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Cicciograna
2010-09-07, 03:42 AM
Imagine the most powerful Jedi pitted against the most powerful Ninja you can conceive. Who would win this battle, considering the inherent powers and abilities of each combatant?
Note: this question is not related to any particular game system, but is a mere speculation on the fluff of both concepts. [Maybe the Media section would have been more accurate...]

gomipile
2010-09-07, 03:50 AM
So, Jedi vs. Swordsage then?

HunterOfJello
2010-09-07, 04:04 AM
Lvl 20 Swordsage?

Lvl 20 Jade Phoenix Mage?



I think both could take out any Jedi, if equiped with a weapon and a spell pouch

DragonOfUndeath
2010-09-07, 04:24 AM
a Jedi has precognition and The Force, but a Ninja has Kick-Ass stealth, assassin skillz. basically the Rule Of Cool demands a legion of Jedi Vs a legion of Ninja. the last Ninja and Jedi destroy whats left of the battle field and die in the process

dsmiles
2010-09-07, 04:52 AM
Jedi...
http://fc30.deviantart.com/fs29/f/2008/090/c/2/Miraluka_Jedi_by_artbytravis.jpg
vs.

Ninja?
http://vampjac.com/lj/humor/gygax/NinjaStanding.jpg

I can't decide!!!! :smalleek:

icefractal
2010-09-07, 04:56 AM
"Ninja" is a pretty broad term. Are we talking historical ninja? Action-movie ninja? Anime-style "martial arts sorcerers" ninja? Those aren't even close to the same ballpark.

Even Jedi vary a bit. Original movies "with effort, the strongest one can slowly lift a small spacecraft" Jedi, or EU "throw star destroyers into the sun" Jedi?

I don't think I've seen any ninja that can attack from across a solar system though, so if they start the battle far enough apart, I guess that would be advantage to an (EU) Jedi.

Aotrs Commander
2010-09-07, 04:56 AM
Depends on the type of ninja, really. I think jedi would have difficulties against Naruto-style ninja (the specifics would depend on what two named characters were involved), for example.

DragonOfUndeath
2010-09-07, 05:15 AM
single-blade lightsaber? double-blade lightsaber? 2 double-blade lightsabers? 2 single-blade lightsabers? all these Jedi would fight differently. you need to give us a battlefield and their battle-style to come up with an accurate result. BTW would Force Precognition tell a Jedi where a Ninja will strike from?

Fouredged Sword
2010-09-07, 05:27 AM
Ninja rely on stealth and suprise. Jedi can see the future. Jedi has the edge.

DragonOfUndeath
2010-09-07, 05:42 AM
only Jedi masters can see the future and even then it is hard to find the one that will happen (according to episode 2 at least)

Spiryt
2010-09-07, 05:47 AM
I, of course, take Rickson by Armbar.

DragonOfUndeath
2010-09-07, 05:49 AM
How high would a Jedi's Spot Check be? even with the Force Precognition ( maybe a +2-4 circumstance bonus) a mid-level Ninja would own a mid-level Jedi if the Jedi couldn't see the poisoned daggers flying from the shadows

Aotrs Commander
2010-09-07, 05:50 AM
Also, any fair comparision would grant equal technological equipment to both sides, otherwise, the comparision is not jedi verses ninja, it becomes a question of flintlock rifle verses blaster rifle. So, either the jedi must have swords, or the ninja must have lightsabres.

At that point, it's a question of whether the ninja have supernatural powers or not. If not, then it's a caster verses noncaster question; if so, it depends of the relative power levels in question and how they interact.

The Naruto ninja, given a technological parity, would probably be on at least even, if not outright superiority in terms of force verses chakra (again, depending on the combatants in question), for example. Non-magic action-movie ninja...not so much.

(Also, the idea of Tenten with lightsabres is kind of fracking scary...)

DragonOfUndeath
2010-09-07, 05:58 AM
make a lightsaber a +2 longsword or vorporal blade and Bingo! problem solved. i think we need to add details so:
Ardite a 30 year-old Human Jedi with 2 single bladed green lightsabers, he likes to use Force Lightning over any others and prefers the saber over Force powers. he should probably be around level 9-10 to make the fight interesting

AvatarZero
2010-09-07, 06:11 AM
If you're taking historical ninja, humble assassins who used improvised weapons and disguise to kill nobles who were too proud to look at the faces of their servants (you know, the really boring version of ninja that some smartass always trots out during debates about ninja), then the Jedi would win. Reading people's intentions and being humble enough to talk to the people around them would work. Sith might have trouble with the second one.

If you're talking the mystical meditative ninja that people actually like, then it's a trick question. If ninjutsu existed in the same universe as the Force, it'd be an alternative Force tradition. You'd have stealthy force users vs lightsaber-wielding force users, Scoundrel/Force Adept/Force Disciple vs Jedi/Jedi Knight/Jedi Master if you want to use Saga rules. Grab the popcorn.

Cicciograna
2010-09-07, 06:13 AM
I'd like to remark what I said in the first post: this comparison is based merely on the fluff we have on both the Jedi and the Ninjas. So, imagine the most powerful Jedi you can conceive, taking inspiration from all the sources you please, be these the Original Star Wars movies, the following three Episodes, KOTOR, Star Wars Saga, whatever you like, but without calling into play actual game mechanics (character level, hit point damage and the like).
Then do the same thing with the Ninja, quoting Naruto, action movies, Anime Ninjas and whatever you prefer.

It's obvious that what constitutes the most powerful Jedi (or Ninja) for me could be way different from your ideas of perfect Jedi/Ninja, but that's okay, since when one compares fluff there isn't hard data to speculate on. However, whatever the best contestant you can conceive, imagine a situation in which, in a deciduous forest in summer, at dawn, these two fighters clash to death. Who would win?

LordShotGun
2010-09-07, 06:14 AM
Jedi can slow poisons in thier blood (or at the least, slow toxins that they breath so the ability could be expanded) rendering any kind of poison useless.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Breath_Control

Also, we are talking about the GREATEST jedi versus the GREATEST ninja. Thus the jedi would have precognition and if they are even half as powerful as Force Unleashed's Starkiller character, then the jedi could just DESINTIGRATE the ninja with his MIND.

See this video of Starkiller incinerating masses of stormtroopers (and yes they are stormtroopers but my point still stands)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94-4c0eJikk

Besides, even if george lucus wanted to base the jedi on the samurai they ended up being more like ninja. There for the points in moot, because while all jedi are ninjas not all ninjas are jedi.

DragonOfUndeath
2010-09-07, 06:34 AM
since the fantasy ninja is designed as an assassin, if they existed in a world with Jedi they would adapt to using Force-Nulling poison or fields, especially if Magic is also in the world. we should set up 3 stereotype Jedi and Ninjas and do a tournament thing if we want conclusive evidence

Aotrs Commander
2010-09-07, 07:10 AM
I'd like to remark what I said in the first post: this comparison is based merely on the fluff we have on both the Jedi and the Ninjas. So, imagine the most powerful Jedi you can conceive, taking inspiration from all the sources you please, be these the Original Star Wars movies, the following three Episodes, KOTOR, Star Wars Saga, whatever you like, but without calling into play actual game mechanics (character level, hit point damage and the like).
Then do the same thing with the Ninja, quoting Naruto, action movies, Anime Ninjas and whatever you prefer.

That scenario is meaningless. It is based on personal opinions, as we're going right outside established characters. You're asking us who would win in a battle between two non-existant characters, which is so nebulous as to be pointless.

As well as an potentially unfair comparison, because the scale between Star Wars and pretty much anything with ninja in it is massively different. At the top level, the Force is capably of destroying planets, because Star Wars spans a galactic stage. Ninja, even those of a Naruto scale (unless you want to start considering DBZ characters ninja, which is a huge stretch), generally do not act in a reality where much more than one world is the theatre, so at the top level they do not need such wide-spanning power in the narrative they are written for. (Not to mention that you are would be then falling WELL outside what constitutes "jedi" as opposed to "force-user".)

And if there are ninja with that level of power, well, you end up comparing infinite verses infinite, which is an utterly pointless exercise.

So, that scenatio is basically either an utterly subjective "how long is a piece of string" or, "could Gil Grissom win in a fight against Sauron?" (I mean, the man's a damn good scientist - with a gun, when push comes to shove - but it's freakin' Sauron1.)

If you want a reasonable debate (or at least as reasonable as these things get), you need to pick two known, internally consistent characters (the better well-documented their abilities the better) of approximately the same level.

Now, if you want to debate a battle between Asoka Tano and say, 12-year old Sasuke Uchiha (or Neij or Shikamaru) or Clone Wars Obiwan and Kakashi (or Psylocke, or I dunno, SubZero or something), then there are grounds for a reasonable comparison, and it would come down to the skill, personality and ability of the characters in question. (Noting that I personally think those would be reasonably even matches.)



(Also, if this is not to be statted out, this really should have been in the Media boards and not the roleplaying section.)



1Horatio Caine, on the other hand...

The_Admiral
2010-09-07, 07:25 AM
Somebody grab a ninja class i have a jedi in my sig

Tiki Snakes
2010-09-07, 07:35 AM
I think it's quite clear that, going from the precedents we have available, the most powerful ninja had better not give the most powerful jedi a reason to want him dead.

Some of the Eu stuff in particular is just lulzy in it's level of power-creep.

I don't think the lazer-swords even come into it really.

MightyTim
2010-09-07, 08:09 AM
I think we can approximate a Jedi's precognition abilities by taking a look at the Order 66 scene from Episode 3. A great number of very powerful Jedi were caught off guard (including members of the Jedi Council), and subsequently died because of it, so I wouldn't completely wipe a ninja off just yet.

The problem occurs if the Ninja doesn't win right off the bat. In Episode 5, Vader can stop shots from a blaster with his hand, so it would be fair to say that once the Ninja has lost the element of surprise, any ranged attack he's got isn't going to do squat. Couple this with the fact that up close, lightsaber >>> Katana.

The Ninja needs to make sure his first sneak attack counts, because it's likely he's not going to get another chance.

I'd say you'd have to run the scenario "Deadliest Warrior" style to know for sure, but I'd give about 2-1 odds to the Jedi.

Esser-Z
2010-09-07, 08:09 AM
Given as ninjas are assassins, skilled with poisons and the like, I'll give it to the ninja--because those are exactly the techniques Atton Rand talks about for killing Jedi.

In a straight up fight, of course, the Jedi will win. But a ninja's job is to avoid the straight up fight.

candycorn
2010-09-07, 08:13 AM
It should be assumed that masters of stealth would, at a bare minimum, have the ability to figure out how to hide from force users. It stands to reason that the greatest ninja would know that.

Wasn't there some sort of cat or rodent that was basically Jedi kryptonite?

EDIT: Also, even for Star Destroyer throwing Jedi, wouldn't that just be measured against Bleach or Death Note?

Crasical
2010-09-07, 08:30 AM
[Personal Opinion]

Ninja are fantastic and great, and at a low power level comparable to Jedi.

However, 'The most Powerful Jedi Ever' is going to have serious one-ups on the most powerful Ninja, because at the upper levels Jedi are going to have enough Force-fu to have a whole suite of powerful psychic abilities, starting at precognition and ending with powerful telekinesis.

[Deadliest Warrior] EDGE, JEDI [/Deadliest Warrior]

FelixG
2010-09-07, 08:36 AM
It should be assumed that masters of stealth would, at a bare minimum, have the ability to figure out how to hide from force users. It stands to reason that the greatest ninja would know that.

Wasn't there some sort of cat or rodent that was basically Jedi kryptonite?

EDIT: Also, even for Star Destroyer throwing Jedi, wouldn't that just be measured against Bleach or Death Note?

There is a lemur like critter that creates a force nullification bubble, but it cant be removed from its tree without dieing.

On ninjas learning to avoid the force: are they alive?
Yes= they cant avoid the force
No = they are still made up of force

The only things "not" linked to the force are the 'Vong so a Vong ninja might be a good match...

But anything else. Jedi wins. Why? Because the jedi can use mind tricks throw starships at them or just know exactly where they are at all times.

Oh and look into the future to find them specifically or dodge their attacks.

Morph Bark
2010-09-07, 08:48 AM
If we'd talk Saga Edition Star Wars d20 versus the 3.5 CAd Ninja... I presume it would end up even depending on the situation. The Ninja is bad in a game where growth is expected to be exponential, so perhaps it'd fare better against lineairly-growing characters.

If it is about the strongest Jedi conceiveable versus the strongest Ninja conceivable... well then aren't we talking Starkiller versus one of the Mangekyou-awakened Uchiha straight out of Naruto? Man, scary thought... :smalleek:

Esser-Z
2010-09-07, 08:53 AM
There is a lemur like critter that creates a force nullification bubble, but it cant be removed from its tree without dieing.

Well, it CAN be. It can, through a difficult process, be transplanted onto mobile frames. Thrawn used this!

FelixG
2010-09-07, 08:58 AM
Well, it CAN be. It can, through a difficult process, be transplanted onto mobile frames. Thrawn used this!

Ah so he did!

But arguably this would make the ninja even more apparent because there would be a huge hole in the uber jedis perception of the force (force just stops at it making a bubble around the ninja)

Esser-Z
2010-09-07, 09:00 AM
While it would indeed make the ninja's square (in D&D terms) detecable... it would also make him completely immune to the Jedi's abilities. It's a common theme in SW material that a Jedi without the Force is often close to helpless--excluding those who joined the order after having previous training, of course. Like Kyle Katarn!

FelixG
2010-09-07, 09:02 AM
While it would indeed make the ninja's square (in D&D terms) detecable... it would also make him completely immune to the Jedi's abilities. It's a common theme in SW material that a Jedi without the Force is often close to helpless--excluding those who joined the order after having previous training, of course. Like Kyle Katarn!

Not entirely true.

It makes (if i remember correctly) a 20-30 foot sphere of empty force perception.

And even if they cant zap the ninja (force lightning style) they can still hurl boulders and bigger things into that space as once it is thrown its just flying, the force is no longer propelling it.

Esser-Z
2010-09-07, 09:03 AM
I'm pretty sure a single Ysalimari is a 3-ft radius. More than one in proximity create a much larger sphere.

Hurling stuff is something I hadn't considered, heh. Though the theoretical superninja should have great AC, he would likely die in this scenario. It is, after all, not his theater of operation.

Person_Man
2010-09-07, 09:06 AM
Depends on the type of ninja, really. I think jedi would have difficulties against Naruto-style ninja (the specifics would depend on what two named characters were involved), for example.

True that. Ninja = Wizard for a lot of Eastern authors. There's also a lot less concern for explaining a Ninja/Wizard's abilities (or they spend an overly long time explaining the rules of ninjitsu or alchemy or whatever, but the main characters all get to break them). When your main character has new powers as the plot demands (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NewPowersAsThePlotDemands), there's nothing you can do to defeat them.

Zaydos
2010-09-07, 09:12 AM
Jedi might have precognition but it didn't stop them from being snuck up on by skilled assassins (the nogrim), or even clone troopers (okay that was a sudden betrayal but still).

Also look at Palpatine's stats, canonically the strongest dark sider ever, and he's easily killed by an equal level Soldier (StarWars d20 version of fighter) turned Bounty Hunter (gets sneak attack). So I'd have to go for the ninja.

FelixG
2010-09-07, 09:18 AM
Jedi might have precognition but it didn't stop them from being snuck up on by skilled assassins (the nogrim), or even clone troopers (okay that was a sudden betrayal but still).

Also look at Palpatine's stats, canonically the strongest dark sider ever, and he's easily killed by an equal level Soldier (StarWars d20 version of fighter) turned Bounty Hunter (gets sneak attack). So I'd have to go for the ninja.

Er hes not the strongest darksider ever though? that falls to Starkiller and he hasnt even mastered his stuff yet.

IIRC wasnt Exar Kun more powerful than Palpatine as well?

Zaydos
2010-09-07, 09:19 AM
Er hes not the strongest darksider ever though? that falls to Starkiller and he hasnt even mastered his stuff yet.

IIRC wasnt Exar Kun more powerful than Palpatine as well?

According to Lucas which takes precedence as canon over the EU no he wasn't. According to the EU... Revan.

Edit: Technically Vader was stronger or as strong as well; even after his potential was cut down to 20%.

FelixG
2010-09-07, 09:22 AM
According to Lucas which takes precedence as canon over the EU no he wasn't. According to the EU... Revan.

Edit: Technically Vader was stronger or as strong as well; even after his potential was cut down to 20%.

The question was the most powerful hypothetical force user, so we would be using the EU in its entirety most likely?

Zaydos
2010-09-07, 09:24 AM
The question was the most powerful hypothetical force user, so we would be using the EU in its entirety most likely?

The problem being that canonically Exar Kun exists and was weaker than Palpatine. Although if we're talking about hypothetical possible power it would be Anakin if he had not gotten his limbs cut off and replaced with machine parts.

Esser-Z
2010-09-07, 09:28 AM
Revan. Or, rather, ancient sith in general---at least when it comes to direct combat, both the Sith and Jedi of past eras were more powerful.

FelixG
2010-09-07, 09:30 AM
Revan. Or, rather, ancient sith in general---at least when it comes to direct combat, both the Sith and Jedi of past eras were more powerful.

haha just got me thinking battle meditation + mooks = dead ninja :P

Esser-Z
2010-09-07, 09:32 AM
Potentially. Depends on the stealth aspect--the meditating Jedi is vulnerable to an assassin, I do believe. But, yes. In general, combat results in dead Ninja.

In his preferred situation, the Ninja would use poison, sleep, paralysis, and so forth. Thus, the Jedi would be the victim of his sinister technique. Hoo-ah. Yes that was a Pokemon reference.

Rhyvurg
2010-09-07, 09:37 AM
Jedi, easy. Jedi can sense the presence of living things through the Force, ninja stealth means nothing. Jedi are so fast in combat, they enter the realm of bullet-time speed. Seeing the future is not an exact science, but their combat precog is superb. They can will themselves to be stronger and faster, and none of the ninja's projectile weapons can touch a Jedi, either through dodging, lightsaber block, or TK deflection. And then, the Jedi can smash the ninja to death without having to touch him with his saber, anything around them is a weapon to a Jedi. And even if there's nothing to throw, he can just smash the ninja against the ground.

Esser-Z
2010-09-07, 09:38 AM
Rhyvurg, I direct you to KOTOR II, specifically Atton Rand's talk about how to kill Jedi. In a straight on fight, yeah, they win. But you don't fight them straight on.


And indirect combat is exactly what a ninja is trained for.

Unless, of course, it's a fantasy style frontline martial artist/mage ninja. Then Jedi win.

FelixG
2010-09-07, 09:39 AM
Rhyvurg, I direct you to KOTOR II, specifically Atton Rand's talk about how to kill Jedi. In a straight on fight, yeah, they win. But you don't fight them straight on.


And indirect combat is exactly what a ninja is trained for.

But there are many MANY force users that excel in indirect combat, which the "ultimate jedi" would know all about giving him the upper hand again

Esser-Z
2010-09-07, 09:41 AM
Well, okay. A theoretical ultimate jedi would probably win. Things like anti-poison meditations and the like, yeah.

I was thinking more mundane. If it's the best of the best though, Jedi will beat most things. But not all things--see Planar Shepherds.

Zore
2010-09-07, 09:50 AM
I think, canonically, the Jedi Exile is 'more powerful' than Revan. Her game let her go to level 50! And there was that whole she's a hole in the force that can potentially kill it thing. And the ability to twist and draw in allies among everyone but especially force sensitives. Evil!Exile would make one of the best Star Wars villains...

In a straight up contest betwixt ninja and Jedi, I think the Jedi are going to win if we go by most depictions of ninja and Jedi. If we go, for instance, Naruto vs. Barris Offee I'm pretty sure the ninjas. If we go, well almost anyone else in the Naruto-verse, vs someone like the Exile? It gets a lot dicier.

Thrawn183
2010-09-07, 09:50 AM
Don't forget, the EU also states that naturally stealthy creatures are much more difficult to detect in the force. It stands to reason that the stealthiest beings ever [/ninjawank] would be virtually impossible to detect.

Esser-Z
2010-09-07, 09:51 AM
I think, canonically, the Jedi Exile is 'more powerful' than Revan. Her game let her go to level 50! And there was that whole she's a hole in the force that can potentially kill it thing. And the ability to twist and draw in allies among everyone but especially force sensitives. Evil!Exile would make one of the best Star Wars villains...

In a straight up contest betwixt ninja and Jedi, I think the Jedi are going to win if we go by most depictions of ninja and Jedi. If we go, for instance, Naruto vs. Barris Offee I'm pretty sure the ninjas. If we go, well almost anyone else in the Naruto-verse, vs someone like the Exile? It gets a lot dicier.

Naruto isn't a ninja. He's a battlemage.

As for the exile, remember that she also GAINS EXP. IN UNIVERSE. I loved that reveal.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-07, 09:58 AM
Ninjas aren't really powerful at all.

Saying Jedi vs. Ninja is like saying Wizard vs. Rogue. Gee, I wonder who wins?

Crasical
2010-09-07, 10:00 AM
According to Lucas which takes precedence as canon over the EU no he wasn't. According to the EU... Revan.

You know, when I did my first playthrough of KotOR, I played as a Scoundrel->Councilor. Used a blaster-rifle instead of a lightsaber and sniped things. My epic duel with Malak at the end of the game involved me spamming Force Speed and leading him on a wild goose chase over the arena, dropping mine-patches anytime I had a lead. He died eventually, though.

Anyway I had max-level by that point, and I wasn't gonna be taking Malak in a hand-to-hand duel at any point. So we should remember that we're not talking about game-system jedi, we're talking about theoretical 'everything mastered' Jedi.

Crasical
2010-09-07, 10:01 AM
Ninjas aren't really powerful at all.

Saying Jedi vs. Ninja is like saying Wizard vs. Rogue. Gee, I wonder who wins?

Saying things like that is just asking for a long, ugly argument, man. Can you try being a little less inflammatory?

Esser-Z
2010-09-07, 10:02 AM
Let's see a non-cheesed Wizard take a coup de grace sneak attack at night and survive, eh? Or a legitimately powerful poison*.


*Funny story. My wizard was poisoned in my Saturday game last weekend. Rolled a nat18 and nat20.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-07, 10:04 AM
Saying things like that is just asking for a long, ugly argument, man. Can you try being a little less inflammatory?

I apologize if that came across as inflammatory. It just seems like common sense to me.

Ninjas can...hide and disguise and stuff. Jedi can...control others and their environment with their minds, and have a sixth sense for danger.

It just really seems like a no-brainer. I don't really understand the whole fascination with ninjas anyway.

candycorn
2010-09-07, 10:10 AM
Naruto isn't a ninja. He's a battlemage.

As for the exile, remember that she also GAINS EXP. IN UNIVERSE. I loved that reveal.

Go here. Press Ctrl F. type ninja. See how often it comes up. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naruto)

Esser-Z
2010-09-07, 10:11 AM
Go here. Press Ctrl F. type ninja. See how often it comes up. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naruto)
Yes. They call him a ninja. Doesn't make him act like one.

Zaydos
2010-09-07, 10:12 AM
Except we're dealing with fluff here. The fluff for ninjas is the stuff of legend and they do get magical abilities in some of those, and even the ability to cast spells. Fluff for Jedi say that none ever master all aspects, as each individual Jedi has specific talents... except maybe Anakin who was born from the Force.

Also ninja's are highly trained assassins who use dark mystical practices perverted from those of warrior-monks.

Jedi are an elite order of warrior-monks.

Sith are highly trained assassins who use dark mystical practices perverted from those of Jedi.........

candycorn
2010-09-07, 10:14 AM
Yes. They call him a ninja. Doesn't make him act like one.

Ninja in folklore were attributed with walking on water, invisibility, control over the elements. If your definition of ninja includes "must be entirely mundane", then yes, jedi will win. If you allow the concept of the mystical ninja, it's not always so clear.

Jedi were basically sci-fi samurai (honor code, sword based combat, larger than life, special abilities to offset guns and such). Sith were basically Sci-Fi ninja (elemental control-lightning, misdirection, assassination).

Esser-Z
2010-09-07, 10:45 AM
A ninja is still a stealth based spy and assassin. Not a frontline warrior. In a bright orange jumpsuit.

Zaydos
2010-09-07, 10:48 AM
A ninja is still a stealth based spy and assassin. Not a frontline warrior. In a bright orange jumpsuit.

But they are often trained to fight on the front-lines when necessary, and then there was the time when ninja clans fought and they did end up in out and out fights. A ninja was not a soldier, yes, but they didn't need stealth and assassination to fight. The bright orange jumpsuit, though... yeah no ninja would wear that.

Esser-Z
2010-09-07, 11:01 AM
Fair enough! They're still not, uh, dudes what pull down dropships with their minds, and fling them into each other!

(I note I personally prefer OT style far weaker Jedi, but that's not what Lucas says, alas.)

Zaydos
2010-09-07, 11:05 AM
No they just can avoid mystical detection, turn invisible, walk through walls, and teleport through shadows... dang now I want to make a mystic ninja PrC. Or maybe a Tier 2 base class for ninja if I could manage it.

But the point being, flinging spaceships at enemies who you can't find does nothing for you.

FelixG
2010-09-07, 11:07 AM
It would be difficult if the Ninja couldnt be found. But they can be found by the Jedi.

Esser-Z
2010-09-07, 11:18 AM
Unfortunately, the Force is not a mystical detection, in the D&D sense. A conscious Jedi would be able to sense them, I do believe.

Nick_mi
2010-09-07, 11:19 AM
How high would a Jedi's Spot Check be? even with the Force Precognition ( maybe a +2-4 circumstance bonus) a mid-level Ninja would own a mid-level Jedi if the Jedi couldn't see the poisoned daggers flying from the shadows

We're talking about a person who deflects LASERS being shot at them by multiple people.

Morph Bark
2010-09-07, 11:20 AM
This will little fun debate makes me wonder... who would win in a fight of Jedinja vs Space Pirate?

Zaydos
2010-09-07, 11:27 AM
Jedinja. They have the over the top destructive abilities of the Jedi (TK), the other powers that overlap (precog, bullet time), and then the stealth/maneuverability of a ninja.

Space pirates have... big ships with lasers.

FelixG
2010-09-07, 11:30 AM
Jedinja. They have the over the top destructive abilities of the Jedi (TK), the other powers that overlap (precog, bullet time), and then the stealth/maneuverability of a ninja.

Space pirates have... big ships with lasers.

and metroids :P

Zaydos
2010-09-07, 11:37 AM
and metroids :P

Which reminds me, space pirates have easily exploded bases.

Harris the Ford
2010-09-07, 12:13 PM
I would say that if ninja existed in the jedi multiverse they would find a way to be invisible to the force or disconnected from it (a la Vong) or use Atton Rand esque methods of non detection. If the ninja did exist then you can bet that his first priority would be to find a way to not be noticed.

Secondly a point that most have overlooked, were talking about a Jedi here, not just some force user. Jedi have a code, and that code can be exploited. A true jedi prolly would not resort to throwing star destroyers around for fear of the collateral damage. If the ninja had the choice of where to fight (which he should because he gets element og surprise) he could pick a heavily populated area which would limit a jedis combat choices immensely. Combined with hit and hide tactics I would throw the fight to a ninja.

On the same token, ninja vs sith master. If the ninja didn't kill him in the first round then everything within 200 feet of the sith master would be turned into deep fried crunchy morsels with a healthy dose of what I called in KOTOR 2 "force storm lol" or the "I win button"

IcarusWings
2010-09-07, 12:43 PM
The answer is neither win. They reach a deadlock with both having swords/lightsabers at each other throats.
Then a pirate appears, shoots his new experimental 42-barrelled flintlock at the ninja, and setting fire to his alchoholic breath and toasting the Jedi. At this point, both the Jedi and Ninja are still conscious (but barely) until the pirate takes them both out with a gum gum battleaxe.

Simples! [/meerkat voice]

MightyTim
2010-09-07, 12:53 PM
I think maybe we're looking at the question the wrong way.

A lot of people are comparing Jedi to warrior-monks, but I see them as more akin to a space samurai (You could draw a pretty direct comparison between Bushido and the Jedi Code). Given that Ninjas came about specifically to kill samurai, I think that if you peel away the obvious discrepancies and Force usage, a Jedi isn't necessarily coming out on top.

Knaight
2010-09-07, 01:15 PM
I think maybe we're looking at the question the wrong way.

A lot of people are comparing Jedi to warrior-monks, but I see them as more akin to a space samurai (You could draw a pretty direct comparison between Bushido and the Jedi Code). Given that Ninjas came about specifically to kill samurai, I think that if you peel away the obvious discrepancies and Force usage, a Jedi isn't necessarily coming out on top.

Well, came about specifically to kill nobility in general. Of course, this assumes the historical ninja, and the OP failed to specify ninja in enough detail to either eliminate the historical ninja as a contender, or pin it down as one. Same deal with the Jedi, though they are obviously all fictional.

Kylarra
2010-09-07, 01:18 PM
I think maybe we're looking at the question the wrong way.

A lot of people are comparing Jedi to warrior-monks, but I see them as more akin to a space samurai (You could draw a pretty direct comparison between Bushido and the Jedi Code). Given that Ninjas came about specifically to kill samurai, I think that if you peel away the obvious discrepancies and Force usage, a Jedi isn't necessarily coming out on top.On the other hand, removing force usage is like saying, "well yeah I can kill <powerful person> if they're blindfolded, tied up, have boxed ears, and are potentially drugged.

Ihouji
2010-09-07, 02:29 PM
I think it would likely end in a draw with both parties dead.

Ninja strikes first with some type of poison, Jedi reacts by simply crushing him to death with the force, then dies from the poison.

Most powerful ninja ever is represented by the ability to sneak attack a Jedi.

Most powerful Jedi ever could easily simply crush someone to death using nothing but the force(think the scene in the hall in Akira, or the decompression chamber in that one bond movie).

hamishspence
2010-09-07, 02:34 PM
Unless it's a rapid-acting venom- not necessarily lethal.

Ysalamiri (worm creatures that push back the force) are handy.

Also- even very powerful Jedi tend to be somewhat limited in crushing- it tends to be a throat crush, rather than a whole-body crush.

Zaydos
2010-09-07, 02:41 PM
All you need to do is crush the throat. Although ninja's are supposed to be able to go without breath for super-human amounts of time. Then again it is possible to shatter bones with it (it happened in one comic) so they could just break the neck. The problem is Jedi die when sneak attacked. They might be great warriors, but they get slaughtered when they encounter someone who sneak attacks them. And it is possible to use mystical powers to avoid detection (Palpatine does it). So hypothetical best ninja versus hypothetical best Jedi the Jedi lose because even at best their ability of precognition can be defeated (Yoda was the best precog and he failed) and once that's beaten they don't have much to defend against a swift stab. They might be able to put off death long enough to kill the ninja but that's a might.

Ihouji
2010-09-07, 02:56 PM
Also- even very powerful Jedi tend to be somewhat limited in crushing- it tends to be a throat crush, rather than a whole-body crush.

Yes but as the OP stated we aren't talking about just a powerful Jedi, we are talking about the most powerful Jedi ever. If you can pull a star destroyer out of the sky I think crushing someone to death would be somewhat trivial no?

Edit: Also when talking about the anti force lemur things did anyone else picture a ninja with a lemur on his back sword fighting a jedi? because I did and I loled vigorously.

Zaydos
2010-09-07, 03:05 PM
Actually if you look at the wording of the original post it is the most powerful Jedi against the most powerful ninja you could conceive. Which actually only specifies hypothetical with the ninja. This is of course just a pointless nit-pick but does bring up the next point.

Jedi's fluff gives them specific limits in what they can do and what they cannot. For example throwing ships around requires either some massive focusing device to magnify your powers or a group channeling their powers together and kills off one of them to do it (and they also happen to be at a massive temple built to focus your powers when they do it, and incorporate that into the technique).

Ninja's actually have a lot more varied amounts of powers. They are undetectable, in some things even by magical means, they can move like shadows, sometimes even teleporting through them, they can move in bullet time, they can summon creatures, use scry, have prescience, have spider-sense, can channel the raw elements, can fly, have telekinesis, all without an upper limit as none ever truly master all the arts (in fact the master always dies because he wasn't truly the master and the half-trained apprentice does the job and realizes there's far more to it than the master ever knew).

It's the problem with story, which has established parameters, and myth + stories, where the parameters change. Except for the flashy world shaking telekinesis that Jedi sometimes use (and even then usually when augmented) they don't have any abilities that haven't also been attributed to ninjas (yes even telekinesis is sometimes attributed to ninjas and dodging bullets which even in Star Wars move faster than blasters).

hamishspence
2010-09-07, 03:10 PM
Yes but as the OP stated we aren't talking about just a powerful Jedi, we are talking about the most powerful Jedi ever. If you can pull a star destroyer out of the sky I think crushing someone to death would be somewhat trivial no?

He didn't so much pull a star destroyer down, as guide an already crashing star desroyer into his intended target:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galen_Marek


On Raxus Prime, Starkiller fought his way through the local Imperial troops as well as a trap set by Drexl Roosh and reached an ore cannon that was being used to launch metallic refuse into space for use by the Imperial shipyard. Starkiller reprogrammed the cannon to fire directly at the shipyard instead, utterly obliterating the facility. Unfortunately for Starkiller, it also damaged a nearly completed Star Destroyer causing it to give in to the planet's gravity. As it careened out of orbit and closed in on Starkiller, Kota told him to use the Force to crash it into the ore cannon. Starkiller succeeded, incredibly surviving the crash and the ensuing destruction.

The only other really large scale telekinesis scene (hurling a fleet of star destroyers) requires an ancient artifact (the Great Temple of Yavin IV) multiple Jedi working at once, channelling their power through a single Jedi, and killed that Jedi in the process (Darksaber).

Ihouji
2010-09-07, 03:19 PM
You would still have to apply several thousand if not tens of thousands of pounds of force to redirect and object with that much mass.

More than enough to crush someone flat out.

Zaydos
2010-09-07, 03:22 PM
Except that the movies show that Jedi can't even crush droids right out. There are no moral reasons not to (droids don't deserve to live according to Jedi apparently), but instead a physical limitation.

hamishspence
2010-09-07, 03:24 PM
Crushing is one of the various telekinesis techniques:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Telekinesis#Choking_powers

but it seems to be more powerful Jedi that do it. Mace Windu, Darth Vader, Galen Marek.

Mark Hall
2010-09-07, 03:29 PM
The Mod Wonder: As amusing as this thread is, it's not (as currently set up) really an RPG topic. Feel free to start it again in Friendly Banter, or Media Discussions.