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bokodasu
2010-09-16, 05:40 AM
On the one hand, my DM plays everything movie-mode anyway, so he won't care that I can't talk to anyone else; on the other hand, it bothers me. What's the best, most efficient, cheapest way for a wildshaped druid to talk to the rest of the party?

I was thinking just handing out a wossis of speak with animals to the monk (it's not like he's busy) but that lacks... something.

Limitations: any magic item can be crafted per the rules in the DMG, but otherwise it's limited to core-only. (I did manage to wrangle an exception for wilding clasps, but that's probably it.)

Bonus question, for people whose DMs do allow non-core - would a Pearl of Speech work? I think it's in the Magic Item Compendium.

Serpentine
2010-09-16, 05:45 AM
Organise a set of signs for your party, preferably ones that can be used in any form. One tap for yes, two taps for no, that sort of thing.

Kaww
2010-09-16, 05:50 AM
You may write in the dirt with your paws if you have brief statements to make. For chitchat get tongues or telepathy.

You can argue whether tongues work if cast on a bear (not because of your type, but because of bear language), but DM isn't likely to argue on something that trivial.

Also, by errata, I might be mistaking, you keep your type when you wildshape, so speak with animals isn't gonna work, if I'm right.

bokodasu
2010-09-16, 05:52 AM
Oh, definitely - we even have a sign for "get out of melee, fools, I'm casting 'Mop Up Mooks'" but I'd still like something that would let me communicate "hey, I just scouted out two trolls and a cryohydra, also I'd like that pizza with double bacon, thanks."

Hm, you're right about type, I'd forgotten about that. Tongues I'm not sure about - my DM would probably accept it, but it does say that it doesn't let you speak with creatures that don't speak. Does a bear 'speak'?

Halna LeGavilk
2010-09-16, 06:05 AM
Most mammals have similar vocal cords to humans. The main problem is that most animals can't put together the syntax. A bear should be able to make a very, very rough approximation of human speech.

Serpentine
2010-09-16, 06:11 AM
If you can "talk with animals"...

It's possible to make quite complex sign systems, by the way. You might have to invest a skipp point in it, granted, but it can be done. Even dolphins can be taught a grammar of signs ( [action] [item 2] means use item 1 to do the action on item 2, while [item 2] [action] [item 1] means use item 2 to do the action on item 1, for example).

So, for that message of yours, for example, you might do:
beak point = that way
beak tap x2 = two
feather flare = big
tap on human, tap on ground = monstrous humanoid
chirp = and
feather fluff = cold
head down, hiss = reptile
head tap x# = # heads
chirp = and
feather fluff with snort = pig
beak tap x2 = two

Sooo... Hey, it's possible :smalltongue: Might be worth looking into some of the sign language they've taught to gorillas.

[I]edit: No no no, not at all. Even if the vocal chords are the same (and I'm not sure about that), there's also differences in lips and tongue.

Fingerlessfist
2010-09-16, 06:11 AM
Most mammals have similar vocal cords to humans. The main problem is that most animals can't put together the syntax. A bear should be able to make a very, very rough approximation of human speech.

I'd allow it but give it a dc of 20 to understand it.

Psyx
2010-09-16, 06:21 AM
Most mammals have similar vocal cords to humans. The main problem is that most animals can't put together the syntax. A bear should be able to make a very, very rough approximation of human speech.

Err... Vocal chords themselves: Yes. But don't almost all animals lack a descended larynx? It's kind of important for the full range of sounds used in speech.

bokodasu
2010-09-16, 06:23 AM
Most mammals have similar vocal cords to humans.

Actually, they don't; that's why you can teach a gorilla to sign but not to speak. Human vocal chords are unique. (You see why I am having a problem with this? Too derned picky for D&D world!)

holywhippet
2010-09-16, 06:26 AM
You can argue whether tongues work if cast on a bear (not because of your type, but because of bear language), but DM isn't likely to argue on something that trivial.

Bears lack the INT score to have a language as such, tongues won't work. Even if the druid keeps their INT score, they are in a form that has no natural language.

Back in 3.0 this kind of thing would be covered by the innuendo skill. In 3.5 that was kind of folded into the bluff skill, although that is more in the way of saying something with hidden meaning.

I'm wondering if there is a spell that could be used - something like dancing lights would be ideal, but it's not on the druid spell list.

Wait, I've got it. Just use semaphore to pass on your message one letter at a time.

Serpentine
2010-09-16, 06:27 AM
Morse code! :D
Also, I'm pretty sure innuendo is still kept intact in Bluff.

bokodasu
2010-09-16, 06:28 AM
It is kind of odd. There are spells that let you speak with anything (rocks? No problem!) but no spells to let things speak with you. Wizards are awfully egocentric.

Eldariel
2010-09-16, 06:40 AM
Yeah, easiest stuff is the usual "write on the ground", "sign language" or some such. It's more of a creative puzzle than anything else. Though eventually you can get Persistent Telepathic Bond between the characters.

Esser-Z
2010-09-16, 07:03 AM
Interpretive dance.

pasko77
2010-09-16, 07:04 AM
On the one hand, my DM plays everything movie-mode anyway, so he won't care that I can't talk to anyone else; on the other hand, it bothers me. What's the best, most efficient, cheapest way for a wildshaped druid to talk to the rest of the party?


Genma Saotome.

http://www.ranmaonline.com/gallery/images/genma/genma_001.gif
/thread

Tyger
2010-09-16, 07:09 AM
While it may be out of your price range now, a Helm of Telepathy with a Wildling Clasp (you noted they were in) solves all your communication issues, and has a couple of side benefits. Granted, the Helm alone is 27K, so its a pricey answer.

Ordinarily a dip into Mindbender solves all communication issues, but qualifying as a Druid would be a challenge in and of itself...

panaikhan
2010-09-16, 07:13 AM
I'm dredging through my woefully inconsistant memories, but I do seem to recall a cursed medallion of ESP that broadcast your thoughts to a certain radius.
Druids 'think' the same, regardless of their shape, right?

-edit- item, as it is cursed, is pretty cheap I remember. 1500gp?

Jack_Simth
2010-09-16, 07:18 AM
Drow Sign Language. It's mentioned as an actual language under the Drow monster entry (specifically, it's one of the bonus languages for Drow in the 'drow as characters' section). You can't speak, but for 2 skill points per person (1, if someone happens to have Speak Language on their list of class skills), you can all chat with each other anyway.

There's also the Medallion of Thought Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#medallionofThoughtProjection) (Cursed item section of the DMG).

dsmiles
2010-09-16, 07:36 AM
If you're willing to spend a feat, I believe there was a Wild Speech feat in one of the splatbooks. I can't remember which one. It may have been Masters of the Wild, though.

Psyx
2010-09-16, 07:38 AM
Lack of opposable thumbs would nix any normal sign language, as they tend to kind of need them.

Level of master of many forms.


Or Perform: Mime.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-16, 07:52 AM
If you really want to make it mechanic instead of meta-ing it all (as in: develop sign language, players dump a few minutes into getting it for no mechanical effect in-game), make it a full-round action sense motive check. Or make it an extra language "Druidperson1's Sign Language" and let people burn a skill point in it.

Kaww
2010-09-16, 08:56 AM
Bears lack the INT score to have a language as such, tongues won't work. Even if the druid keeps their INT score, they are in a form that has no natural language.


Again you are not a bear and you do keep your int, no 'even if'.

Spell description specifically says: "This spell grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature..." Again mind that your type doesn't change, so you as a creature are still humanoid, not a bear.

You are inteligent and you do speak, most of the time. These are the requirements for the target of tongues and you qualify.

PinkysBrain
2010-09-16, 09:01 AM
Bears lack the INT score to have a language as such, tongues won't work. Even if the druid keeps their INT score, they are in a form that has no natural language.
So? Neither an intelligence score nor an existing natural languages are mentioned as necessary for the target of the spell.

A bear is a perfectly valid target for the spell, regardless of intelligence score ... and it will grant him "the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature".

Snake-Aes
2010-09-16, 09:04 AM
Two important things
1) An intelligent creature is a creature with an int score, so a bear qualifies. He just won't be a very interesting chatting partner.
2) This thread is not about a bear, but about a bear-shaped druid! Or anything-shaped druid. It's a damn pc.

PinkysBrain
2010-09-16, 09:06 AM
Even a gelatinous cube qualifies as a valid target, but it would have even less to say than the bear ... even if it did, the lack of voice is a problem (your speech carries as far as your normal voice). A bear does have a voice though, so no problems there.

Kaww
2010-09-16, 09:13 AM
Even a gelatinous cube qualifies as a valid target, but it would have even less to say than the bear ... even if it did, the lack of voice is a problem (your speech carries as far as your normal voice). A bear does have a voice though, so no problems there.

I disagree. Gelatinous cube: cube hungry, cube hungry, cube eat, cube hungry... Round and round it goes. No one ever listens to oozes... :smallbiggrin:

bokodasu
2010-09-16, 09:13 AM
Ah-hah! I was remembering the restriction on tongues backwards; it's that it won't let a human speak bear*, not that it won't let a bear (or someone with bearish vocal chords) speak human. No problem, then! But dang, that's way more expensive than speaking with animals. Stupid humans and their stupid language.

*Still assuming that a bear is a "creature that doesn't speak". Which I am, but you certainly don't have to.

PinkysBrain
2010-09-16, 09:24 AM
I wouldn't say speak with animals wouldn't work ... it's just that it's short duration and not readily available to all classes, so you'd first have to get someone to cast it before you could even speak with him ... not very handy compared to a permanent telepathic bond or tongues.

An alternative is an item like Trident of Fish Command, which gives permanent speak with animals ... also not cheap though.

Shenanigans
2010-09-16, 09:47 AM
Ordinarily a dip into Mindbender solves all communication issues, but qualifying as a Druid would be a challenge in and of itself...
Solve this by having someone else in the party dip into Mindbender, or take Leadership and get a cohort with a Mindbender level.

We had that in a campaign once. We referred to her as "Communications Suite." :)

bokodasu
2010-09-16, 09:50 AM
I'd have to get someone else to take Leadership (half-orc druid: my animal companions tend to have the same CHA as me), but that does remind me that I've been meaning to throw that at our DM.

Where do I find Mindbender?

Delusion
2010-09-16, 10:00 AM
Solve this by having someone else in the party dip into Mindbender, or take Leadership and get a cohort with a Mindbender level.

We had that in a campaign once. We referred to her as "Communications Suite." :)

Have that cohort be a warforged. A protocol droid :D

Kaww
2010-09-16, 10:01 AM
Complete arcane p54. This prc is 1 lvl long...

Tetrasodium
2010-09-16, 10:02 AM
A single level in master of many forms (complete adventurer) would give you the ability to speak in any of your forms, communicate with other creatures of the same kind while in wildshape provided such creature is normally capable of communicating with each other using natural methods, and add humanoid to your wildshape list, additional levels add other fun stuff.

bokodasu
2010-09-16, 10:47 AM
...add humanoid to your wildshape list...

Heh. There is no way my DM will ever, ever go for that. (In our first session, he bumped up the druid's powers a bit because he didn't think they had much going for them. By our third session, he was wondering why there even were any other classes.) But I'll keep it in mind for the next time I play something that isn't core-only.

Mark Hall
2010-09-16, 10:52 AM
You might also go with simply stating that your group is developing a language that your animal forms CAN use, and simply invest two skill points. It's a combination of sounds and actions that helps to convey thoughts, especially since everyone knows each other so well.

EDIT: On the "protocol droid" idea, we've actually got something similar in our Night Below game... my pseudodragon familiar. With telepathy, he can talk with anything that has a language. He also happens to be more charismatic than my gnome.

Halna LeGavilk
2010-09-16, 06:46 PM
Actually, they don't; that's why you can teach a gorilla to sign but not to speak. Human vocal chords are unique. (You see why I am having a problem with this? Too derned picky for D&D world!)

Actually, the human vocal cords aren't unique. (http://thebrain.mcgill.ca/flash/capsules/outil_bleu21.html) Sign language is a lot simpler than true speech is, and lacks a lot of the subtlety, so animals understand it easier.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-16, 07:17 PM
Where do I find Mindbender?Complete Arcane. Pretty easy requirements for an Arcanist, a Druid will have a MUCH harder time of it. Still, makes a great one-level dip for almost any Arcanist, so you generally won't have much trouble convincing someone to take it.

Especially if you point out that said one-level dip qualifies them for Mindsight (Libris Mortis), which is really, really tricky to hide from.

Zhalath
2010-09-16, 08:28 PM
You could try to communicate with your party via facial expressions and grunts and roars.

While on the topic of level dips and non-core, you could convince someone in your party to dip warlock one level to get Call of the Beast for speak with animals. Not efficient, but it does work, I think. Maybe convince a party member that warlock is a really tight class and totally worth his time (Bluff DC +5).

Besides, isn't the bear language something like "bear bear beary bear"?

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-16, 11:56 PM
Can't the druid go find some animals from a powerful form that he can shapechange into, like a Legendary Eagle, and then Awaken it, and any time the druid is an Eagle, Dire Eagle, or Legendary Eagle, he can talk to it, and as an awakened creature it can translate for him?

Also, weren't Wookie noises from Walruses, Bears, Camels, and Badgers? Just say you sound like Chewbacca and come up with Shyriiwook from scratch.

Rising Phoenix
2010-09-17, 12:22 AM
Research the following spell:

Speak with humanoids: As speak with animals but cast on animal/wildshaped person.

Done. :P

R.P.

Jjeinn-tae
2010-09-17, 01:53 AM
I disagree. Gelatinous cube: cube hungry, cube hungry, cube eat, cube hungry... Round and round it goes. No one ever listens to oozes... :smallbiggrin:

I'm actually in a campaign that the players are all oozes... Most of them are so unintelligent that they're almost omniscient, we break the forth wall a lot, though mine speaks like you said... It is a very interesting conversation.



Though in all seriousness, this is about bear conversation. When wildshaped into a bear, to communicate stand on your hind legs and make complex arm motions, while making noises of a specific pitch. Then people can translate the motions you make taking into account the pitch you used. Provided you are in a form that has two limbs that could be moved around like that, you would probably be able to use the same set of signs.

I'm not sure if you need to spend skill points to invent a language, I would think an adventurer language would be rather simple. It's doubtful you'll be discussion the meaning of life and everything in your signs.

Dr.Epic
2010-09-17, 01:56 AM
Telepathy.

reptilecobra13
2010-09-17, 02:27 AM
Earrings of the Wolf for each member of your party. Telepathy across the group, so long as each of the earrings worn by a party member was made at the same time.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-17, 02:34 AM
Earrings of the Wolf, from Dragon 334, huh? *checks* Those only transmit spoken words, unless there is an updated version elsewhere?

Fouredged Sword
2010-09-17, 11:32 AM
ventriloquism

permanency or wildclasped item there of.

Thurbane
2010-09-17, 07:06 PM
Dip into Sorc or Wiz.
Get a raven familiar (can speak common)
Cast Speak With Animals on it.
It can relay your words to the party.

Similarly, take a dip in the Knight of the Raven PrC, and have your raven harrier do the same thing.

Gan The Grey
2010-09-17, 08:48 PM
A believe Pearl of Speech is enchanted using the Tongues spell, so basically a Pearl of Speech is Tongue Lite. Just get one for Common, and you should be good-to-go.

Kaww
2010-09-18, 01:57 AM
Dip into Sorc or Wiz.
Get a raven familiar (can speak common)
Cast Speak With Animals on it.
It can relay your words to the party.

Similarly, take a dip in the Knight of the Raven PrC, and have your raven harrier do the same thing.

Familiar is a magical beast? Pay attention to types... Also I believe that an awakened animal is also a magical beast, might be wrong. And again a bear druid is still a humanoid, most likely.

Get a Saint template, you get tongues. Also try to turn your caster lvl from divine to arcane and 1 lvl mindbender. Yes you lose a lvl of wildshape.