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randomhero00
2010-09-07, 04:30 PM
My trouble is that I try to make too-perfect characters and have trouble roleplaying their flaws (humanity). Even if I give them flaws I then often forget to roleplay them. Any tips? I'd really like to become good, but my roleplaying is missing that little something that can enthrall people and bring them into the story.

Knaight
2010-09-07, 04:42 PM
Start off with characters with major, obvious flaws. Highly emotional and irrational, arrogant to extremes, absurdly hot headed, etc. Then just let these get toned down over the course of a campaign, which gets you the practice needed for less overt flaws.

randomhero00
2010-09-07, 04:50 PM
Then the group would have no reason to travel with me though...

JonRG
2010-09-07, 04:59 PM
I remember in one of the Giant's gaming articles that he played a hotheaded samurai that would run into anything headfirst with no regard for whether he lived or died.

In order to keep the peace OoC, he let the party's paladin talk him down to more rational plans of action. The same sort of thing could work for you. :smallsmile:

KillianHawkeye
2010-09-07, 05:01 PM
In my early days I used to write down a list of major and minor personality traits for a character. Having it handy for you to look at helps so you don't forget to roleplay your quirks.

kyoryu
2010-09-07, 05:06 PM
Then the group would have no reason to travel with me though...

Yes. Because clearly most people do not have flaws, and individuals with any flaws are immediately shunned from society.

Seriously - think of any TV show. Do the characters have flaws? Most of the time, they're defined by their flaws.

truekender
2010-09-07, 05:06 PM
My trouble is that I try to make too-perfect characters and have trouble roleplaying their flaws (humanity). Even if I give them flaws I then often forget to roleplay them. Any tips? I'd really like to become good, but my roleplaying is missing that little something that can enthrall people and bring them into the story.

Take an MBTI instrument or enneagram "test" to find what type your character is and play by the strengths and flaws of that type. It's a really easy method that creates very real characters.

Zeofar
2010-09-07, 05:15 PM
Then the group would have no reason to travel with me though...
Be too-perfect gameplay wise then :smalltongue:.

Seriously though, Try for a simple flawed character: True neutral, doesn't intervene to help someone unless he might get in trouble for it, takes advantage of people if he thinks the gains warrants it, dislikes people on a whim.
Change motives for adventuring: Not for good, but for fame and glory; seek revenge not for a grave crime, but something petty; to gain control of people; try to prove yourself better than someone who is not only better than you, but a truly good person. Or you could be drawn to power in all forms, no matter how dark it is.
Or just do a rogue that steals something from everyone, regardless of their position of status, or how much it will hurt them. If they don't have anything good to steal, mock them for it.

The Player's Handbook two has some suggestion for less-than-perfect character traits.

Engine
2010-09-07, 05:17 PM
Then the group would have no reason to travel with me though...

Why should be like that?
Probably you have friends. Surely they have flaws. But you're their friend nonetheless. If the other players refuse to play with you because your character is just human (not the race, of course) you're in the wrong group, at least if you want to roleplay.

Knaight
2010-09-07, 05:32 PM
Considering that this came up from my example list, now would be a good time for me to weigh in. Those flaws are either based on friends of mine, or myself when I'm not at my best. Sure, they can be annoying at times, but its not as if most people are petty enough to end a friendship based on that little. Why should the other characters in the group be that way?

Kerrin
2010-09-07, 05:41 PM
Flaws don't have to be catastrophic either. They can be little things or quirks or harmless as well. Things that give the character flavor.

For example, a fighter who likes to brag and thinks he's seen it all because he's WAY overconfident and that gets him into trouble. When the party come across something or a topic comes up in conversation around the campfire, every once in a while have the character pipe up ... "This reminds me of..." or "Did I ever tell you about..." and make up some very brief and completely ridiculous story. The storytelling is just a way to exaggerate it.

Or, the fellow who drinks at the best establishments ('cause they have the best ale) but stays at the dirt cheap places (to save coins for drinking the good stuff) which could be a problem given the lowlifes that might frequent the poorer inns or the lowlifes who might target patrons of the better ones.

There are things from the very little like above up thru fatal flaws. The whole spectrum is available.

oxybe
2010-09-07, 06:23 PM
1) if you're going to make an "obviously flawed" character, make it so he can reel in the flaw if needed, if only for party cohesion.

the CN character who flies off the handle often is fine. the one who ends up killing all potential patrons on a possible slight is a liability.

one character of mine, Shump, was very short-sighted and took the most obvious path of least resistance. should one not exist, he would make it himself with extreme force. he embodied the worst in an adventurer... then again he was created to reflect the negative stereotype of an "armed, sociopathic hobo armed with a magical cannon". Shump was a horrible, horrible person and by the end of the game he reveled in demonic pacts, deals with liches, openly discussing committing evil acts and creating a cult in service to a demon lord... and he was also the only PC to make it from the first session to the last, and ended up being the guy that saved the world in the process (well, in truth he simply did the final blow to the thing threatening all existence, but semantics. in his mind, Shump saved the world).

why would a group of good/neutral PCs travel with this horrible, horrible, person? because for all his faults, he had the same end goals as them, though his motivation was different AND he was willing to put aside their personality differences for the sake of the goal. for all his faults, Shump could work as part of a team when needed & he was good at what he did. so the party kept him, warts and all.

2) few people i've met have glaringly obvious flaws on the first meeting. i find leaving a few blanks the PC's personality before the first session, IE: not making him fully defined, gives you a chance to better "grow" the PC's personality organically. give him 2-3 traits initially and run with them.

after RPing a few sessions you'll probably get a feel for those traits and new ones will probably emerge. not until a few sessions ago in our PF game (14 sessions so far) did i find out my PC was so dedicated to not ignoring/making light of his standards, since the issue never came up before.

note that this came up when most of the party wanted to do X (make a bargin with an imp and a bearded devil before it) while my PC thought that X ran in conflict with the goals the group had set for itself; the group wants to reform a country/state that's become corrupt due to deals made with devils. to my PC, making a deal with a devil flies in the face of trying to reform country since they (the party) are using the same methods that brought the country to the state it's currently in.

i never thought of this trait upon creating him, but it just happened. him & the party's rogue (and what really took me entirely by surprise was to have the guy who is, historically speaking, the group's resident munchkin take my side in what is an RP-fueled debate) continued onwards and explored while the party did X, then rejoined them later. so we know now that once he (my pc) sets a standard for himself he won't personally bend if possible so he can be a bit bullheaded, but will fume and let it drop if the party comes to a majority vote.

he won't like it but group cohesion comes first since they have a goal they are trying to achieve.

darkpuppy
2010-09-07, 06:25 PM
For example, a fighter who likes to brag and thinks he's seen it all because he's WAY overconfident and that gets him into trouble. When the party come across something or a topic comes up in conversation around the campfire, every once in a while have the character pipe up ... "This reminds me of..." or "Did I ever tell you about..." and make up some very brief and completely ridiculous story. The storytelling is just a way to exaggerate it.

True story: Once, I ran a character with that flaw. The DM ruled that my character had the natural ability of "Mass Sleep" as a direct result of this.

But seriously, there's a whole spectrum of flaws out there, just as has been pointed out. You want dislikable? go for the holier-than-thou paladin (guaranteed to annoy anyone), or a character with delusions of intelligence (always amusing)... the list is endless, just think of things that make them a little bit annoying from time to time, but still a good guy. If good is your thing. Personally, I prefer evil when I roleplay... hence why I mainly DM...

Knaight
2010-09-07, 06:25 PM
For example, a fighter who likes to brag and thinks he's seen it all because he's WAY overconfident and that gets him into trouble. When the party come across something or a topic comes up in conversation around the campfire, every once in a while have the character pipe up ... "This reminds me of..." or "Did I ever tell you about..." and make up some very brief and completely ridiculous story. The storytelling is just a way to exaggerate it.


This sort of stuff is really fun. For instance, a character who has picked up their common sense the hard way might have a bunch of stories where they get screwed over by something or other. Said stories usually come out as rationale for intelligent options. "We should make sure the ship is reputable. Last time I tried to get onto a ship by feigning nobility they found out I was illiterate and threw me into the ocean. I had to drop my coin purse so I could swim to shore. And my expensive nobles clothes." is more interesting than the cautious "we should look into transportation", and highlights naivete or stupidity as a flaw.

HenryHankovitch
2010-09-07, 06:47 PM
Try not to think of your flaws as a shtick--something you do when a certain situation comes up. "Oh, wait, we're getting paid, here's the part where I'm supposed to always demand more money, because I'm greedy."

Try to incorporate your flaws into your character beforehand. When has this come up before, and what happened? How does this affect your character's chosen career (i.e., killing things and taking their stuff)? Try to come up with a few scenarios in which this sort of thing has happened, and how your character would have responded. For instance, say your flaw is that you have a gambling problem. If you're a warrior from an impoverished family, maybe this means you've simply never learned how to accumulate wealth and you have a tendency to blow through your money as soon as you get it. But if you're an urbane and sophisticated mage, then perhaps you owe a large quantity of coin to some sort of crime figure, and had to skip town. Or maybe it's not about coin at all--your gambling has resulted in you having to make good on risky bets or pranks, which reflect a thrill-junkie mentality. Like, "it was either come up with five hundred coin or spend a night with the ogre's sister. Naturally, I didn't have the coin..."

Really, what you need to do is "rehearse" how your character's flaw works in common situations. Does he flirt with anything in a skirt, or is he continually hurling himself into impossible, platonic romances with unattainable women? Does he get into brawls because he has a hair-trigger temper and a sense of insecurity, or because he enjoys needling insecure people with hair-trigger tempers?

AslanCross
2010-09-07, 06:53 PM
Start with an archetype (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MasterCharacterHeroes). Choose one. This is a solid basis for any character as it provides you a foundation of motivations and flaws (hence, primary conflicts and struggles). Build up other details.

Knaight
2010-09-07, 08:54 PM
That said, TV tropes is almost certainly not the best place to look for archetypes.

valadil
2010-09-07, 11:06 PM
GMs who encourage flaws can be useful. One of my GURPS GMs regularly reminds people of their flaws. Every character in that group is flawed in some way, so nobody feels like they're being picked on.

Pick flaws that are fun to play. A phobia of dogs is a great way to get points, but not all that interesting to roleplay through. Being a callous bully can be fun to RP, but not for the other players in your group. Impulsive on the other hand is a great flaw. It means that whenever the game starts to drag you run off to wherever the action is.

I like the suggestion that you should keep a list of your flaws handy. Look at this list whenever you're unsure what to do in a game. If your character is busy, fine by busy. But if you get bored or aren't getting enough attention, let your flaws take over.

Tira-chan
2010-09-08, 12:16 AM
Seriously? In my opinion, flaws and vices are the most fun part of any character. In fact, sometimes I think I have a tendency to make characters that play more to their flaws than their positive traits. ("No, your character cannot have Greed AND Pride. Yes, I know they both fit, but you have to pick. No, you cannot have two vices instead of a vice and a virtue. Even if you don't think any of the virtues fit.")

If you have a hard time creating a flaw for a heroic character, try exaggerating usually positive traits. What about the paladin that's so honorable, he expects everyone to live up to his standards, and is easily taken advantage of? Or a wizard who values knowledge above gold - to the point where he just can't help peeking at what's under the cover of the Necrotelicomnicom instead of safely destroying it? Or think of some of your favorite characters from fantasy novels. Usually, if they're good books, the characters will have plenty of flaws.

Kylarra
2010-09-08, 02:18 AM
There's always the easy trick from WoD, pick a virtue and pick a vice that your character is most influenced by.

Killer Angel
2010-09-08, 03:47 AM
My trouble is that I try to make too-perfect characters and have trouble roleplaying their flaws (humanity). Even if I give them flaws I then often forget to roleplay them. Any tips? I'd really like to become good, but my roleplaying is missing that little something that can enthrall people and bring them into the story.

My two cents.
Take a look at GURPS; it's a system based on points creation, and you can have additional points choosing some flaws and quirks. The list of flaws, can help you to keep something interesting and easy to remember and roleplay.

Then, you can try to speak with your DM, suggesting to have some advantage, if you choose some flaw that can lower your effectiveness.
BTW: losing the ability to rhyme on purpose (http://www.goblinscomic.com/03232010/), shouldn't be worth a feat... :smallwink:

AslanCross
2010-09-08, 04:14 AM
That said, TV tropes is almost certainly not the best place to look for archetypes.

That article is based on Victoria Schmidt's book 45 Master Characters, so it's not really the archetypes that TVTropes uses ("Tykebomb," "The Chick," etc.). It's actually helpful and is based on the archetypes used in mythology.

That said, the article itself doesn't explain them fully.

Fallbot
2010-09-08, 04:18 AM
flaws and vices are the most fun part of any character. In fact, sometimes I think I have a tendency to make characters that play more to their flaws than their positive traits.

So much this. I sometimes have to struggle to give my characters redeeming qualities. They're something for your character to overcome (or be destroyed by), and I think they tie in nicely with the whole 'hero's journey' feel of the game.

An easy way to come up with flaws is to simply take your character's good points to the logical extremes. Honest characters can be gullible, modest characters can be too self-effacing, brave characters can be reckless. It's a simplistic and perhaps not very realistic way of doing it, but if you're having trouble it might be a good starting point.

Knaight
2010-09-08, 07:58 AM
Then, you can try to speak with your DM, suggesting to have some advantage, if you choose some flaw that can lower your effectiveness.
BTW: losing the ability to rhyme on purpose (http://www.goblinscomic.com/03232010/), shouldn't be worth a feat... :smallwink:

That said, there are some good speech related flaws. Can Only Speak In Proverbs turned out incredibly fun when a player of mine took it and declared it part of his monastic order.*

*Particularly when everyone came to one of their temples.

TricksyAndFalse
2010-09-08, 08:42 AM
Pick a flaw that's fun to play, then you won't forget. One of my current characters in naive, trusting and guileless. I know better than to trust certain NPCs, and I know how to lie, but it makes for a lot of fun at the table when I make "mistakes" for the other players' and the GM's amusement.

When it would be really, really bad for my character to act out his flaw, I telegraph that he's about to do something stupid so the other players can have fun clamping his mouth, stomping his toe, etc.

prufock
2010-09-08, 11:39 AM
Considering that this came up from my example list, now would be a good time for me to weigh in. Those flaws are either based on friends of mine, or myself when I'm not at my best. Sure, they can be annoying at times, but its not as if most people are petty enough to end a friendship based on that little. Why should the other characters in the group be that way?

You have friends who are arrogant to the extreme, irrational, and hotheaded? You must be very patient.

When he says that the party has no reason to adventure with him if his flaws are so extreme, he isn't being unrealistic. If a character is irrational and hotheaded, he is often a liability, particularly in social situations.

Dirty n Evil
2010-09-08, 04:03 PM
Random, since it seems like the biggest problem is to remind yourself of specifically playing a character's flaw... then make it something that's fun for you to include. Because when it's fun, you don't have to actively think about it.

My pal Zeus has a character named Drake, and Drake is a consumate hound dog. The guy can't met a female NPC that's of above average charisma without hitting on her. It's a compulsion of the character, but a funny one that makes the other players laugh. He'll even flirt in the midst of battle - and not even flirt well. "We need some way to distract these Ogres... (insert female character's name here), quick, pull up your shirt and flash them!" Yes, Drake has been attacked by his own party members before in warning. But as PC's, we all laugh at it all the same.

Think of a cliche flaw that would be fun to play - steal the idea for Drake above, it's hardly original. But once you train yourself to remember a flaw consistantly, you'll learn to maintain it better. And once you have fun with it once, you'll be more likely to try it again... and this time, maybe with something a little more subtle than not being able to help one's self from hitting on the queen who invited the characters for a chance to adventure. :smallbiggrin:

Shademan
2010-09-08, 04:22 PM
Random, since it seems like the biggest problem is to remind yourself of specifically playing a character's flaw... then make it something that's fun for you to include. Because when it's fun, you don't have to actively think about it.

My pal Zeus has a character named Drake, and Drake is a consumate hound dog. The guy can't met a female NPC that's of above average charisma without hitting on her. It's a compulsion of the character, but a funny one that makes the other players laugh. He'll even flirt in the midst of battle - and not even flirt well. "We need some way to distract these Ogres... (insert female character's name here), quick, pull up your shirt and flash them!" Yes, Drake has been attacked by his own party members before in warning. But as PC's, we all laugh at it all the same.

Think of a cliche flaw that would be fun to play - steal the idea for Drake above, it's hardly original. But once you train yourself to remember a flaw consistantly, you'll learn to maintain it better. And once you have fun with it once, you'll be more likely to try it again... and this time, maybe with something a little more subtle than not being able to help one's self from hitting on the queen who invited the characters for a chance to adventure. :smallbiggrin:
sounds like me IRL.
yes I tend to be attacked by my party members alot.

TheThan
2010-09-08, 04:28 PM
sounds like its time to play a hot blooded anime character (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HotBlooded)

Knaight
2010-09-08, 07:01 PM
You have friends who are arrogant to the extreme, irrational, and hotheaded? You must be very patient.

If this is how they were all the time, then I would have to be very patient, as something that simply shows up from time to time, its an irritation. And the arrogance would be myself, typically showing up once I'm short on patience.