twincast: 4 levels total (2 2nd or 1st and 3rd)

Lv 10:
MT 6
Cast: 4/4
Twincast: 5 levels total.

Lv 11:
MT 7
Cast: 4/4
Twincast: 6 levels total

Lv 12:
MT 8
Cast: 5/5
Twincast: 7 levels total.

Lv 13:
MT 9
Cast: 5/5
Twincast: 8 levels total.

Lv 14
MT 10
Cast: 6/6
Twincast: 9 levels total.

Lv 15:
PrC 1
Cast: 6/6
Twincast: 9 levels

Lv 16:
PrC 2
Cast: 7/7
Twincast: 9 levels

Lv 17:
PrC 3
Cast: 7/7
Twincast: 9 levels.

Lv 18:
PrC: 4
Cast: 8/8
Twincast: 9 levels.

Lv 19:
PrC: 5
Cast: 8/8
Twincast: 9 levels.

Lv 20:
PrC: 6
Cast: 9/9
Twincast: 9 levels.

Have to say that twincast helps make up for being behind spell levels somewhat (still being 1-1/2 spell levels behind a single class hurts) it becomes outdated after 14th level when you can no longer progress in MT. Then again it was getting more powerful with level and it is better to cap it at 10th than continue progressing it to quickened 6th level spell with your 9ths, and 7th with your 8ths.

Until Lv 20 (maybe even then) wizard or cleric is probably stronger, and Lv 5 Wizard with PrC 15 is probably even better. Definitely not in the league of Incanatrix or those big boys but I wouldn't like it if it was. Still it's a big improvement on the DMG's and a good job.

[Kobold-Bard]

Quick glance through of character level, max spell level, and twincast from 6th to 20th.

Character Level 6:
Wizard 3/Cleric 1/MT 2
Cast: 2nd level spells (wizard and cleric)
Twincast: 1 level total (2 0 or 1 1st and a 0).

Level 7:
Wizard 3/Cleric 1/MT 3
Cast: 3rd/2nd level spells
Twincast: 2 levels total (2 1st)

Level 8:
MT 4
Cast: 3rd/3rd level spells
Twincast: 3 levels total (2nd and 1st)

Lv 9:
MT 5
Cast: 3/3
Twincast: 4 levels total (2 2nd or 1st and 3rd)

Lv 10:
MT 6
Cast: 4/4
Twincast: 5 levels total.

Lv 11:
MT 7
Cast: 4/4
Twincast: 6 levels total

Lv 12:
MT 8
Cast: 5/5
Twincast: 7 levels total.

Lv 13:
MT 9
Cast: 5/5
Twincast: 8 levels total.

Lv 14
MT 10
Cast: 6/6
Twincast: 9 levels total.

Lv 15:
PrC 1
Cast: 6/6
Twincast: 9 levels

Lv 16:
PrC 2
Cast: 7/7
Twincast: 9 levels

Lv 17:
PrC 3
Cast: 7/7
Twincast: 9 levels.

Lv 18:
PrC: 4
Cast: 8/8
Twincast: 9 levels.

Lv 19:
PrC: 5
Cast: 8/8
Twincast: 9 levels.

Lv 20:
PrC: 6
Cast: 9/9
Twincast: 9 levels.

Have to say that twincast helps make up for being behind spell levels somewhat (still being 1-1/2 spell levels behind a single class hurts) it becomes outdated after 14th level when you can no longer progress in MT. Then again it was getting more powerful with level and it is better to cap it at 10th than continue progressing it to quickened 6th level spell with your 9ths, and 7th with your 8ths.

So you're saying it gets outdated, but that's a good thing. Right?
Apologies if I've misunderstood (as my first reply to DrW will show, that does happen from time to time :smalltongue:)


Until Lv 20 (maybe even then) wizard or cleric is probably stronger, and Lv 5 Wizard with PrC 15 is probably even better. Definitely not in the league of Incanatrix or those big boys but I wouldn't like it if it was. Still it's a big improvement on the DMG's and a good job.

My intent was never to make it an Incantatrix, just a better version of the Mystic Theurge eg. one that didn't make me sad every time I looked at it and tried to build one.

[Zaydos]

I think I realized why True Theurge scared me - it's a long story, but in some way I would suggest some limitation on their ability to wear armor in any form, up to Light, maybe? For the simple fact that you could combine a CoDzilla and a wizard and only having missed out on three levels, which does not prevent 9th level spell slots. While mechanically it seems strange, if I used this, I would put such a limitation.

It wasn't the ability that threw me, it was the potential for twinking.

Armor restriction doesn't do much. Greater Luminous Armor from BoED + Abjurant Champion gives you +5 full-plate that gives enemies a penalty on melee attack (note Cloistered Cleric can go CoDzilla without heavy armor proficiency, and Druid doesn't need armor either). Besides nothing here says it gets rid of ASF in the first place.

Edit:
It gets outdated which isn't necessarily good, but if it continued to increase in power at the same rate it would get broken before too long. All in all it looks pretty good. There are better abilities (Master Specialist's 3/day free quicken on Conjuration) but it is still a good one even when it is mostly a free Lv 1 buff spell. So while I'd prefer if it advanced a little more it needs a cap at some point and this is 1) the least awkward place to put it, and 2) a fairly decent one game mechanically. So it's good as is.

And yeah it doesn't make me want to cry as much (personally I enjoyed Arcane Hierophant, but wouldn't want to play it in a campaign with a full wizard) and like I said I wouldn't like it if it was on Incanatrix's power level (why WotC why?).

[Kobold-Bard]

I don't know where DrW's post went, but 9th level spells are the caster's birth-rite for being casters. 1 on each side is powerful, but they come after the straight casters have had them for three levels already, so one on each side isn't the end of the world imho.

Reducing armour proficiency wouldn't do anything because no one will be wearing any anyway since 1/2 their power then becomes dependant on the luck of the dice.

[Zaydos]

That and as I already pointed out they can get better armor without penalties already if they want (thank you BoED and Abjurant Champion).

[DrWeird]

I deleted it for not being relevant. Minus three spellcaster levels from either pool isn't what I'd call balance for full casting capabilities for arcane and divine that transfers to a full 20 level arcane and divine spellcasting character, but it's the general consensus that this is incorrect, meh. :smallcool: