New Class: Mime

[Mystify]

I designed this class for fun, but I think it is (somewhat) balanced. I present the Mime:

Mime Class (https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1OIEhAKXEnSKBbNLVlOY1-5CNlPYe0N_n3w8rcsqd52A&hl=en)

I welcome all feedback on it, esp. from a balance perspective. My main concern is combining it with Vow of Poverty, since it has similarities to monk of being fairly equipment independent. However, since Vow of Poverty tends to be considered broken itself, the problem is probably best fixed by DMs disallowing the vow.
After closer consideration, I don't think it actually is subject to extra vulnerability to Vow of poverty.

[imp_fireball]

I still don't understand how vow of poverty is broken - any GM can easily lower the cost of magic items by a small percentage so that players without the vow can compete with it.

Also, at epic level, players are typically supposed to be smart with magic items and the vow gives no flexibility or choice to a player - the fact that it's a feat is another thing too.

[Mystify]

I still don't understand how vow of poverty is broken - any GM can easily lower the cost of magic items by a small percentage so that players without the vow can compete with it.

Also, at epic level, players are typically supposed to be smart with magic items and the vow gives no flexibility or choice to a player - the fact that it's a feat is another thing too.

For something like fighter it isn't. However, which something like monk you are sacrificing magic items that you weren't using and end up far more powerful in the end. For instance, a monk gets a armour bonus that replaces the armour they don't wear, they gain extra feats, deflection bonus's, natural armour that a monk wouldn't normally be able to get, DR, energy resistances, true seeing...
They may balance out cost-wise for a normal character, but a monk generally has to pay more for their enchantment bonus's than normal characters(compare the price of a amulet of might fists to a +1 sword, or a +8 bracers of armour compared to a +5 chain shirt). This ends up making them more powerful.

Mimes are not reliant on buying magic weapons and armour for their saves, however after reading vow of poverty closer, it doesn't stack with their intrinsic abilities. They gain armour, but they could cast greater mage armour for more effect. They get enchantment bonus's on their weapons, but they get that anyways. I think it isn't actually a particular problem for a mime.

[Temotei]

For something like fighter it isn't. However, which something like monk you are sacrificing magic items that you weren't using and end up far more powerful in the end. For instance, a monk gets a armour bonus that replaces the armour they don't wear, they gain extra feats, deflection bonus's, natural armour that a monk wouldn't normally be able to get, DR, energy resistances, true seeing...
They may balance out cost-wise for a normal character, but a monk generally has to pay more for their enchantment bonus's than normal characters(compare the price of a amulet of might fists to a +1 sword, or a +8 bracers of armour compared to a +5 chain shirt). This ends up making them more powerful.

Pfft. Monks need all the help they can get...Vow of Poverty doesn't do enough.

Really, I wouldn't ever worry about Vow of Poverty unbalancing a game, unless you, like, never give out magic items or any gold to buy them with.

[Mystify]

Vow of poverty isn't really the issue here. I want feedback on the class.
Edit: I just realized I had uploaded an older version of the class. I updated the . link. It removes some potential cheese you could do with weapon enchantments.

[Mulletmanalive]

It would be better to make the check for Pantomimes into Caster Level + Stat. It's less abusale as a low level character can gather the 2,500gp for a +5 skill item fairly quickly. Made worse because 3.5 removed the prerequisites from crafting said items...

[Milskidasith]

As a class that can automatically replicate all spells below seventh level without any costs, I'm pretty sure this is solidly T1 or T2 just because of that, even if it has pretty terrible ninth level spells.

Anyway, the pantomimed weapons and gear are rather... meh. At level 20, you don't want +5s, you want +10 (totals).

[Mystify]

It would be better to make the check for Pantomimes into Caster Level + Stat. It's less abusale as a low level character can gather the 2,500gp for a +5 skill item fairly quickly. Made worse because 3.5 removed the prerequisites from crafting said items...
I agree that the skill items are problematic for balancing. Caster Level + stat may work better with that in mind. That makes the chance of perform a pantomime 50%+5%/charisma modifier at the first level you can cast it.



As a class that can automatically replicate all spells below seventh level without any costs, I'm pretty sure this is solidly T1 or T2 just because of that, even if it has pretty terrible ninth level spells.

Anyway, the pantomimed weapons and gear are rather... meh. At level 20, you don't want +5s, you want +10 (totals).
It can only replicate spells below 7th level if they are copying another caster. So if somebody throws a fireball at a high level mime, they can throw a fireball back. I should probably add in the limit that the replicate casting doesn't omit the XP or material cost.

The pantomimed gear are also better than most classes that create weapons on the fly. It also lines up with the (enchantment bonusx3) requirement for actually creating the weapon. Under a strict interpretation of the rules, a +10 weapon can only be made by a level 30 caster, and hence would only be found as artifact-like loot by high level adventurers. The fact that it can act as ghost-touch at will makes it effectively a + 7 weapon, and you have greater flexibility in which special abilities are in use, which makes it effectively a +8 at the end, due to the fact that all of your enchantment bonus's should always be effective, unlike a normal weapon which likely will have some aspect of it that is useless at the time. Beyond this, they are not a fully martial class, so are not meant to be as powerful in a normal fight. They are meant to fall someplace between a cleric and fighter in terms of combat capability.

[Mystify]

I have updated the class to fix some up the issues raised.

[grarrrg]

Mostly Multi-classing questions:

mime can take feats requiring a proficiency with a weapon for a pantomimed version of the weapon. This bonus would not apply if the mime were to wield a real weapon

What happens if I take some levels in Fighter and take, say, Weapon Focus Rapier, then take a level in Mime, can I still get a bonus with an actual Rapier? Does my feat automatically change to Weapon Focus: Pantomimed Rapier? Or do I automatically get both?


Summon instrument
-the instrument is invisible, and cannot be heard by non-mimes

If the Mime in question is also multiclassed as a Bard, can non-mimes benefit from his 'songs'? Can other Mimes benefit from his 'songs'?

[Mystify]

Weapon focus:rapier will not help a pantomimed rapier. However, if you took a level in mime, gaining the proficiencies with pantomimed weapons, and then multiclassed into fighter, you could take weapon focus: pantomimed rapier and other similar feats. Think of pantomimed weapons as a special case of exotic weapons that the class gives you proficiency with. If a class gives you an exotic weapon prof(say, hand crossbow from rouge), if you take fighter first, you don't meet the pre-reqs for weapon-foucs:hand crossbow. If you take rouge then fighter, you have the proficiency and can take the focus.

If you wanted to work a Mime into an existing campaign, you could rule that their weapon focus's and similar feats can be transformed into the pantomimed versions, but if Mimes are available from the start it should follow normal rules.

If you had a mime-bard, the mime cannot use any bard abilities that rely on sound (Bardic music, bard spells, etc) without breaking their vow of silence. However, since the summoned instrument can be heard by mimes, they would be capable of giving a bonus to other mimes, and since it is otherwise silent they do not violate their oath.

[grarrrg]

Think of pantomimed weapons as a special case of exotic weapons that the class gives you proficiency with. If a class gives you an exotic weapon prof(say, hand crossbow from rouge)

(Short story, I kinda like the class, so I'm trying to think about things you forgot/didn't think of)

So basically, if i'm a FighterX/MimeX, Two weapon fighting with a Rapier and a PanRapier, I'd need to take Weapon Focus Rapier "twice" (once as normal, once as Pantomined) to get full benefits? (the specific feat is just an example)

Also, I keep thinking there should be some "Illusion -> Disbelieve Illusion" involved. Like, if you attack someone, then they have a chance (will-save?) to disbelieve that you have a weapon. If they make the save, but get hit anyway, half damage? Quarter damage? Increase the DC by an amount if they can see Invisibility, and for everytime they take damage from the weapon that they don't think is there.

Another option, would be to streamline it into a Prestige class, with an Illusion casting requirement, base Pantomimes known off of caster level or something...
Yeah, I like that idea, it'd be an Eldritch Knight for Gnomes in facepaint!!

[Mystify]

(Short story, I kinda like the class, so I'm trying to think about things you forgot/didn't think of)

So basically, if i'm a FighterX/MimeX, Two weapon fighting with a Rapier and a PanRapier, I'd need to take Weapon Focus Rapier "twice" (once as normal, once as Pantomined) to get full benefits? (the specific feat is just an example)


Yes, you would have to take it twice(or go into Tempest). I imagine that using a real weapon and pretending to use it are very different things. Being a better fighter may mean you are better at pretending to fight, but that is represented by BaB. Actually specializing in a weapon requires knowing the weight of the weapon, how its momentum affects your swings, etc, so a pantomimed weapon and a real weapon use different feats.



Also, I keep thinking there should be some "Illusion -> Disbelieve Illusion" involved. Like, if you attack someone, then they have a chance (will-save?) to disbelieve that you have a weapon. If they make the save, but get hit anyway, half damage? Quarter damage? Increase the DC by an amount if they can see Invisibility, and for everytime they take damage from the weapon that they don't think is there.

Another option, would be to streamline it into a Prestige class, with an Illusion casting requirement, base Pantomimes known off of caster level or something...
Yeah, I like that idea, it'd be an Eldritch Knight for Gnomes in facepaint!!
Their weapons aren't illusionary, they are force. Mime is not focused on illusion, it is focused on force-effects. Making a will save for reduced damage would cripple their already weak martial capabilities. The fact that they are using force effects is one of their strengths.

[Dead_Jester]

Great concept, but replicate casting could get nasty. You could use every single buff of level 7 and under, and if you can use metamagic on them, then go to town with extend or persist.

Also, pantomined equipement is almost unusable at early levels, because the dc's are too hight. I'd say to reduce it to 5 + craft dc, but that is just me.

Another thing, this class has 3/4 bab, martial wep. prof., but no armor and no way to make some (or something to counter-balance that). As written, they can't even use armor they make with pantomimed equipment.

[Teutonic Knight]

NOOOOOOOOOOOO. You have posted the same idea before me. :smalltongue: And we both called it pantomine and everything. Only mine doesn't have extra spells. And it's a prestige class. Oh well, still working on it and will post it eventually.

[Mystify]

Great concept, but replicate casting could get nasty. You could use every single buff of level 7 and under, and if you can use metamagic on them, then go to town with extend or persist.

Also, pantomined equipement is almost unusable at early levels, because the dc's are too hight. I'd say to reduce it to 5 + craft dc, but that is just me.

Another thing, this class has 3/4 bab, martial wep. prof., but no armor and no way to make some (or something to counter-balance that). As written, they can't even use armor they make with pantomimed equipment.

Replicate casting is a spell from spell compendeum. You duplicate a spell that another caster just cast. Its a mimic ability. You can't just cast any spell, you can only mimic what another caster just did. Otherwise it would be overpowered.

Pantomimed equipment is not supposed to be fully effective at low levels. Purchasing equipment is a concern at low levels, and I don't want a single mime to negate that. At higher levels it is more feasible that a party could have access to whatever they feel like, and mime gets access to it as a class skill for free. This keeps the balance of the game while having a lot of interesting applications and flavor for the mime class.

You do have mage armour and shield as 1st level pantomimes. Later on they have greater mage armour. Later they can get quicken and quicken them, making them even more useful. Rings of protection and amulets of natural armour are as effective as normal, as well as dex.

[grarrrg]

Another thing, this class has 3/4 bab, martial wep. prof., but no armor and no way to make some (or something to counter-balance that).

What about giving them Proficiency Pantomimed Shield (but not PanTower Shield). Pantomiming armor would be difficult, about all you could do is "put it on", but a shield you actively hold your arm in front of you, I can see that working. Granted they can still 'cast' the Shield spell, but a PanShield would still work in an anti-magic field (yes?), and maybe make it so you can transfer some of your Weapon bonus to the Shield? Disallow the Animated enchantment though.

[Mystify]

I think the normal decision on whether to do a two-handed weapon, two weapon fighting, or one-handed and shield should still exist. Allowing a pantomimed shield would help for that. The question is, how should the enchantment bonus for it work? If it shares the enchantment bonus of the weapon, then it hampers your offensive capabilities to use it. If it gets full enchantment bonus, then using it becomes very powerful.

Maybe I should allow making either a offhand weapon or a shield, but they would have 1/2 the enchantment bonus of the primary weapon. Known special abilities to apply would be shared between them, so learning a shield enchantment means you have 1 less option for your weapon. You would only be able to make a offhand or a shield, but not both.

Pantomimed objects, including their weapons, are magical and do not function in a anti-magic field.

[grarrrg]

Pantomimed objects, including their weapons, are magical and do not function in a anti-magic field.

If you want, there is precedent to have them still exist in an anti-magic field.
Soulknife (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm) Mind Blade, last paragraph, Soulknifes are allowed a Will save to see if their psionic-powered Mind Blade can exist in an Anti-Psionic field.

I vote for *yoink*

Maybe limit it to one sustained panto-item, or maybe one sustained panto-item per hand, at a penalty to the save? If the Mime makes the save, then they can keep their weapon, if they beat the save by (5? 10?) they are allowed a second panto-item.

Thoughts?

[imp_fireball]

However, which something like monk you are sacrificing magic items that you weren't using and end up far more powerful in the end.

Except that monks are terrible. Except that GMs can easily come up with magic items suitable for monks (magical special monk weapons being the most obvious choice; other magical weapons that appear in the form of wearable items might only activate on an unarmed strike).

[Mystify]

If you want, there is precedent to have them still exist in an anti-magic field.
Soulknife (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm) Mind Blade, last paragraph, Soulknifes are allowed a Will save to see if their psionic-powered Mind Blade can exist in an Anti-Psionic field.

I vote for *yoink*

Maybe limit it to one sustained panto-item, or maybe one sustained panto-item per hand, at a penalty to the save? If the Mime makes the save, then they can keep their weapon, if they beat the save by (5? 10?) they are allowed a second panto-item.

Thoughts?
That might be useful. Having them rendered completely useless by an anti-magic field had bothered me.

What was our take on the extra pantomimed weapon/shield balancing?

[grarrrg]

What was our take on the extra pantomimed weapon/shield balancing?

Full-bonus was too good, and made the Two-Handed option look worse.
Shared bonus was poor, spreading the already limited bonus too thin to be of much use.

1/2 of the bonus (round up) seems good to me.

Also, with the "communication" section (Perform Pantomime + Sense motive)
Maybe allow "listeners" to use Sense Motive OR (if they have it) Perform Pantomime. This would greatly improve communication among Mimes, who are likely to max Per-Panto, but only spend a couple in Sense Motive.

[Mystify]

That makes a fair bit of sense.The only problem I have is that everything in D&D rounds down, so I don't want to violate that.

I also realized that I need to deal with hands open. Technically, as it is, a mime using both hands to pantomime weapons can't perform pantomimes. If that was the case, a mime would effectively need quick-draw so they could drop their pantomimed weapon, perform their pantomime, then re-create their weapon. Any thoughts on how that should work?

[grarrrg]

If that was the case, a mime would effectively need quick-draw so they could drop their pantomimed weapon, perform their pantomime, then re-create their weapon. Any thoughts on how that should work?

Maybe they just "set it down" on a convienient nearby "shelf" that just happens to be at hand level?
Maybe give them the option of 'suspending' panto-items while pantomiming, and they instantly reappear when done?

Also, when writing up the "off-hand/shield half bonus" rules, maybe make it so that the player has the option of the off hand getting the full bonus and the main hand getting half? Sometimes defense is the best offense, and giving your shield the bigger boost would be best.

[Mystify]

I agree that choosing which hand to enchant fully makes sense.

Suspending the weapon at will could work. Alternatively, it could be a free action to dismiss your weapon, so you can free up your hands on a whim. This would make quick-draw esp. appealing to them, since they could then re-create their weapon on the spot.

I am considering making some mime-specific equipment. As has been pointed out, a +6 at level 20 is underwhelming. I am thinking of a series of items that allows higher bonuses, ranging for a +1 additional enchantment to a +4 additional. Obviously these need to be much more expensive that a simple +1 or +4 weapon, but I am not sure how expensive they should be. Thoughts?

[grarrrg]

Does the Mime count as a caster for prestige classes? His spell list looks mostly arcane, shouldn't be much problem having him count as an arcane caster.
It'd be pretty minor, but it would open up more options.

[Mystify]

A mime is arcane.