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View Full Version : Would you approve this spell, as a DM?



WarKitty
2010-09-03, 08:01 AM
Looking at a custom researched spell:

True Reincarnate

Level: Drd 6
Casting Time: 10 minutes

This spell functions as reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm), except that the new body is of the same race as the previous incarnation.

Material Component
Rare oils and unguents worth a total of least 5,000 gp, spread over the remains.

It's a bit of a duplication of Raise Dead, but we're in a no-cleric party and the DM is rather stingy with purchasing magic.

Kobold-Bard
2010-09-03, 08:04 AM
Maybe let either the caster or the recipient choose their form? If they still want to come back as they were then that's fine, just a way to differenciate it from Raise Dead and keep the Reincarnate flavour.

WarKitty
2010-09-03, 08:08 AM
Maybe let either the caster or the recipient choose their form? If they still want to come back as they were then that's fine, just a way to differenciate it from Raise Dead and keep the Reincarnate flavour.

Possibly. My concern is whether that could be considered a power upgrade to the spell (as you could choose the most powerful form).

Saph
2010-09-03, 08:16 AM
Power-wise it's fine, but it's a bit boring. I think it's more interesting if druidic and clerical magic works differently when it comes to raising the dead - druids can do it sooner and more cheaply, but with a major drawback. So I'd probably say no.

Malbordeus
2010-09-03, 08:20 AM
its a drawback? :P

cheezewizz2000
2010-09-03, 08:30 AM
Perhaps provide a more restricted list of reincarnateables, all of the humanoid type. Less chance of coming back as a kobold or bugbear in that case. Switch the name up to greater reincarnate and then produce a 4th (or maybe even 3rd) level spell with a much broader list of possible results (say, including badgers). Make a "true" reincarnate a 9th level spell. The main "issue" with reincarnate is that you come back with a young adult body, so you can effectively live forever if you have a druid buddy. Just kill yourself when you hit venerable, and come back with mental stats intact, and your physical stats appropriate to your new form. If you keep doing this for 1000s of years, your mental stats will steadily climb through the roof (though much much slower than with other cheese).

Kobold-Bard
2010-09-03, 08:34 AM
...

Then an Inevitable comes along and chops your face off.

JeminiZero
2010-09-03, 08:36 AM
From a purely mechanical perspective, I would peg the price to be higher than Raise Dead's 5,000 gp, and possibly higher even than Resurrection's 10,000 gp. Like Resurrection, Reincarnate can work so long as it has a small fragment of the original creature (unlike Raise Dead which requires an intact corpse).

Furthermore, Reincarnate returns the subject to Young Adult Boy and can be used to undo ageing penalties. However, unlike Ressurection, (True) Reincarnate does not work on targets killed by Death Effects, or turned into an Undead. One might argue that these factors balance out, and thusly True Reincarnate should be the same level and cost as Ressurection.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-03, 08:40 AM
Putting it on par with Rez seems appropriate.

bokodasu
2010-09-03, 08:42 AM
I wouldn't allow it; Druids shouldn't get a more powerful, less expensive resurrection ability. I would probably allow a karma-adjusting spell that you could cast before reincarnating a body - let it double the chance of getting the same race you had, or increase the chances of getting x number of bodies and reduce the chances of y number, or something like that. (Could also be fun for non-allies; "Sorry we had to reincarnate the prince as a kobold; couple more deaths and he should be right as rain.")

BlackSheep
2010-09-03, 08:46 AM
Are you running a no cleric party because of the setting or because of player selection? If you just happen to have no clerics in your group, it doesn't seem unreasonable to supply the group with a replacement for some of the cleric's mechanics for the purpose of maintaining game flow.

Now, if the DM has restricted clerics and wants to run a more 'Hardcore' die-and-you're-out game, that's a horse of a different color.

WarKitty
2010-09-03, 09:09 AM
Are you running a no cleric party because of the setting or because of player selection? If you just happen to have no clerics in your group, it doesn't seem unreasonable to supply the group with a replacement for some of the cleric's mechanics for the purpose of maintaining game flow.

Now, if the DM has restricted clerics and wants to run a more 'Hardcore' die-and-you're-out game, that's a horse of a different color.

Our cleric quit. I mostly wanted a way to avoid the "your wizard has been reincarnated as a gnoll, you now have a LA and -2 to your casting stat" problem without delaying the spell a huge number of levels - I don't want to have to push it to a 9th level spell when a cleric can do it at 5.

Lysander
2010-09-03, 09:22 AM
Perhaps you can simply add a bit more druid flavor. For example make it so the spell can only be cast in a forest glade. It takes 24 hours, during which the trees and grasses connected their roots to the corpse and deliver nutrients to rebuild its tissue cell by cell.

Tetrasodium
2010-09-03, 10:06 AM
Our cleric quit. I mostly wanted a way to avoid the "your wizard has been reincarnated as a gnoll, you now have a LA and -2 to your casting stat" problem without delaying the spell a huge number of levels - I don't want to have to push it to a 9th level spell when a cleric can do it at 5.

I'd include Lysander's suggestion and make it 5th or 6th level depending on the party level. Maybe add a temporary shaken debuff or something that kicks in any time the subject does something to willfully harm nature's balance any more than absolutely necessary to survive for a few days/weeks after being brought back. Things like walking on grass or killing a boar as humanely as possible for food are acceptable, casting a fireball in a forest is not.

WarKitty
2010-09-03, 10:08 AM
I'd include Lysander's suggestion and make it 5th or 6th level depending on the party level. Maybe add a temporary shaken debuff or something that kicks in any time the subject does something to willfully harm nature's balance any more than absolutely necessary to survive for a few days/weeks after being brought back. Things like walking on grass or killing a boar as humanely as possible for food are acceptable, casting a fireball in a forest is not.

Hmmm not bad. I might even be willing to include some sort of minor quest that the subject has to undertake immediately after being reincarnated.

Malbordeus
2010-09-03, 10:11 AM
you can always just maximise your reincarnate or empower it to evade some of the sillier options. :P

Haarkla
2010-09-03, 01:04 PM
Looking at a custom researched spell:

True Reincarnate

Level: Drd 6
Casting Time: 10 minutes

This spell functions as reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm), except that the new body is of the same race as the previous incarnation.

Material Component
Rare oils and unguents worth a total of least 5,000 gp, spread over the remains.

It's a bit of a duplication of Raise Dead, but we're in a no-cleric party and the DM is rather stingy with purchasing magic.
No. It's too boring.

If what you want to do is avoid particular forms, what I would do is create an alternative reincarnate table without those forms, and including other acceptable forms and effects, such as change sex, reroll any 3 ability scores (players choice), random spell like ability + drawback, ect.

Devils_Advocate
2010-09-06, 09:03 AM
I'd try the following:

"Yo, DM, since the reincarnate spell is borked, howzabout instead of getting that, Druids get the same resurrection spells that Clerics do, but one level later. Like with cure spells. That cool?"

But as to the question in the thread title: Would I, as DM, allow a Druid to have a spell that's basically resurrection, but takes up a spell slot one lower and only has half the cost in material components? No.

WarKitty
2010-09-06, 09:29 AM
I'd try the following:

"Yo, DM, since the reincarnate spell is borked, howzabout instead of getting that, Druids get the same resurrection spells that Clerics do, but one level later. Like with cure spells. That cool?"

But as to the question in the thread title: Would I, as DM, allow a Druid to have a spell that's basically resurrection, but takes up a spell slot one lower and only has half the cost in material components? No.

The basis for this spell was supposed to be raise dead, not resurrection - hence why the level is pegged at 6 to raise dead's 5. Personally I'm not sure what the major advantage of resurrection is over raise dead, other than the improved time limit. Sure it cures a few things, but if you're high enough level and have the time to cast raise dead, you should be able to cast restoration and whatever other spells available.

Reynard
2010-09-06, 09:31 AM
Raise dead needs the whole body.

Resurrection can do with just a finger, or less.

That's pretty much the difference.

Glimbur
2010-09-06, 09:39 AM
Our cleric quit. I mostly wanted a way to avoid the "your wizard has been reincarnated as a gnoll, you now have a LA and -2 to your casting stat" problem without delaying the spell a huge number of levels - I don't want to have to push it to a 9th level spell when a cleric can do it at 5.

You don't get penalties to your mental scores from Reincarnate. At most, you might lose your bonuses from your previous race, depending on how you interpret the spell. LA and Racial Hit dice still seem to be a problem, but... consider coup de grace and Last Breath from the Spell Compendium if you want to re-roll reincarnate.

WarKitty
2010-09-06, 09:46 AM
Raise dead needs the whole body.

Resurrection can do with just a finger, or less.

That's pretty much the difference.

Oooo missed that bit. Perhaps just add a line saying "In order to create a new body of the same race, the old body must be taken to a special grove where it undergoes an accelerated decay and is recycled into the new form." Or something like that, I'll work the fluff out.

Edit: Good point to the mental stats. Would still suck for the half-orc fighter being reincarnated as a halfling, or anyone being reincarnated as one of the +2 races. Wouldn't it change favored class as well?

Reis Tahlen
2010-09-06, 09:54 AM
As it is a "True" reincarnate, why not alleviate the random factor, and make the target reincarnate in a body who reflects what he did in his previous life?...

... Well, could be hard to put in play, but could be fun.

WarKitty
2010-09-06, 09:58 AM
As it is a "True" reincarnate, why not alleviate the random factor, and make the target reincarnate in a body who reflects what he did in his previous life?...

... Well, could be hard to put in play, but could be fun.

Very fun, no idea how to work it out, and not going to work it out right now.

The_Admiral
2010-09-06, 05:17 PM
How about giving this spell as a spell like ability to a race

WarKitty
2010-09-06, 05:19 PM
How about giving this spell as a spell like ability to a race

Yeah that sounds a bit *too* powerful, at least for a PC race. The original idea was to allow our no-cleric party a way to get dead PC's back without having to hunt down the appropriate NPC.

The_Admiral
2010-09-06, 05:23 PM
Limit it to 12 times total and only work on self

Lhurgyof
2010-09-06, 10:06 PM
There's a higher level reincarnate in Masters of the Wild. Level nine, I think. And it allows you to roll TWICE, not be the same, so I'd say no.

WarKitty
2010-09-06, 10:11 PM
There's a higher level reincarnate in Masters of the Wild. Level nine, I think. And it allows you to roll TWICE, not be the same, so I'd say no.

That is...really quite ridiculous. A cleric can cast True Resurrection at that level. I understand class specialization, but really at that point you're just making it a class tax (i.e. every party must have a cleric).

Lhurgyof
2010-09-06, 10:15 PM
That is...really quite ridiculous. A cleric can cast True Resurrection at that level. I understand class specialization, but really at that point you're just making it a class tax (i.e. every party must have a cleric).

True Reincarnate
Trans.
Druid 9
Components: V,S,DF,XP
Casting Time: 10 mins.

Works like reincarnate, but up to 10 years/caster level. Can work on someone who's body was destroyed Roll twice on the table, no level loss, but you must spend 1,000 xp.

Just looked it up.

The druid splatbook didn't have as much nice things as you'd find for clerics, probably because of -cough cough- wild shape and animal companion -cough cough-

Marnath
2010-09-06, 10:20 PM
Then an Inevitable comes along and chops your face off.

I lol'ed at that. :smallsmile: I'd allow this, assuming it was the choose-your-race version someone else mentioned. Your's seems a little tame. I would also endorse the "get raise dead and ressurection one level late kthnx" approach.

WarKitty
2010-09-06, 10:42 PM
True Reincarnate
Trans.
Druid 9
Components: V,S,DF,XP
Casting Time: 10 mins.

Works like reincarnate, but up to 10 years/caster level. Can work on someone who's body was destroyed Roll twice on the table, no level loss, but you must spend 1,000 xp.

Just looked it up.

The druid splatbook didn't have as much nice things as you'd find for clerics, probably because of -cough cough- wild shape and animal companion -cough cough-

Well it's PF game, so it's not that broken with wild shape. Yeah I understand the not wanting to increase the druid's power, but making it cleric-only just means death sucks more for a cleric-free party.

Hague
2010-09-06, 10:56 PM
Class tax? Really? Isn't it technically possible for Wizards to get access to resurrection as a spell with a feat?

And what campaign are you playing where you don't have access to NPC clerics?

Marnath
2010-09-06, 11:01 PM
Class tax? Really? Isn't it technically possible for Wizards to get access to resurrection as a spell with a feat?

And what campaign are you playing where you don't have access to NPC clerics?

Most campaigns aren't going to have many NPC's that are that high of a level. You're approaching quasi-diety status in a world by the time you can cast ressurect. Or at least legendary hero status.

Douglas
2010-09-06, 11:02 PM
There's a higher level reincarnate in Masters of the Wild. Level nine, I think. And it allows you to roll TWICE, not be the same, so I'd say no.
Ah, but the real benefit of that spell is the lack of level loss for the revived character. Just like the primary reason for ever using True Resurrection is to avoid losing a level. Having a little more control over what you come back as is a minor side benefit compared to that, so I think it's entirely reasonable for a controlled Reincarnate to be lower level if it still imposes level loss.

WarKitty
2010-09-06, 11:09 PM
Class tax? Really? Isn't it technically possible for Wizards to get access to resurrection as a spell with a feat?

And what campaign are you playing where you don't have access to NPC clerics?

Not sure. We actually don't have one of those either. We have a druid, a rogue, a sorcerer/fighter (going spellsword), and alchemist, and two fighters. I'm the designated party healer as the druid. And yeah the DM is not generous with the availability of higher-level casters.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-06, 11:09 PM
Well it's PF game, so it's not that broken with wild shape. Yeah I understand the not wanting to increase the druid's power, but making it cleric-only just means death sucks more for a cleric-free party.

Ah, ok... Well, I'd approve it as a DM at a lower level with roll twice, and a slightly higher level (9th or so) with no level loss, and 3 rolls or so? Or even getting to be the same race.

El Dorado
2010-09-06, 11:49 PM
Obviously I have a reading problem.

Marnath
2010-09-06, 11:50 PM
I don't think this is the thread you meant to reply to, Davester.

El Dorado
2010-09-06, 11:55 PM
Whoops. Nothing to see here. :smallwink: