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View Full Version : Mindrape. Powerful yes, but can it do this?



Parra
2010-09-09, 11:32 AM
Ok, so as a DM Im using the mindrape spell to alter the perceptions of the PC's. After discussing it with a friend he disagree's with the degree to which I am using the Mindrape spell to achieve the result I am, so I came here to get a second opinion.

Basically it operates under the following premise:

Mindrape allows you to erase or add any memories of the target.
Memories are a record of your perceptions.
If you alter the record, you alter the perception.


To use that in an example:
Your Eyes see a creature, it sends the information to memory part of your brain to see if it knows what it is. Your Memory tells you that a creature matching what you see is known as a Dog. Your memory also prepares any other useful information it has about Dogs (should the need arise), your memory tells him that dogs are dangerous. So you act accordingly. The guy standing next to you sees a Dog.

Evil Wizard comes along and mindrapes the individual. As part of his nefarious scheme he alters part of your memories.
So the encounter just outlined goes thusly:
Your Eyes see a creature, it sends the information to memory part of your brain to see if it knows what it is. Your Memory tells you that a creature matching what you see is known as a Cat. Your memory also prepares any other useful information it has about Cats (should the need arise), your memory tells him that Cats are safe and playful. So you act accordingly. The guy standing next to you sees a Dog.

Seem reasonable so far?

To add to the complication using a specfic incident in the game:
The group have been dealing with this individual for some time. During the opening encounter he mindrapes the entire group and alters there memories about various things.
One of the things he altered is how they percieve him in his true form (he polymorphs alot). After a few encounters the group get suspicious about this individual and what to know who they are really dealing with. To that end they purchase a scroll of True Seeing, a member of the group casts it and walks into the room to see what he really looks like. Instead of seeing his True form, they see the pre-altered memory of him and he registers as something odd, but safe.

Now the issue has arisen whereby one member of the group has an item of Mindblank. He thinks that this should protect him from the effects of the Mindrape.
I agree with him that it will protect against further mindrapes, but it does nothing to stop ones that happened prior to the mindblanking. Hence any altered memories/perceptions will remain altered. i.e. he will contine to see the Baddie as the memory altered version, not what he really is.

I realise that this interpretation does push the limit of what mindrape can do, but can Mindrape do this by RAW, by RAI?

Tiki Snakes
2010-09-09, 11:36 AM
I'm not sure that you can use mindrape to set up future illusions, as it were.

You can change their memories of who he is, of how he looked, but it doesn't affect what they see afterwards?

They might then look at him, and remember what they see as being 'A Cat, cat's are safe'. But if they described it to someone then they would describe the creepy old wizard just fine.

Jack Zander
2010-09-09, 11:37 AM
I realise that this interpretation does push the limit of what mindrape can do, but can Mindrape do this by RAW, by RAI?

No, mindrape can't do any of that by RAW. At best, you've altered the person's memory of seeing a dog, and when the extent of that memory change ends, the cat turns into a dog. The person just remembers the creature being a cat before, weird...

True seeing should have shown the party his true form. They just might find it weird that his true form is different now. It shouldn't keep affecting them like that.

AmberVael
2010-09-09, 11:38 AM
Now the issue has arisen whereby one member of the group has an item of Mindblank. He thinks that this should protect him from the effects of the Mindrape.
I agree with him that it will protect against further mindrapes, but it does nothing to stop ones that happened prior to the mindblanking. Hence any altered memories/perceptions will remain altered. i.e. he will contine to see the Baddie as the memory altered version, not what he really is.

I realise that this interpretation does push the limit of what mindrape can do, but can Mindrape do this by RAW, by RAI?

My mind keeps blanking out (har har) on the first part of the discussion, but I definitely can speak about this part.

Mind Blank prevents mind affecting spells from affecting you. There is no clause that it does not prevent ongoing spells. The question, then, is if Mindrape is an ongoing spell, or if it is an ongoing effect caused by a spell.

The answer is simple- no, Mindrape isn't an ongoing spell. The duration is instantaneous, and thus, once the spell is cast, all effects it has caused are mundane and non-magical in nature, inherent to you, not a device or spell. Mind Blank cannot protect you from the effects of a previous Mindrape, though, as you mentioned, it can protect you from a Mindrape cast on you while the Mind Blank is up.

Kylarra
2010-09-09, 11:43 AM
They'd definitely be able to describe him. They might think at first that the figure they see is not on their "shoot on sight" list, but it's not like you don't update your memories constantly, so while they may think he's safe initially, the fact that he's done blahblahblah already and been revealed to be the true culprit will definitely swing them towards being suspicious.

Think of it like those detective mysteries where the culprit turns out to be Kindly Old <name> or whatever, sure you didn't suspect him at first, so when he turns up in suspicious areas, you're willing to grant a bit more leeway in terms of excuses, but as evidence accumulates, you become more willing to believe that he is guilty.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-09, 11:46 AM
Memories are a record of past perceptions. You can't mind rape the person into emulating illusions. He will see whatever he would normally see before the spell.


You can rape out their memory of the big bad? Sure. When they see the big bad, they see whatever the big bad is. They just won't recognize him.

Parra
2010-09-09, 01:23 PM
I get that it only alters existing memories, but this works under the premise that how you interpret your perceptions based on previous experiance (i.e. your memories)

If the previous example was bad think of it this way then. Mental conditioning found in a variety of film and TV (Bourne Identity,ST:TNG, BSG & pleathora of other spy films). The sleeper agent is tourtured/conditioned/brainwashed/fancy-scienced(/mindraped?) so that when certain conditions are met they perform a certain action, maybe years after they were brainwshed. In some cases they have no recollection of what they did even right after just doing it.

Can Mindrape potentially perform similar mental conditioning?
Hence giving you; Condition -> See a Cat -> Response -> Act like you saw a dog.

edit:

They might think at first that the figure they see is not on their "shoot on sight" list, but it's not like you don't update your memories constantly,
I agree. Which is why after some encounters, when he knows his cover has been blown, he doses them again with more mindraping.

Kylarra
2010-09-09, 01:27 PM
Conditioned triggers do not seem to fall under the purview of the mindrape spell.

Parra
2010-09-09, 01:28 PM
Conditioned triggers do not seem to fall under the purview of the mindrape spell.

yes but would they fall under the area of altered memories. i.e. your memory has been altered as if you had spent 10 years in a brainwashing program

Kylarra
2010-09-09, 01:29 PM
yes but would they fall under the area of altered memories. i.e. your memory has been altered as if you had spent 10 years in a brainwashing programAs a level 9 spell, potentially, assuming that the caster had intimate knowledge of that sort of thing. However, if my DM did that to my character randomly, I would walk.

JeenLeen
2010-09-09, 01:34 PM
Mindrape cannot make you perceive the creature differently than you do, but it would work to alter all memories about his prior true form. If I was always told that a TV is called a scrying mirror, then if I saw a TV and tried to describe it, I would call it a scrying mirror. Folk would be confused, but in a prolonged discussion they would realize I mean TV.

As for the conditioning, that could work. I just reread Mindrape, and I can two rulings. You could certainty add years of memories of them being conditioned, which I imagine would be the same as having the conditioning and cause them to enter into a set of rote actions upon seeing the true form.

I think I did read some spell that sets up post-hypnotic suggestions (Modify Memory; the psionic version thereof?). Does anyone remember that? Perhaps if they implant a suggestion, then Mindrape away memory of the spell being cast? Mindrape could also add a belief that acting out rote like that is normal, so that the affected does not suspect he is being manipulated.

Parra
2010-09-09, 01:39 PM
As a level 9 spell, potentially, assuming that the caster had intimate knowledge of that sort of thing. However, if my DM did that to my character randomly, I would walk.

So doable, if pushing the bounderies a little?

As an aside, it isnt being done randomly but as part of an overarching plot. , learning plenty along the way.
The mindraping in this case has only been used as an extra layer of defence in keeping his identity hidden (beyond the usual mundane disguise, simulicrums, projected images, polymorphs etc)
The group are already suspcious of the guy and are approaching a point where they can potentially learn they have been screwed with and work towards fixing what he did to them

Tyger
2010-09-09, 01:42 PM
yes but would they fall under the area of altered memories. i.e. your memory has been altered as if you had spent 10 years in a brainwashing program

The short answer to your question is no, there is no RAW or RAI (as I understand it) means to use Mindrape to implant the sort of conditional triggers you have described herein.

Now, that's not to say you couldn't arrange an action that is similar. The loyal bodyguard of the king comes under your influence and you Mindrape them to remember that the king, years ago, horribly tortured and then murdered the guard's family in front of him. He has held off on his revenge because a spell held him from seeking his vengeance, but that spell has just been lifted. He knows that it is important to not let the king know the spell has just failed.... you see where this is going?

But no, you can not change someone's current physical perceptions. You can't have someone think they are seeing one thing when they are seeing another. When that True Seeing spell goes off, they will see your BBEG looking just as he really does. What they remember about what they saw before is the ripe fodder of Mindrape, not what they are seeing now.


So doable, if pushing the bounderies a little?

If by "a little" you mean "interjecting something that appears no where in the description of the spell" then yes. Otherwise, no. If my DM tried to use this on our party without the full cooperation of the party beforehand, I'd be upset... its DM fiat, plain and simple.

Parra
2010-09-09, 01:52 PM
Mindrape cannot make you perceive the creature differently than you do, but it would work to alter all memories about his prior true form. If I was always told that a TV is called a scrying mirror, then if I saw a TV and tried to describe it, I would call it a scrying mirror. Folk would be confused, but in a prolonged discussion they would realize I mean TV.


However, if the only people you ever discuss TV with also called it a scrying mirror, there would be no confusion.

in this case they onyl ever talk about the guy amoungst themselves, they guy is polymporphed to begin with. Only with True Seeing did they see what he looked like, Mindrape Brainwashing told them to blank it out

Tyger
2010-09-09, 01:57 PM
in this case they onyl ever talk about the guy amoungst themselves, they guy is polymporphed to begin with. Only with True Seeing did they see what he looked like, Mindrape Brainwashing told them to blank it out

Except the spell doesn't allow this. If it did, it would say so. You can

"Erase or add memories", "alter emotions, opinions and even alignment"... no where in there does it say that you can change what they are going to see after the spell goes off. You can make them all feel good about what they see, even regard what they see as their long lost brother/sister/demonic lover/abberant master/whatever, but they are still going to see it for what it is.

Parra
2010-09-09, 02:01 PM
Now, that's not to say you couldn't arrange an action that is similar. The loyal bodyguard of the king comes under your influence and you Mindrape them to remember that the king, years ago, horribly tortured and then murdered the guard's family in front of him. He has held off on his revenge because a spell held him from seeking his vengeance, but that spell has just been lifted. He knows that it is important to not let the king know the spell has just failed.... you see where this is going?

I do and I like it.

yes ultimatly, if it has to this comes down to DM fiat, I would however much much prefer to use something within the rules

Kylarra
2010-09-09, 02:02 PM
Bar plot-armor, I'm not seeing why a wizard would use X 9th level castings in order to provide yet another layer of defense for his true form from <adventuring party>, since if he had them in a situation where he could reliably do this, he should've just killed them all.

Parra
2010-09-09, 02:05 PM
Except the spell doesn't allow this. If it did, it would say so. You can

"Erase or add memories", "alter emotions, opinions and even alignment"... no where in there does it say that you can change what they are going to see after the spell goes off. You can make them all feel good about what they see, even regard what they see as their long lost brother/sister/demonic lover/abberant master/whatever, but they are still going to see it for what it is.

to add what I said in an earlier post, mindraping is topped up periodically

Parra
2010-09-09, 02:06 PM
Bar plot-armor, I'm not seeing why a wizard would use X 9th level castings in order to provide yet another layer of defense for his true form from <adventuring party>, since if he had them in a situation where he could reliably do this, he should've just killed them all.

unless he wants them alive for something?

Kylarra
2010-09-09, 02:06 PM
to add what I said in an earlier post, mindraping is topped up periodically...

well then to add to my previous post, this seems like an even more absurd use of fiat.


unless he wants them alive for something?
Like I said, plot armor, and there are more reliable ways of getting people to do things for you than continually blowing 9th level spells.

Parra
2010-09-09, 02:09 PM
such as?

given that they have yet to actually work it all out, its still prefectly changeable

Kylarra
2010-09-09, 02:11 PM
such as?

given that they have yet to actually work it all out, its still prefectly changeablePaying them is a pretty good one. Also Geas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasquest.htm).

Parra
2010-09-09, 02:15 PM
Paying them is a pretty good one. Also Geas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasquest.htm).

They were paid. alot.
Geas does weak damage and is easily removed

This is not an attempt to control there actions, the money does that, this is simply to stop them learning who he is.

FMArthur
2010-09-09, 02:24 PM
Hey... can Mindrape give people experience? Make a 1st level Wizard's mind into that of a 20th level Wizard? Knowledge and experiences is all that really separates the two, which seems to be within Mindrape's scope.

Goodlad
2010-09-09, 02:25 PM
Hey... can Mindrape give people experience? Make a 1st level Wizard's mind into that of a 20th level Wizard? Knowledge and experiences is all that really separates the two, which seems to be within Mindrape's scope.

I love you! lol

Dm plays with mindrape, players should get to aswell.
Im a player in parra's game btw.

Parra
2010-09-09, 02:39 PM
Hey... can Mindrape give people experience? Make a 1st level Wizard's mind into that of a 20th level Wizard? Knowledge and experiences is all that really separates the two, which seems to be within Mindrape's scope.

What is experiance (not the dnd version aka xp)?

It's the culmination of all the knowledge you have so far gathered in your life, also known as memories.

If you alter those memories, you alter the knowledge, you alter the knowledge then you alter the experiance

Can mindrape remove from a wizard the memory of learning to cast Fireball?

Can it implant the memory of the knowledge to cast Lightning Bolt?

Im not even going to pretend that Mindrape is anything but a mine field of problems if used and abused to that extent. But like Pun-Pun, you just dont use it like that

jseah
2010-09-09, 02:39 PM
The way I see it, OP's argument is that Mindrape can give you false preconceived notions about things.

Like the example of a cat. We do things to cats as we remember them and how they act.

The caster could set it up such that the subjects of mindrape think of him (and specifically him) as someone to be trusted from prior experience. Or as someone unrelated and harmless.
It is arguable as to whether it could deflect suspicion from a true seeing investigation. After all, no matter how harmless/unrelated you seem to them, anyone near a place of suspicion is instantly suspected.

Technically, Mindrape could alter their personality to prevent that from happening. Hence the accusations of implanting suggestions. It's not an implanted suggestion if their personalities stop being logical. Or essentially become robots following some kind of flexible algorithm to not act like robots. (esp. since humans deal with concepts and objects easily)


That said, it's very high on the mind screw index and it is unclear as to what the inherent limits of human psychology is. How far can you reprogram someone with mindrape before you run into various blocks in people? 2+2=5? Maybe not even that...
After all, people have self-consistency tests, we continually sanity check our observations/thinking/logic. Can you remove that? Is that something fundamental to [humanoid] type or is that "personality"?

Tyndmyr
2010-09-09, 02:40 PM
to add what I said in an earlier post, mindraping is topped up periodically

This is probably the most ludicrous use for level 9 spells ever. Yes, more ludicrous than Genesis'd planes with the fast flowing time trait.

jseah
2010-09-09, 02:46 PM
Addition:
More than "continually" I would think.

I do it almost instinctively, and many a movie has been ruined by the little voice in my head that keeps saying "X is illogical".

I find it hard to believe that something like that could be reprogrammed. Would be akin to removing the alignment system from a person (not actual TN, but having zero conception of morality)

Zaydos
2010-09-09, 02:47 PM
You could probably replace all of someones memories of cats with dogs... okay small dogs. So they'd think a dog was called a cat and acted like a cat. They'd still see a dog. If they described how it appeared to somebody else they'd describe a dog. Now they might call it a cat and treat it like one, but they wouldn't perceive a cat, they'd just be relying on false information.

So if they used true seeing on the BBEG and he looked like... say a walrus man. They'd see a walrus man and be able to describe a walrus man. Now he could have mind raped them into remembering that walrus men are dragons look like, but they'd still see a walrus man. He could not use mindrape to preemptively make it so that if they used True Seeing on him they'd see a dragon. They'd see a walrus man they just might call it a dragon, and think it could breathe fire.

Toliudar
2010-09-09, 02:56 PM
We are affected by our memories, but are not slaves to them. Just because you remember a dragon eating your mommy does not mean you are compelled to attack the dragon. Remembering ten years of conditioning (or, worse yet, planting un-memories of ten years of conditioning, since you don't actually want them to remember the conditioning) seems like really weird railroading.

Dress it up as you wish, Parra, but the mind control part of the mindrape you're describing comes down to "You feel an inescapable compulsion to do what I want you to do," which is taking away the one aspect of reality that the players have control over.

Parra
2010-09-09, 02:59 PM
This is probably the most ludicrous use for level 9 spells ever. Yes, more ludicrous than Genesis'd planes with the fast flowing time trait.

if you are a wizard, and paranoid, and your plan revolves around them not knowing who you are and you have the resources to do. Why wouldn't you?

Jseah, has hit what I have been trying to get at quite aptly

Tyndmyr
2010-09-09, 03:05 PM
or, worse yet, planting un-memories of ten years of conditioning, since you don't actually want them to remember the conditioning

This is the part that's really crazy. I mean, mindrape lets you plant memories. Not "wierd crap you can't remember".

Aright, it's instant. Whatever is done is done when the spell finishes casting. Bam. At that point, you describe the modifications to their memories. What they do after that point, with the modified character knowledge, is on them. They perceive things normally, as mindrape does not modify future perceptions. Misinformation as memories is possible, obviously.

And repeated mindrapings by the same guy is just silly. There are far easier ways to acheive pretty much any goal.



if you are a wizard, and paranoid, and your plan revolves around them not knowing who you are and you have the resources to do. Why wouldn't you?

Jseah, has hit what I have been trying to get at quite aptly

Because if I have to mindrape ANYONE repeatedly, I'm screwing something up terribly. People that are persistant threats should just be killed outright. Or deflected subtly once, then never contacted again.

Parra
2010-09-09, 03:06 PM
We are affected by our memories, but are not slaves to them. Just because you remember a dragon eating your mommy does not mean you are compelled to attack the dragon. Remembering ten years of conditioning (or, worse yet, planting un-memories of ten years of conditioning, since you don't actually want them to remember the conditioning) seems like really weird railroading.

Dress it up as you wish, Parra, but the mind control part of the mindrape you're describing comes down to "You feel an inescapable compulsion to do what I want you to do," which is taking away the one aspect of reality that the players have control over.

I havent forced them to do anything, unless offering them retardly large sums of money to do various things is railroading.

The mindrape-brainwash is only to stop them, in the short term, from learning who he is. Its not meant to be a fool proof railroad set-up, they are meant to over come it eventually. There a holes in the brainwash and its meant to be like that.

MammonAzrael
2010-09-09, 03:06 PM
No. No it can't do that.

Your player will continue to see the baddie in his Mind Raped-form in his memories, but that won't change what he is seeing now. And it doesn't matter what name their mind associates with what they see in front of them; when asked to describe it they will describe what the villain actually looks like.

Implanting brainwashed behavior could be a possibility, but frankly the level of expertise and knowledge to do that would be immense, and is certainly pushing the bounds of the spell.

If your players are somehow under True Seeing, then they'll see what the villain truly looks like. This can still be very strange if the memories he gave them of his true form were different (say in their memories they think his true form is that of a cat. Seeing him now would reveal his actual body, which would conflict with their memories and be very confusing. Up to you at that point how to handle it. They could simply believe he researched a spell to fool True Seeing.)

You're right about Mind Blank so far as that he will be immune to any further Mind Raping, but the ones in the past remain. And he believes those memories true and correct.



In a larger outlook, a lot of this does sound like plot armor. If your villain can and does Mindrape the party, it would certainly take plot armor for him to not simply rewrite their personalities to being his allies. Hell, if he needs them to remain their current alignment then he can just make them think that his plan is necessary for the greater good, and anyone who says otherwise is lying and any evidence they have must be fabricated.

Parra
2010-09-09, 03:09 PM
And repeated mindrapings by the same guy is just silly. There are far easier ways to acheive pretty much any goal.

If the goal is for your true identity to remain hidden and you know they have the capacity to see through illusions and shapechanges, what is the far easier way?

Like I said they havent yet worked this out yet. If there is an alternative or easier way, what is it.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-09, 03:12 PM
If the goal is for your true identity to remain hidden and you know they have the capacity to see through illusions and shapechanges, what is the far easier way?

Like I said they havent yet worked this out yet. If there is an alternative or easier way, what is it.

Mindrape them into being my willing, loyal servants with entirely new personalities of my choosing. Game over, I win.

Or, I kill them. Also a win. If I can mindrape the entire party with impunity, then I can certainly do this.

Either of those requires far less risk than setting up daily mindrapes or whatever.

Parra
2010-09-09, 03:12 PM
In a larger outlook, a lot of this does sound like plot armor. If your villain can and does Mindrape the party, it would certainly take plot armor for him to not simply rewrite their personalities to being his allies.

It is to a degree Plot Armor, i'll admit that. However I dont like the idea of plot armour any more than you do (guessing you dont like it). If I can find a way within the rules to achieve the same effect I'll take it, Mindrape-brainwashing (even if it is pushing it a bit) is the only one I have found so far that fits my needs.

Zaydos
2010-09-09, 03:12 PM
If the goal is for your true identity to remain hidden and you know they have the capacity to see through illusions and shapechanges, what is the far easier way?

Like I said they havent yet worked this out yet. If there is an alternative or easier way, what is it.

Obscuring Mist, Fog Cloud. True Seeing doesn't penetrate summoned fog banks. Get one of those.

Parra
2010-09-09, 03:14 PM
Mindrape them into being my willing, loyal servants with entirely new personalities of my choosing. Game over, I win.

Or, I kill them. Also a win. If I can mindrape the entire party with impunity, then I can certainly do this.

Either of those requires far less risk than setting up daily mindrapes or whatever.

this isnt done for the same reason we dont all play as Pun-Pun.


Obscuring Mist, Fog Cloud. True Seeing doesn't penetrate summoned fog banks. Get one of those.

and when he is trying to employ them?

Tyndmyr
2010-09-09, 03:15 PM
Or, he could not contact them directly. Or keep a physical object in the way.

Mindrape is not a replacement for a curtain.

MammonAzrael
2010-09-09, 03:15 PM
If the goal is for your true identity to remain hidden and you know they have the capacity to see through illusions and shapechanges, what is the far easier way?

Like I said they havent yet worked this out yet. If there is an alternative or easier way, what is it.


Kill them. Trap/destroy their souls to ensure they don't get resurrected.
Mind Rape them into your allies. Your fanatically devoted allies that won't accept any proof that you aren't their one, true god.
Wear a physical disguise. Magic ain't gettin' through that. If True Seeing saw through physical disguises then it would also see through clothing and anything else obscuring the person's physical form.
If you need them to be alive for something, Mind Rape them into believing that is the singular, ultimate goal in life, and crazy enough to believe that and only that.


But I'm still of the opinion that any wizard powerful enough to Mind Rape a group is powerful enough to either not worry about them or is better off just killing them.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-09, 03:17 PM
this isnt done for the same reason we dont all play as Pun-Pun.

No, no...replacing the personality is explicitly called out in the spell description. It's nothing like pun pun. It's "Using the spell for it's intended purpose".

Killing the PCs is also not anything like pun-pun. It's a perfectly logical goal for a BBEG to have.

jseah
2010-09-09, 03:17 PM
Parra:
You underestimate Mindrape.

It's not a matter of some kind of cheese or weird readings of Mindrape.

As written and practically as intended, Mindrape is for doing that very thing Tyndmyr has suggested. You succeed at Mindraping someone, bam, they're your plaything.


That said, if you need a reason as to why the players still have their free will, you could make all their actions up till now be part of a giant Xanathos roulette the big bad has been playing against someone else.

Like say a bunch of good people discreetly check on them (need a reason for this) for whatever reason so he has to be subtle. Then his mindrape has just nudged them down paths of his choosing. (which are retconned to be the ones they picked)

Parra
2010-09-09, 03:18 PM
Kill them. Trap/destroy their souls to ensure they don't get resurrected.

Mind Rape them into your allies. Your fanatically devoted allies that won't accept any proof that you aren't their one, true god.

If you need them to be alive for something, Mind Rape them into believing that is the singular, ultimate goal in life, and crazy enough to believe that and only that.

all of that loosely translates in "rocks fall..."


But I'm still of the opinion that any wizard powerful enough to Mind Rape a group is powerful enough to either not worry about them or is better off just killing them.
A sane one, yes. But like any story villian he is flawed and has a 'plan' of which the group, remaining free-willed, is a part of.

The Rabbler
2010-09-09, 03:21 PM
No, no...replacing the personality is explicitly called out in the spell description. It's nothing like pun pun. It's "Using the spell for it's intended purpose".

Killing the PCs is also not anything like pun-pun. It's a perfectly logical goal for a BBEG to have.

I think he means that it would end all possible fun for that campaign.

Douglas
2010-09-09, 03:22 PM
Mindrape cannot alter future perceptions, but it can change the knowledge that would be associated with those perceptions. For example, the following is a valid scenario:

1) Character encounters a Lemure, laughs at the pathetic weakling of a devil, and kills it.
2) Character gets Mindraped.
3) Character encounters another Lemure, says "oh ****, it's a Pit Fiend," and runs away at top speed hoping that this legendary font of limitless Blasphemies didn't notice him. The character still sees a Lemure accurately as it really is, but he "knows" that the kind of creature matching that appearance is incredibly powerful and dangerous.

For the specific scenario from the OP, Mindrape will not under any circumstances affect what the True Seeing spell reveals. That is beyond Mindrape's capabilities. What it can do is change how the characters would interpret the information.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-09, 03:22 PM
all of that loosely translates in "rocks fall..."

The problem is not that rocks fall. The problem is that you, as a DM, put the party in a position where they can do nothing to prevent the rocks falling.

And that's exactly what you're trying to do. There's no player choice involved here, just a "for some reason, true seeing doesn't work right on him". It doesn't make any sense logically, it doesn't match the way the spell works, and it won't make for good gameplay.


A sane one, yes. But like any story villian he is flawed and has a 'plan' of which the group, remaining free-willed, is a part of.

So, he's ridiculously powerful, and also remarkably stupid. I suggest you read better stories. Also, please check out this (http://www.eviloverlord.com/).

Parra
2010-09-09, 03:26 PM
That said, if you need a reason as to why the players still have their free will, you could make all their actions up till now be part of a giant Xanathos roulette the big bad has been playing against someone else.

Its this very thing I am trying to maintain, otherwise I may as well go back to playing make believe with toys like when I was a kid.

I do have a reason why their free will is important, and why he has been employing the group in the first place but also why the baddie wants to keep his identity hidden. Yes he is that powerful and that paranoid.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-09, 03:29 PM
I think he means that it would end all possible fun for that campaign.

And being continually mindraped won't?

FMArthur
2010-09-09, 03:29 PM
Yeah, this use of Mindrape you're trying to get is like using Wish in-game to smack a player at the table. It doesn't work that way, is going to be recieved about the same, and makes your NPC look stupid for using his world-changing powers to implement a plan that has a smaller chance of being successful than... using his world-changing powers.

Douglas
2010-09-09, 03:33 PM
The big question here is why does the villain's physical appearance matter? What about it is so important to keep secret? If he doesn't want them recognizing him by sight, there's nothing preemptive Mindrape can do about that. If he doesn't want them identifying his race/template/tattooed holy symbol/etc., then Mindrape could give a false association for whatever it is and lead to misidentification on the spot, but if the PCs go researching and describe what they saw they'll still get accurate information.

Parra
2010-09-09, 03:34 PM
The problem is not that rocks fall. The problem is that you, as a DM, put the party in a position where they can do nothing to prevent the rocks falling.

Not so. Just that at level 8, they cant stop a level 20 wizard screwing with, but not killing, them. They dont even know who it is yet, thats the point. But they are learning, as the storey progress and will eventually deal with it.



And that's exactly what you're trying to do. There's no player choice involved here, just a "for some reason, true seeing doesn't work right on him". It doesn't make any sense logically, it doesn't match the way the spell works, and it won't make for good gameplay.

If thats what had happened, that would be true. It was closer to "you cast true seeing and you see X, your mindraped brain tells you that you see Y"


I suggest you read better stories.

and I suggest you dont read a 1 page from the middle of a long book and decide the entire thing is terrible.

Parra
2010-09-09, 03:35 PM
If he doesn't want them identifying his race/template/tattooed holy symbol/etc., then Mindrape could give a false association for whatever it is and lead to misidentification on the spot, but if the PCs go researching and describe what they saw they'll still get accurate information.

I agree. The players however have not yet done this

Douglas
2010-09-09, 03:37 PM
If thats what had happened, that would be true. It was closer to "you cast true seeing and you see X, your mindraped brain tells you that you see Y"
That is beyond what Mindrape can do. What it can do is "you cast true seeing and you see X, your mindraped brain tells you that X has the (non visually obvious) traits of Y."

Caphi
2010-09-09, 03:42 PM
This is such a waste of mind rape. It's like asking if you can use genesis to create a plane that shelters you from cold.

Parra
2010-09-09, 03:42 PM
3) Character encounters another Lemure, says "oh ****, it's a Pit Fiend," and runs away at top speed hoping that this legendary font of limitless Blasphemies didn't notice him. The character still sees a Lemure accurately as it really is, but he "knows" that the kind of creature matching that appearance is incredibly powerful and dangerous.

this it it exactly (differnt creatures tho obviously). Damn I suck at explaining



For the specific scenario from the OP, Mindrape will not under any circumstances affect what the True Seeing spell reveals. That is beyond Mindrape's capabilities. What it can do is change how the characters would interpret the information.

I agree. But, using the example you gave, the true seeing didsee what it was. The mindraped brain just registered the Lemure as a Pitfiend.

If they ever discribed it to another person, then yes the obvious gaping holes and inconsistencies would come to light. They havent done that yet. They have only ever talked about it amoungst themselves, and they all have the same mindraped memory

Coidzor
2010-09-09, 03:43 PM
True Seeing is anywhere from a 5th to a 7th level spell.

Just create a custom spell for this guy that defeats it. Much simpler.

Or layered polymorph any objects to make it so that the "real form" of the caster has been changed. Two castings each time, bada bing, bada boom.

Parra
2010-09-09, 03:44 PM
True Seeing is anywhere from a 5th to a 7th level spell.

Just create a custom spell for this guy that defeats it. Much simpler.

Or layered polymorph any objects to make it so that the "real form" of the caster has been changed. Two castings each time, bada bing, bada boom.

I was under the impression that true seeing cuts through all of them

jseah
2010-09-09, 03:44 PM
I think it would be easier to simply replace knowledge of what true seeing does.

Make them think detect magic works like true seeing and vice versa.

They cast detect magic (true seeing to them).
He glows. That's it.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-09, 03:44 PM
Not so. Just that at level 8, they cant stop a level 20 wizard screwing with, but not killing, them. They dont even know who it is yet, thats the point. But they are learning, as the storey progress and will eventually deal with it.

Obviously, they can't. But it's a terrible setup. Why does a level 20 wizard need to mess with a party of level 8 people? If you can't answer that question, the story falls apart.

If your story involves the words "prophesy", "chosen ones", or "legend", you do indeed need to read better stories.


If thats what had happened, that would be true. It was closer to "you cast true seeing and you see X, your mindraped brain tells you that you see Y"

Mindrape does not change the actual function of the brain. Merely your memories and such. Your brain will still report what you see visually accurately.


and I suggest you dont read a 1 page from the middle of a long book and decide the entire thing is terrible.

The problem with immensely powerful stupid people is you need to explain how they became immensely powerful.

The answer of "He studied long and hard to become a very intelligent wizard" leaves you with "well...why he stupid?"

Coidzor
2010-09-09, 03:46 PM
I was under the impression that true seeing cuts through all of them

Depends, but usually it's that it becomes the new true form due to it being permanent.

Tetrasodium
2010-09-09, 03:53 PM
The spell doesn't grant that sort of ability. Like others have said, just build a backstory where sure the bbeg is evil... but he's interested in fixing the macguffin and saving the world too since he keeps his stuff on said world and would rather not lose it. Think of it like Belkar... sure he's an evil munchkin, but he's a useful evil munchkin who happens to have similar goals and/or be willing to go along with the goals of everyone else.

Speaking someone who's been a hypnotist... brain washing doesn't really work that way outside of movies. The mind is somewhat self correcting if there is a reason to doubt what's being experienced, people using true sight because they suspect something is wrong would probably not have any trouble seeing the truth after some kind of conditioning, that goes double when their mindblanked buddy says "uhh... what are you guys talking about?". Adjusting the personality or getting a certain reaction (disgust, unease, laughter, fear, etc) out of a given trigger/sight/stimulus is relatively simple to varying degrees of change, hallucinations not so much. This wizard has to be fairly freaking uber to repeatedly mindrape the party, just use the epic spell seeds to keep him disguised... I'm fairly certain at least one of them can get around true sight.

Parra
2010-09-09, 04:04 PM
Obviously, they can't. But it's a terrible setup. Why does a level 20 wizard need to mess with a party of level 8 people? If you can't answer that question, the story falls apart.

So wait, in campaign games you play in, you have never had a major villian that the party needs to work up to to defeat?. Or is the entire world populated by comparative leveled opponents?

Big villians are a major factor in any good story. Could Frodo fresh out of the shire defeat Sauron in the manner he did, or did he need to go on the long adventure to achieve it?
An intelligent person would have said "Hey gandalf, why dont we hitch a ride on those giant eagles and we can be finished by lunch time"
makes for a bad storey though.


If your story involves the words "prophesy", "chosen ones", or "legend", you do indeed need to read better stories.
It doesnt, but I fail to see how that would make it intrinsicly bad. See LotR above.




Mindrape does not change the actual function of the brain. Merely your memories and such. Your brain will still report what you see visually accurately.
Your memories are a record of your perceptions. If your eyes see X, then your memory tells you that you see X.
You get mindraped and most of your knowledge of X is altered to the the same as Y to the point that when you see X you really see Y.
Dyslexia would be a real world example of how wires can get crossed like that


The problem with immensely powerful stupid people is you need to explain how they became immensely powerful.
and it is, though not here (one of my players posted earlier).
He is powerful, he does have a plan, the players (and their free-will) are central to that. No the plan is not fool-proof, if it was then why play the game at all?

Parra
2010-09-09, 04:09 PM
Speaking someone who's been a hypnotist... brain washing doesn't really work that way outside of movies.
neither does magic.


people using true sight because they suspect something is wrong would probably not have any trouble seeing the truth after some kind of conditioning, that goes double when their mindblanked buddy says "uhh... what are you guys talking about?".
This has yet to happen. When it does, then they learn more.



This wizard has to be fairly freaking uber to repeatedly mindrape the party, just use the epic spell seeds to keep him disguised... I'm fairly certain at least one of them can get around true sight.
I know I could have just gone epic, I still can, I would just rather not as I dont know if I want the game to actually get into epic levels yet.

lsfreak
2010-09-09, 04:13 PM
So wait, in campaign games you play in, you have never had a major villian that the party needs to work up to to defeat?. Or is the entire world populated by comparative leveled opponents?
There's level 20 BBEG's - but the level 1 characters aren't expected to fight them. They fight the local corrupt baron of 3rd level. They won't even confront the level 20 BBEG until 15th level (in part because, if the BBEG is doing his job right, he's so well protected or well hidden that no one actually knows who he is). If the BBEG's aren't acting like real people, it stretched suspension of disbelief too much. If the players are fighting a BBEG that's more than 5 levels above them, then either they're dead, the BBEG is lazy (a la Xyklon), or the BBEG isn't being internally consistent.


Big villians are a major factor in any good story. Could Frodo fresh out of the shire defeat Sauron in the manner he did, or did he need to go on the long adventure to achieve it?
Yea, and LotR is a classic example of a story that makes a piss-poor D&D game. If I tried to pull something as asinine as planting 1st-level rogues with a literal God-DMPC, I'd lose all my players.


Your memories are a record of your perceptions. If your eyes see X, then your memory tells you that you see X.
You get mindraped and most of your knowledge of X is altered to the the same as Y to the point that when you see X you really see Y.
No. Everything they really saw as X has been changed into Y. When they see X again, they will see X, as nothing has happened to alter their ability to see X. Now, if they had response X to stimulus A (say, anger), and you changed their recalled response to Y (terror), that's a different story.

Zaydos
2010-09-09, 04:22 PM
Big villians are a major factor in any good story. Could Frodo fresh out of the shire defeat Sauron in the manner he did, or did he need to go on the long adventure to achieve it?

Actually Frodo was arguably stronger in the beginning of the book than the end. You could argue his will had to toughen to not be even weaker at the end than it already was, but his strength was less at the end than the beginning, possibly because of being tired and worn out.


An intelligent person would have said "Hey gandalf, why dont we hitch a ride on those giant eagles and we can be finished by lunch time"
makes for a bad storey though.

That and Sauron had flying monsters that could tear eagles to shreds, would have noticed, and would have killed them taken the ring and won. The eagles make it into Mordor at the end because Sauron is already dying/dead and even then the Nazguls almost kill them before dying because the ring was destroyed. So yeah the heroes running straight up to an uber-big bad is a bad story. The heroes avoiding his eye and playing it smart on the other hand.


It doesnt, but I fail to see how that would make it intrinsicly bad. See LotR above.

The chosen one story can be fun, and might could be done well in a D&D campaign, but use better examples. Also LotR is a really bad setup for a D&D campaign. The massive power level discrepancy between characters, the demigod in the party, etc. So really choose examples from a source that would make a good D&D campaign, and choose ones that actually work with that since your above examples just show you didn't pay much attention to LotR (or just watched the movies).

Tyndmyr
2010-09-09, 04:36 PM
So wait, in campaign games you play in, you have never had a major villian that the party needs to work up to to defeat?. Or is the entire world populated by comparative leveled opponents?

There have been major villians, yes. Frequently requiring a great deal of preparation to defeat.

However, at least in the good campaigns, they were never stupid villians. They didn't hang around a random low level adventuring party all the time. They were off doing things appropriate for their level.


Big villians are a major factor in any good story. Could Frodo fresh out of the shire defeat Sauron in the manner he did, or did he need to go on the long adventure to achieve it?
An intelligent person would have said "Hey gandalf, why dont we hitch a ride on those giant eagles and we can be finished by lunch time"
makes for a bad storey though.

The giant eagles thing DOES kind of subvert the story. Or it would, if yknow, there wasn't all sorts of reasons why that plan would fail instantly. Note that Sauron IS doing his best to reclaim the ring, and isn't being obviously stupid amount it.

Imagine how terrible the story would have been if Sauron had just tagged along with the party at the beginning. That would have made no sense, even if he someone disguised that he was a giant floating eye.

And, as already mentioned, Lord of the rings would make a horribly bad D&D campaign.


Your memories are a record of your perceptions. If your eyes see X, then your memory tells you that you see X.
You get mindraped and most of your knowledge of X is altered to the the same as Y to the point that when you see X you really see Y.
Dyslexia would be a real world example of how wires can get crossed like that

Mindrape does not work like that. It alters memories and personality. It does not cause disabilities or cure them.

You can feed them disinformation about X and Y. You can alter past memories of seeing X. You cannot alter FUTURE events of seeing X.


and it is, though not here (one of my players posted earlier).
He is powerful, he does have a plan, the players (and their free-will) are central to that. No the plan is not fool-proof, if it was then why play the game at all?

There is a huge gap between "not fool-proof" and blatantly stupid.

Kylarra
2010-09-09, 04:39 PM
If a level 20 wizard has the time and resources to expend continually mindraping a group of level 8 adventurers, well, my suspension of disbelief just up and died.

Darklord Xavez
2010-09-09, 04:51 PM
Wait. This spell is actually called Mindrape?:smallconfused:
-Xavez

Coidzor
2010-09-09, 05:02 PM
Wait. This spell is actually called Mindrape?:smallconfused:
-Xavez

Yep. If you're curious to learn more, just search out one of the many, many "Holy Mindrape" or Sanctify the Wicked Vs. Mindrape threads.

Marnath
2010-09-09, 05:11 PM
I wonder how many pages of crystal clear, irrefutable proof will be offered before someone realizes Parra has absolutely no interest in hearing any answer but the one he wants. Seriously, the thread question has been answered by like 7 people, more posts wont change his mind. That being said, this would be an interesting house rule to play a campaign with, assuming the players are fine with it.

Parra
2010-09-09, 05:31 PM
I wonder how many pages of crystal clear, irrefutable proof will be offered before someone realizes Parra has absolutely no interest in hearing any answer but the one he wants.

If I had no interest then why would I post in the first place?

I dunno, maybe its because they way I read the rules differed from others? Weird that, opinions and all.

Besides, a few snobbish answers aside, it seems that others (not everyone, omg more opinions) do indeed agree that Mindrape can be used in that, or similar enough fashion. They just think its lame, and for the most part I agree. Thats why, a good few times now, I asked for alternatives. People have given a few ideas and while some were good they basically boiled down to "make up a new spell, go epic or use another loose rule interpretation"

Seeing as, like I already said, I would rather operate inside the existing rules I made this topic about mindrape in the first place.

So given the following set-up:
Baddie wants to deal with the group face-to-face. (Hands on guy and mis-trustful of underlings)
He wants them to maintain free will (important plot point that they perform particular action at a later date of there own free choosing, but one that he is manipulating them into performing)
He wants to keep his identity hidden and he knows True Seeing will be used at some point, which pierces any disguise he can create. (If the identity is bust, the group can sell the secrets on to his equally powerfully opponents)

How does he keep his identity secret?

Coidzor
2010-09-09, 05:34 PM
Not having an identity to keep secret in the first place if he's that paranoid. :smalltongue:

Zaydos
2010-09-09, 05:36 PM
You can still use Obscuring Mists and Fog Cloud. The PCs are already suspicious, and he still has the excuse "I'm simply trying to keep my real identity hidden" if they're using True Seeing and he's appearing as anything other than what he came to them as it's the same effect. This means they cannot see his face, and that's all he really needs. In fact it creates a double blind effect which is actually less untrustworthy than coming disguised.

Also mundane disguises beat True Seeing. Invest in some ranks in Disguise and Moment of Prescience when you make the check for a whopping +20. What he looks like a female halfling, that doesn't make sense. Still completely possible (with a huge penalty but still).

Or just have him ready an action to counterspell True Seeing.

There are a lot of other ways around that make better RP, better sense, and don't require your BBEG to abuse a power that should be able to make him win instantly.

Marnath
2010-09-09, 05:37 PM
If I had no interest then why would I post in the first place?

I dunno, maybe its because they way I read the rules differed from others? Weird that, opinions and all.


The problem with that is that it's not a matter of opinion, the spell can't do that no matter how you re-interpret it. It is very explicit on what you can change, and the arguements for how it doesn't change future perception abilities have been made already.

Parra
2010-09-09, 05:49 PM
The problem with that is that it's not a matter of opinion, the spell can't do that no matter how you re-interpret it. It is very explicit on what you can change, and the arguements for how it doesn't change future perception abilities have been made already.

I would say that the limits of altering someones memory is indeed open to interpretation.

I say it can alter a memory to include a brainwash-like effect. Others (you too simingly) Say that it cant.

It can alter any memory, any. It can even give you a philospoically opposed alignment i.e. CE -> LG (without going to much into nature v's nurture, most would agree that your experiance in life shapes who you are). Yet somehow it cant implant the memory of being brainwashed.

Dracimus
2010-09-09, 05:51 PM
Or just have him ready an action to counterspell True Seeing.

There are a lot of other ways around that make better RP, better sense, and don't require your BBEG to abuse a power that should be able to make him win instantly.

Hi, player who cast true seeing here :-) the issue was i went out of the room. Got a scroll of it i bought, cast it and then came back into the room. he couldnt counter as no LoS and if he had we would have gotten even more suspicious.

Marnath
2010-09-09, 05:53 PM
Mindrape does not change the actual function of the brain. Merely your memories and such. Your brain will still report what you see visually accurately.



I would say that the limits of altering someones memory is indeed open to interpretation.

I say it can alter a memory to include a brainwash-like effect. Others (you too simingly) Say that it cant.

It can alter any memory, any. It can even give you a philospoically opposed alignment i.e. CE -> LG (without going to much into nature v's nurture, most would agree that your experiance in life shapes who you are). Yet somehow it cant implant the memory of being brainwashed.

The qoute by Tynd is what I am saying. You can brainwash someone so they think X is Y, but they still see an X, not a Y.

Coidzor
2010-09-09, 05:55 PM
I would say that the limits of altering someones memory is indeed open to interpretation.

I say it can alter a memory to include a brainwash-like effect. Others (you too simingly) Say that it cant.

Ok. So what's the point of this thread then if you had already made up your mind completely and are not to be dissuaded by your peers?

Parra
2010-09-09, 05:56 PM
The qoute by Tynd is what I am saying. You can brainwash someone so they think X is Y, but they still see an X, not a Y.

But can 'standard' brain-washing leave post-hypnotic type suggestions?

Talakeal
2010-09-09, 05:57 PM
You might be able to pull of such an affect with mind rape. It is like polymorphing a corpse into a weird template or polymorphing any object into anti matter to create a bomb. It might technically be possible, but you are going to need to work with the game master to achieve it.

As other posters have pointed out, mind rape is overkill. Once you have someone under the effects of a mind rape you can turn them into whomever you want, it really makes no sense for someone who is smart enough to cast ninth level spells and understand conditioning to not realize he can simply turn them into people who will willingly do whatever they need to do without trickery and still be slavishly loyal.
Much easier solutions would be to simply create a custom spell / magic item that prevents true seeing from working on him or causes such a conditioning affect in the players. Both are perfectly legal. If you only want to use printed spells have him use Wish. That can certainly protect his true identity better than mind rape if the DM wants it to.

Also, the lord of the rings eagle analogy really doesn't work for the following reasons:

A: Eagles are very hard to bargain with and might simply say no.
B: Eagles are simple relatively minded creatures and would probably fall under the control of the ring during the journey.
C: The atmosphere of Mordor is very toxic, especially near mount doom, and the eagles aren't used to the environment. They would almost certainly not be able to make the trip across all of Mordor at the speed necessary to avoid Sauron's forces and trying to do so would probably kill them.
D: Sauron would see the eagles coming from hundreds of miles off. It would be a simple matter to simply shoot them down, station an army in their path on the ground, or engage them with flying monsters of his own.
E: The cracks of doom are not an open air caldera, rather it is a tunnel into the heart of the mountain. You couldn't simply make a "bombing run", you would still have to land the eagles and walk the last part of the trip.
G: No one has the will necessary to intentionally destroy the ring. Gollum was only able to destroy it be accident. Even if points A-E weren't factors Frodo would have simply decided not to drop the ring at the last moment.

Parra
2010-09-09, 05:59 PM
Ok. So what's the point of this thread then if you had already made up your mind completely and are not to be dissuaded by your peers?

Who said I can not be dissuaded? I just havent heard a compelling enough arguement.

Im not set in stone about anything, but if someone wants to convince me the sky is green, when I think and see it as blue, they want to have a bloody good arguement.

Coidzor
2010-09-09, 05:59 PM
But can 'standard' brain-washing leave post-hypnotic type suggestions?

Or better yet, why the "loose" interpretation of the uber wizard being able to change what his true form is for the purpose of true seeing leaves more of a foul taste in your mouth than mucking around in the details of this one spell that should be used rather sparingly given its nature as a game-ender?


Im not set in stone about anything, but if someone wants to convince me the sky is green, when I think and see it as blue, they want to have a bloody good arguement.

So, we just have to cast your version of mindrape on you? :smallamused:

Parra
2010-09-09, 06:04 PM
Also, the lord of the rings eagle analogy really doesn't work for the following reasons:

A: Eagles are very hard to bargain with and might simply say no.
B: Eagles are simple relatively minded creatures and would probably fall under the control of the ring during the journey.
C: The atmosphere of Mordor is very toxic, especially near mount doom, and the eagles aren't used to the environment. They would almost certainly not be able to make the trip across all of Mordor at the speed necessary to avoid Sauron's forces and trying to do so would probably kill them.
D: Sauron would see the eagles coming from hundreds of miles off. It would be a simple matter to simply shoot them down, station an army in their path on the ground, or engage them with flying monsters of his own.
E: The cracks of doom are not an open air caldera, rather it is a tunnel into the heart of the mountain. You couldn't simply make a "bombing run", you would still have to land the eagles and walk the last part of the trip.
G: No one has the will necessary to intentionally destroy the ring. Gollum was only able to destroy it be accident. Even if points A-E weren't factors Frodo would have simply decided not to drop the ring at the last moment.

Cept the eagles did come. Crossing from where gandalf was at the gates to mount doom in quick order. Ok, so Sauron was dead at the time, but its not like he was shooting lazors from his eyes. Enough eagles would have kept the nazgul busy long enough for frodo to swoop through. And it was argueably the length of time with the ring that stopped Frodo throwing it in at the end.

okie, so lotr wasnt the best analogy to use, but you got the point I was trying to make yes?

Zaydos
2010-09-09, 06:05 PM
Hi, player who cast true seeing here :-) the issue was i went out of the room. Got a scroll of it i bought, cast it and then came back into the room. he couldnt counter as no LoS and if he had we would have gotten even more suspicious.

See if the villain is paranoid and sets up defenses and the PCs find a way around it they should be rewarded for it. The DM knows what the PCs can do and there's a counter for everything somewhere and the DM has access to it all. If he wants to make someone immune to something he can without bending the rules for one of the most broken spells in the game.

Foresight + Celerity + Area Dispel unless you had another 4th+ level spell active.

Zaydos
2010-09-09, 06:07 PM
Cept the eagles did come. Crossing from where gandalf was at the gates to mount doom in quick order. Ok, so Sauron was dead at the time, but its not like he was shooting lazors from his eyes. Enough eagles would have kept the nazgul busy long enough for frodo to swoop through. And it was argueably the length of time with the ring that stopped Frodo throwing it in at the end.

okie, so lotr wasnt the best analogy to use, but you got the point I was trying to make yes?

Except that the Eagles are fairly rare. Arrows can still hit them. And who knows how many nameless beasts (sometimes called fell beasts in related literature but no name is given to them in LotR) Sauron had except that he had enough to replace lost ones for the Nazguls. It would have been a suicide run. Heck this would have been suicidal if it hadn't been for Aragorn's distraction at the Black Gate as it is.

Marnath
2010-09-09, 06:08 PM
Who said I can not be dissuaded? I just havent heard a compelling enough arguement.

Im not set in stone about anything, but if someone wants to convince me the sky is green, when I think and see it as blue, they want to have a bloody good arguement.

Examples of you not being dissuaded? ok.


I would say that the limits of altering someones memory is indeed open to interpretation.

I say it can alter a memory to include a brainwash-like effect. Others (you too simingly) Say that it cant.

It can alter any memory, any. It can even give you a philospoically opposed alignment i.e. CE -> LG (without going to much into nature v's nurture, most would agree that your experiance in life shapes who you are). Yet somehow it cant implant the memory of being brainwashed.


If I had no interest then why would I post in the first place?

I dunno, maybe its because they way I read the rules differed from others? Weird that, opinions and all.

Besides, a few snobbish answers aside, it seems that others (not everyone, omg more opinions) do indeed agree that Mindrape can be used in that, or similar enough fashion. They just think its lame, and for the most part I agree. Thats why, a good few times now, I asked for alternatives. People have given a few ideas and while some were good they basically boiled down to "make up a new spell, go epic or use another loose rule interpretation"

Seeing as, like I already said, I would rather operate inside the existing rules I made this topic about mindrape in the first place.

So given the following set-up:
Baddie wants to deal with the group face-to-face. (Hands on guy and mis-trustful of underlings)
He wants them to maintain free will (important plot point that they perform particular action at a later date of there own free choosing, but one that he is manipulating them into performing)
He wants to keep his identity hidden and he knows True Seeing will be used at some point, which pierces any disguise he can create. (If the identity is bust, the group can sell the secrets on to his equally powerfully opponents)

How does he keep his identity secret?


Not so. Just that at level 8, they cant stop a level 20 wizard screwing with, but not killing, them. They dont even know who it is yet, thats the point. But they are learning, as the storey progress and will eventually deal with it.




If thats what had happened, that would be true. It was closer to "you cast true seeing and you see X, your mindraped brain tells you that you see Y"



and I suggest you dont read a 1 page from the middle of a long book and decide the entire thing is terrible.


Its this very thing I am trying to maintain, otherwise I may as well go back to playing make believe with toys like when I was a kid.

I do have a reason why their free will is important, and why he has been employing the group in the first place but also why the baddie wants to keep his identity hidden. Yes he is that powerful and that paranoid.


It is to a degree Plot Armor, i'll admit that. However I dont like the idea of plot armour any more than you do (guessing you dont like it). If I can find a way within the rules to achieve the same effect I'll take it, Mindrape-brainwashing (even if it is pushing it a bit) is the only one I have found so far that fits my needs.

...should I stop? There are more...

Parra
2010-09-09, 06:09 PM
Or better yet, why the "loose" interpretation of the uber wizard being able to change what his true form is for the purpose of true seeing leaves more of a foul taste in your mouth than mucking around in the details of this one spell that should be used rather sparingly given its nature as a game-ender?
Because I would rather work within the existing rules if I can instead of resorting to a new made-up spell.
I do agree, that its a dodgey interpretation. Not quite at the level of some other cheesy rule abuse, but not ideal all the same.




So, we just have to cast your version of mindrape on you? :smallamused:

yea, no way mindrape works like that. shesh waht was I thinking:smallwink:

Marnath
2010-09-09, 06:10 PM
Because I would rather work within the existing rules if I can instead of resorting to a new made-up spell.


Too bad then that the rules don't support that. House rules it is I guess...

Parra
2010-09-09, 06:11 PM
...should I stop? There are more...

or maybe, Instead of just quoting what I have already said, give your own thoughts as to why it cant alter your memories to include a brainwash?

Jack Zander
2010-09-09, 06:13 PM
or maybe, Instead of just quoting what I have already said, give your own thoughts as to why it cant alter your memories to include a brainwash?

Even after brainwashing, I still cannot see how a person's perception will change. A dog will still look like a dog.

Marnath
2010-09-09, 06:16 PM
The problem with that is that it's not a matter of opinion, the spell can't do that no matter how you re-interpret it. It is very explicit on what you can change, and the arguements for how it doesn't change future perception abilities have been made already.


The qoute by Tynd is what I am saying. You can brainwash someone so they think X is Y, but they still see an X, not a Y.


or maybe, Instead of just quoting what I have already said, give your own thoughts as to why it cant alter your memories to include a brainwash?

I did. See? My own thoughts are to agree with all the other people who made very eloquent posts explaining the matter.

Tharck
2010-09-09, 06:17 PM
What you should do is play the entire campaign as if he's not mind-raping them, it's not an illusion ect. Then throughout the campaign have moments that things do not make sense. People thanking them for things they never did, or good guys attacking them for no reason - and doing horrible things to them for no reason.

Towards the end of the campaign, the PCs realize that everything they think they experienced is really the result of a mind-rape placed on them the day before by - whomever.

Kinda like a Matrix theme with a bit of a "and then they woke up."

It's more interesting and clever than telling them to behave a certain way. Dominate isn't too bad when it lasts a small battle, but its annoying when its an entire campaign.

Dig?

Parra
2010-09-09, 06:18 PM
Even after brainwashing, I still cannot see how a person's perception will change. A dog will still look like a dog.

Presumably you have seen spy movies or sci-fi (x-files, BSG, ST:TNG etc) where some random spod has been brainwashed to do XYZ but then have no recollection of it?

Person saw a dog. But when they think about it, they decide they saw a cat instead. Or saw nothing at all.

Jack Zander
2010-09-09, 06:19 PM
Presumably you have seen spy movies or sci-fi (x-files, BSG, ST:TNG etc) where some random spod has been brainwashed to do XYZ but then have no recollection of it?

Person saw a dog. But when they think about it, they decide they saw a cat instead. Or saw nothing at all.

Can't say I ever have. That sounds much more like mind control to me than brainwashing.

Tharck
2010-09-09, 06:19 PM
In addition Mindrape is fine for the purposes he is using it for - if he did the mindrape each time after they were finished talking to him. Of course saves should be rolled.

Marnath
2010-09-09, 06:21 PM
Putting aside the cyclical argument for a moment..I seriously doubt a bunch of 8th level people have a good shot at passing a 20th level caster's DC, except on natural twenties.

Parra
2010-09-09, 06:22 PM
What you should do is play the entire campaign as if he's not mind-raping them, it's not an illusion ect. Then throughout the campaign have moments that things do not make sense. People thanking them for things they never did, or good guys attacking them for no reason - and doing horrible things to them for no reason.

Towards the end of the campaign, the PCs realize that everything they think they experienced is really the result of a mind-rape placed on them the day before by - whomever.

Kinda like a Matrix theme with a bit of a "and then they woke up."

It's more interesting and clever than telling them to behave a certain way. Dominate isn't too bad when it lasts a small battle, but its annoying when its an entire campaign.

Dig?

I dig. I haven't, however, used mindrape to tell them to behave anyway.

Kylarra
2010-09-09, 06:22 PM
My suspension of disbelief is still dying over here. What's so important about these level 8 adventurers that a level 20 wizard with equally powerful rivals is willing to expend all of his 9th level slots on a shady interpretation of a poorly written spell?

Marnath
2010-09-09, 06:26 PM
My suspension of disbelief is still dying over here. What's so important about these level 8 adventurers that a level 20 wizard with equally powerful rivals is willing to expend all of his 9th level slots on a shady interpretation of a poorly written spell?

Oddly enough, I can support this. It's a campaign thing, maybe he is powerful enough he has no real threats from his nearest rivals, in which case he could play with them out of boredom. Obviously he can't do what the OP wants without Dm fiat, but he could definately jerk their strings.

Kylarra
2010-09-09, 06:28 PM
Oddly enough, I can support this. It's a campaign thing, maybe he is powerful enough he has no real threats from his nearest rivals, in which case he could play with them out of boredom. Obviously he can't do what the OP wants without Dm fiat, but he could definately jerk their strings.His rivals are apparently powerful enough, known enough, and/or close enough that these level 8s could sell information about him to them, so the "they aren't threats to him" hypothesis doesn't really hold water.

Parra
2010-09-09, 06:32 PM
My suspension of disbelief is still dying over here. What's so important about these level 8 adventurers that a level 20 wizard with equally powerful rivals is willing to expend all of his 9th level slots on a shady interpretation of a poorly written spell?

He isnt using any slots to do it, scrolls. Expensive yes, but within the guys resources. The power level in this game is quite high, the group themselves have in the region of 10ish time the standard WBL but are, in relative terms, still small fish. Getting bigger, but still small.

If it helps, think of the baddies plan to be along the lines of fattening a turkey before you slaughter it.

Edit:

just to add, the baddies anonimity is his biggest defence

Zaydos
2010-09-09, 06:34 PM
He isnt using any slots to do it, scrolls. Expensive yes, but within the guys resources. The power level in this game is quite high, the group themselves have in the region of 10ish time the standard WBL but are, in relative terms, still small fish. Getting bigger, but still small.

If it helps, think of the baddies plan to be along the lines of fattening a turkey before you slaughter it.

Edit:

just to add, the baddies anonimity is his biggest defence

Scrolls!?!?!?!?

That makes less sense than spell slots. At least the latter are recoverable on a daily basis.

Parra
2010-09-09, 06:37 PM
Scrolls!?!?!?!?

That makes less sense than spell slots. At least the latter are recoverable on a daily basis.

Good thing he doesnt do it on a daily basis then isnt it.

on the last mission he offered the group 200k, paying 4k a scroll isnt an issue.

Like I said, high powered.

Marnath
2010-09-09, 06:39 PM
just to add, the baddies anonimity is his biggest defence

If a level 20 wizard's only defense is anonymity, he's doing it wrong. And there are plenty of rules-legal ways of maintaining that without wasting 9th level spells on a spell that permanently erases (current)memories of him.

Parra
2010-09-09, 06:40 PM
If a level 20 wizard's only defense is anonymity, he's doing it wrong. And there are plenty of rules-legal ways of maintaining that without wasting 9th level spells on a spell that permanently erases (current)memories of him.

Biggest defence, not only defence. If your opponents think your dead they wont exactly be looking for you now will they?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-09-09, 06:45 PM
1) Character encounters a Lemure, laughs at the pathetic weakling of a devil, and kills it.
2) Character gets Mindraped.
3) Character encounters another Lemure, says "oh ****, it's a Pit Fiend," and runs away at top speed hoping that this legendary font of limitless Blasphemies didn't notice him. The character still sees a Lemure accurately as it really is, but he "knows" that the kind of creature matching that appearance is incredibly powerful and dangerous.

This is accurate. Your players will know exactly what your BBEG looks like, and could pick him out of a room of people if they had to. If they can connect him with his actions, then they know that he is responsible, and could fight him and/or figure out it's him.

They might think he's someone else, but they will still see him as he appears to be. If presented with some evidence that their perceptions are wrong (meeting the person they think he is, for example), they should be able to overcome the trick, although they'd still be fairly confused.

Marnath
2010-09-09, 06:45 PM
Biggest defence, not only defence. If your opponents think your dead they wont exactly be looking for you now will they?

Ok, so your big bad wizard has got his rivals thinking he's dead, so he mindrapes some patsies so they wont sell information out....how did he get his rival to think he's dead in the first place? If the answer is also mindrape he even more than on the lowbies would just kill them if he is in a position to mindrape.

Parra
2010-09-09, 06:53 PM
Ok, so your big bad wizard has got his rivals thinking he's dead, so he mindrapes some patsies so they wont sell information out....how did he get his rival to think he's dead in the first place?

That part the pc's havent worked out yet (one of many) and since I know that 2 of them are now reading this thread I'm not going to get into it here.

and no its not more mindraping

Kylarra
2010-09-09, 06:55 PM
He should just mindrape some poor sap to be his loyal servant and go-between.

Marnath
2010-09-09, 06:58 PM
That part the pc's havent worked out yet (one of many) and since I know that 2 of them are now reading this thread I'm not going to get into it here.

and no its not more mindraping

I normally see Dm's who have players that come on here add (my players stay out) to their thread titles. I don't know about yours, but thats usually a decent deterent to spoilers. :smallsmile:

Parra
2010-09-09, 06:59 PM
1) Character encounters a Lemure, laughs at the pathetic weakling of a devil, and kills it.
2) Character gets Mindraped.
3) Character encounters another Lemure, says "oh ****, it's a Pit Fiend," and runs away at top speed hoping that this legendary font of limitless Blasphemies didn't notice him. The character still sees a Lemure accurately as it really is, but he "knows" that the kind of creature matching that appearance is incredibly powerful and dangerous.


This is accurate. Your players will know exactly what your BBEG looks like, and could pick him out of a room of people if they had to. If they can connect him with his actions, then they know that he is responsible, and could fight him and/or figure out it's him.

They might think he's someone else, but they will still see him as he appears to be. If presented with some evidence that their perceptions are wrong (meeting the person they think he is, for example), they should be able to overcome the trick, although they'd still be fairly confused.

This is more or less what I was aiming at, including the potential hole in the charade.
Thing is though is that the group are mostly evil and paranoid themselves. They dont 100% trust each other, let alone outside people. So there dealings with the guy has never come up in conversation outside of the group

Parra
2010-09-09, 07:01 PM
He should just mindrape some poor sap to be his loyal servant and go-between.

I thought of that too, but it makes negotiating difficult.


I normally see Dm's who have players that come on here add (my players stay out) to their thread titles. I don't know about yours, but thats usually a decent deterent to spoilers. :smallsmile:

I already know the temptation would be too much for them.

Marnath
2010-09-09, 07:03 PM
Lol, thats why you go on here sometime and sow mis-information. :smallwink: Screw em up and then they won't know what to think is true.

Kylarra
2010-09-09, 07:05 PM
I thought of that too, but it makes negotiating difficult.Er... why? Important people almost always send underlings to do their business for them, particularly paranoid ones and those pretending to be dead in a world where magic exists.

Mikeavelli
2010-09-09, 08:26 PM
Most high-level wizards in my campaign world use a homebrew version of Project Image that doesn't require line of effect to be maintained in order to communicate with people they don't want to be seen by.

They do this especially with my players, because they're notorious sociopaths as likely to strike down anyone crossing their path as they are to strike a deal.

It's just as effective at concealing your identity (make the image appear as anything you want) - and your players will probably whine less about it because it doesn't involve cannot-be-made saving throws.

icefractal
2010-09-10, 02:31 AM
A more concrete example would help here, but I think you're talking about something like this:

* BBEG is a Pit Fiend
* PC uses True Seeing
* PC sees an elf. Like many elves, it is twelve feet tall with red skin, horns, claws, wings, and large fangs.
* The PC remembers that some elves are stunted (only 5-6 feet tall, no wings or claws), and it is considered impolite to discuss elvish appearance for that reason.
* If asked about Pit Fiends, they might remember that those are the ones that look like a giant metal toad.

That seems do-able. Of course, it could easily fall apart if the subject comes up in conversation with anyone not affected, but in controlled conditions it should be fine.

FelixG
2010-09-10, 05:18 AM
It cant be used for what you want but it could be used for this:

Your BBEG is really a pit fiend who is using the spell, the first time he encounters the players he implants the memory or changes the memory on each of them to "Pit fiends are celestial guardians of good."

Now when they do use true seeing the hcaracter using it will see the pit fiend and recall "Oh hey, hes one of those celestial guardians." PC: "Why are you hiding the fact that you are a guardian of good mr BBEG?" BBEG: "Oh well i dont want people to know on this plane that i am influencing the outcome of a future conflict in the favor of good."

BAM your characters now think he is still trust worthy, thinks he is a good celestial and are inclined to believe him and keep his secret safe so they can do the greater good under his sneaky deception.

The only real hiccup is if they come across something to discount this fact, say another pit fiend who jumps them and tries to eat their flesh and they are suddenly confronted by the question "Why would a guardian of good try to eat us?"

Anteros
2010-09-10, 07:45 AM
Who said I can not be dissuaded? I just havent heard a compelling enough arguement.

Im not set in stone about anything, but if someone wants to convince me the sky is green, when I think and see it as blue, they want to have a bloody good arguement.

You've had like 40 people tell you it won't work and one or two say "it might work, but it's a big stretch, and a really bad idea."

Honestly, if you were my GM and pulled stunts like this I would not play with you at all.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-10, 08:09 AM
I would say that the limits of altering someones memory is indeed open to interpretation.

I say it can alter a memory to include a brainwash-like effect. Others (you too simingly) Say that it cant.

It can alter any memory, any. It can even give you a philospoically opposed alignment i.e. CE -> LG (without going to much into nature v's nurture, most would agree that your experiance in life shapes who you are). Yet somehow it cant implant the memory of being brainwashed.

Brainwashing someone to modify their future perceptions of reality does not even exist as a mechanic in D&D. So, no, you can't.

You are trying to make a spell be a permanent non-magical dominate. That's not what mindrape is.

hamishspence
2010-09-10, 08:15 AM
It can cause madness, if the caster chooses.

Maybe the caster can choose the precise nature of the target's madness?

Tyndmyr
2010-09-10, 08:20 AM
Well, I see where you're going with that, but it's still a stretch. A huge one. If a player came up to me, and asked if he could use mindrape to create a customized madness that would, as it's only effect, create an irresistable tendancy to see one individual as something completely different, I know what I would say.

It'd be "Hahahahahhahahahahhaaahahaha, *gasp* ahhhahahahaha. No."

hamishspence
2010-09-10, 08:25 AM
True- at the very least, it should be one that already exists in the SRD/Unearthed Arcana list of madnessess.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-10, 08:48 AM
So...if ridiculously high DC scrolls of mindrape are easily available for 4k each, as you claim the BBEG uses them repeatedly, one for each member of the party...well, there's an obvious solution.

Players, you have more than 4k gold at level 8. Mindrape that suspicious character to be completely servile to you, and desiring only to fulfill your every command. Leave other memories intact.

Your first command should be "tell me everything".

Your next command should be "make us more scrolls of mindrape".

Tharck
2010-09-10, 09:06 AM
Putting aside the cyclical argument for a moment..I seriously doubt a bunch of 8th level people have a good shot at passing a 20th level caster's DC, except on natural twenties.

Cleric - 8th level.

+6 base will save.
+4 WIS (16 base with +2 stat points)

Roll is 11-30 (with 31+ being automatic success)

Wizard 20th level: DC 10 + 9th level spell + 10 (31 INT.) Based on +6 item, +2 race, +5 stat points, +15 base, +3 age catagory.

DC 29. 15% chance.
One could argue feats to augment the DC, I can argue feats to increase the Cleric's save. One could argue Monster race, I can argue 3x multiclass into good will save classes and then prestieging into 3 more. Should be around a +13 Base will save then.

Abies
2010-09-10, 09:41 AM
Biggest defence, not only defence. If your opponents think your dead they wont exactly be looking for you now will they?

If his opponents have any proof he's dead besides a gem sitting on their mantle containing his soul, they are doing something wrong.

No reasonably intelligent enemy will do something so pedestrian as killing a significant threat. That's like handing them a get out of jail free card. All it would take to get back into action is one other person in the world with enough diamonds and the willingness to cast ressurect (which in many worlds, can just be a paid service).

If you are suggesting this guy's best defence is annominity, but also that he's a hands-on guy who chums around with lowbies who can blow his cover. And he does not even have the foresight to do something as simple as wearing a mask, the problem is not that Mindrape can't do what you want it to, it is that you have created an incredibly flawed and unbelievable character whose mental defects would reasonably render him harmless.

Why does this simpleton not create a Simulacrum, and have it present itself as "ther real Guy" and watch in with scrying during all interactions. Better yet, Kidnap some homeless guy, use Mindrape as intended to make a willing slave, then Magic Jar himself into the Homeless guy's body. There, you have a True-Seeing proof way of looking nothing like your true self that does not require a questionable interpretation of a spell description. Just use Magic Jar as intended.

FelixG
2010-09-10, 09:46 AM
All it would take to get back into action is one other person in the world with enough diamonds and the willingness to cast ressurect (which in many worlds, can just be a paid service).


Just look at OOTS for an example of this! oracle devines when he will die, hires some folk in advance to come resurrect him after the fact!

Contingent spell upon death cast greater teleport to hirelings plase of business-> hireling casts the agreed upon spell that has been payed for in advance upon the return of your corpse via the contingency

For added effect get an inevitable to oversee the contract. No weaseling out of that one for the hireling :D

Gray Mage
2010-09-10, 09:47 AM
I think that Tyndmyr already said that, but your BBEG shouldn't be the one that is dealing with the party IMO, especially if he's paranoid. His dragon, lieutenant or anyone down the hierarchy that is not important enough to have the need to keep the identity secret but knows the BBEG's. In short, instead of they talking and seeing the BBEG, they do bussiness with a middle man, probably of lower level than the BBEG.

lsfreak
2010-09-10, 10:02 AM
I think that Tyndmyr already said that, but your BBEG shouldn't be the one that is dealing with the party IMO, especially if he's paranoid. His dragon, lieutenant or anyone down the hierarchy that is not important enough to have the need to keep the identity secret but knows the BBEG's. In short, instead of they talking and seeing the BBEG, they do bussiness with a middle man, probably of lower level than the BBEG.

Even better is the kind of middleman who is repeatedly mindraped into thinking he's the big bad. Then even if he's captured/tortured/magically compelled to tell the truth, no one learns anything.

Ormur
2010-09-10, 10:09 AM
If you want to negate true seeing just have him continually surrounded by an invisible fog cloud. Without magical aids to seeing his disguise works perfectly but once the players pull out true seeing they'll just see a big bank of fog.

Gray Mage
2010-09-10, 10:16 AM
Even better is the kind of middleman who is repeatedly mindraped into thinking he's the big bad. Then even if he's captured/tortured/magically compelled to tell the truth, no one learns anything.

But then you fall back on the blowing through resources like candy, that while the OP isn't concerned about, it's not smart for the big bad to do. For the problems you cited, just make him hard to capture, with contingencied teleports for example, give him good reasons to not betray him, even with intimidation, and for the telling the truth, this is why the middle man should be a bard with max bluff and glibness.

Abies
2010-09-10, 10:34 AM
Just look at OOTS for an example of this! oracle devines when he will die, hires some folk in advance to come resurrect him after the fact!

Contingent spell upon death cast greater teleport to hirelings plase of business-> hireling casts the agreed upon spell that has been payed for in advance upon the return of your corpse via the contingency

For added effect get an inevitable to oversee the contract. No weaseling out of that one for the hireling :D

Why worry about the body? This guy is blowing through Mindrape scrolls like candy. Have someone out there with an arbitrairly high number of True Ressurection scrolls reading one off every month. If the BBEG has died, then it'll work. If he's still alive, who cares, apparently money is no object.

(Incidnetally, the mention of the use of large numbers of scrolls reminded me of the scroll dupe bug in Oblivion. I can imagine the BBEG standing alone in his room, holding a scroll in one hand and throwing another down on the ground, only to have it explode into a thousand copies, filling the room with parchment.)

Toliudar
2010-09-10, 10:36 AM
If the ONLY point of this is to maintain the BBEG's anonymity, there really are more reliable and less intrusive ways of doing this. The mindraped shmuck does the negotiating, and if the BBEG is such a control freak, then give him telepathy and having him hang around in the basement/attic/whatever while the conversation is taking place. He tells the shmuck what to say, and as far as the PC's are concerned, the shmuck IS the guy. There are no magic traces that suggest otherwise.

A much simpler solution, with a side order of not giving the players a saving throw or having to mess with their heads on a regular basis.

FelixG
2010-09-10, 10:42 AM
If you must use mind rape perhaps this:

BBEG can alter memories, change a mooks alignment, give him all of your memories, then wipe out the part about his master plan, only leaving the bits that the party has to complete, being a near perfect copy of the BBEG mentally he will know the necessity for the memory gaps and then your BBEG can deal with the players in a unique fashion.

Haarkla
2010-09-10, 10:43 AM
Evil Wizard comes along and mindrapes the individual. As part of his nefarious scheme he alters part of your memories.

Your Eyes see a creature, it sends the information to memory part of your brain to see if it knows what it is. Your Memory tells you that a creature matching what you see is known as a Cat. Your memory also prepares any other useful information it has about Cats (should the need arise), your memory tells him that Cats are safe and playful. So you act accordingly. The guy standing next to you sees a Dog.

Seem reasonable so far?
I would say you can alter someones mind so they think a dog is a type of cat, and react to it accordingly. However they still physically see a dog and can learn the difference between normal cats, and "those huge wolf-like cats that bark, bite and wear collars, which everybody else calls dogs".


The group have been dealing with this individual for some time. During the opening encounter he mindrapes the entire group and alters there memories about various things.
One of the things he altered is how they percieve him in his true form (he polymorphs alot). After a few encounters the group get suspicious about this individual and what to know who they are really dealing with. To that end they purchase a scroll of True Seeing, a member of the group casts it and walks into the room to see what he really looks like. Instead of seeing his True form, they see the pre-altered memory of him and he registers as something odd, but safe.

In my opinion the Big Bad could alter their previous memories of seeing his true form ("Buts thats not what his true form was like before!")

Or can implant false memories relating to his true form. ("Twelve feet tall, red skin, horns, claws, wings, pointed tail and large fangs, thats what a type of celestial being of pure good looks like.")

But could not alter future visual perceptions of his true form. Mindrape alters memories not visual perceptions.


he will contine to see the Baddie as the memory altered version, not what he really is.

I realise that this interpretation does push the limit of what mindrape can do, but can Mindrape do this by RAW, by RAI?
In my opinion all characters will see the Baddie as what he really is.

Persiflage
2010-09-10, 11:11 AM
So given the following set-up:
Baddie wants to deal with the group face-to-face. (Hands on guy and mis-trustful of underlings)
He wants them to maintain free will (important plot point that they perform particular action at a later date of there own free choosing, but one that he is manipulating them into performing)
He wants to keep his identity hidden and he knows True Seeing will be used at some point, which pierces any disguise he can create. (If the identity is bust, the group can sell the secrets on to his equally powerfully opponents)

How does he keep his identity secret?

Mindrape does not do what you want it to. Period.

Now to answer the question above. Some of these have been done already, but...

He's uber-powerful and uber-paranoid, right? Doesn't trust any minions to do the job for him and wants to be hands-on in the discussions with the party? Great. So he has a construct (made by him or made for him) that he sends to meetings in his stead. The construct looks just like "him", for a given value of "him" that means "however he wants the PC's to think of him". He uses a spell to see through the eyes and speak through the mouth of the construct. It doesn't matter if the PC's use true seeing and determine that it's a construct because they still don't know who he is.

Alternatively, he dominates some poor sap who has never seen him and sends him in his stead. So the PC's realise... so what? They can even dispel the domination effect and it won't help them: the guy doesn't know anything.

Alternatively, he uses project multiple images to speak to the party: the image he sends in can look like anything at all and he doesn't need line of effect or line of sight to maintain it. True seeing sees it's an illusion... and?

Alternatively, he uses magic jar to possess a creature. The subject wouldn't be "polymorphed, changed or transmuted" so true seeing won't help. Even if the party somehow realise what's going on, once again it doesn't really matter.

Alternatively, he uses one of the many ways to become an Intellect Devourer with the Body Thief supernatural ability, kills a medium-sized humanoid and inhabits his body for the duration of the meeting. And because he is indeed very paranoid, he casts an illusion over himself in advance so that when they DO use true seeing they'll only see the image of what the possessed human really looks like. And he wears a false moustache and wig under the illusion. And an extra pair of rubber arms.

Or, you know, the invisible fog cloud thing. Or some combination of the above.

Seriously, there are dozens of perfectly good solutions to the problem that don't involve DM fiat abuse.

Parra
2010-09-10, 11:37 AM
Alternatively, he uses magic jar to possess a creature. The subject wouldn't be "polymorphed, changed or transmuted" so true seeing won't help. Even if the party somehow realise what's going on, once again it doesn't really matter.
Of all the alternatives you and others have given, this is probably the best and only one that works given who the baddie is (as an aside he cannot be ressed). Should have thought of that one.

Hague
2010-09-10, 12:13 PM
I like the idea of the brainwashed crony thinking they're the bad guy. Kinda reminds me of The Octopus from The Spirit He was a villain, but he certainly wasn't the mastermind. At the end, the real bad guy had everyone thinking that she was just a lackey and got away.

Marnath
2010-09-10, 04:23 PM
A more concrete example would help here, but I think you're talking about something like this:

* BBEG is a Pit Fiend
* PC uses True Seeing
* PC sees an elf. Like many elves, it is twelve feet tall with red skin, horns, claws, wings, and large fangs.
* The PC remembers that some elves are stunted (only 5-6 feet tall, no wings or claws), and it is considered impolite to discuss elvish appearance for that reason.
* If asked about Pit Fiends, they might remember that those are the ones that look like a giant metal toad.

That seems do-able. Of course, it could easily fall apart if the subject comes up in conversation with anyone not affected, but in controlled conditions it should be fine.

This is the gist of what we were saying earlier, Parra.


Of all the alternatives you and others have given, this is probably the best and only one that works given who the baddie is (as an aside he cannot be ressed). Should have thought of that one.

I can't believe I missed that, either. :smallredface: If i had remembered that we wouldn't have wasted four pages arguing. Magic jar would be awesome for what you want to do.