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Niezck
2010-09-11, 06:26 PM
Still pretty new to this, so go easy :smallredface:

http://wallpaper.metalship.org/images/silver-knight.jpg

Spellslayer

HD: d10

Entry Requirements:

Alignment: Any Lawful
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Feats: Mage Slayer
Special: Must perform the Ritual of the Blade (See below).

Class Skills: (4+Int modifier per level) Climb, Craft, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Arcana), Move Silently, Ride, Spellcraft, Swim, Tumble

Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: A Spellslayer gains no proficiencies.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|Reflective Blade, Magebane

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Magic is Magic

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|Weapon of the Enemy

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|Share the Power

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|Hunt the Mage

6th|
+6|
+5|
+2|
+5|Means to an End (Minor)

7th|
+7|
+5|
+2|
+5|Means to an End (Moderate)

8th|
+8|
+6|
+2|
+6|Means to an End (Major)

9th|
+9|
+6|
+3|
+6|Means to an End (Mighty)

10th|
+10|
+7|
+3|
+7|Spellslayer[/table]

Class Features:

Ritual of the Blade: This is a ritual performed by all potential Spellslayers. To perform this, they require 500gp worth of special materials (incense, candles, etc) and must possess a slashing melee weapon with the Cold Iron property that has an enhancement bonus of at least +1.

By performing this ritual, you bind your soul to the blade involved, making it as much a part of yourself as an arm or a leg. The blade's hardness and hit points are doubled. It can now be used to channel all of your class abilities, as described below. Additionally, when used to attack an opponent with no magical, psionic or otherwise supernatural abilities its enhancement bonus is effectively reduced by 1 (minimum 0).

If your bonded blade is broken or otherwise destroyed, you must repeat this ritual to create a new focus for your class abilities. This requires a further 500gp worth of special materials and a new slashing melee weapon.

This ritual takes 24 hours of uninterrupted concentration to perform.

Magebane: Infused with a portion of your soul, your blade becomes particularly powerful against those of a magical nature. Your bonded weapon gains the Magebane (Complete Arcane) property as long as it is held by you.

Reflective Blade: (Ex) As you advance as a Spellslayer, you learn to use the reflective properties of your Cold Iron blade as a mirror for certain spells. Starting at 1st level, as long as your bonded weapon is held by you, you may choose to, as an immediate action, reflect any spell targeted at you that requires a ranged touch attack. To do so you must make an opposed attack roll (BAB + Cha + Size) and beat their result. Any spell reflected this way is done so as if by a Spell Turning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellTurning.htm) spell. You may reflect any spell of a level up to or equal to your Spellslayer level -1.

Additionally, this ability confers Spell Resistance 15 + your ECL.

Magic is Magic: All magic is the same in the eyes of a Spellslayer. Starting at 2nd level, you may use a Spellcraft check to identify any spell, power or invocation. Additionally, you may use a Knowledge (Arcana) check in place of any Knowledge (Psionics) or Knowledge (The Planes) check.

Weapon of the Enemy: (Ex) As your mastery of your bonded weapon increases, you learn to store the arcane energies of certain spells to be utilized later. Your bonded weapon gains an ability similar to that of a Spell Storing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#spellStoring) weapon. Each time a spell is reflected through your Reflective Blade class feature, you may instead choose to store it. You may have a maximum number of spell levels stored equal to twice your Spellslayer level. A stored spell can be released later either as part of a successful attack or entirely seperately.

If released as an attack, the spell must be targetted and must be used against the victim of your attack. It is cast with a caster level either equal to that of the original caster or equal to your ECL. Releasing a spell in this way is done as a swift action following a successful attack.

If released seperately, the spell can be of any type and have any target. It is cast with a caster level either equal to that of the original caster or equal to your ECL. Releasing a spell in this way takes an action appropriate to the spell.

Share the Power: (Su) The largest problem a blade-wielder faces is the utility of spellcasters. While he is stuck repeatedly hitting them with a sword, they can become dragons or shift to other realities with a few seconds thought. The Spellslayers have countered this. Starting at 5th level, you may choose to be affected by any spell cast within 5ft/class level with either the [Teleportation] descriptor or one that grants additional movement or actions (such as Haste, Celerity or Time Stop). The maximum level of spells you can be affected by is equal to your Spellslayer level -1.

Hunt the Mage: (Su) As you hone your abilities, you become more attuned to the use of magic nearby. Starting at 5th level, you gain the benefit of a permanent Detect Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm) effect. You ignore miss chances due to spells and can pinpoint which mirror image is the real person. Additionally, your Reflective Blade class feature becomes usable as a free action once per encounter.

Means to an End: (Sp) As you advance as a Spellslayer, you learn how to manipulate the magics of others to benefit yourself. Starting at 6th level, you become able to convert spell levels stored by your Weapon of the Enemy class feature into more useful spells. You can convert the spell levels on a 1:1 basis and gain access to more spells as you advance in level, as shown below.

For example, a 6th level Spellslayer could store two Scorching Ray spells for a total of 4 levels. They could then release this stored energy in the form of a Fly spell, having 1 spell level remaining.

{table=head]Spell|Requires
Fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm)|Minor
Cure Serious Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureSeriousWounds.htm)|Minor
Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm)|Minor
Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm)|Moderate
Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm)|Moderate
Dispel Magic, Greater (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagicGreater.htm)|Moderate
Heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heal.htm)|Major
Teleport, Greater (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm)|Major
Plane Shift (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm)|Major
Dimensional Lock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalLock.htm)|Mighty
Discern Location (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLocation.htm)|Mighty
Plane Shift, Greater|Mighty
[/table]

Spellslayer: (Su) Having reached the pinnacle of excellence in hunting spellcasters, you become the embodiment of anti-magic. You gain the benefit of a permanent Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm) effect and a permanent True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm) effect. Additionally, you gain one of the following features, chosen at the time of gaining your 10th level of Spellslayer. These choices can only be changed through use of a Wish, Miracle or Reality Revision.


Perfection of Anti-Magic: You gain the benefit of a permanent, sculpted Antimagic Field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm). You are not affected by this field, nor are any items or objects you are holding. It extends out to 10ft from your location in all directions.

Anti-Magic Strike: Once per round, following a successful attack against an opponent, you may cause that opponent to lose the use of a single level of spells, powers or invocations for a number of rounds equal to your charisma modifier. The level of spells, powers or invocations lost is randomly determined.

Magic Bane: Any enemy attempting to cast a spell, manifest a power or use an invocation within 50ft of you must make a concentration check with a DC equal to 10 + HD + your Charisma modifier or the spell, power or invocation fails. Any spell, power or invocation that fails due to this ability may be immediately absorbed through the Share the Power class feature as if it had been successfully cast. You can identify the spell, power or invocation without making a Spellcraft check.

Jane_Smith
2010-09-11, 06:31 PM
Helllll no. Just no. : / Passive, constant anti-magic field and retain all magical items/etc you possess and your own spells (something not even mages can do), capable of using spells whenever your supposedly against them thus going against your entire training/code/etc, and, just to top it off, this class is completely overpowered no matter how you spin it.

This is just wrong and shouldnt see the light of day. Id kill it off in any game i found one. >.> ally or not.

Niezck
2010-09-11, 06:32 PM
Helllll no. Just no. : /

Thanks for the insightful comment there. :smallfrown:

Too strong? I figured it probably would be, but then it's like nearly impossible to properly counter a caster. *Shrug*

Jane_Smith
2010-09-11, 07:02 PM
Well this counters demi-gods. Yes, its op. Its very op. ^ I filled out my first comment, read above. As a 'im sick of hearing "nerf caster" whiners' type of person and more of a 'just fix the op spells' type of person, i find your class an insult to every single 'average joe' style wizard out their that -isnt- trying to completely rape time and space - not to mention nearly completely impossible to fight as a caster.

No class, or prc, peroid, should ever be able to completely say 'hey im immune to everything this other class can do'. Try using wizards/etc as an example? "Amg fighters cant get past walls of force/etc though!" Then just fix the spells. They are the issue, not the classes.

Oh, and to top it off, full bab progression, d10 hit dice, 2 good saves, 4+ int bonus skill saves a level, more class skills then a fighter/etc, and those kinda class features? It reeks of god-mode.

Niezck
2010-09-11, 07:41 PM
Hmm, point taken. I may have gotten a little carried away ...

I'll get to fixing it sometime tomorrow, when I'm not so tired. Or maybe just scrap it entirely and start over. *Shrug*

I do love the concept I had in mind though. The whole deflecting spells with a sword thing.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-09-11, 11:34 PM
I'm going to have to disagree with Jane_Smith on this one. It's not particularly overpowered at all except for, possibly, one or two features that need to be toned down but not necessarily scrapped.

Ritual of the Blade: This effectively gives your weapon the benefits of one of the various "make materials harder" spells and actually weakens it against mundane types.

Magebane: A free minor weapon property for a bit more damage against casters; nice, but not amazing.

Reflective Blade: Reflecting a targeted spell that allows SR as an immediate action should be fine, as (A) plenty of harmful spells don't allow SR, (B) you don't gain any Evasion-esque defenses against area spells, so enemies have those options as well, and (B) it's likely that you'll face multiple opponents or opponents who cast multiple spells per round, so it isn't a one-stop caster-shutdown machine. I would change it to spells requiring a touch attack, though, regardless of SR (which incidentally lets you reflect a blaster's favorites, the orb line of spells), and would require an opposed attack roll, so that (A) it's not automatic, as it's only the 1st level ability, and (B) it makes sense thematically.

Magic is Magic: The first benefit is the way things should work under transparency anyway, and the second benefit saves you a skill point per level on Knowledge: Planes.

Weapon of the Enemy: This is sort of an upgraded version of the Spellthief's spell-stealing ability, done reactively instead of actively but otherwise on par. Given that you can acquire the spellthief's ability at 1st level, getting this at 3rd isn't too over-the-top.

Share the Power: There's an epic feat that does this for one spell per feat, and it's one of the few epic feats worth the slot. I would require either a readied action or immediate action to activate this and limit this to preclude Personal-only spells--not necessarily because stealing them is too mean to the mage, but because ways to transfer Personal spells are few and far between, and this could be a possible exploit for grabbing buffs from the party caster. You might also consider limiting the duration to 1 round/level on longer-duration spells and cut the max level to (level/2) instead of (level-1), but that's up to you.

Hunt the Mage: The first benefit is fine; Pierce Magical Concealment is the kind of feat he'd pick up anyway. Spell reflection as a free action, I'm not so sure about. There's a reason 3.5 switched from "free action out of turn once per round" to "immediate actions"--they're supposed to be mutually exclusive, and being able to reflect a spell and do something else is a bit much. I'd instead grant the ability to use it as a free action 1/encounter or similar.

Means to an End: This works, I suppose, and getting things like this is necessary, but granting SLAs seems out of character for the class, even in a "fight fire with fire" situation. I'll think on it.

Perfection of Anti-Magic: I'd limit it to 10 feet and not allow excluding people. Shaping AMFs is already a pretty good trick, and being able to exclude allied casters would be a bit too good--even the archmage can only make a single hole in the field.

Anti-Magic Strike: This doesn't quite make sense, as your levels in a casting class don't translate directly to magical power; it would make more sense if it did more damage to sorcerers, less to wizards and archivists, etc. Instead, I would deal damage based on the number of spell levels of effects currently active--it makes this less of a metagame ability, deals more damage to the casters you need to hurt most, and already has some precedent.

Magic Bane: Essentially, you're making AoOs to interrupt casting from range and then absorbing lost spells. Looks good to me.

Niezck
2010-09-12, 04:16 AM
Okay, so ...

Make the reflection only function for ranged touch and require an opposed attack roll. Maybe give SR swell to compensate? 10 + ECL?

I was originally gonna make share the power only work for teleportation and movement spells, so maybe that?

Ill fix up the AMF and the free action thing.

As for the SLAs - stuff like that is pretty much required if you're gonna fight casters effectively, so I'm not too sure how to remedy it. Suggestions?

I can't figure a way to make antimagic strike hurt psions, warlocks etc equally without basing ot on class levels. Any ideas?

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-09-12, 04:35 AM
Make the reflection only function for ranged touch and require an opposed attack roll. Maybe give SR swell to compensate? 10 + ECL?

15+ECL would probably be better; Arcane Mastery and other CL boosters make 10 too easy to beat.


I was originally gonna make share the power only work for teleportation and movement spells, so maybe that?

That and action-boosters like haste, celerity, etc. should work nicely.


As for the SLAs - stuff like that is pretty much required if you're gonna fight casters effectively, so I'm not too sure how to remedy it. Suggestions?

I know, it's just incongruous for this to be a basically pure anti-mage for 5 levels and then suddenly gain a bunch of SLAs in the next 5 levels. Maybe instead of being able to use those SLAs, he can swap out any Weapon of the Enemy spell levels to cast those spells instead, or choose to be affected by one of those when he'd be affected by a Share the Power spell? That way it's flavored more as twisting enemy magic to his own benefit rather than using magic himself.


I can't figure a way to make antimagic strike hurt psions, warlocks etc equally without basing ot on class levels. Any ideas?

Everything has levels--1d6 damage per spell/power level works on spells and powers, and all invocations have equivalent spell levels as well. You might do less damage overall to warlocks/DFAs because they tend to cap out at 6th-/7th-level equivalent, but conversely having abilities at-will means they're pretty much guaranteed to have 3-4 buffs up 24/7.

Niezck
2010-09-12, 04:45 AM
15+ECL would probably be better; Arcane Mastery and other CL boosters make 10 too easy to beat.



That and action-boosters like haste, celerity, etc. should work nicely.



I know, it's just incongruous for this to be a basically pure anti-mage for 5 levels and then suddenly gain a bunch of SLAs in the next 5 levels. Maybe instead of being able to use those SLAs, he can swap out any Weapon of the Enemy spell levels to cast those spells instead, or choose to be affected by one of those when he'd be affected by a Share the Power spell? That way it's flavored more as twisting enemy magic to his own benefit rather than using magic himself.



Everything has levels--1d6 damage per spell/power level works on spells and powers, and all invocations have equivalent spell levels as well. You might do less damage overall to warlocks/DFAs because they tend to cap out at 6th-/7th-level equivalent, but conversely having abilities at-will means they're pretty much guaranteed to have 3-4 buffs up 24/7.

15 sounds good.

The replacing stored spell levels / swapping stolen spells idea could worm quite well. Sounds good to me. On a 1:1 spell level basis, or better/worse?

And perhaps 1d6 per level of the highest spell/power/invocation available? Or even something that stops them using 1 randomly determined spell/power/invocation for X rounds?

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-09-12, 04:57 AM
15 sounds good.

The replacing stored spell levels / swapping stolen spells idea could worm quite well. Sounds good to me. On a 1:1 spell level basis, or better/worse?

I'd say for Share the Power make it a 1:1 ratio, since they can't pick what spell gets used against them. 1+level or 3+level spell levels to cast one of them with stored spell levels might work; scaling it to be [level] for minor, [level+1] for moderate, etc. could work too.


And perhaps 1d6 per level of the highest spell/power/invocation available? Or even something that stops them using 1 randomly determined spell/power/invocation for X rounds?

Stopping them from using spells would be a nice ability, and one that isn't all that prevalent in existing material.

Random idea: Once per round, when you successfully hit an opponent, roll XdY such that you get a range equal to the spell/power/invocation levels they can use (1d4 if they can cast 4th level spells, 1d8 reroll 8s if they can cast 7th level, etc.). They can't cast/manifest spells/powers/invocations of the specified level for [Cha mod] rounds.

137ben
2010-09-12, 07:24 AM
Great idea!

For weapon of the enemy, it seems a bit strange that a stored 9th level spell would take up the same space as a stored 0th level spell. Perhaps this should be adjusted to take spell level into account?

Niezck
2010-09-12, 02:59 PM
Okay, updated with all suggestions. :smallsmile:

@137ben: It does work off of spell levels. You can only store a maximum number of spell levels, based on your class level, so a level 0 spell would count as half a level, whereas a level 9 spell would count as 9 levels. I think that's what you meant?

Tetrasodium
2010-09-13, 11:13 AM
this seems absurdly powerful, it shouldn't be super antimage plus lots of SLA's including practical spellthief combined with occult slayer with no downsides.

Milskidasith
2010-09-13, 11:38 AM
The shaped AMF doesn't actually prevent you from being hit by spells; I'm not sure if that was the intent or not, but it definitely shouldn't. Shaped AMFs are pretty cheesy anyway.

Niezck
2010-09-13, 11:59 AM
this seems absurdly powerful, it shouldn't be super antimage plus lots of SLA's including practical spellthief combined with occult slayer with no downsides.

It's not all that amazing if you actually read through and compare it to equivalent level abilities. Also, it doesn't get SLAs.


The shaped AMF doesn't actually prevent you from being hit by spells; I'm not sure if that was the intent or not, but it definitely shouldn't. Shaped AMFs are pretty cheesy anyway.

I know. Preventing that would essentially be "No spells ever affect me" which is pretty brutal. As it is, it basically lets a character get in melee range without the risk of a quick dimension door or whatever ending the combat.

Tetrasodium
2010-09-13, 03:32 PM
It's not all that amazing if you actually read through and compare it to equivalent level abilities. Also, it doesn't get SLAs.

- D10 hit die
- two good saves
- no real loss for losing your sword (lookup kensai or occult slayer or something and see what -happens when they lose it)
nice spell resistance
- You get to use a full BaB class BaB+Cha+size* vrs a poor BaB+dex+size to reflect, store and use the spellsword's limited use per day channel spell** with the spell unlimited times per day, or simply convert into a buff (*wouldn't want to make this class have to worry about pumping more than charisma would we? **Even the caster level gets a bump if you steal the spell from a lower level caster or you steal it from a higher level caster, no downside or loss of caster level whatsoever ever)
- Copy a selection of spells cast near you... just because we wouldn't want the snowflake to ever have his prey escape. No need to make any kind of check or use any kind of resource.
- You get to make knowledge psionics and knowledge the planes checks without actually having to spend points on them... knowledge psionics almost barely makes sense if you are in a campaign treating psionics as magic, knowledge the planes doesn't make any sense at all.
- starts out using reflective blade as an immediate action... then changes to a free action once per encounter... This is worse than immediate action and makes very little sense.
- Cast basically every "nuh-uh" spell or just heal yourself.
- permanent detect magic, permanent ignore miss chance caused by spells that grant it, immune to spells like mirror image, mindblank, permanent true seeing & either permanent antimagic field that doesn't harm your equipment or buffs but makes sure anyone near you has none, stripping away the ability to cast a level of spells with duration based on your charisma... of which many of the other abilities are based on..., or force concentration checks from enemies only if they are within 50m

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-09-13, 04:53 PM
Again, this is not nearly as good as it's being made out to be. Powerful, yes; overpowered, no.


- D10 hit die
- two good saves

Par for the course.


- no real loss for losing your sword (lookup kensai or occult slayer or something and see what -happens when they lose it)

Occult slayer has to practice 1 day/level or lose 1d6 damage; this has to pay 500gp and meditate for a day to use its class features.


nice spell resistance

Worth a mid-level magic item at most. SR isn't all it's cracked up to be.


- You get to use a full BaB class BaB+Cha+size* vrs a poor BaB+dex+size to reflect, store and use the spellsword's limited use per day channel spell** with the spell unlimited times per day, or simply convert into a buff (*wouldn't want to make this class have to worry about pumping more than charisma would we? **Even the caster level gets a bump if you steal the spell from a lower level caster or you steal it from a higher level caster, no downside or loss of caster level whatsoever ever)

The difference in BAB is +10 at most; Cha isn't a main stat for this class, while casters focusing on ranged attacks will have a fairly good Dex. What that basically works out to is the spellslayer having to roll an 8-12 or so, and a 50/50 chance to reflect spells requiring ranged touch attacks isn't all that bad.


- Copy a selection of spells cast near you... just because we wouldn't want the snowflake to ever have his prey escape. No need to make any kind of check or use any kind of resource.

Teleportation spells let casters avoid attackers, action-advantage spells let casters nova or at least gain a huge advantage on their enemies. A mage slayer class must be able to either prevent casters from using them or use them itself.


- You get to make knowledge psionics and knowledge the planes checks without actually having to spend points on them... knowledge psionics almost barely makes sense if you are in a campaign treating psionics as magic, knowledge the planes doesn't make any sense at all.

Knowledge: Planes makes sense in that anyone using Divination, Abjuration, or Conjuration is likely to study the planes to study, protect against, or summon extraplanar creatures. It's a minor perk, nothing more.


- starts out using reflective blade as an immediate action... then changes to a free action once per encounter... This is worse than immediate action and makes very little sense.

Compare to counterspelling. If you're not counterspelling as an immediate action, it's not worth your time, period; using up your actions to possibly counter something your opponent might do is pointless. You can get a free-action counterspell with a 3rd-level spell, battlemagic perception. Immediate-action countering with a few free-action counters per day is fine by comparison. Now, if you don't think they should be able to counter it at all, that's another issue, but that's a fairly common anti-mage feature.


- Cast basically every "nuh-uh" spell or just heal yourself.

...which, again, an anti-mage needs to be able to do; he might as well be able to use teleport instead of buying a cape of the mountebank, or be able to use dimensional lock instead of buying an anchoring weapon.


- permanent detect magic

Casters can get permanent arcane sight; why can't he have permanent detect magic?


permanent ignore miss chance caused by spells that grant it, immune to spells like mirror image

That's a single feat, Pierce Magical Concealment.


mindblank, permanent true seeing

The Slayer gets a selective mind blank at 9th level, which is better than this; permanent true seeing is available for 75K, courtesy of the Hathran mask of true seeing in UE.


& either permanent antimagic field that doesn't harm your equipment or buffs but makes sure anyone near you has none, stripping away the ability to cast a level of spells with duration based on your charisma... of which many of the other abilities are based on..., or force concentration checks from enemies only if they are within 50m

This is the only exceptionally powerful and unique ability in the capstone, and considering that the archmage "AMF donut" trick is a fairly obvious/common tactic for casters and torcs of AMF are almost standard gear for mage slayers, this ability is a logical progression of that.

Tetrasodium
2010-09-13, 06:24 PM
Worth a mid-level magic item at most. SR isn't all it's cracked up to be.
Spell resistance items tend to be spell resistance X and typically take a slot that could otherwise be used for something else. This does not use a slot and grows as you level. Drow get spell resist 11+class level, this gets 15+class level.


The difference in BAB is +10 at most; Cha isn't a main stat for this class, while casters focusing on ranged attacks will have a fairly good Dex. What that basically works out to is the spellslayer having to roll an 8-12 or so, and a 50/50 chance to reflect spells requiring ranged touch attacks isn't all that bad.
The problem is that everything is that this class is designed with abilities to counter "casters focused on X", it's an iwin button against any sort of average caster. Maybe your DM throws hyper specialized foes at your group all the time, somehow I don't think that's the norm though.


Teleportation spells let casters avoid attackers, action-advantage spells let casters nova or at least gain a huge advantage on their enemies. A mage slayer class must be able to either prevent casters from using them or use them itself.
Dimensional lock prevents teleportation, you don't need to prevent *and* get it. The point of the class appears to to kill mages, not copy them. Give them a 20-40ft range dimensional lock aura and a time-stream stability aura they can flip between as a swift action or something if you think they should be able to counter them.

Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends.
Seriously... what's he even going to do with timestop (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Time_Stop) when he copies it, suffer from acid fog and incendiary cloud for 1d4+1 rounds? This class really has no business with getting timestop IMO, consider it a weakness you have to deal with.


Knowledge: Planes makes sense in that anyone using Divination, Abjuration, or Conjuration is likely to study the planes to study, protect against, or summon extraplanar creatures. It's a minor perk, nothing more.
So give it as a class skill, there is no reason to get a 2:1 investment in skill points.




Compare to counterspelling. If you're not counterspelling as an immediate action, it's not worth your time, period; using up your actions to possibly counter something your opponent might do is pointless. You can get a free-action counterspell with a 3rd-level spell, battlemagic perception. Immediate-action countering with a few free-action counters per day is fine by comparison. Now, if you don't think they should be able to counter it at all, that's another issue, but that's a fairly common anti-mage feature.
You have this class setup to counterspell, reflect, or use as charge for a completely different spell half the spells coming at you from a caster optimized for that type of spell at no cost (immediate action), and a bunch of free "no you don't" and "ooh I get a free spell thanks" abilities 100% of the time.


...which, again, an anti-mage needs to be able to do; he might as well be able to use teleport instead of buying a cape of the mountebank, or be able to use dimensional lock instead of buying an anchoring weapon.
You don't need to use and counter it for free. This class has no reason to be casting spells, let alone getting to cast them for free.


Casters can get permanent arcane sight; why can't he have permanent detect magic?
There's nothing wrong with detect magic, it's just one more free perk.




That's a single feat, Pierce Magical Concealment.
So give the feat unless there is some compelling reason not to, the -4 caster level that goes with it is perfectly suited to this class.



The Slayer gets a selective mind blank at 9th level, which is better than this; permanent true seeing is available for 75K, courtesy of the Hathran mask of true seeing in UE.
The mask in question takes up an item slot, this does not. The occult slayer has negatives that go with it's "haha silly mage!" abilities




This is the only exceptionally powerful and unique ability in the capstone, and considering that the archmage "AMF donut" trick is a fairly obvious/common tactic for casters and torcs of AMF are almost standard gear for mage slayers, this ability is a logical progression of that.
The torc of AMF affects the wearer's buffs and equipment too. The archmage is using sculpt spell and... an actual spell that takes a spell slot/scroll to cast.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-09-13, 07:52 PM
Spell resistance items tend to be spell resistance X and typically take a slot that could otherwise be used for something else. This does not use a slot and grows as you level. Drow get spell resist 11+class level, this gets 15+class level.

"It would otherwise take a slot" isn't a good argument against a class ability. If this class didn't give SR, it'd give a different ability instead, and you could still get SR some other way. Also, a SR around 10+ECL is far too weak, since CL boosts are abundant and Arcane Mastery allows taking 10 on CL checks.


The problem is that everything is that this class is designed with abilities to counter "casters focused on X", it's an iwin button against any sort of average caster. Maybe your DM throws hyper specialized foes at your group all the time, somehow I don't think that's the norm though.

An "I win" button against focused casters? Not really. Against one-trick ponies, sure. The metamagic-abusing orb builds, the scry-n-die builds, all those sorts get shut down by the spellslayer, and that's how it should be. An average wizard whose scorching ray is deflected thinks "Ow, that hurt, let me try something else," not "Oh my gods, I'm completely useless now!"


Dimensional lock prevents teleportation, you don't need to prevent *and* get it. The point of the class appears to to kill mages, not copy them. Give them a 20-40ft range dimensional lock aura and a time-stream stability aura they can flip between as a swift action or something if you think they should be able to counter them.

1) Would you rather stop a caster from teleporting away, in which case he moves out of range and teleports away again, or would you rather follow him and find his sanctum or wherever else he felt safe enough to teleport to?

2) If you have to walk to get to a caster, he'll probably see you coming, and if you give a prepared caster time to prepare, you're probably screwed. Teleportation has at least a chance of getting the drop on the enemy.


Seriously... what's he even going to do with timestop (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Time_Stop) when he copies it, suffer from acid fog and incendiary cloud for 1d4+1 rounds? This class really has no business with getting timestop IMO, consider it a weakness you have to deal with.

He's going to act during the timestop, just like Spell Stowaway gives you. Time stop isn't just "a weakness you have to deal with" it's a common high-level tactic that you must be able to deal with almost every single time you face a high-level arcanist.


So give it as a class skill, there is no reason to get a 2:1 investment in skill points.

The entire 2nd level feature is giving you free ranks in 2 skills. If it were to instead give 2 more skill points per level and make those class skills, what would you put in its place?


You have this class setup to counterspell, reflect, or use as charge for a completely different spell half the spells coming at you from a caster optimized for that type of spell at no cost (immediate action), and a bunch of free "no you don't" and "ooh I get a free spell thanks" abilities 100% of the time.

And...? An archmage with Mastery of Counterspelling and the two counterspell feats can do that on top of being a full caster.

So he can counter targeted spells requiring attack rolls. That's it. Fireballs get through fine. Magic missiles get through just fine. Hold person gets through just fine. Just looking at the PHB, there are a grand total of 11 ray spells, and probably a few other RTA spells, but hell, there are almost twice as many cone area spells as ray spells alone.


You don't need to use and counter it for free. This class has no reason to be casting spells, let alone getting to cast them for free.

It's that or pick up items that do the same. Better to get it from a class than something an enemy mage can dispel, disjoin, or disarm.


There's nothing wrong with detect magic, it's just one more free perk.

Indeed. And a minor perk, at that.


The mask in question takes up an item slot, this does not. The occult slayer has negatives that go with it's "haha silly mage!" abilities.

The occult slayer also utterly fails to slay any occult character whatsoever with a modicum of power and skill. +1d6 damage to casters? Spell turning twice per day? A whole +3 on saves? A nondetection effect you barely have to roll to overcome?

If you're going to kill a caster, either play another caster or make a PrC than can actually give a martial character a reasonable chance of doing so. Until a PrC can do a better job of finding, countering, and killing a caster than a vanilla wizard or cleric, there's no reason to start adding drawbacks.


The torc of AMF affects the wearer's buffs and equipment too. The archmage is using sculpt spell and... an actual spell that takes a spell slot/scroll to cast.

The archmage can spend a single 6th level slot for that antimagic field that costs mundane characters 25K, whoop-de-do. This is the capstone, it's supposed to be powerful. This character has invested 10 levels in this class to pick it up, while a full caster can do the same thing with 1 level and a few spell slots.

Tetrasodium
2010-09-13, 09:10 PM
"It would otherwise take a slot" isn't a good argument against a class ability. If this class didn't give SR, it'd give a different ability instead, and you could still get SR some other way. Also, a SR around 10+ECL is far too weak, since CL boosts are abundant and Arcane Mastery allows taking 10 on CL checks.
Right... it's designed to counter the caster who focus's on boosting caster level just like all the other abilities are designed to counter the caster who focus's on that particular aspect. The entire class is designed to counter X aspect of casters who focus on that particular aspect and handwaived away with the idea that casters could specialize in something else even though it's pretty well covered too.




An "I win" button against focused casters? Not really. Against one-trick ponies, sure. The metamagic-abusing orb builds, the scry-n-die builds, all those sorts get shut down by the spellslayer, and that's how it should be. An average wizard whose scorching ray is deflected thinks "Ow, that hurt, let me try something else," not "Oh my gods, I'm completely useless now!"
Disintegrate and anything else that requires a touch attack gets reflected or channeled more than half the time against an average caster. Anything mind affecting you are immune to. Polymorph spells you can copy.. for free. Teleport you can block or copy. Flying away?... nope self cast and your AMF will drop the mage out of the sky anyways, hello fall damage. Wall of X?... nope, dispel. Give in and fireball/ligntingbolt/etc?... nope, heal/cure X wounds. Illusions?... nope no effect.


1) Would you rather stop a caster from teleporting away, in which case he moves out of range and teleports away again, or would you rather follow him and find his sanctum or wherever else he felt safe enough to teleport to?
I'm sure the caster would love to wear heavy armor or have more hitpoints if only they could still function with it. I'm sure a monk would love weapons and/or armor... if only they still could use their class stuff. So on and so forth. Would you rather is different from should you be able to.


2) If you have to walk to get to a caster, he'll probably see you coming, and if you give a prepared caster time to prepare, you're probably screwed. Teleportation has at least a chance of getting the drop on the enemy.
*gasp* you mean that there is a point where you have a risk of not automatically straight up wtfpwning a caster? You need to do more than point at a caster and say "lol I pluck off the helpless fly's wings"



He's going to act during the timestop, just like Spell Stowaway gives you. Time stop isn't just "a weakness you have to deal with" it's a common high-level tactic that you must be able to deal with almost every single time you face a high-level arcanist.

Then use the actual feat, making something custom that almost does the same thing and intends to do the same thing just means anything that specifically defeats or affects spellstowaway doesn't work.


The entire 2nd level feature is giving you free ranks in 2 skills. If it were to instead give 2 more skill points per level and make those class skills, what would you put in its place?
Making knowledge arcana checks against psionic powers is reasonably justifiable because of how psionics work when it comes to interacting with things that deal with magic. Knowledge of the planes just doesn't make sense though. You hitch-hike on the teleport with the justification you are following the mage (which shouldn't happen anyways since this class can block it), you go wherever the mage goes... you aren't tracking the mage to teleport back to town and do some shopping or to another plane just because you want to. Knowledge the planes just doesn't make sense and is doubly questionable considering all the uses for knowledge of the planes. If your so dead set on knowledge the planes and can't come up with a better reason than identifying spells, then restrict it only to the ability to make checks against a spell seen being cast and not creatures, the actual planes, etc.


And...? An archmage with Mastery of Counterspelling and the two counterspell feats can do that on top of being a full caster.
And you are doing it with heavy armor, the ability to use a shield D10 hitdie, full BaB, and all your other abilities... this goes back to my first point... this class is trying to compete with someone specialized in all of it's aspects. Levels in a PrC that takes three feats, two skills with 15 ranks, the ability to cast 7th level spells and 5th level from at least 5 schools, two more feats on top of the three it took to qualify for the class and an ability that burns a 7th level spellslot just to take... except yours is even better.


So he can counter targeted spells requiring attack rolls. That's it. Fireballs get through fine. Magic missiles get through just fine. Hold person gets through just fine. Just looking at the PHB, there are a grand total of 11 ray spells, and probably a few other RTA spells, but hell, there are almost twice as many cone area spells as ray spells alone.

Fireball?... Seriously?... magic missile?... lol... Hold person does nothing at all since it's mind affecting and this class becomes immune to mind affecting through it's permanent mind blank... Fear effects?... nope those are mind affecting too (page 309 of MM among other places). Web/entangle/solid fog/etc type spells?... oh you can cast freedom of movement.


It's that or pick up items that do the same. Better to get it from a class than something an enemy mage can dispel, disjoin, or disarm.
Yea... wouldn't want this precious snowflake to be at any risk ever, charge in with a masterwork sword and masterwork armor to be safe!


The occult slayer also utterly fails to slay any occult character whatsoever with a modicum of power and skill. +1d6 damage to casters? Spell turning twice per day? A whole +3 on saves? A nondetection effect you barely have to roll to overcome?
Twice per day is significant, it's enough to make a mage think twice after that first disintegrate bounces back while he's charging the mage going "lol no! eat it!". Every antimage/anti-arcane class there is tends to shun or have some penalty to trying to use spells and the like, this one has none and actively encourages it.


If you're going to kill a caster, either play another caster or make a PrC than can actually give a martial character a reasonable chance of doing so. Until a PrC can do a better job of finding, countering, and killing a caster than a vanilla wizard or cleric, there's no reason to start adding drawbacks.
There is a difference between killing and straight up demolishing with impunity while copying or healing away the few things you aren't immune to or able to bounce back at the caster.



The archmage can spend a single 6th level slot for that antimagic field that costs mundane characters 25K, whoop-de-do. This is the capstone, it's supposed to be powerful. This character has invested 10 levels in this class to pick it up, while a full caster can do the same thing with 1 level and a few spell slots.

And this character gained a whole lot of absolutely incredible abilities along those ten levels.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-09-13, 09:33 PM
Right... it's designed to counter the caster who focus's on boosting caster level just like all the other abilities are designed to counter the caster who focus's on that particular aspect. The entire class is designed to counter X aspect of casters who focus on that particular aspect and handwaived away with the idea that casters could specialize in something else even though it's pretty well covered too.

Picking up CL boosters or Spell Penetration or Arcane Mastery is not "focusing on boosting caster level" any more than wielding a weapon makes a fighter "focus on damage"--it's basic tactics. Next you'll tell me any wizard who learns both fireball and scorching ray is "focusing on fire spells" or any wizard that buys a headband of intellect is "focusing on spell DCs."


Disintegrate and anything else that requires a touch attack gets reflected or channeled more than half the time against an average caster. Anything mind affecting you are immune to. Polymorph spells you can copy.. for free. Teleport you can block or copy. Flying away?... nope self cast and your AMF will drop the mage out of the sky anyways, hello fall damage. Wall of X?... nope, dispel. Give in and fireball/ligntingbolt/etc?... nope, heal/cure X wounds. Illusions?... nope no effect.

Healing doesn't preemptively stop damage. Crowd control works fine. Existing buffs aren't affected. You can't copy non-movement non-action boosting spells. Wall of stone and wall of iron are instantaneous, and the other walls you aren't guaranteed to be able to dispel with your stunted CL. There are many more options than you're giving them credit for.


I'm sure the caster would love to wear heavy armor or have more hitpoints if only they could still function with it. I'm sure a monk would love weapons and/or armor... if only they still could use their class stuff. So on and so forth. Would you rather is different from should you be able to.

Possibly true...but then again, the wizard can give himself more armor and hit points with spells, monks can use monk weapons and get Wis to AC. When I say "would you rather" I don't mean what you, as an anti-mage, would like to have as part of your class, I mean which makes you more effective at finding, countering, and killing casters.


*gasp* you mean that there is a point where you have a risk of not automatically straight up wtfpwning a caster? You need to do more than point at a caster and say "lol I pluck off the helpless fly's wings"

Please. I don't care if you have levels in this, occult slayer, witch slayer, and witchborn binder all at once, if a caster knows you're coming a day ahead of time and is given the opportunity to prepare to fight you on the ground of his choosing, you are very likely to lose.


Then use the actual feat, making something custom that almost does the same thing and intends to do the same thing just means anything that specifically defeats or affects spellstowaway doesn't work.

The feat only affects one spell, so saying "You gain this feat, except it affects a bunch of spells" and saying "Here's what this ability does" require the same amount of explanation.


Making knowledge arcana checks against psionic powers is reasonably justifiable because of how psionics work when it comes to interacting with things that deal with magic. Knowledge of the planes just doesn't make sense though. You hitch-hike on the teleport with the justification you are following the mage (which shouldn't happen anyways since this class can block it), you go wherever the mage goes... you aren't tracking the mage to teleport back to town and do some shopping or to another plane just because you want to. Knowledge the planes just doesn't make sense and is doubly questionable considering all the uses for knowledge of the planes. If your so dead set on knowledge the planes and can't come up with a better reason than identifying spells, then restrict it only to the ability to make checks against a spell seen being cast and not creatures, the actual planes, etc.

I'm not so dead set on giving it to the spellslayer, I'm saying I don't see why a class ability worth a grand total of 2 skill points per level is so objectionable to you.


And you are doing it with heavy armor, the ability to use a shield D10 hitdie, full BaB, and all your other abilities... this goes back to my first point... this class is trying to compete with someone specialized in all of it's aspects. Levels in a PrC that takes three feats, two skills with 15 ranks, the ability to cast 7th level spells and 5th level from at least 5 schools, two more feats on top of the three it took to qualify for the class and an ability that burns a 7th level spellslot just to take... except yours is even better.

Once again, d10 HD and two good saves is not OMGWTF amazing. And a wizard can practically waltz into archmage with only the two Spell Focus feats being a speedbump to entry. Archmage is a very common route to take high-level casters, and it's one of the weaker options.


Fireball?... Seriously?... magic missile?... lol... Hold person does nothing at all since it's mind affecting and this class becomes immune to mind affecting through it's permanent mind blank... Fear effects?... nope those are mind affecting too (page 309 of MM among other places). Web/entangle/solid fog/etc type spells?... oh you can cast freedom of movement.

I was throwing out examples of spells that are weak but that nevertheless you can't block. If you want to get into strong spells, there are plenty of metamagic-able damage spells in all areas and damage types, there are baleful polymorph and flesh to stone and other transmutations you're not immune to, there are a variety of summoning/calling effects you can't do squat about, there are many SoDs (don't see death ward on that list, do you?), and more.


Yea... wouldn't want this precious snowflake to be at any risk ever, charge in with a masterwork sword and masterwork armor to be safe!

Precious snowflake or not, if your entire anti-mage repertoire can be shut down with a single chained dispel, you're not going to go far as a caster killer.


Twice per day is significant, it's enough to make a mage think twice after that first disintegrate bounces back while he's charging the mage going "lol no! eat it!". Every antimage/anti-arcane class there is tends to shun or have some penalty to trying to use spells and the like, this one has none and actively encourages it.

If you open combat with disintegrate, you have other problems. :smallwink: More seriously, that covers a grand total of two rounds of spells out of three or more expected encounters per day, just one if your enemy can cast quickened spells or otherwise use multiple spells per round--and, again, that's if they start off with a RTA spell.


And this character gained a whole lot of absolutely incredible abilities along those ten levels.

And just what do you think 10 levels of a full casting class gives you?

Tetrasodium
2010-09-13, 10:19 PM
Please. I don't care if you have levels in this, occult slayer, witch slayer, and witchborn binder all at once, if a caster knows you're coming a day ahead of time and is given the opportunity to prepare to fight you on the ground of his choosing, you are very likely to lose.
So this class is supposed to counter an optimized build, just about any optimized build in fact... and do so even when it was stupid enough to be known about with time enough for the mage to prepare the perfect spell load out between discovering your presence and getting in a fight with you?... Really?... you have mindblank... you can't scry on someone with mindblank, even if you use wish, without using the epic spell seed for scrying and use an epic spell. Divination effects that watch an area like arcane eye just don't see you.. You keep throwing out examples that this class isn't affected by. You talk about the threat of spells like fireball being a threat because you can't heal until after getting hit by it... it's a max of 10d6 damage!... are you going to suggest that mages should just have a maximized empowered twinned fireball for you next?



The feat only affects one spell, so saying "You gain this feat, except it affects a bunch of spells" and saying "Here's what this ability does" require the same amount of explanation.
So say as per the feat... it's like the other one for getting through miss chance, use the feat and accept the downside.


I'm not so dead set on giving it to the spellslayer, I'm saying I don't see why a class ability worth a grand total of 2 skill points per level is so objectionable to you.
There is no logical reason for this class to know the hazards on Xyz plane and if it's going to kill him just by going there simply because he discovers where the planeshift is going. There is no logical reason for this class to know about an extraplanar creature's abilities because it figured out the spell that called it, that goes double for because the character hitched a ride to another plane and is stuck there bumping into random encounters.



I was throwing out examples of spells that are weak but that nevertheless you can't block. If you want to get into strong spells, there are plenty of metamagic-able damage spells in all areas and damage types, there are baleful polymorph and flesh to stone and other transmutations you're not immune to, there are a variety of summoning/calling effects you can't do squat about, there are many SoDs (don't see death ward on that list, do you?), and more.
Summoning spells are typically a full round action to cast without a feat... hit the caster a few times or grapple/trip him while he's casting and interrupt him. Baleful polymorph and flesh to stone?... good thing you have good fort and will saves.


Precious snowflake or not, if your entire anti-mage repertoire can be shut down with a single chained dispel, you're not going to go far as a caster killer.
Oh my... so a mage who prepared dispel can put you on the same footing as your aura is about to put him on once you get in range?... booo hoooo hoooo.



If you open combat with disintegrate, you have other problems. :smallwink: More seriously, that covers a grand total of two rounds of spells out of three or more expected encounters per day, just one if your enemy can cast quickened spells or otherwise use multiple spells per round--and, again, that's if they start off with a RTA spell.
Right.... because this class has to be able to counter every fringe case.




And just what do you think 10 levels of a full casting class gives you

Since this was in reference to such a powerful choice of capstone abilities combined with all the other stuff, look at some of the other classes and prestige classes. Those with lots of powerful nice stuff along the way tend to have slightly less powerful capstone abilities than those who get less/not as powerful nice stuff along the way with a handful of exceptions. With the exception of a freebie, everything this class gets is nice.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-09-14, 12:19 AM
So this class is supposed to counter an optimized build, just about any optimized build in fact... and do so even when it was stupid enough to be known about with time enough for the mage to prepare the perfect spell load out between discovering your presence and getting in a fight with you?... Really?

No, it's not. That's the point. It can't shut down any and every caster build as you claim.


... you have mindblank... you can't scry on someone with mindblank, even if you use wish, without using the epic spell seed for scrying and use an epic spell. Divination effects that watch an area like arcane eye just don't see you..

I was originally referring to a caster knowing you're coming because you try and fail to kill him, so no scrying is necessary. Otherwise, non-targeted non-area divinations like contact other plane et al. work fine, as would metafaculty for psionicists.


You keep throwing out examples that this class isn't affected by. You talk about the threat of spells like fireball being a threat because you can't heal until after getting hit by it... it's a max of 10d6 damage!... are you going to suggest that mages should just have a maximized empowered twinned fireball for you next?

If you had read my note in the last post, you'd see that I said "I was throwing out examples of spells that are weak but that nevertheless you can't block." No, you don't care about a fireball...but this ability still can't block it. No, you can't be affected by hold person...but this ability still can't block it. There are many, many other kinds of spells that don't fall into the category of "spells requiring ranged touch attacks," yet you seem to believe that being able to counter those once per round makes you immune to wizards.


There is no logical reason for this class to know the hazards on Xyz plane and if it's going to kill him just by going there simply because he discovers where the planeshift is going. There is no logical reason for this class to know about an extraplanar creature's abilities because it figured out the spell that called it, that goes double for because the character hitched a ride to another plane and is stuck there bumping into random encounters.

You don't mystically know about planes and creatures because you are affected by/come into contact with them, you study those planes and creatures because when you're going after casters you are extremely likely to be affected by/come into contact with them! That's why it's a constant class feature as opposed to something like "When you see a mage summon a creature, you may make a Knowledge (Arcana) check..." or whatever.


Summoning spells are typically a full round action to cast without a feat... hit the caster a few times or grapple/trip him while he's casting and interrupt him. Baleful polymorph and flesh to stone?... good thing you have good fort and will saves.

If you can get within range of the wizard, you can hit/grapple/otherwise mess with the caster, yes. Good saves won't help you all of the time; you have three scores to boost to keep your saves up and casters only have one.


Oh my... so a mage who prepared dispel can put you on the same footing as your aura is about to put him on once you get in range?... booo hoooo hoooo.

1) Dispel magic isn't nearly as uncommon as you think. Wizards will avoid banning abjuration for that spell alone.

2) You can have scrolls, wands, staffs...items usually have low CL, so a dispel from an item is serviceable most of the time.

3) Again, you have to get in range first.

4) There are several ways to grab spells on the fly or reprepare cast spells.


Right.... because this class has to be able to counter every fringe case.

No, but the occult slayer would have to be able to counter more than twice per frikkin' day to do any good.

Tetrasodium
2010-09-14, 09:20 AM
No, it's not. That's the point. It can't shut down any and every caster build as you claim.

I was originally referring to a caster knowing you're coming because you try and fail to kill him, so no scrying is necessary. Otherwise, non-targeted non-area divinations like contact other plane et al. work fine, as would metafaculty for psionicists.

If you had read my note in the last post, you'd see that I said "I was throwing out examples of spells that are weak but that nevertheless you can't block." No, you don't care about a fireball...but this ability still can't block it. No, you can't be affected by hold person...but this ability still can't block it. There are many, many other kinds of spells that don't fall into the category of "spells requiring ranged touch attacks," yet you seem to believe that being able to counter those once per round makes you immune to wizards.
Near as I can tell, your argument seems to be "X class skill isn't overpowered because X doesn't block P Z & Q spells even though Y or Z class skill does so don't try to look at the entire thing as a whole" combined with "it's not overpowered because if you try and fail to kill a mage with average spell loadouts because you are immune to scrying and a bunch of other stuff, he would know you are coming and prepare perfect spells which you have to be able to have a strong chance of countering and/or nullifying all by yourself... army of one and all that jazzz!".


You don't mystically know about planes and creatures because you are affected by/come into contact with them, you study those planes and creatures because when you're going after casters you are extremely likely to be affected by/come into contact with them! That's why it's a constant class feature as opposed to something like "When you see a mage summon a creature, you may make a Knowledge (Arcana) check..." or whatever.
Then give it as a class skill like paladins & crusaders have knowledge religion as a class skill. The only thing you are doing is changing the 4+int skill/level to 6+int skill/level for this class. 4+int skill/level is already higher than it should be anyways... paladin 2+int, cleric 2+int, fighter 2+int, etc. 4+int is usually reserved for skill monkey type classes, which this is not. 6+int is usually reserved for classes where being a skill monkey is a significant aspect compared to the rest of what the class gives.



If you can get within range of the wizard, you can hit/grapple/otherwise mess with the caster, yes. Good saves won't help you all of the time; you have three scores to boost to keep your saves up and casters only have one.
You already claimed that this class is focused on killing casters who pump dex and specialize in rays as well as other casters, they have two by your own claim. Last I checked, there was no caster class that changed the stat that boosts each of your saves to be the same stat; there is a feat that will let you use con for your will save... and bmultiple melee classes/prc's that will let you add your charisma bonus to your saves, this class happens to be heavily charisma focused... :smallconfused: do you really think that a charisma focused class designed for killing casters isn't going to dip into at least one of those classes?


1) Dispel magic isn't nearly as uncommon as you think. Wizards will avoid banning abjuration for that spell alone.

2) You can have scrolls, wands, staffs...items usually have low CL, so a dispel from an item is serviceable most of the time.

Really? Your DM casts dispel magic every encounter with a mage of any type? Be happy he cast it, maybe now your mage friend's persistant effect isn't going to get dispelled. You do play with a group of other people right?... this one class doesn't need to do everything.


3) Again, you have to get in range first.
Don't storm a mage in an open field? Travel in a forest or do something else to provide some cover & line of sight breaks? Get something that raises your movement speed? Get a freaking bow or something for backup?


4) There are several ways to grab spells on the fly or reprepare cast spells.
Or this class could just cast fly itself.



No, but the occult slayer would have to be able to counter more than twice per frikkin' day to do any good.
You don't need to counter every counterable spell thrown your way. Not everything is going to use those spells, and not every encounter is going to be casting spells either. Even if you are in some strange campaign where every encounter your DM throws at you is an optimized mage who knew you were coming and had time to prepare (because you failed to kill him previously for some strange reason given this class's abilities), you still should find a point between not enough and unlimited times per day. There is also the fact that the occult slayer gains abilities beyond the counter and that this class's unlimited per day counter is even more powerful.... even more so when combined with some of the other stuff the class gets.

Niezck
2010-09-14, 09:33 AM
Okay, one thing has really been bugging me - this class does not cast spells. To "cast" one of its spells, it'd have to first be shot at by a caster a few times. And after the first RTA spell gets absorbed, no caster is gonna continually target it with RTA spells, so it essentially has to fill up a couple of spells levels per encounter.

Also, if you do store spells, you then don't reflect them. So if you want to do anything like flying, teleporting, etc, you lose the specialized spell turning.

That's a point unto itself too, you're comparing this to an ability that gives outright spell turning. This is spell turning that requires an opposed attack roll and only affects a small percentage of spells. Add to that the fact that if you turn it you lose one of your other major class features, and I'd say it's hardly overpowered.

The skill bonus is minor at best and useless at worst.

The argument has become so specific and fragmented I can't even figure out what you're mentioning in the latter part of your last post, so I'll wait until you post again to reply.

Tetrasodium
2010-09-14, 10:53 AM
Okay, one thing has really been bugging me - this class does not cast spells. To "cast" one of its spells, it'd have to first be shot at by a caster a few times. And after the first RTA spell gets absorbed, no caster is gonna continually target it with RTA spells, so it essentially has to fill up a couple of spells levels per encounter.

Also, if you do store spells, you then don't reflect them. So if you want to do anything like flying, teleporting, etc, you lose the specialized spell turning.

That's a point unto itself too, you're comparing this to an ability that gives outright spell turning. This is spell turning that requires an opposed attack roll and only affects a small percentage of spells. Add to that the fact that if you turn it you lose one of your other major class features, and I'd say it's hardly overpowered.

The skill bonus is minor at best and useless at worst.

The argument has become so specific and fragmented I can't even figure out what you're mentioning in the latter part of your last post, so I'll wait until you post again to reply.

By absorbing a couple ray spells from your party caster (or UMD skill monkey) out of combat, it's easy to have a charge. Heck, an eternal wand of scorching ray will get you 4 spell levels stored/day fairly cheaply forever with little risk due to low caster level if it hits you, just add another once you can store more than 4 levels. Use a third level spell on it instead for +6/day from the one wand. Since time isn't of the essence, just use a couple level 1 eternal wands for super cheap.

And yes... it is worth the effort when you consider this class can cast up to cure serious wounds & heal, planeshift, greater planeshift, teleport, greater teleport, discern location, dispel magic, greater dispel magic, etc... along with the singular "minor" fly spell. If you need more than the charges in your eternal wands will cover, a cheap second or third level wand can be converted into lots of cure serious/heal spells at higher levels.

This class has multiple abilities that block and reflect spells... it has no business casting them regardless of what source of power it needs to cast them.

Why does it get an extra 2 for free so it's essentially 6+int but without the "ummm..... no" hairs on the back of your DM's neck raising when he reads that particular line? It fights summoned monsters?... no, it fights mages. Give it knowledge of the planes as a class skill if you want it to be able to learn about them. Mages cast spells that interact with the planes and less skillpoints than this class, they still need to invest in it if they want to make knowledge the planes checks. Why does this class have 4+int skill points, either your focusing on fighting mages or focusing on typical fighter/ranger type skills... you shouldn't be getting both "just because" with an already powerful class. Remember "because it needs to fight mages" is not an answer, it's a cop-out and the equivalent of saying "I don't know" when the real answer is simply "I don't want to answer that question".


Lets say you start with 15 charisma and by level 20 read a +5 tome and grab a +6 item, that's +7 charisma bonus (like anyone won't take 2 levels of paladin or something to add charisma to saves with this class and give ample reason to bump charisma through the roof). One of the capstone choices simply strips away a level of spells for 7 rounds with no save... each round stripping away a different die roll of spell levels for 7 rounds, it's essentially giving you the ability to pluck the wings of a fly when you consider the all other abilities this class has. One of the others essentially means concentration checks are almost always going to fail within 50ft of you if some other source of damage or distraction is added during a given round. The other choice lets you simply turn off any buffs or magic items on a nearby mage... or any other attacker.... all the time.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-09-14, 10:58 AM
Sorry for arguing in your thread, Neizck.


Near as I can tell, your argument seems to be "X class skill isn't overpowered because X doesn't block P Z & Q spells even though Y or Z class skill does so don't try to look at the entire thing as a whole" combined with "it's not overpowered because if you try and fail to kill a mage with average spell loadouts because you are immune to scrying and a bunch of other stuff, he would know you are coming and prepare perfect spells which you have to be able to have a strong chance of countering and/or nullifying all by yourself... army of one and all that jazzz!".

No, I'm specifically talking about the spell-reflecting ability here. You originally said it was "an 'I win' button against an average caster" and I've been pointing out that, no, being able to reflect RTA spells is not a win button by any stretch.


Then give it as a class skill like paladins & crusaders have knowledge religion as a class skill. The only thing you are doing is changing the 4+int skill/level to 6+int skill/level for this class. 4+int skill/level is already higher than it should be anyways... paladin 2+int, cleric 2+int, fighter 2+int, etc. 4+int is usually reserved for skill monkey type classes, which this is not. 6+int is usually reserved for classes where being a skill monkey is a significant aspect compared to the rest of what the class gives.

As I said, if you were to do that, what ability would you give in its place now that it no longer has an ability at 2nd level?


You already claimed that this class is focused on killing casters who pump dex and specialize in rays as well as other casters, they have two by your own claim.

No, I said that, contrary to your claim that this is a win button ability, you have just a 50/50 chance to do so. It'll be slightly better against non-specialized casters, but the difference in Dex would be a few points at most.


Last I checked, there was no caster class that changed the stat that boosts each of your saves to be the same stat; there is a feat that will let you use con for your will save... and bmultiple melee classes/prc's that will let you add your charisma bonus to your saves, this class happens to be heavily charisma focused... :smallconfused: do you really think that a charisma focused class designed for killing casters isn't going to dip into at least one of those classes?

1) There is a grand total of one ability that even remotely references Cha, and that's the spell turning one, though of course I realize you're granting an inordinate amount of power to that one ability.

2) I never said the caster's getting one stat to all his saves, I said he needs one stat to boost his DCs while you need three stats to boost saves.


Really? Your DM casts dispel magic every encounter with a mage of any type? Be happy he cast it, maybe now your mage friend's persistant effect isn't going to get dispelled. You do play with a group of other people right?... this one class doesn't need to do everything.

I am the DM for my group. I've run many, many casters with different classes and strategies. Dispel magic or a variation on it is not the standard opening move for every single one; rather, if a caster flies out of range/goes invisible/otherwise tries to avoid the martial characters and the martial characters can fly/see invisible/otherwise overcome this protection, dispelling the gear that grants them that ability is a logical move.

Perhaps our opinions differ because you're used to seeing the "average" caster played as a PC who focuses on being a good team player and I'm used to seeing the "average" caster played as a BBEG or other enemy who focuses on being able to be a good challenge under 4-to-1 or 5-to-1 odds.


Don't storm a mage in an open field? Travel in a forest or do something else to provide some cover & line of sight breaks? Get something that raises your movement speed? Get a freaking bow or something for backup?

"Get in range" doesn't mean you start 100 feet away over an open field. Casters have teleportation; it could be a matter of days or weeks before you even find the place he's in.


Or this class could just cast fly itself.

Assuming an enemy caster (or allied caster, I suppose) has given him spell levels to work with.

]quote]You don't need to counter every counterable spell thrown your way. Not everything is going to use those spells, and not every encounter is going to be casting spells either.[/quote]

That's my point. Out of all possible caster abilities, casting RTA spells is a small minority. To make it worthwhile, you really need to either (A) be able to counter that subset of spells very well or (B) you need to be able to counter multiple kinds of spells. The occult slayer sucks because it can only counter RTA spells, and then only twice per day at most.


Even if you are in some strange campaign where every encounter your DM throws at you is an optimized mage who knew you were coming and had time to prepare (because you failed to kill him previously for some strange reason given this class's abilities), you still should find a point between not enough and unlimited times per day. There is also the fact that the occult slayer gains abilities beyond the counter and that this class's unlimited per day counter is even more powerful.... even more so when combined with some of the other stuff the class gets.

I mentioned the occult slayer's other abilities; an extra die of damage, a trivial save boost, and a negligible anti-scrying effect does not an effective caster-killer make.


Why does it get an extra 2 for free so it's essentially 6+int but without the "ummm..... no" hairs on the back of your DM's neck raising when he reads that particular line? It fights summoned monsters?... no, it fights mages. Give it knowledge of the planes as a class skill if you want it to be able to learn about them. Mages cast spells that interact with the planes and less skillpoints than this class, they still need to invest in it if they want to make knowledge the planes checks. Why does this class have 4+int skill points, either your focusing on fighting mages or focusing on typical fighter/ranger type skills... you shouldn't be getting both "just because" with an already powerful class. Remember "because it needs to fight mages" is not an answer, it's a cop-out and the equivalent of saying "I don't know" when the real answer is simply "I don't want to answer that question".

Why is 6+Int skills so objectionable? Wizards have 2+Int because they're Int-focused; nothing in this class depends on Int.

Tetrasodium
2010-09-14, 11:12 AM
Why is 6+Int skills so objectionable? Wizards have 2+Int because they're Int-focused; nothing in this class depends on Int.

Sorcerer's, clerics, fighters, paladins, etc all get get 2+int and are not int based classes.


1) There is a grand total of one ability that even remotely references Cha, and that's the spell turning one, though of course I realize you're granting an inordinate amount of power to that one ability.

Reflective Blade, Weapon of the Enemy, Means to an End, Magic Bane. All of these abilities depend on charisma for their use or to gain charges to use them. I'm done debating with you on this PairO'Dice Lost.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-09-14, 11:28 AM
I'm done debating with you on this PairO'Dice Lost.

Fine by me. I'll drop it if you will.

Niezck
2010-09-14, 11:54 AM
Sorry for arguing in your thread, Neizck.

No problemo, now go update the End of the Multiverse thread! :smalltongue:

I'll get to the rest of the posts later, and update the class a little. Too tired/busy right now.

BladeofOblivion
2010-09-14, 06:15 PM
Even if you are in some strange campaign where every encounter your DM throws at you is an optimized mage who knew you were coming and had time to prepare (because you failed to kill him previously for some strange reason given this class's abilities), you still should find a point between not enough and unlimited times per day.

To be fair, I am in a PbP that more-or-less amounts to this. My party is trying to take down the Tippyverse. I strongly suspect that this campaign will begin with us all getting Scry-n-Fried.

Khatoblepas
2010-09-14, 07:36 PM
I like this class a lot. It's distinctly antimagic, but has abilities that can counter and match up to any given wizard (barring high optimization). The tying the magic with a sword is a nice little flavorful touch. I'd say remove the slashing weapon restriction, though. There needs to be hammer wielding spellslayers. If anything, I'd err on the side of this class being a little underpowered. Not because it doesn't fulfil it's aim, but because it's a little too defensive. Sure you can defend against mages, and maybe hinder them, but apart from Magebane, you don't really have much firepower. It's a neat little class, though. I can see a Paladin of Tyranny 2/Hexblade 4/Blackguard 2 being a nice entry. Absolutely no spell power due to Mage Slayer, but still able to use wands and such. It's good to have options.

Though, if I were to include this class in my campaign, I'd probably give it the Ruby Knight Vindicator's manuever progression, maybe Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and Stone Dragon. But I like my classes to be a little more powerful than normal.