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View Full Version : [3.5; ToB II] New base class: Huntsman [PEACH]



playswithfire
2010-08-29, 10:48 AM
This is the first adept class from my attempt at a follow-on to ToB (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8691736) that I've done a full writeup for. Looking for any comments. It's designed to be the ToB-style replacement for the ranger and, using the adaptation in the third section, the barbarian.


HIT DIE : d12
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances Known

1st|+1|
2|
2|
0|Muscle Memory +1, Animal Instinct |
2|
2|
1

2nd|+2|
3|
3|
0|Animal Companion|
3|
2|
1

3rd|+3|
3|
3|
1|Combat discipline(feat)|
3|
2|
2

4th|+4|
4|
4|
1| |
4|
2|
2

5th|+5|
4|
4|
1|Muscle Memory +2|
4|
3|
2

6th|+6/+1|
5|
5|
2| |
5|
3|
3

7th|+7/+2|
5|
5|
2| |
5|
3|
3

8th|+8/+3|
6|
6|
2|Combat discipline (weapons)|
6|
3|
3

9th|+9/+4|
6|
6|
3| |
6|
3|
4

10th|+10/+5|
7|
7|
3|Muscle Memory +3|
7|
4|
4

11th|+11/+6/+1|
7|
7|
3| |
7|
4|
4

12th|+12/+7/+2|
8|
8|
4| |
8|
4|
5

13th|+13/+8/+3|
8|
8|
4|Combat discipline (tactics)|
8|
4|
5

14th|+14/+9/+4|
9|
9|
4| |
9|
5|
5

15th|+15/+10/+5|
9|
9|
5|Muscle Memory +4|
9|
5|
6

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|
10|
10|
5| |
10|
5|
6

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|
10|
10|
5| |
10|
5|
6

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|
11|
11|
6|Combat discipline (stance)|
11|
5|
7

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|
11|
11|
6| |
11|
6|
7

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|
12|
12|
6|Muscle Memory +5|
12|
6|
7

[/table]
Class Skills (6 + Int modifier per level, x4 at 1st level): Balance, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Ride, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble

HUNTSMAN
I have shown many fools that the deadliest sound in the wild is not the roar of the lion or the rattle of the coiled snake, but the silence that comes before before my arrow spills their blood.
-- Kamli, a huntsman
MAKING A HUNTSMANA huntsman is alternately a front-line melee character or a secondary ranged combatant and many can fill both rolls if the need exists, aided by their wide array of stances. Though he cannot replace a cleric or other dedicated healer, the huntsman's Devoted Spirit and Life's Blood disciplines give him the ability to provided limited healing to himself and his allies. A huntsman's skills, martial arts, and animal companion make him a worthwhile addition to any encounter.
Abilities: A huntsman's main concerns with his ability scores are roughly the same as those for any other martial class. He gains some benefit from a high Wisdom score, in terms of both his Will save and his damage output with certain weapons, but he can still be effective without one. He has the choice of focusing on melee or ranged combat, which will determine whether Strength or Dexterity will be of primary importance, though archery-based huntsmen will often take the Weapon Finesse feat for when enemies get within their melee range. Intelligence gives a huntsman the skills he needs to survive alone in the wilderness and to get the most out his martial strikes, and Constitution is as important to him as it is to any character, moreso if he favors melee.
Races: Most huntsmen are humans and half-orcs, though whether that is due to necessity or those species' enjoyment of the hunt is often debated. Most other races are well-represented, however. Elves, half-elves, and halflings who prefer to leave near the wilds often become huntsmen, usually choosing Iron Rain over Tiger Claw to do their hunting from a distance. Dwarves prefer the more traditional martial classes, but the mountainsides and the Underdark have no less need of huntsmen than the darkest forest, and the dwarves that fill this need tend to focus on Devoted Spirit and Twin Spirit. Gnomes find the lifestyle unappealing, but they will occasionally study its Iron Rain and Life's Blood disciplines.
Alignment: A huntsman can be of any alignment, though the time they spend out in the wilderness makes chaotic and neutral huntsmen more common than lawful ones. As such, huntsmen of all alignments will generally feel greater solidarity with other huntsmen than they do with city-dwellers of their own alignment. In times of war, good and evil huntsmen will serve in armies of the same alignemnt, though, in times of peace, the former would prefer to hunt game rather than other sentient species. A neutral huntsman will likely either also hunt game or simply sell his deadly skills to whomever can offer the best price and many of them occasionally learn to regard everyone they meet as little more potential prey.
Starting Gold: 5d4x10 gp (125 gp).
Starting Age: As ranger.CLASS FEATURESOf all martial adepts, huntsmen have the most stances available, which allows them to vary their posture to meet whatever challenges they encounter. Depending on which discipline he focuses on, a hunter can be a mounted charger, stealthy hunter or fierce melee warrior.
Weapon and Armor Profiency: As a huntsman, you are proficient with simple and martial weapons and light and medium armor and shields (but not tower shields).
Maneuvers: You begin your career with knowledge of two martial maneuvers. The disciplines available to you are Devoted Spirit, Life's Blood (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8839707&postcount=24), and Twin Spirit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40991). You may also choose one of Iron Rain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8103297#post8103297) and Tiger Claw. Upon reaching 3rd level and every odd-numbered huntsman level thereafter, you can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one you already know. You can swap only a single maneuver at any given level.
Maneuvers Readied: You can ready both maneuvers known at 1st level, but as you advance in level and learn more maneuvers, you are able to ready more, but you must choose which maneuvers to ready. You may recover either all expended strikes or all expended counters and boosts as a single swift action which must be followed by a melee attack or a standard action to do nothing.
Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you. At 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th, you can choose additional stances.
Muscle Memory (Ex): A skilled huntsman reflects on and learns from his past kills to ensure victory in those that follow. You may meditate for 1 minute to designate one creature type (if you choose humanoid or outsider, you must also choose a subtype) that you have made an attack roll against within the last 24 hours gain a +1 on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against the same creature type or subtype. These bonus lasts until you sleep or meditate for another minute. These bonus increases by 1 at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level.
Animal Instinct (Ex): This functions as Wild Empathy, but the huntsman adds his Wisdom bonus instead of his Charisma bonus to the check.
Animal Companion (Ex): At 2nd level, a huntsman gains an animal companion which functions like the druid ability of the same name, except as noted here. The bonuses to hit dice and natural armor are reduced by half at all levels and it does not gain Share Spells, Evasion, Devotion, or Improved Evasion. Instead, at 3rd level and above, it gains Share Boosts and, at 12th level and above, it gains Share Stances. Any feat or prestige class which advance's a druid or ranger's animal companion can also advance a huntsman's. At 7th level, he can select a companion from the druid's 4th level alternate animal companion list, treating his level as 6 lower, at 13th he may select from the 7th level druid list treating his level as 12 less and at 19th level, he may select one from the 10th level druid list, treating his level as 18 less.
Share Boosts (Ex): At the huntsman's options, whenever he initiates a boost, he may have it also affect his animal companion if the animal companion is within 10 feet.
Share Stances (Ex): When within 5 feet of the huntsman, his animal companion may, as a move action, initiate any stance the huntsman knows that is of a level lower than his highest level stance. The stance automatically ends if the animal companion moves more than 20 feet from the huntsman.
{table=head]Class Level |Bonus HD |Natural Armor |Str/Dex Adj. |Bonus Tricks |Special
1st- 2nd |+0 |+0 |+0 |1 |Link
3rd- 5th |+1 |+1 |+1 |2 |Share Boosts
6th- 8th |+2 |+2 |+2 |3 |
9th-11th |+3 |+3 |+3 |4 |Multiattack
12th-14th |+4 |+4 |+4 |5 |
15th-17th |+5 |+5 |+5 |6 |Share Stances
18th-20th |+6 |+6 |+6 |7 |[/table]
Combat Discipline (Ex): A huntsman gains several class features to help get the most benefit out of his choice of discipline (Tiger Claw or Iron Rain)
feat: At 3rd level, a huntsman gains either Stalking Tiger* or Rain of Pain*, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.
weapons: At 8th level, he adds his Wisdom bonus, if positive, to his damage rolls when attacking with the associated weapons of his chosen discipline.
tactics: At 13th level, he gains either Reaping Talons or Adept Archer*, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.
stance: At 18th level, a huntsman may have two stances active at the same time, but only if one and only one of them is from his chosen discipline.HUNTSMEN IN THE GAMEDepending on their alignment and the manner in which they are first encountered, huntsmen can be aides, rivals or adversaries to a party, in the most extreme cases becoming guides or pursuers. Large huntsmen organizations are rare but some will be found as large hunting lodges or a first line of defense for a smaller nation and may be willing to hire a party for specific missions. Evil huntsmen organizations will often have turned to hunting humanoids rather than game animals and will likely appear as an assassin's guild. A member of such a guild or a huntsman with similar skills can make an interesting recurring villain as he stalks and lays traps for the party at every opportunity, perhaps creating other incidents which he knows will draw the party into a trap.
A huntsman character experts that he will be an asset to his party in any encounter in the wild and particularly in combat, but is aware that he could be a detriment in social encounters within the bounds of cities. As such, you should provide both encounters which have creatures the huntsman is the most familiar with as well as important NPCs who harbor inate distrust of those who choose to live their lives outside of "civilization."
Adaptation
Some huntsmen eschew formal training, relying on brute strength to achieve victory. To create a more barbarian-like huntsman, reduce the huntsman's Reflex save to poor, remove the Combat Discipline class features, and he must choose Tiger Claw instead of Iron Rain. Add Illiteracy, Rage, and Greater Rage as the barbarian class features, except that Rage is usable 1/day at 3rd level and an additional time per day every 5 levels after and Greater Rage is available at 13th level. At 6th level, if the animal companion is within 10 feet of the huntsman when he rages, the animal companion may rage as well.

Zaydos
2010-08-29, 11:21 AM
Okay a quick and dirty comparison to warblade:
Same HD
Same BAB
More Skill Points (strangely no Craft, not that it is ever used)
2 more maneuvers known at almost every level
1 less maneuver readied at almost every level
3 more stances
2 less disciplines known; but gets Devoted Spirit (one of the strongest) and either 3 homebrewed disciplines (don't know their power levels at all) or 2 and Tiger's Claw. Misses out on Diamond Mind and the awesome Iron Heart Surge but can take feats or a dip for that.
Gets the Warblade capstone ability two levels early with the limitation one stance has to be from Tiger's Claw or a specific homebrew discipline.
Gets 2 specified bonus feats, instead of 4 from a very limited list.

Lacks:
Uncanny (+ Improved) Dodge.
Int bonus to X rolls abilities.

Gains:
Animal Companion!!! Okay at -1 HD and a slight reduction to Str/Dex along with no (Improved) Evasion.
A good bonus to Attack and Damage when fighting anything of the same creature type as they've already killed that day. Which as creatures of a similar type tend to make up a single adventure is really good.
Wisdom (in addition to Str) to damage.

Final conclusion: Don't know the power levels of their disciplines but I'd say they look stronger than a warblade.

playswithfire
2010-08-29, 02:57 PM
Thanks for the feedback and looking at your comparison, I mostly agree with you; I need to scale it back a bit.

It should have Craft; a guy who spends most of his time in the wild needs to be able to make his own weapons and traps; I think I forgot it because, as you said, it's never used.

I want to keep the stances as that was part of the point; he should be the most adaptable, but I think I'll cut his maneuvers known by 1.

As for Learn by Doing, since he's already got WIS to damage (with certain weapons), what if it just gave an attack bonus and, in any given encounter, you had to choose one type/subtype to apply it against? Admittedly, if each encounter has only members of the same species, it's still very nice, but that should scale it back a bit.

Thanks again for your thoughts; any comments on the adaptation?

Aran Banks
2010-08-29, 06:50 PM
All classes have craft as a class skill, I believe, so it would be a good idea to follow the trend.

As for Learn By Doing... it's bothersome to keep track of each and every creature I've killed, especially by level 11, after I've gone through 130 encounters already... If you want something like this, make it Favored Enemy. That's easier to keep track of, doesn't give a to-hit benefit (so it doesn't clash with your level 8 ability), and has nifty out-of-combat benefits.

So do that. And then bring the hit die down to d10, because: a) d12 is meant strictly for barbarian-types (this guy isn't a barbarian-type), and b) It's overkill on the HP anyways.

Orzel
2010-08-29, 07:23 PM
Seems good.
I'm knock the HD down to d10.
I'd limit Learn by Doing to a certain number of enemies at a time, just to avoid the bookkeeping.

Also the name...

Hunt, hunt, hunt
He's the Huntsman
"Into action" is his cry
From the forest to the city
He will run there in a jiffy
To sock evil in the eye

Marty Feeb was a poor hunter
Hungry without dough
'Til the day he saved a chunky elf
From being eaten by a croooow

The elf rewarded Marty Feeb
With a magic sack of corn
He gained strength
and speed
and shiny teeth
And as the Huntsman was reborn

Hunt, hunt, hunt
He's the Huntsman
He'll whip the pants off the bad guys
If there's an emergency
Sound the Horn of Urgency
And summon the Huntsman
"Into action" is his cryyyyy!
Hunt.


I like it

Pechvarry
2010-08-29, 07:32 PM
Aran Banks: The Learn By Doing bonuses only last 'til the end of the day. It's easy enough to keep track of what you've killed in a given day.

As for the class: I like it a lot. Dial back the maneuvers and stances known a bit , as stated above, would be nice. But I'd also lower HD to d10 (though you could always bump it up to d12 for the barb adaptation) and here's the big one:

I really don't like an unconditional +wis to damage. But maybe I'm lacking scope on this.

Aran Banks
2010-08-29, 09:32 PM
Aran Banks: The Learn By Doing bonuses only last 'til the end of the day. It's easy enough to keep track of what you've killed in a given day.


X_X -*is obviously blind*-

I still prefer favored enemies... oh, and +WisMod is to damage. Wow, I fail.

Well... +WisMod to damage isn't all that helpful. I mean, you're not prioritizing your wisdom for any reason other than that (strength for stabbing people or dexterity for shooting, constitution for HPs because you're a-fightan', wisdom is third choice. And not even for any reason. You could take Int and be a skill monkey, or just spend ridiculous PB on Str/Dex and Con.) Of course, Zen Archery with that is nice.

EDIT: Learn by Doing could be "You can meditate for 1 minute to designate one type of monster that you have made an attack roll against within the last 24 hours (Monstrous Humanoid, Giant, Goblinoid, etc.) and gain +X on to-hit rolls and AC against them. This bonus lasts until you sleep or meditate for another minute."

Also less bookkeeping.

playswithfire
2010-08-29, 10:35 PM
Craft has been added as a class skill.

Maneuvers known has been knocked down a few pegs. In comparison to a warblade, it now has one less maneuver known, one less maneuver readied, one less discipline available and a worse recovery mechanism, in exchange for 3 extra stances. I like stances being his main thing as they reflect his ability to adapt to any situation so I'm keeping him as having more than any other adept (in ToB or that I've created; other homebrew may have more).

Hit dice; so far leaving it as a d12 because he is more or less a barbarian-type, in the self-sufficient, spending most of his time in the wild sense, so I feel the higher hit dice apply. I may flip on that, but as the most wilderness-centric of the 4 classes I've been working on, so far he keeps the d12.


Well... +WisMod to damage isn't all that helpful. I mean, you're not prioritizing your wisdom for any reason other than that (strength for stabbing people or dexterity for shooting, constitution for HPs because you're a-fightan', wisdom is third choice. And not even for any reason. You could take Int and be a skill monkey, or just spend ridiculous PB on Str/Dex and Con.) Of course, Zen Archery with that is nice.

Technically, you also need wisdom for Animal Instincts, but that's negligible. I could restrict it by making you also have to be in a stance of that discipline, which would actually tie in nicely with the 18th level ability, but you're already limited to having to wield one of 4-5 weapons to get the benefit, and, as you say, it is the only reason WIS is a priority (unless you multiclass swordsage).


EDIT: Learn by Doing could be "You can meditate for 1 minute to designate one type of monster that you have made an attack roll against within the last 24 hours (Monstrous Humanoid, Giant, Goblinoid, etc.) and gain +X on to-hit rolls and AC against them. This bonus lasts until you sleep or meditate for another minute."

Also less bookkeeping.

I like that and have adapted it into the description. It ends up being much easier to read and I've fluffed it as replaying past hunts in your mind to be more prepared for the current one, which seems to fit this class.

Also tentatively changed the name to muscle memory; learn by doing was a placeholder that sort of stuck. Unless people liked 'learn by doing' better, I think muscle memory makes a better name, particularly in light of the new text.

Thank you all for your comments.

Aran Banks
2010-08-29, 11:06 PM
Keep it the way it is. It can either be a handy synergizer's option or something useless.

HOWEVER, you should change the text so that people without a positive WisMod don't lose damage when they gain this ability. I mean, that would suck.

Still in favor of the d10. This class doesn't seem like it would create a character for standing in a circle of opponents and just taking the beating from everyone, like the barbarian, and that's what d12 represents. However, do as you please.

playswithfire
2010-08-29, 11:29 PM
Keep it the way it is. It can either be a handy synergizer's option or something useless.

HOWEVER, you should change the text so that people without a positive WisMod don't lose damage when they gain this ability. I mean, that would suck.

Still in favor of the d10. This class doesn't seem like it would create a character for standing in a circle of opponents and just taking the beating from everyone, like the barbarian, and that's what d12 represents. However, do as you please.

Good point; added an "if positive" clause; guess I took that for granted, but your right, it should be stated explicitly.

While the huntsman would ideally be the character stalking a target and leaping out to dispatch it quickly, things go wrong. I see him, if not necessarily surrounded by angry humanoids, being surprised by a pack of dire wolves or some other beasts seeking to scavenge his kill and he should be able to stand in their midst, survive, and emerge victorious.

playswithfire
2010-08-31, 05:48 PM
One last thing I'd like an opinion on: is the adaptation a fair trade off? I wanted the cost to be a little on the high side so not every huntsmen would automatically trade for rage.

Thoughts?

Zaydos
2010-08-31, 06:28 PM
Not the best optimizer but I wouldn't take Rage; sure it's a nice +3 to hit and +4 damage (+10 damage if you PA away the to hit bonus) but you're animal companion becomes uselessly weak, you lose Wis to damage, and you lose access to one of the strongest disciplines (Devoted Spirit) and have access to one less discipline.

playswithfire
2010-08-31, 10:37 PM
Hmm, maybe I overdid it. What if I changed it so that the raging huntsman's disciplines were the same as the standard huntsman's except that he has to choose Tiger Claw and not Iron Rain?

Zaydos
2010-08-31, 10:45 PM
The rage variant is actually closer in power IMO to warblade as is so perhaps it would be better to get the other one closer to its level than vice versa. I'd suggest just halving the normal versions animal companion but then they'd both just have a non-functional animal companion.

playswithfire
2010-09-02, 11:14 PM
Downgraded the animal companion on the original to still slightly better than the ranger's which the adaptation keeps and added illiteracy to the adaptation.

Realized I should also post the homebrew feats that the huntsman can choose.

3rd level feats
Stalking Tiger
You taunt an opponent with one blade while positioning to strike with another.
Prerequisite: one Tiger Claw maneuver
Benefit: While making a full attack with two Tiger Claw weapons, the enhancement bonuses of which differ by no more than one, you may, in place of an attack, flourish with your off-hand weapon by making an attack roll against AC 15 + half your character level, rounded down. If it succeeds, you may make a 5 ft step. Standard penalties for fighting with two weapons apply.

Rain of Pain
Your training with the Steel Rain weapons has taught you where to place them for greater effect.
Prerequisites: One Steel Rain maneuver
Benefit: While in a Steel Rain stance, you may add your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier on damage rolls when attacking with Steel Rain weapons within 30 feet.
Special: Rain of Pain can be used in place of Point Blank Shot to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability. If this gives you a new option that would apply to all ranged and thrown weapons, it instead applies only to Steel Rain weapons.
13th level tactical featAdept Archer [Tactical]
Prerequisites: BAB +6, Point Blank Shot, two Steel Rain maneuvers
Benefit: The Adept Archer feat allows for the use of three tactical options.
Painted Target: To use this option, you must hit and deal damage to an opponent with a Steel Rain strike. In the next round, you gain a bonus on attack rolls against that opponent equal to the level of the strike.
Parting Shot: To use this option, an opponent must miss you in melee and you must use a move action on your turn to move out of his melee range. If you do, you may make a single ranged attack as part of that movement.
Reveal the Hidden: To use this option, you must make a Spot check as a full-round action. Each opponent who attempted to hide from you provokes an attack of opportunity from you.

The Glyphstone
2010-09-03, 01:25 AM
Typo in the Animal Companion:



Animal Companion (Ex): At 2nd level, a huntsman gains an animal companion which functions like the druid ability of the same huntsman, except as noted here.

Pretty sure that should be "same level".

playswithfire
2010-09-03, 06:07 AM
Typo in the Animal Companion:

Pretty sure that should be "same level".

Thanks; "same name", actually. Find and replace error.