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Engine
2010-09-05, 09:31 AM
We're a newly formed party for D&D 3.5 Edition (Forgotten Realms), three characters starting at first level:
- Favored Soul
- Druid
- Paladin

I'm playing the Paladin, the other two players are good friends of mine. The DM wants me to use the 3.0 Edition version of the Paladin, saying that the 3.5 version is too strong. I've argued that a Paladin can't compete with a Druid and a Favored Soul in terms of sheer power even with the 3.5, being them pure casters but he said that the game we'll be balanced and he really prefers the 3.0 version (for example, he thinks that Smite Evil is too much for a first level character and more daily uses are overpowered).
We're using the core rulebooks, the Miniature Handbook, the Forgotten Realms Campaing Setting, Faiths & Pantheons. Other books could be used only if he approves, but most of the times he says "no" because he wants a low-power game. But as I pointed out, pure casters are definitely not low-power classes, so I really can't figure out why he's doing this to my Paladin.

So I ask you:
What should I do?
My friends says I should change character, maybe a Cleric or a Wizard.

liquid150
2010-09-05, 09:34 AM
Paladins are incredibly weak, especially in combat. When your role is reduced to "scounts for evil monsters using detect evil" you know there's a problem. I can't possibly fathom why your DM would think 3.5 paladins are powerful at all, much less brokenly powerful.

If he thinks the game will be balanced and you've got a druid in the party, he's dreaming. Of course, guys like this tend to prefer to remain ignorant and nothing you say will probably convince him otherwise.

Thinker
2010-09-05, 09:39 AM
If that is the case I recommend dropping the paladin and playing a cleric, but describing yourself as a paladin in every way, right down to having a code of law and good that you follow (Hey, there are domains for that!). Since one of you is playing a Favored Soul you can probably take divine metamagic as well. You'll be more useful to your group this way and won't be at odds with the DM.

Soranar
2010-09-05, 09:43 AM
In most of our games, the DM is either the player with the most experience or the second player with the most experience, when the normal DM wants a change.

Obviously this is not the case in your game.

You could ask to play a Druid too (swap a tier 4-5 for a tier 1).

But I'm guessing he thinks Paladins are strong because they get all their stuff at lower levels (if your whole game is done by level 6 than yeah, paladins are not that bad).

Try to explain how powerful other classes are or else just play a fighter (with more feats and you can always roleplay the lawful good part)

Nick_mi
2010-09-05, 09:43 AM
Bring him to the website, show him the tiers. Tell him he's crazy.

Kaww
2010-09-05, 09:44 AM
Your DM has some issues or your paladin may break the plot in some way. I'm sometimes scared of something like detect evil breaking the plot, but my players don't use it and they don't play paladins either...

I think that even the best optimization of a paladin with PrCs (lvl 20) doesn't make it a serious threat for a lvl 20 druid with no PrCs. That's just my two bits.

P.S. This might help http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0

Boren
2010-09-05, 09:49 AM
Well my first thought is would be change to a Kantian Paladin but from what you have said I can already tell he would shoot that down.
Personally it sounds to me like your DM just doesn't like paladins so your best bet may be to change classes outright. Perhaps a nice war-mage/ rogue/ Dagger-spell mage could be fun if your allowed complete adventurer. Or just play a wizard.
Finally if your not having fun talk to your DM if he refuses to compromise in a way that lets you enjoy the game then find yourself another game. A DM can only be as tyrannical as his players let him be because a DM with no players is just a guy sitting with a pile of books. :smallwink:
Edit: I'm sorry that was rude of me to talk about a class without posting where you can find it:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Kantian_Paladin_%283.5e_Class%29

A solid T3 re-working of the paladin IMHO

freebiewitz
2010-09-05, 09:50 AM
Hmm idea, instead of trying to compete damage wise try doing it defensively. What I meen is doing something that the druid and favored soul can do as well as paladins and by that I mean tanking.

Increase your AC as much as possible, try taking protection devotion. Take feats that increase your hitpoints and overall toughness (Improved toughness is good) this means that you'll always be useful.

However the druid kinda screws this plan over when he turns into a bear..... or summons another bear to tanks etc.

DeltaEmil
2010-09-05, 09:51 AM
If he refuses, play a cleric, and shatter his dreams apart, sticking with the rules. Or just don't play with him.

Mr.Moron
2010-09-05, 09:52 AM
Play a Cleric. You can get everything the Paladin does, and then some just with alternate class features and feats. Even a straight out of the box core-only cleric makes a more mechanically sound "Paladin" than the Paladin does.

If you're attached to the class. I don't know what to tell ya, the DM has made his call for better or for worse. If you're attached to the "Holy Warrior" archetype be glad, your DM has only banned the least mechanically sound implementation of it.

RebelRogue
2010-09-05, 09:52 AM
So your DM thinks adding +1 to damage and somewhere around +2 to +5 to hit more than once a day is overpowered?!? Even if you know nothing of the balance issues of 3.5 (or, like me, think they're overestimated in most casual games) that seems a bit wrong!

liquid150
2010-09-05, 09:55 AM
Personally every time I'm given the option to play a wizard, I take it. Just keep it core. Be a Red Wizard. Either take Leadership or use Simulacra to power Circle Magic. Stomp things in to the floor like you really mean it.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-05, 09:55 AM
The DM wants me to use the 3.0 Edition version of the Paladin, saying that the 3.5 version is too strong. I've argued that a Paladin can't compete with a Druid and a Favored Soul in terms of sheer power even with the 3.5, being them pure casters but he said that the game we'll be balanced and he really prefers the 3.0 version (for example, he thinks that Smite Evil is too much for a first level character and more daily uses are overpowered).


Your DM does not understand balance.



My friends says I should change character, maybe a Cleric or a Wizard.

Your friends do.

Cleric can emulate a paladin fairly well, actually. Favored Soul is similar though, so if you don't want to be that much like your friend, you could try warmage. Not top tier, but can still be good, and pretty fun.

Thinker
2010-09-05, 09:59 AM
Hmm idea, instead of trying to compete damage wise try doing it defensively. What I meen is doing something that the druid and favored soul can do as well as paladins and by that I mean tanking.

Increase your AC as much as possible, try taking protection devotion. Take feats that increase your hitpoints and overall toughness (Improved toughness is good) this means that you'll always be useful.

However the druid kinda screws this plan over when he turns into a bear..... or summons another bear to tanks etc.

How does increasing your AC help the group very much? The paladin has no way to make the enemies attack him rather than the other party members. The rest of the group can cast in armor (or as an animal with higher AC) anyway. Finally, AC is one of the worst ways to increase your chances of being hit by an incoming attack because it scales so poorly and because many types of attack ignore it completely.

Amphetryon
2010-09-05, 10:02 AM
Play a LG Wizard focused on buffs and some summons. Flavor it as a "Paladin of Azuth" or a "Wizard in service to the Knights of the Weave." I think everyone will be happier - except possibly the DM, who might be in for a rude surprise if he thinks Paladins are overpowered.

Engine
2010-09-05, 10:02 AM
I've talked to him about tiers and pure casters being overpowered especially when compared to Fighters and Paladins.
He said that he could run a well-balanced game and I should at least try to play the Paladin that way. I can't figure out how he thinks he could do that, but that's what he said to me.

The Favored Soul player's the most experienced player, I'm close second. But we want to play together as a party for once, so we searched a DM online.

By the way I know Paladins are not great at all, even with a good PrC (Fist of Raziel comes to mind). Sure I'm not expecting my character (even with the Fax_Celestis fix that he rejected outright saying it's too powerful) to compete with my friend's Druid.

I'll probably change my character and go for a pure caster.
Anyway,thanks for your tips.=D

Kaww
2010-09-05, 10:04 AM
How does increasing your AC help the group very much? The paladin has no way to make the enemies attack him rather than the other party members. The rest of the group can cast in armor (or as an animal with higher AC) anyway. Finally, AC is one of the worst ways to increase your chances of being hit by an incoming attack because it scales so poorly and because many types of attack ignore it completely.

Maybe you are making a point?

'I'm just a human shield and you think I'm too powerful'

I see no other explanation except making a point to DM, your AC will suck, just like everything else. Even if it doesn't the guy next to you isn't a guy, he is a bird, and he isn't next to you he's 60ft above shooting lightning...

Kylarra
2010-09-05, 10:15 AM
I'd just take his cleric suggestion, to be honest. It's not worth the hassle to argue out relative power, and you can still be a holy warrior with a less limiting CoC.

freebiewitz
2010-09-05, 10:15 AM
How does increasing your AC help the group very much? The paladin has no way to make the enemies attack him rather than the other party members. The rest of the group can cast in armor (or as an animal with higher AC) anyway. Finally, AC is one of the worst ways to increase your chances of being hit by an incoming attack because it scales so poorly and because many types of attack ignore it completely.

Ac is a bad example and I did mention the bear. My point is you shouldn't try to compete with spell casters if your not one yourself Just increase what strengths you can and what they cant. Hitpoints and AC were just the first things to come to be is all but I get your point.

Mark Hall
2010-09-05, 10:22 AM
Short of giving your DM an extensive course in balance issues with 3.5, really your two options to keep character concept are "Play a Paladin under his rules" or "play something else." Straight up cleric would work. You might also angle for Divine Champion, or Justicar of Tyr (assuming you're Tyrran).

Engine
2010-09-05, 10:30 AM
Ac is a bad example and I did mention the bear. My point is you shouldn't try to compete with spell casters if your not one yourself Just increase what strengths you can and what they cant. Hitpoints and AC were just the first things to come to be is all but I get your point.

Never had the intention to compete with the party's spellcasters. I know all too well that they can - and will do - much more damage than a Paladin.
But:

Why should I play a Paladin for AC and HP?
I could go Fighter for that, more feats and less MAD. And Thinker has a really good point about that.


I'd just take his cleric suggestion, to be honest. It's not worth the hassle to argue out relative power, and you can still be a holy warrior with a less limiting CoC.

Short of giving your DM an extensive course in balance issues with 3.5, really your two options to keep character concept are "Play a Paladin under his rules" or "play something else." Straight up cleric would work. You might also angle for Divine Champion, or Justicar of Tyr (assuming you're Tyrran).


The CoC it's just fine.

Anyway I said to my friends that probably could be a better idea to search for another DM who, maybe, knows something about D&D. I know I could just go Cleric and forget balance issues.
But I don't want to argue with him in the future. Same for my friends. If he thinks more daily uses of Smite Evil are overpowered, how he will react to the Druid's ownage? Or Cleric's?
Simply not worth the time.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-05, 10:38 AM
Thats a good point. If playing with this DM isn't a big deal, simply moving on to someone less clueless is likely easier.

WarKitty
2010-09-05, 10:38 AM
Were you looking for a DM in your area or one to play online with? Because we have a nice recruiting section in this forum.

Knaight
2010-09-05, 10:40 AM
Alternately, try and use the pathfinder paladin. What, with pathfinder as a D&D fix and all.

Engine
2010-09-05, 10:51 AM
Were you looking for a DM in your area or one to play online with? Because we have a nice recruiting section in this forum.

We're searching online, we're scattered from north to south Italy.:smallfrown:
And I'm the only one who could speak and write english properly, so the GitP recruiting section's barred for us.


Alternately, try and use the pathfinder paladin. What, with pathfinder as a D&D fix and all.

Yeah, but more arguing. And I doubt he'll say "yes".
Simply not worth the time, IMHO.


Thats a good point. If playing with this DM isn't a big deal, simply moving on to someone less clueless is likely easier.

Most of the times I'm really nice with newbies, WoW has taught me well to not harrass them.:smallbiggrin:
But he seems "commonsense-proof". And the thread's replies just confirm this feeling.

RebelRogue
2010-09-05, 10:54 AM
Alternately, try and use the pathfinder paladin. What, with pathfinder as a D&D fix and all.
If the DM does not allow the 3.5, but insists on the 3.0 version, I highly doubt he'll allow the Pathfinder one.

Mark Hall
2010-09-05, 10:58 AM
But I don't want to argue with him in the future. Same for my friends. If he thinks more daily uses of Smite Evil are overpowered, how he will react to the Druid's ownage? Or Cleric's?
Simply not worth the time.

Can definitely understand that. We dumped a guy from our Castles and Crusades game because we didn't feel like teaching him to be a non-creepy person.

Knaight
2010-09-05, 10:58 AM
If the DM does not allow the 3.5, but insists on the 3.0 version, I highly doubt he'll allow the Pathfinder one.

Its unlikely, but we already know he can't identify which classes are powerful, so it (as well as the crusader) are worth trying.

onthetown
2010-09-05, 11:33 AM
It's funny that a Wizard or Cleric would be open to suggestion if the DM thinks the Paladin is too strong...

Honestly, there's a Druid in the party. Your job will be to protect the Druid so that he/she can rain death upon the enemies. Sheer strength with some nice healing capabilities really has nothing on what Druids and Wizards can pull off.

derfenrirwolv
2010-09-05, 11:41 AM
Suggest that your DM go into rehab, because he's smoking crack.

Or, stat out your paladin at 8th level. Give him to the dm. Stat out your friends druid at 8th level and have them fight. Heck, make it the druids evil twin. Wallop your own character into submission with the overpowered shape shifting cheese of the druid

Tyndmyr
2010-09-05, 11:45 AM
Nah, have the druid merely buff his animal companion, and have his animal companion kill you, while the druid kills another copy of you.

Crossblade
2010-09-05, 12:35 PM
The Destruction Domain gives you 1 smite per day.
Page 58 in Unearthed Arcana has a cleric variant where you lose Turn Undead and gain Smite Evil.

Be that variant and LG and follow St. Cuthbert. You can then the additional choice of getting the Law, Protection or Strength domain on top of that.