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Furnok
2010-09-02, 03:25 PM
I amlooking for a way to kill a devil forever, besides going to hell and killing them is there anyother way? We don't use any of the obsure book, only books from W.O.C.

Sinfonian
2010-09-02, 03:42 PM
As I recall, using a (Calling) spell to summon them, rather than a (Summoning) spell, should allow you to actually kill an outsider. Perhaps something like a Soul Bind afterwords?

Darklord Xavez
2010-09-02, 03:43 PM
Planar Ally/Planar Binding/any other calling spell. Kill it if its not just summoned and it dies permanently.
-Xavez

Tyndmyr
2010-09-02, 03:44 PM
Trap the Soul?

hamishspence
2010-09-02, 03:51 PM
According to Complete Divine, a sphere of annihilation destroys the soul of its victim- maybe pushing a devil into one of those will destroy it completely?


Planar Ally/Planar Binding/any other calling spell. Kill it if its not just summoned and it dies permanently.
-Xavez

FC1 and FC2 have slightly different rules- some devils and demons can survive being killed outside their home plane, even if Called- however, generally, they get demoted, or cannot come back for a long period- maybe a century.

Darklord Xavez
2010-09-02, 03:57 PM
According to Complete Divine, a sphere of annihilation destroys the soul of its victim- maybe pushing a devil into one of those will destroy it completely?



FC1 and FC2 have slightly different rules- some devils and demons can survive being killed outside their home plane, even if Called- however, generally, they get demoted, or cannot come back for a long period- maybe a century.

FC1? FC2? Please explain.
-Xavez

hamishspence
2010-09-02, 04:00 PM
Fiendish Codex 1: Hordes of the Abyss, and Fiendish Codex 2: Tyrants of the Nine Hells. They go into some depth on devils and demons, how they get promoted and demoted, and so on.

They may, however, despite being published by WoTC, count as "obscure books".

Darklord Xavez
2010-09-02, 04:03 PM
Fiendish Codex 1: Hordes of the Abyss, and Fiendish Codex 2: Tyrants of the Nine Hells. They go into some depth on devils and demons, how they get promoted and demoted, and so on.

They may, however, despite being published by WoTC, count as "obscure books".

Like Lords of Madness?
-Xavez

hamishspence
2010-09-02, 04:06 PM
Or Libris Mortis or Draconomicon. WoTC has done quite a few books which expand on various creatures.

Darklord Xavez
2010-09-02, 05:05 PM
Or Libris Mortis or Draconomicon. WoTC has done quite a few books which expand on various creatures.

More obscure books:

Never mind, I'm starting a thread.
-Xavez

Furnok
2010-09-02, 05:07 PM
Fiendish Codex 1: Hordes of the Abyss, and Fiendish Codex 2: Tyrants of the Nine Hells. They go into some depth on devils and demons, how they get promoted and demoted, and so on.

They may, however, despite being published by WoTC, count as "obscure books".

Those books are not obscure, I was reffering to books from Mongoose Publishing and other non Wizards of the Coast books

Jack_Simth
2010-09-02, 05:11 PM
I amlooking for a way to kill a devil forever, besides going to hell and killing them is there anyother way? We don't use any of the obsure book, only books from W.O.C.
Well, the default rule in D&D with Outsiders (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType) is:
Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual natureóits soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, donít work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.Now, there's also a bit on how they got to be where they are. If the critter got here by way of a Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning) effect, then:
A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it canít be summoned again. you've got a problem. However, if it is brought forth by a Calling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#calling) effect:
Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spelland when you kill it, it dies.

Now, True Resurrection could bring him back, but there are ways to (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trapTheSoul.htm) deal with that (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulBind.htm) little problem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/imprisonment.htm).

Calmar
2010-09-02, 06:43 PM
Trap the Soul?

An outsider is its soul.

Zaydos
2010-09-02, 06:46 PM
Spell Compendium also adds Revive Outsider to the list of ways to bring one back.

But unless the 2e/Fiendish Codex fluff/rule things are in effect then killing it when it is Called will kill it as dead as killing any other creature kills them (and actually a little more).

Jack_Simth
2010-09-02, 06:50 PM
But unless the 2e/Fiendish Codex fluff/rule things are in effect then killing it when it is Called will kill it as dead as killing any other creature kills them (and actually a little more).
Sort of. It takes different effects, but it's less expensive to hire a Wizard to cast Limited Wish than it is to hire a Cleric to cast Raise Dead (Seriously - Raise Dead costs 5,000 materials plus 450 for the spell itself; Limited Wish costs 1,500 gp to cover the 300 xp, and 910 gp for the spell itself).

Lord Vampyre
2010-09-02, 08:40 PM
An outsider is its soul.

This is highly dependent upon how someone feels the multiverse is constructed. Not necessarily true.

Malakar
2010-09-02, 11:25 PM
Smoky Confinement on either Called or Summoned Outsider is pretty damn good at the killings.

It actually makes basically anything but Wish not work, if you can hide the confinement thing well enough.

Eventually it will probably get out.

My favorite method of delaying that:

Build an elaborate Dungeon, at the very end, put the Wine bottle on a pedestal with a giant sign saying "This is the Tomes Guardian, pull the cap to release. Or not, your choice." And then have an Elemental Guardian that you explain to "This is the Guardian, beating him doesn't do anything for the adventurers. Show them the treasure if they don't pull the plug." And he should be low enough level that they can feel free to mind read/zone of truth him as much as they want.

Cruiser1
2010-09-03, 12:30 AM
it's less expensive to hire a Wizard to cast Limited Wish than it is to hire a Cleric to cast Raise Dead (Seriously - Raise Dead costs 5,000 materials plus 450 for the spell itself; Limited Wish costs 1,500 gp to cover the 300 xp, and 910 gp for the spell itself).That's true in general, although doesn't work if you want to actually cast Raise Dead. The spell Limited Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm) says, "When a limited wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 1,000 gp, you must provide that component." Raise Dead has the material component of "Diamonds worth a total of least 5,000 gp", so hiring a Wizard to cast Limited Wish to duplicate Raise Dead will cost an extra 5000.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-03, 07:29 AM
That's true in general, although doesn't work if you want to actually cast Raise Dead. The spell Limited Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm) says, "When a limited wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 1,000 gp, you must provide that component." Raise Dead has the material component of "Diamonds worth a total of least 5,000 gp", so hiring a Wizard to cast Limited Wish to duplicate Raise Dead will cost an extra 5000.
Correct when considered in isolation, but check context: We're talking about raising outsiders. When you're using Limited Wish to raise a normal ally, it's a bum deal (you're stuck duplicating Raise Dead, which requires the materials anyway). When you're using it to Raise an Outsider, Limited Wish is a good deal (as you're not duplicating the effects of a specific defined spell, you're just using a method that's explicitly called out in the creature type).

If you don't have a Cleric available, don't have material components available, and can't hire anyone, you can still use Limited Wish to duplicate Reincarnate... although your party will hate you if you go that route.

Malbordeus
2010-09-03, 07:47 AM
Destruction on said 'Called' Outsider should do the job. or use feast of the barghess on its body after you've done it. or disintegrating the remains, equally animating the remains as an undead creature is a quite ammusing way of preventing it from coming back. would dimensional lock prevent them from returning to the 9 hells do we think?

i think a little more in the way of backstory might help in figuring out infalliable ways of eliminating the devil.

i think the main difference between daemons and devils in the fiendish codexi are -
Demons actually die when dead, with one of a table of random effects, most of which are messy. but the abyss spawns infinite ammounts of daemons, so it doesnt matter much.

Devils dont die when dead, they get reverted to turd forms and get mocked by their peers/former underlings, this is mostly to ballance them in the blood war with the daemons, otherwise they'd simply be over-run.

kind of annoying, but if you keep calling him and stabbing him,eventually he becomes a mindless Mane. or gets fed up.

"Limited Wish to duplicate Reincarnate... " - funtimes :D

Malakar
2010-09-03, 09:51 AM
If you don't have a Cleric available, don't have material components available, and can't hire anyone, you can still use Limited Wish to duplicate Reincarnate... although your party will hate you if you go that route.

Unless they are anyone who doesn't care about their physical body or race.

IE and (Gray) Elven Wizard who didn't take anything specifically elven, or a Spellscale Sorcerer.

Furnok
2010-09-03, 01:13 PM
Ok theback story is that the devils have opened portals between the abyss and celestia. So now demons are invadeing heaven. Meanwhile thedevils are invading the prime material their plans are to turn the prime material into a barracks to wage war on the victor between the abyss and celestia. Part of the group is working on the portals and theother part of the group is working on the envasion. My plan right now is to kill Bel, not just send him to hell but KILL my thought is if we can kill him his generals will fight amongst themselves buying us enough time to launch a counter strike.

Zaydos
2010-09-03, 01:17 PM
Well it depends upon what fluff is being used for the Devils. With FCII all you'd need is to kill him when he's called/traveled off-plane by means other than being summoned and he'd revert to a Lemure. That is if it is the real Bel at all (FCII while having stats for Bel notes that these stats can also be just a high level Aspect if the DM desires).

If it's Core fluff only then he dies like anything else in the above situations.

If it's neither... Trap the Soul by some means it's probably your best bet.

Furnok
2010-09-03, 01:22 PM
It is actually Bel himself not an aspect and if we just killhim normally he will just goback to hell and appoint one of his 9 pit fiend generals to lead the army.

Zaydos
2010-09-03, 01:29 PM
Then Trap the Soul (or similar) is probably your best bet.