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The Rabbler
2010-09-06, 09:19 PM
What is the easiest and most reliable way to treat an opponent as flat-footed?

all sources allowed (in case it matters)

Private-Prinny
2010-09-06, 09:25 PM
Do they have to be flat-footed, or will denying them Dex to AC suffice? If they have to be flat-footed, the only ways that immediately spring to mind are surprise rounds and Grease.

Bakkan
2010-09-06, 09:31 PM
With a high Concentration, the Sapphire Nightmare Blade maneuver from Tome of Battle can do this fairly reliably. It takes your standard action, includes only a single attack, but adds 1d6 to your damage in addition to treating them as flat-footed. A failed Concentration check imposes a -2 penalty on your attack and adds no extra damage.

You can get this maneuver with a feat (which only allows you to use it 1/encounter) or with a level of Warblade or Swordsage. Between the two, I recommend Warblade for a dip for better HD, BAB, recovery mechanic, and Weapon Aptitude. With one level of Warblade, you can essentially treat someone as flat-footed every other round.

gomipile
2010-09-06, 09:32 PM
Also, the Hidden Weapon skill trick from CS, I think.

FMArthur
2010-09-06, 09:33 PM
Avenging Executioner can make enemies in any stage of fear count as flat-footed to the Avenging Executioner for the purposes of Sudden Strike. I'd like to pretend that it grants full flat-footedness and the last words "for the purposes of" is just the reason why and not a qualifier... but it would take a great deal of finagling to slip that one by.

The Hidden Blade and Sudden Draw skill tricks do the trick. Confound the Big Folk makes me sigh at the idea that only small characters can be good at Iaijutsu, but that's the mark it leaves. I for one am not going to modify a Iaijutsu Focus specialist into a tiny runt just for that so it's kind of frustrating.

The Rabbler
2010-09-06, 11:31 PM
hmmm, where is Confound the Big Folk found? That sounds like exactly what I'm looking for. I'm in the concept stage of building a Whisper Gnome iaijutsu factotum.

EDIT: I take it back; Confound the Big Folk is too restrictive to work. anyone have any other ideas?

FMArthur
2010-09-07, 12:21 AM
IMO the best way to take advantage of Iaijutsu Focus is a level or three of Marshal in a Charisma-focused build. And if you're already going that route anyway... you might as well make an intimidator, since you'll be boosting it when you boost Iaijutsu with Motivate Charisma.

Be a Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar to start with a massive 22 Charisma.
Be a Marshal for 3 levels to get Motivate Charisma and Motivate Dexterity. Take Barbarian 1 level to get Pounce, and just take Fighter levels until you get into Avenging Executioner.

Take Skill Knowledge (Iaijutsu Focus), Dreadful Wrath, Improved Initiative, EWP (Gnome Quickrazor), Two-Weapon Fighting, Intimidating Rage and Imperious Command.

Stay Motivating Dexterity until combat starts to roll a high initiative (get a Warning weapon!), and on your first turn Motivate Charisma and murder the strongest flatfooted foe with a pounce. Dreadful Wrath kicks in and gives you Frightful Presence to make some foes Shaken. Round 2? Never Outnumbered, Intimidating Rage, and Rapid Intimidation twice will have drastic disabling effects on your foes. If you have Bloody Murder already (ECL 11), it is possible that every enemy within 30ft will be doing their best to flee from you on their turn, if you aren't making them cower. Everyone is now at least Shaken if not Frightened or Panicked, but Cowering for the next round thanks to Imperious Command. Your main targets are going to be Panicked but will Cower for now. Almost no one is going to be able to resist your huge intimidation checks.

The Rabbler
2010-09-07, 12:41 AM
IMO the best way to take advantage of Iaijutsu Focus is a level or three of Marshal in a Charisma-focused build. And if you're already going that route anyway... you might as well make an intimidator, since you'll be boosting it when you boost Iaijutsu with Motivate Charisma.

Be a Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar to start with a massive 22 Charisma.
Be a Marshal for 3 levels to get Motivate Charisma and Motivate Dexterity. Take Barbarian 1 level to get Pounce, and just take Fighter levels until you get into Avenging Executioner.

Take Skill Knowledge (Iaijutsu Focus), Dreadful Wrath, Improved Initiative, EWP (Gnome Quickrazor), Two-Weapon Fighting, Intimidating Rage and Imperious Command.

Stay Motivating Dexterity until combat starts to roll a high initiative (get a Warning weapon!), and on your first turn Motivate Charisma and murder the strongest flatfooted foe with a pounce. Dreadful Wrath kicks in and gives you Frightful Presence to make some foes Shaken. Round 2? Never Outnumbered, Intimidating Rage, and Rapid Intimidation twice will have drastic disabling effects on your foes. If you have Bloody Murder already (ECL 11), it is possible that every enemy within 30ft will be doing their best to flee from you on their turn, if you aren't making them cower. Everyone is now at least Shaken if not Frightened or Panicked, but Cowering for the next round thanks to Imperious Command. Your main targets are going to be Panicked but will Cower for now. Almost no one is going to be able to resist your huge intimidation checks.

this looks nice and powerful, thanks!

ericgrau
2010-09-07, 01:28 AM
The simplest way is to wield a bow and beat a monster's initiative, any monster, which isn't hard. Then you get a full attack. Get the drop on them and you get a surprise round on top of that.

The simplest way for repeated rounds is greater invisibility or another spell.

Bakkan
2010-09-07, 01:05 PM
The simplest way for repeated rounds is greater invisibility or another spell.

<pedant> I don't believe being invisible makes your opponents flat-footed, just denies them their Dexterity bonus to AC. Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm) is the description. </pedant>

El Dorado
2010-09-07, 01:19 PM
Gnomish quickrazor from Races of Stone (I think). That might help.

Greenish
2010-09-07, 01:25 PM
Stay Motivating Dexterity until combat starts to roll a high initiative (get a Warning weapon!), and on your first turn Motivate Charisma and murder the strongest flatfooted foe with a pounce. Dreadful Wrath kicks in and gives you Frightful Presence to make some foes Shaken. Round 2? Never Outnumbered, Intimidating Rage, and Rapid Intimidation twice will have drastic disabling effects on your foes.Can't use IF when raging though.

Ruinix
2010-09-07, 01:45 PM
what about improved feint ?

Greenish
2010-09-07, 01:51 PM
what about improved feint ?No dice, that only denies Dex to AC.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-07, 01:52 PM
Ring of Blinking. Costs a standard action to activate, but opponents are flat-footed against you for the entire duration.

Greenish
2010-09-07, 01:56 PM
Ring of Blinking. Costs a standard action to activate, but opponents are flat-footed against you for the entire duration.No dice, that only denies Dex to AC.

Ruinix
2010-09-07, 01:58 PM
i got it !

distracting shot from an archer budy.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-07, 02:00 PM
No dice, that only denies Dex to AC.

True, I had assumed the OP wanted to know how to create the flat-footed condition in order to gain the lost DEX bonus to AC to generate SA. I apologize to the OP if my assumption is incorrect. This seemed to me to be the most likely reason why he'd want to do it, since the inability to make AoO's isn't that big of an advantage.

2xMachina
2010-09-07, 02:03 PM
Surprising Riposte from Drow of the Underdark?

Bit hard to get, but... with Quickrazors and Invisible Blade could work with it.
RAW wise though... they're not supposed to. Invisible blade feints as a free action, but that's not Improved Feint. Quickrazors can be drawn as a free action, but it's not quick draw.

But your DM might think that it's good enough to qualify you for the feat.

Greenish
2010-09-07, 02:04 PM
True, I had assumed the OP wanted to know how to create the flat-footed condition in order to gain the lost DEX bonus to AC to generate SA. I apologize to the OP if my assumption is incorrect. This seemed to me to be the most likely reason why he'd want to do it, since the inability to make AoO's isn't that big of an advantage.One could assume that if OP merely needed to qualify for SA, he'd asked about that instead of flat-footed specifically.

Oh, and:
I'm in the concept stage of building a Whisper Gnome iaijutsu factotum.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-07, 02:04 PM
One could assume that if OP merely needed to qualify for SA, he'd asked about that instead of flat-footed specifically.

Oh, and:One could assume that if OP merely needed to qualify for SA, he'd asked about that instead of flat-footed specifically.

Ah, I missed that second post. Yeah, that'd explain it. :smalltongue:

Lhurgyof
2010-09-07, 05:31 PM
Marbles from the AEG?

DanReiv
2010-09-07, 06:10 PM
Blurstrike weapon enhancement from MIC.

+2, 10/day opponent is flat-footed against the next attack (swift to activate).

Distract Assaillant from SC.

Assassin/Wiz/Sorc 1. Swift action to cast. Will save. Opponent flat-footed until his next action.

Easy enough for a factotum.

The Rabbler
2010-09-07, 06:16 PM
BlurstrikeAssassin/Wiz/Sorc 1. Swift action to cast. Will save. Opponent flat-footed until his next action.


PERFECT. that's amazing. all I need is an at-will item. possibly even on my weapon. anyone know if that wouldn't work?

FMArthur
2010-09-07, 06:24 PM
Get a wand of it and stick it in a wand chamber. Wand chambers are even from Dungeonscape itself.


Can't use IF when raging though.
Obviously. The build assumes you aren't going to be able to IF after the first round of combat anyway, and merely uses rage as a free intimidate with Intimidating Rage. You could go without raging at all; Barbarian 1 is about pounce, not anything else. This was because I forgot Blurstrike weapons, though. I wish they hadn't been nerfed for MiC; the RotW Blurstrike property basically solved the problem without further issue.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-07, 06:59 PM
PERFECT. that's amazing. all I need is an at-will item. possibly even on my weapon. anyone know if that wouldn't work?

Technically, activating a magic item is supposed to be a standard action. Ask your DM if you can waive that rule for a swift action spell item.

The Rabbler
2010-09-07, 07:00 PM
Get a wand of it and stick it in a wand chamber. Wand chambers are even from Dungeonscape itself.

will a wand chamber even fit in a gnomish quickblade?



Obviously. The build assumes you aren't going to be able to IF after the first round of combat anyway, and merely uses rage as a free intimidate with Intimidating Rage. You could go without raging at all; Barbarian 1 is about pounce, not anything else. This was because I forgot Blurstrike weapons, though. I wish they hadn't been nerfed for MiC; the RotW Blurstrike property basically solved the problem without further issue.

I might be able to convince my DM to allow it.

FMArthur
2010-09-07, 07:45 PM
Technically, activating a magic item is supposed to be a standard action. Ask your DM if you can waive that rule for a swift action spell item.

Read the Rules Compendium. It takes as long as the original spell now, even when it makes very little sense.

AmberVael
2010-09-07, 08:13 PM
Flick of the Wrist feat, from Complete Warrior.
Palm Dagger skill use, also from Complete warrior.

Both usable once per foe per combat, I believe.

ericgrau
2010-09-07, 08:58 PM
Read the Rules Compendium. It takes as long as the original spell now, even when it makes very little sense.

While scrolls and other magic items were annoyingly ambiguous and needed clarifying, the rules for wands say standard action unless the original spell takes longer.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-07, 10:06 PM
Read the Rules Compendium. It takes as long as the original spell now, even when it makes very little sense.

Ah, I see that. I honestly have only ever looked in the Rules Compendium like twice.

Being able to activate such an item as a swift action would be nice, but only if you're not planning on doing a lot of other swift actions...

gomipile
2010-09-07, 10:11 PM
While scrolls and other magic items were annoyingly ambiguous and needed clarifying, the rules for wands say standard action unless the original spell takes longer.

"Activating a spell trigger item takes the same
amount of time as the casting time of the spell
that the item stores[...]" Rules Compendium P.85

2xMachina
2010-09-07, 10:23 PM
Marbles from the AEG?

This.

Mix with Collar of perpetual attendance, for the Unseen Servant to scatter it for you.

Most don't have 5 ranks in balance.