PDA

View Full Version : Alien to Everything (3.5e Base Class -- PEACH) ₪



Rithaniel
2010-09-05, 09:16 PM
Xenonaught

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/6697/23tfrq8.jpg

"Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
Oh, how I wish he’d go away."
--Hughes Mearns, "Antigonish".

"Define 'real'."
--Vagé Neuk, a Jann Xenonaught.

The existence of xenonaughts is an non-sequitur in the eyes of the entirety of existence, for the minds that govern a xenonaught's body are not 'real', as we know the term. They are entities that are somehow beyond what exists, from the infinite unreality outside truth and fact. As a result, xenonaughts are individuals who are able to perceive the world in a paradoxial way, and even impact the universe, just by watching it.

Abilities: First and foremost, Charisma is crucial to a xenonaught, as almost all of his combat related class features hinge upon it, his force of personality having such a massive impact or his interaction with the world. Second and third most important ability scores to a xenonaught are Constitution and Strength, as their largest source of damage hinges upon their bodily health being sacrificed, and they need Strength for prowess in combat. Fourth, Dexterity is also quite important to a xenonaught, as their defenses rely on speed as well as force of personality. Wisdom and Intelligence are neither very important to a xenonaught.

Role: Xenonaught's are generally wild cards in most parties, as they can be found as full fledge frontline combatants, or as backline archers with an ability to debuff their foes. Though, regardless of how they behave in actual combat, a xenonaught is almost always an amazing forward scout, as their blindsight and awareness abilities allow them to almost always be aware of any danger before the danger is aware of them.

Background: The origins of xenonaughts are cryptic and inexplicable. It seems that one person could be born with the power of a xenonaught, but never realize the unreality of their own mind, while another person could be born being aware of it, acting as an unreal entity merely puppeting a body that would have otherwise been stillborn. Some actually try and seek out the power of a xenonaught, and pervert their own psyches, pulling in false matters into their mind, just to unmake their own thoughts, and become xenonaughts.

Organization: Xenonaughts are not known to have any active organizations, but, taking into account their impossible functionalities, it would be feasible that two xenonaughts could actually be being controlled by the same unreal entity beyond existence. In this way, it could be said while xenonaughts have no real organizations, they are still organized. Still, some xenonaughts are confused by their reality, and seek out others, to try and unravel what their existence means. In this way, organizations that include, or are even centered upon, xenonaught seeking truth, might be almost common.

Alignment: While a xenonaught can be of any alignment, they tend to float more towards the evil spectrum, as the nature of their powers are a very direct opposite analogue of the natural and the real. Of course, while this does have some sway on an individual xenonaught's mindset, it does not rule them, as a particular xenonaught could use the unnatural powers afforded to them as a tool to do holy work.

Races: All races share a number of xenonaughts, though, it is rarer for races which have a close tie with the real and nature, such as dryads, or elemental entities, who actually embody a part of reality, are much less likely to have xenonaughts among their numbers. Most races tend to give xenonaughts a wide berth, as they tend to unnerve most, and not fit into most cultures.

Religion: Xenonaught's approach religion from all sorts of different directions. Some xenonaught's actually worship the unreality and the eons beyond space which they draw their power from, as those who would attempt to actually transform themselves into xenonaughts would. Some xenonaughts are not entirely aware of the unreality that drives them, and worship like any other member of their culture. Other xenonaught's still, view their gifts, their power, as a gift to be given to gods, and actually take up mantles as holy warriors.

Other Classes: Xenonaught's have extremely varied interactions with members of other classes, as one, more evil and dark xenonaught, could repulse a holy warrior such as a paladin, while draws in power obsessed wizards or archivists. Another xenonaught could actually lead clerics and paladins for a crusade, as their powers were taken to mean divine insight, and they were appointed to become leaders of holy work. Still other xenonaughts might merely behaves a commoner would, and interact with others as a normal person.

Adaptation: The xenonaught class can be re-arranged for any means in any universe. For example, it could be that an entity beyond reality has taken over several minds, turning them into xenonaughts, and interlinking their minds, so that they communicate in a hive mind, in much the same way as formians do. In another case, xenonaught's could only ever realized come about when a person has delved too deep into forbidden lore, and draw up unreality elementals (human ghost xenonaughts). Or, it could be that xenonaughts are just a particularly unusual breed of sorcerers, who function in exotic ways that most scholars view as not actually magic at all.

Hit Die: d8

Starting Gold: 3d6×10 gp (105 gp).


Xenonaught Class Features

Class Skills: The xenonaught's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str)

Skill Points at First Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Blindsight|Awareness

1st|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+2|Channel the Endless, Quandry, Unsettling Perception|
5 ft.|
10 ft.

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+3|Unreal Rend +1|
10 ft.|
20 ft.

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+3|Energy Resistance 3, Quandry|
15 ft.|
30 ft.

4th|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+4|Unreal Rend +2|
20 ft.|
40 ft.

5th|
+5|
+1|
+4|
+4|Quandry, Uncanny Dodge|
25 ft.|
50 ft.

6th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+5|
+5|Energy Resistance 6, Percept, Unreal Rend +3|
30 ft.|
60 ft.

7th|
+7/+2|
+2|
+5|
+5|Anticipate, Quandry|
35 ft.|
70 ft.

8th|
+8/+3|
+2|
+6|
+6|Unreal Rend +4|
40 ft.|
80 ft.

9th|
+9/+4|
+3|
+6|
+6|Energy Resistance 9, Greater Quandry|
45 ft.|
90 ft.

10th|
+10/+5|
+3|
+7|
+7|Improved Uncanny Dodge, Unreal Rend +5|
50 ft.|
100 ft.

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+3|
+7|
+7|Being Beyond Life, Greater Quandry|
55 ft.|
110 ft.

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+4|
+8|
+8|Energy Resistance 12, Unreal Rend +6|
60 ft.|
120 ft.

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+4|
+8|
+8|Greater Quandry|
65 ft.|
130 ft.

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+4|
+9|
+9|Unreal Rend +7|
70 ft.|
140 ft.

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+5|
+9|
+9|Energy Resistance 15, Greater Quandry|
75 ft.|
150 ft.

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+10|
+10|Perception Knot, Unreal Rend +8|
80 ft.|
160 ft.

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+10|Prime Quandry|
85 ft.|
170 ft.

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+11|
+11|Energy Resistance 18, Unreal Rend +9|
90 ft.|
180 ft.

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+11|
+11|Prime Quandry, Unbreakable|
95 ft.|
190 ft.

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+12|
+12|Apocryphal, Unreal Rend +10|
100 ft.|
200 ft.[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A xenonaught is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor and shields, but not tower shields.

Blindsight (Ex): A xenonaught has blindsight out to 5 feet per xenonaught level.

Awareness (Ex): If a xenonaught is within 10 feet per xenonaught level of another living creature, he is aware of this fact, even if the creature is hiding or invisible, the xenonaught may not be able to find the creature, but is still aware of it.

Quandry (Ex): A xenonaught can change the world in unbelievably strange ways, by merely looking at it. A xenonaught's gaze can make a person's skin turn into spiders, their mind simply vacate their body, or even cause their blood to turn to stone. At first level, a xenonaught gains his quandry. His quandry is an attack, that he can use on any target within his blindsight, as a standard action. At first, third, fifth, and seventh levels, a xenonaught selects a quandry effect from the list below. His quandry has this effect on it's target, as well as any other effects it may have already had. Using the quandry does not provoke an AoO, and requires no attack roll, but, some of it's effects might allow a save. If an effect does, the save DC is equal to (10 + half the xenonaught's HD + the xenonaught's Cha mod.). If the matter of the order in which effects of the quandry trigger comes up, then, unless otherwise stated in the specific effect entry, all the effects trigger simultaneously.

Quandry Effects
When used, the target of the quandry must make a fortitude save or become deafened for a number of rounds equal to the xenonaught's Charisma modifier.
When used, the target of the quandry suffers 1 point of damage to their Int score, their Wis score, and their Cha score.
When used, the target of the quandry must make a will save or become shaken for a number of rounds equal to the xenonaught's Charisma modifier.
When used, the target of the quandry suffers a 40% miss chance on their next attack.
When used, the target of the quandry must make a fortitude save or take 2 points of constitution damage.
When used, the target of the quandry must make a will save or become convinced that the xenonaught is the only enemy on the battlefield for a number of rounds equal to the xenonaught's Charisma modifier.
When used, the target of the quandry loses the ability to make a critical hit for a number of rounds equal to the xenonaught's Charisma modifier.
When used, the target of the quandry must make a reflex save or take a penalty to their AC equal to the xenonaught's Charisma modifier.
When used, the target of the quandry becomes unable to move more than 15 feet until after the xenonaught's next round.

Channel the Endless (Ex): A xenonaught is not quite 'real' in the way that most would think of the word, and he functions in a way that baffles most, allowing him to add his Charisma bonus (if any) as a deflection bonus to his AC. If the xenonaught is wearing a piece of armor that has a maximum Dex bonus, then the deflection bonus is restricted by this maximum Dex bonus in the same way his Dex bonus is restricted by it.

Unsettling Perception (Ex): A xenonaught's perception of the world is paradoxical in the extreme, as they seem to pick up on bits of information from nothing more than the mere presence of another. If a creature spends one full minute within the range of the xenonaught's blindsight, then the xenonaught begins to acquire basic information about them, such as their given name, their age, their race, and the like. The exact information acquired is up to the DM.

Unreal Rend: At second level, a xenonaught gains the ability to designate any attack he makes as an unreal rend by sacrificing (1 + the xenonaught's Charisma modifier) hit points. A unreal rend is resolved as a normal attack, but adds +1, and the xenonaughts Charisma modifier, as a distortion bonus to both attack roll and damage. The distortion bonus to attack roll and damage this class feature grants, and the hit point cost required to make an attack an unreal rend, each increases by 1 at every two level after 2nd (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, etc.).

Energy Resistance (Ex): At third level, a xenonaught's body starts to become wreathed in unexistence, which shields him, drawing in baleful forms of energy and nullifying them, granting him energy resistance 3 to all forms of energy. This energy resistance increases by 3 every three levels after third (6th, 9th, etc.)

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At fifth level, a xenonaught can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

If a xenonaught already has uncanny dodge from a different class he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

Percept (Ex): At sixth level, a xenonaught's impossible awareness of the universe around him grows in unusual ways, and now allows him to automatically be aware when he is being watched, without fail. At this level, if the xenonaught is being watched, regardless of it's through mundane sight, through scrying or other forms of remote viewing, or even through an unusual form of detection such as tremorsense or scent, he is always aware of the fact, and at least the general location of the person watching him. If the xenonaught is asleep while he is being watched, then he is allowed a sense motive check (opposed by the watcher's bluff) to wake up. If he does not wake up, he doesn't become aware that he is being watched unless another force causes him to wake up.

Anticipate: As a xenonaught grows, he slowly begins to see things from outside reality more and more, until he can perceive things without the passage of time, almost, and react faster than should be feasible. At seventh level, a xenonaught gains the ability to act normally in a surprise round, no matter the circumstances.

Greater Quandry (Ex): At 9th, 11th, 13th, and 15th levels, the xenonaught selects an effect from the list of greater quandry effects below. His quandry now has this effect on it's target, as well as any effect it may have already had.

Greater Quandry Effects
When used, the target of the quandry must make a reflex save or take (the xenonaughts Charisma modifier)d6 force damage.
When used, the target of the quandry loses the ability to take swift actions and immediate actions until after the xenonaught's next round.
When used, the target of the quandry must make a fortitude save or become blinded for a number of rounds equal to the xenonaught's Charisma modifier.
When used, the target of the quandry becomes unable to recover hit points past their current hit points for a number of rounds equal to the xenonaught's Charisma modifier.
When used, the target of the quandry must make a fortitude save or gain a negative level.
When used, the target of the quandry must make a will save or take a -4 penalty to all other saves they make before the xenonaught's next round, including other saves the quandry might have forced them to make.
When used, the target of the quandry becomes unable to take attacks of opportunity for a number of rounds equal to the xenonaught's Charisma modifier.
When used, the target of the quandry must make a reflex save or be teleported up to 20 feet in a direction of the xenonaught's choice. This effect cannot place the target inside a solid object or an occupied space, but can bypass force effects and effects that usually bar teleportation effects.
When used, the target of the quandry suffers maximum damage from any attack made against it for a number of rounds equal to the xenonaught's Charisma modifier.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A xenonaught of tenth level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking him, unless the rogue has at least four more rogue levels than the xenonaught.

Being Beyond Life (Ex): A xenonaught of eleventh level or higher has begun to grow into the true essence of unreality, and has learned how to exist without the requirements that lie upon normal, living entities. A xenonaught, at this level, no longer needs to eat, drink, or breathe. Nor does he ever register as anything more than an inanimate object to any effect that is capable of detecting the manner of being something or someone is.

Perception Knot (Ex): At sixteenth level, a xenonaught learns to see into the twisted pathways of a creatures very mind, making it so that, if a creature is inside the range of the xenonaughts blindsight at the beginning of his round, he may select them as a free action, and make it be so that all the creature’s memories and knowledge are accessible to him, ranging from memories deep below the surface to those still easily called to mind. The xenonaught can, once per round, pose a question to the mind of an entity who was within his blindsight at the beginning of his turn. That entity must make a Will save (DC + half the xenonaught's HD + the xenonaught's Cha mod) or answer the xenonaught, to the best of their knowledge. The xenonaught can also present these questions to a sleeping subject, who in turn does not get a saving throw to resist giving an answer, but, after each question, may attempt a Will save (same DC) to wake up. The xenonaught poses the questions telepathically, and the answers to those questions are imparted directly to his mind. The xenonaught and the target do not need to speak the same language, though less intelligent creatures may yield up only appropriate visual images in answer to the questions. This is a mind-affecting effect.

Prime Quandry (Ex): At 17th, 19th, 21st, and 23rd levels, the xenonaught selects an effect from the list of prime quandry effects below. His quandry now has this effect on it's target, as well as any effect it may have already had.

Prime Quandry Effects
When used, the target of the quandry must make a will save or become unable to take more than one action on each of their turns, for a number of rounds equal to the xenonaught's Charisma modifier. In this way, they may only take a single free action, move action, standard action, swift action, immediate action, or full round action during each of their turns.
When used, the target of the quandry and all objects they carry, are treated as being inside an antimagic field for a number of rounds equal to the xenonaught's Charisma modifier.
When used, the target of the quandry must make a fortitude save or become exhausted for a number of rounds equal to the xenonaught's Charisma modifier.
When used, the target of the quandry must make a reflex save or be denied any armor, natural armor, or shield bonus they have to AC.
When used, the target of the quandry becomes unable to move in anything but a straight line during any move action they take, as though they were charging, for a number of rounds equal to the xenonaught's Charisma modifier.
When used, the target of the quandry automatically has their presence lit up like a psychic beacon, and is denied any concealment or cover they possess, other than total cover, for a number of rounds equal to the xenonaught's Charisma modifier.
When used, the target of the quandry must make a will save or lose all benefits from two randomly selected feats they possess for a number of rounds equal to the xenonaught's Charisma modifier.
When used, the target of the quandry becomes linked with the xenonaught, making it so that, for a number of rounds equal to the xenonaught's Charisma modifier, if the xenonaught loses hit points, the target of the quandry also loses the same amount of hit points.
When used, the target of the quandry becomes unable to communicate in any way, shape or form, be it verbally, somatically, through telepathy, via writing things down, or even via magic, as their body simply fails to follow their will, and they seem to merely be flailing around aimlessly, for the next 24 hours. Their others actions remain unhampered.

Unbreakable (Ex): At nineteenth level, a xenonaught gains immunity to nonlethal damage, with only one exception: if a xenonaught has regeneration of any kind, then he still takes nonlethal damage that would normally be lethal damage if it weren't for the regeneration.

Apocryphal (Ex): Eventually, a xenonaught reaches a point where his body has been lined so utterly with the essence of nothingness, his every fiber bound with emptiness so perfectly, that his body has actually ceased to exist, in a way. At twentieth level, a xenonaught is in no small way just a gate to naught, and can actually find himself left out of reality at times. At this level, whenever the xenonaught is not being directly observed by an entity with a Wisdom score ('directly observed' here meaning that the entity is aware of the exact 5-foot square the xenonaught occupies), he doesn't exist at all, meaning that he is essentially immune to any and all effects, regardless of origin, purpose, or effect. The xenonaught does not age or heal while not existing. Any equipment he carries ceases to exist alongside him, and returns to existence when he does. If any effect with a duration is on the xenonaught and he stops existing, the effect is ended. The xenonaught effective does not occupy any space, however, he is restricted in his movements as he normally would be. If he is trapped underneath a mountain, he might not be able to take any damage or suffocate, but he will also not be able to move. While the xenonaught may not actually occupy any space, he is still aware of himself and effects can still originate from him. He can still use his quandry, see others, manipulate objects as normal, or take any other actions he normally would be able to, but doing so will likely alert others to his existence, who may then very well begin observing him, and thereby make him begin to exist once again. While not existing, the xenonaught can still be detected as though he were actually there, making his appearance be able to be potentially recorded by non-sentient entities (lacking wisdom scores), and his life signs still potentially able to be registered by any effect that might detect life signs. He does not begin to exist again until an entity with an actual Wisdom score begins observing him in a location, as he occupies that location. Artificial forms of viewing are indirect, and therefore have no impact on the existence of the xenonaught.

Rithaniel
2010-09-05, 09:17 PM
Disclaimer
This class might seem a little powerful to some people, so, to put your mind at ease, it's being stated that this class is aiming to be around the power of a sorcerer of relatively high strength. Does it manage this? Does it fail? Your two cents are needed.

unosarta
2010-09-05, 09:37 PM
At level 1, a Xenonaught may force another creature, no SR, no save, cause a target to take 1 point of Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma damage.

What?

I noted that you meant it to be around sorcerer level, but that is beyond sorcerer, it is just broken. At least give it a save, or something.

Constitution damage? Actually, the rest of the Quandry effects look pretty sweet, and not altogether too powerful. Those two though...

Unreal rend is interesting. Maybe adds class level to damage and attack as well (but not to health required)? That might give it a boost. Otherwise, it seems like a high sacrifice for what is quite likely 12+ health at level 20, especially when they have only a d8.

It seems like it would be a Will save to wake up for Percept, rather than sense motive. DC could be standard for a spell (10+ spell level + primary casting modifier).

Greater Quandry looks OK, but the one that removes swift and immediate is kind of powerful. Maybe give them a save?

What is the action for asking a question with Perception Knot?

The Prime Quandries look great. I love the one that forces them to move only in a straight line. I would move those Ability Score damage abilities to this level.

Apocryphal is an amazing ability. The idea itself is awesome flavor wise, and for a level 20 ability, it is pretty good.


Overall, this class is a weak tier 2, at the highest. It isn't even that great in combat, until level 9. Before that, it is just defensive. I would make a Quandry that deals damage, at an earlier level. A couple of the Quandries should be moved around (the ability damage ones should be Prime of Greater. Probably just Prime). A couple of the Prime abilities are not powerful enough to really be prime. I still like the class. It doesn't pack all that much of a punch though, and seems very unfocused. I am not sure what exactly it does. I would not likely play one (no offense to the class, it is hard to make me actually want to play a class).

Dead_Jester
2010-09-06, 06:53 PM
Actually the 2 con damage is pretty negligible at early levels (1 point of damage per hit-dice), and it is a standard action. Even a wizard with 6 con will take 3 turns to kill, when he could have stabbed him once.

As for the class itself, this looks very good. The fluff is good and the crunch is up to par. This isn't tier one (no instawins here), but it is easily tier 3.

I think there needs to be an option to reduce the level of unreal rend, so the indicated number is the maximum. Also, the quandry effects look pretty balanced, but with 12 effects going on at the same time at level 19, it would probably slow the game to a crawl. How about making it a single save, or 1 save per level (the type being either always the same or of a type used by any of the effects).

Apart from that, I think the only thing I think this class is missing is some form of teleportation mouvement mode (I can't think of a Far Realm entity without an ability to close in quick with bothersome mortals), maybe something that lets them teleport to their quandry target or a quandry effect that teleports the victim in a square of your choosing (bonus on save if it's a dangerous place, and not inside a solid).

And unosarta, about your comment that the class seems unfocused, I just can't see it. This class (to me) is a consistent Far Realm/Chtulhu Mythos inspired combat debuffer with a few extra abilities related to them being, well, far-realm thingies.

unosarta
2010-09-06, 07:18 PM
Actually the 2 con damage is pretty negligible at early levels (1 point of damage per hit-dice), and it is a standard action. Even a wizard with 6 con will take 3 turns to kill, when he could have stabbed him once.
Yeah, I guess so for that one. But ability damage in general when accessed at level one is incredibly rare, and for good reason. Let's take for example, a CR 1 monster. Duergar, level 1 warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dwarf.htm). He has 9 hitpoints, and a constitution of 14. The Xenonaught should have an 18 in charisma, so a save DC of 14, at first level. The Duergar has a fortitude save of +4. It would take 7 turns of using the ability to kill the Duergar, but if you factor in the save, it would be 14 turns. But, honestly, the problem is, using this ability successfully not only reduces their HP by 1 per hit, it also reduces their Fortitude save bonus. This may not seem like a lot, but compare it to how much damage, say, a fighter can do (yes, I know, not a very good example, but it is for simplicities sake). A fighter at this level would have an 18 in strength, a base attack bonus of +1. They most likely do not have any other attack modifier bonuses, but for this sake, let's just say that they have Weapon Focus (*shudder*). The Duergar has an AC of 17. The fighter has am attack bonus of +6. They hit actually less often than a Xenonaught would, but that doesn't really prove anything. Let's say he has a longsword. He deals 1d8+4 whenever he hits, with an average of 8.5 damage. He hits 9/20 times. The Xenonaught hit's 10/20 times. So, the fighter deals 3.85 damage on average. The Xenonaught deals less than that, on average, but the thing is; ability damage scales much better than regular damage. When you get to higher levels, many and most creatures have damage reduction. They do not gain ability reduction unless your DM is specifically trying to inhibit this ability, and gives their monsters Incarnum abilities. Although fortitude saves may scale very quickly for many monsters, that still doesn't necessarily reduce the usefulness of this ability.

Also, I notice that you mention that they are all balanced, but you forget to mention the no save, no SR damage to all mental ability scores. :smallconfused:


And unosarta, about your comment that the class seems unfocused, I just can't see it. This class (to me) is a consistent Far Realm/Chtulhu Mythos inspired combat debuffer with a few extra abilities related to them being, well, far-realm thingies.

:smallconfused:
Far Realm? Cthulhu? What do they have to do with nothingness? That is what this class is really about. The fluff even states so. Also, the debuffing abilities do not seem all that powerful to me. I don't know. But I do know that this class has nothing to do with the Far Realms, according to the fluff. I like the idea, I like some of the execution. It just doesn't seem all that focused to me. I don't that is necessarily the right word for it, but it seems to be the best I can use in this situation. It doesn't have all that much to do with nothingness, and doesn't seems to have all that much to do with Far Realms, and very little with aliens.

Rithaniel
2010-09-06, 08:03 PM
Sorry for the delay on the replies, the internet over here is unreliable, at it's best. Now then:

The mental ability damage quandry was made after considerable revisions, and it almost didn't make it into the class at all, but the reasoning behind is simply that, dropping from a +1 to a +0 in Int or Cha doesn't really impact the game as much as it would seem, and the part of getting a -1 to Will saves after two uses of the quandry, wouldn't impact the game all that much either, and since most things have average, or, at least 5+ mental stats, that quandry is not going to be killing things very often. The removal of a save was to make it comparable to the other quandry effects.

Also, the constitution damage is actually the early level 'damage' quandry effect, and it scales with level as well, seeing as the stronger the opponent is, the more it hurts them, which, ironically, means it hurts them about the same no matter how strong they are. :P

Yeah, unreal rend's biggest thing is the boost to hit, cause with a +12 to hit on top of any other attack roll modifiers you may or may not have, is almost a guaranteed hit. How might your drafts of the ability read?

Also, Percept was originally a will save, but, it changed, and it doesn't really change all that much from one to another (don't forget, they can wake up when a person smells them as well). Perception Knot is a free action, at the beginning of each round. Thanks for the compliments to the Apocryphal ability, by the way.


Also, take into account that the class can make a decent battlefield controller as well, due to synergy between quandry effects, which, with just three quandry effects, you could teleport a guy 20 feet backwards, make it so they can't move more than 15 feet (so they can't compensate for that 20 feet of movement), and make it so that they only focus on the xenonaught.


Anyways, thank you Dead Jester, and the logic for why the unreal rend ability is set in it's bonus, is to mirror that the ability is slightly out of the xenonaught's control, and that how taxing the ability is to use doesn't decrease as fast as the xenonaught grows in power, so it presents a similar threat to him at later levels as it did at early levels.


As for the fluff, it's not specifically pertaining to Cthulhu, Far Realms, or similar fare, but those things tend to be tied with Nothingness, and the specific 'nothingness' that this class pertains to was left up to the reader. In other words: yeah, you can't say that it actually pertains to Cthulhu or the Far Realms, but you can't say that it doesn't either.

unosarta
2010-09-06, 08:22 PM
Sorry for the delay on the replies, the internet over here is unreliable, at it's best. Now then:
No problem.


The mental ability damage quandry was made after considerable revisions, and it almost didn't make it into the class at all, but the reasoning behind is simply that, dropping from a +1 to a +0 in Int or Cha doesn't really impact the game as much as it would seem, and the part of getting a -1 to Will saves after two uses of the quandry, wouldn't impact the game all that much either, and since most things have average, or, at least 5+ mental stats, that quandry is not going to be killing things very often. The removal of a save was to make it comparable to the other quandry effects.
I suppose, but making it all three is pretty powerful. You could limit it to only one score, and I think that would be better. The main thing is, DM's tend to freak out if they see ability score damage at very low levels.


Also, the constitution damage is actually the early level 'damage' quandry effect, and it scales with level as well, seeing as the stronger the opponent is, the more it hurts them, which, ironically, means it hurts them about the same no matter how strong they are. :P
It would probably better just to give them a damage quandry. And if you are using it as the damage Quandry, it is decidedly not very powerful. A will or reflex save would be more powerful, but fortitude is often the highest of all monsters' saves. I would give them another damaging Quandry anyway. You could make it negative energy damage, in order to go along with the nothingness theme.


Yeah, unreal rend's biggest thing is the boost to hit, cause with a +12 to hit on top of any other attack roll modifiers you may or may not have, is almost a guaranteed hit. How might your drafts of the ability read?
Except, the Xenonaught has no way to increase damage, limiting them to roughly debuffing and tanking, once they get the Quandry for it.

A reading might be something like:

Unreal Rend (Ex): At second level, a xenonaught gains the ability to designate any attack he makes as an unreal rend by sacrificing (1 + the xenonaught's Charisma modifier) hit points. A unreal rend is resolved as a normal attack, but adds +1, and the xenonaughts Charisma modifier, as a distortion bonus to attack rolls. The Xenonaught gains a bonus to damage for this attack equal to 1 plus their Charisma modifier plus their class level. The distortion bonus to attack roll and damage this class feature grants, and the hit point cost required to make an attack an unreal rend, each increases by 1 at every two level after 2nd (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, etc.).

Or something like that.


Also, Percept was originally a will save, but, it changed, and it doesn't really change all that much from one to another (don't forget, they can wake up when a person smells them as well). Perception Knot is a free action, at the beginning of each round. Thanks for the compliments to the Apocryphal ability, by the way.
I guess. It just seems weird for them to force the caster to use bluff. Maybe a Sense Motive check against the standard spell save DC (10+spell level+main casting ability modifier).

I like Perception Knot.

Yeah, Apocryphal is just a cool ability to be used. It isn't even all that powerful.


Also, take into account that the class can make a decent battlefield controller as well, due to synergy between quandry effects, which, with just three quandry effects, you could teleport a guy 20 feet backwards, make it so they can't move more than 15 feet (so they can't compensate for that 20 feet of movement), and make it so that they only focus on the xenonaught.
OK, I guess. Yeah, some Quandry's are gems, and really cool, but they are limited to debuffing, tanking and BFCing. I think a damaging effect (similar to what I mentioned above with negative energy damage).


Anyways, thank you Dead Jester, and the logic for why the unreal rend ability is set in it's bonus, is to mirror that the ability is slightly out of the xenonaught's control, and that how taxing the ability is to use doesn't decrease as fast as the xenonaught grows in power, so it presents a similar threat to him at later levels as it did at early levels.
I guess. But it is still probably too much health to be anything but situational.


As for the fluff, it's not specifically pertaining to Cthulhu, Far Realms, or similar fare, but those things tend to be tied with Nothingness, and the specific 'nothingness' that this class pertains to was left up to the reader. In other words: yeah, you can't say that it actually pertains to Cthulhu or the Far Realms, but you can't say that it doesn't either.
I suppose. Nothingness just doesn't seem the same to me as elder evil. Elder evil is more mindless, and ancient beyond all imagination. Nothingness is an aspect of the universe, something that transcends the need for mind, and as old, if not older, that the universe.

DracoDei
2010-09-09, 04:14 PM
Saw some discussion of ability score damage... too sick to feel like reading the whole thing, but I will just point out that animals (including dire animals) are actually pretty easy to take out with INT damage/drain/burn.

Unrest
2010-09-09, 06:18 PM
If I'm reading Apocryphal right: if a guy paralyzes you, then turns around to walk away, you can just walk up to him and stab him in the back because Apocryphal is something like an Iron Heart Surge that activates whenever no-one is sensorically aware of your presence?

And as for the "trapped under a mountain" scenario - does that mean the character is, well, immortal? I mean, can you commit suicide while in this "nonexistent-unobserved" form?

Realms of Chaos
2010-09-10, 12:31 AM
A couple questions about Apocryphal:
1: Is there any particular reason why you used Wisdom scores rather than Intelligent scores. Sentience is typically measured as possessing 3+ Int, not simply having a wisdom score.
On that note, as every creature in existence possesses at least 1 Wisdom, what are the non-sentient entities of which you mention? A hypothetical video camera, perhaps? The trigger for a trap? what?
Did you intend to mention Intelligence rather than Wisdom? If you did, it would be possible for the xenonaught to continue not existing even if an animal or grasshopper happened to be in the area, making the ability a bit more usable.
2: Secondly, your definition of 'directly observed' leaves me a bit confused. Does a creature nearly need to be capable of seeing/hearing/smelling/etc. the xenonaught's square in order to make it exist or do they need to know specifically that the xenonaught is in the square (or is it both)? :smallconfused:

Also, why does a creature who exists in oddly paradoxical senses of the word and who serves as a gateway to the very void have diplomacy and handle animal as class skills? :smallamused:

Edit: I liked your pseudonaught back in the day but this is far more awesome, right up there with the Time Walker. Props.:smallbiggrin:

Lix Lorn
2010-09-10, 04:09 AM
...I love it. Especially that there's an ability that means you could build Hidan with it. (Giggle)

Rithaniel
2010-09-10, 09:50 AM
(Gah, was afraid the net wasn't coming back for a while there.)


I guess. It just seems weird for them to force the caster to use bluff. Maybe a Sense Motive check against the standard spell save DC (10+spell level+main casting ability modifier).

Well, the thing is that it's not only restricted to go against spells alone, so, making the guy who is just getting sniffed by a Rhino make a Will save to wake up doesn't make all that much sense, you know? The ability kind of makes it so that the diviner might as well be standing over him, and the Bluff is 'I'm not looking at you'.


I suppose. Nothingness just doesn't seem the same to me as elder evil. Elder evil is more mindless, and ancient beyond all imagination. Nothingness is an aspect of the universe, something that transcends the need for mind, and as old, if not older, that the universe.

:smallamused: Nothingness is an aspect of the universe now?

Keep in mind, an emptiness is still a thing, an expansive vacuum is still something, able to be objectively observed. True nothingness is antithetical to the physics of... well, everything.


Saw some discussion of ability score damage... too sick to feel like reading the whole thing, but I will just point out that animals (including dire animals) are actually pretty easy to take out with INT damage/drain/burn.

You actually have a point on that front. Course, the facts are that it's a single-target-only shot, and deals only 1 point of damage to each score. Would you really say that's too much?


If I'm reading Apocryphal right: if a guy paralyzes you, then turns around to walk away, you can just walk up to him and stab him in the back because Apocryphal is something like an Iron Heart Surge that activates whenever no-one is sensorically aware of your presence?

And as for the "trapped under a mountain" scenario - does that mean the character is, well, immortal? I mean, can you commit suicide while in this "nonexistent-unobserved" form?

Yeah man, pretty much the ability is as much an awesome blessing, as it is a curse. Yes, the guy would be immortal, as long as no one ever finds him, at which point he'd be put into danger again, and also, yes, the paralysis would fall off as soon as the guy stopped paying attention. :smalltongue:


A couple questions about Apocryphal:
1: Is there any particular reason why you used Wisdom scores rather than Intelligent scores. Sentience is typically measured as possessing 3+ Int, not simply having a wisdom score.
On that note, as every creature in existence possesses at least 1 Wisdom, what are the non-sentient entities of which you mention? A hypothetical video camera, perhaps? The trigger for a trap? what?
Did you intend to mention Intelligence rather than Wisdom? If you did, it would be possible for the xenonaught to continue not existing even if an animal or grasshopper happened to be in the area, making the ability a bit more usable.

Aight, lets see here:
1: Yeah, Wisdom was picked because it's more widely associated with perception and awareness, and the ability is more hinging on the thing's sentience as being defined by their awareness of the xenonaught, seeing as sentience consists half of the capability of thought (Intelligence) and half of the ability to understand the world around you (Wisdom). Normal plants, for example, lack both an Int and Wis score. These are just 'according to the D&D gospel', btw. 2: For some reason a spell from somewhere comes to mind, which allows for a tree or another, non-sentient plant to become a spy or observer for the caster, without granting mental stats. So yes, hypothetical video cameras. :smallbiggrin: 3: Yeah, definitely meant Wisdom, but you might have something with the 'if a grasshopper is in the area' thing. Maybe you'd have a suggestion for how to fix that? Cause it's been a hurdle that just refuses to be jumped over here.


2: Secondly, your definition of 'directly observed' leaves me a bit confused. Does a creature nearly need to be capable of seeing/hearing/smelling/etc. the xenonaught's square in order to make it exist or do they need to know specifically that the xenonaught is in the square (or is it both)? :smallconfused:

Well, the RAW that was stated was 'aware of the exact 5-foot square the xenonaught occupies', meaning that it doesn't specify if you have to know that it's the xenonaught in that square, you just have to know that he's there. The intent was that, if you are aware that there's something there, regardless of what you believe that something is, you're treated as being observing the xenonaught. If you have any suggestions that you think might clarify the concept, since you were confused, please offer them up.


Also, why does a creature who exists in oddly paradoxical senses of the word and who serves as a gateway to the very void have diplomacy and handle animal as class skills? :smallamused:

Well, "Still, some xenonaughts are confused by their reality, and seek out others, to try and unravel what their existence means." and "Some xenonaughts are not entirely aware of the unreality that drives them, and worship like any other member of their culture.".

Or, in other words, they don't have to be unpleasant. :smalltongue:


Edit: I liked your pseudonaught back in the day but this is far more awesome, right up there with the Time Walker. Props.:smallbiggrin:

:smallredface: Heh, well, thanks dude, appreciate it.


...I love it. Especially that there's an ability that means you could build Hidan with it. (Giggle)

Thank you ma'am, and yes, Hidan as a Xenonaught would be... interesting, to say the very least.

Realms of Chaos
2010-09-10, 12:55 PM
Aight, lets see here:
1: Yeah, Wisdom was picked because it's more widely associated with perception and awareness, and the ability is more hinging on the thing's sentience as being defined by their awareness of the xenonaught, seeing as sentience consists half of the capability of thought (Intelligence) and half of the ability to understand the world around you (Wisdom). Normal plants, for example, lack both an Int and Wis score. These are just 'according to the D&D gospel', btw. 2: For some reason a spell from somewhere comes to mind, which allows for a tree or another, non-sentient plant to become a spy or observer for the caster, without granting mental stats. So yes, hypothetical video cameras. :smallbiggrin: 3: Yeah, definitely meant Wisdom, but you might have something with the 'if a grasshopper is in the area' thing. Maybe you'd have a suggestion for how to fix that? Cause it's been a hurdle that just refuses to be jumped over here.

Well, as any creature that lacks a Wisdom Score also lacks an intelligence score, it may be best to just go for the traditional meaning of sentience to avoid the entire "grasshopper" issue. Only solution I can think of. :smallconfused:



Well, the RAW that was stated was 'aware of the exact 5-foot square the xenonaught occupies', meaning that it doesn't specify if you have to know that it's the xenonaught in that square, you just have to know that he's there. The intent was that, if you are aware that there's something there, regardless of what you believe that something is, you're treated as being observing the xenonaught. If you have any suggestions that you think might clarify the concept, since you were confused, please offer them up.

The problem here is that you specifically state later that senses can detect the xenonaught as if they were there, meaning that simply entering a creature's line of sight would end the effect. Perhaps you should make the ability activate automatically when not observed by anybody but only ends either when you attack a sentient creature (using the invisibility definition of attack) or when you cause a change in the world around you that is directly observed as it occurs, whichever comes first.

On a similar note, you state that your life force could be detected even though "Being Beyond Life" explicitly prohibits such an occurrence. :smallconfused:

unosarta
2010-09-10, 05:25 PM
Well, the thing is that it's not only restricted to go against spells alone, so, making the guy who is just getting sniffed by a Rhino make a Will save to wake up doesn't make all that much sense, you know? The ability kind of makes it so that the diviner might as well be standing over him, and the Bluff is 'I'm not looking at you'.
I suppose so. It still smacks a little weird to me, but I guess it works.


:smallamused: Nothingness is an aspect of the universe now?
Since when are vacuums not a part of the universe.


Keep in mind, an emptiness is still a thing, an expansive vacuum is still something, able to be objectively observed. True nothingness is antithetical to the physics of... well, everything.
Emptiness and nothingness are two different things. To me, emptiness is the absence of something that once was (or possibly will be). Nothingness is truly having nothing; such as in a vacuum.

Jarrick
2010-09-10, 07:53 PM
This class is very cool. Im not sure exactly how well it would fit in in an average campaign world, but it almost makes me want to create a campaign world around it. ::Bookmarked for future use:: :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

One of these in a party with a shadowcaster, a dread necromancer, an Ozodrin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153536), and a No Life King (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150971) would be the most epicly dark party ever. :smallcool:

Maybe throw in some Connoisseur (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93577) for good measure.