...there is only war.

[Prime32]

Something I statted up a while back.

The following stats do not include the effects of magic items. A Space Marine's typical gear would include, at the least, a suit of +1 full plate and gauntlets of ogre power +4 (depending on level).

Space Marine (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Marines)
Size/Type: Medium Humanoid (Human, Space Marine)
Hit Dice: 8d8+40 (80 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40ft
Armour Class: 18 (+6 natural, +2 Dex)
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Attack: Slam +10 melee (1d6+4) or spittle +8 ranged touch (4d6 acid plus blinding) or bite +5 melee (1d3+4 plus 1d3 acid) or Large masterwork heavy repeating crossbow +9 ranged (2d6)
Full attack: Large heavy repeating crossbow +9/+4 ranged (2d6)
Special Attacks: Consume (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Omophagea), Spittle (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Betcher%27s_Gland)
Special Qualities: Amphibious, Damage reduction 3/-, Darkvision 60ft, Light fortification (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Ossmudula), Low-light vision, Powerful build, Resistance to fire and cold 5
Saves: Fort +11* Ref +4 Will +9 (Fort good, Ref poor, Will good)
Abilities: Str 19 Dex 15 Con 20 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 14
Skills:
Feats: DiehardB, EnduranceB, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (repeating crossbow), Iron Will, Track
Challenge Rating: 7
Advancement: By character class
Equipment: Large masterwork heavy repeating crossbow

Skills: Space Marines have a +4 racial bonus on Concentration, Listen, Spot and Survival checks

* Space Marines receive a +4 bonus on saving throws against poison.

Space Marines are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and heavy armour.

Amphibious (Ex): A Space Marine can breathe water as easily as air.

Consume (Ex): A Space Marine can consume the flesh of a fallen foe as a full-round action. Doing so lets him treat members of that species/organisation as a favoured enemy for 48 hours, as a 1st-level ranger (granting a +2 bonus on weapon damage, as well as Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks), and prevents any form of resurrection which requires an intact corpse. Only a single marine may consume a Small creature, but two may feed from a Medium creature, four a Large creature, etc.

Light Fortification (Ex): When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a Space Marine, there is a 25% chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.

Powerful Build (Ex): The physical stature of a Space Marine lets him function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a Space Marine is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), he is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A Space Marine is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A Space Marine can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of spells, abilities, and powers that change the subject’s size category.

Spittle (Ex): Once per 2d4 rounds, a Space Marine may spit a glob of acid as a ranged touch attack against a target within 30ft, dealing 1d6 damage per two levels. Struck creatures must make a DC 19 Fort save or be blinded for 1 minute. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Individual chapters would have 1st-level-only racial feats.

[Eldan]

I would include a kind of fear resistance, like that of a Paladin. Or would you handle the indoctrination part via class levels?

Also, Alingment. Usually Lawful Neutral?

[Prime32]

I would include a kind of fear resistance, like that of a Paladin. Or would you handle the indoctrination part via class levels?To some extent, but that resilience is covered by having a good Will save.

[Eldan]

Right, right. Still, I don't suppose a +4 against fear would unbalance them... though it would mean they would pretty much always make their saves against something which is balanced against them. Probably not, then. Iron Will's good enough.

[Prime32]

I had given them immunity to poison until it was pointed out that Tyranids can still affect them despite having about three poison-neutralising organs.

[Eldan]

Agreed on that one. They just have ridiculous fort saves, which your version covers nicely.

Have you thought about giving them level adjustment? With a low LA, they probably wouldn't be half bad for melee classes. +8 STR makes happy barbarians.

[Oslecamo]

Consume (Ex): A Space Marine can consume the flesh of a fallen foe as a full-round action. Doing so allows him to gain the benefits of a speak with dead spell (caster level = HD/2) which is not based on language (thus allowing even creatures of animal intelligence to be interrogated), and prevents any form of resurrection which requires an intact corpse. Only a single marine may consume a Small creature, but two may feed from a Medium creature, four a Large creature, etc. A Space Marine cannot consume the same creature multiple times.

Movie marine ability, and even then only on Blood Angel movie chapter.

Again, if spech merines could do anything remotely close to that, there would be a lot less heresy on the Imperium instead of traitors hiding at every corner and nobody noticing them.



Spittle (Ex): Once per 2d4 rounds, a Space Marine may spit a glob of acid as a ranged touch attack against a target within 30ft, dealing 1d8 damage per two levels. Struck creatures must make a DC 19 Fort save or be blinded for 1 minute. The save DC is Constitution-based.

This one I don't even know where you got from. Yes they have acidic saliva, this doesn't mean they're suddenly better bio-weapons than the tyranids themselves.



Damage reduction 3/-

Since when are spech merines fully made of pure adamantine again?



Space Marines receive a +4 bonus on saving throws against poison.

You're kinda making me confused here. Movie marines abilities left and right, and then something that's actualy codex gets nerfed. Marines are actualy suposed to be immune to poison.

EDIT: And since we're at it could you explain why they're wiser/charismatic than your average human?

[Prime32]

Movie marinesMeh, I don't actually play 40K. :smalltongue: I take it that "movie marines" are the ones in in-universe propaganda? I was going mostly off the wiki.

I don't see how the Omophagea (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Omophagea) helps you find heretics when you have to kill the target to use it anyway.


Have you thought about giving them level adjustment? With a low LA, they probably wouldn't be half bad for melee classes. +8 STR makes happy barbarians.Eh, most LAs are far too high. If you use an alternate "monster races" system like the one in Races of War (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Playing_Unusual_Races#Powerful_Races) (*ducks rock thrown by Oslecamo*), they're playable as lv8 characters.


EDIT: And since we're at it could you explain why they're wiser/charismatic than your average human?That's an artefact of an earlier version where they were considered to already have the elite array (the justification being that only exceptional humans can survive the process which transforms them into Space Marines). They should have mental stats of 8/10/12.

But what, you don't think a SPEHS MAHREEN should be good at intimidating people?*

*Non-grimdark people

[Eldan]

That's why I said low LA. +1, perhaps. I'm not sure if +0 would be out of the question.

[Oslecamo]

Meh, I don't actually play 40K. :smalltongue: I take it that "movie marines" are the ones in in-universe propaganda? I was going mostly off the wiki.

I don't see how the Omophagea (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Omophagea) helps you find heretics when you have to kill the target to use it anyway.

That organ only gives some basic information like general weak points/strenghts of a species.

By your version it would go something like this:
Cultist: For chaos...MY SPLEEN!
SM: Nom nom nom...Hey, nice, now I know where his friends are hiding, and their plans for the future, so we don't need to exterminatus this planet just to be safe!

So basically you only needed to get one member of an enemy organization (and not even alive at that), and you get to find all their secrets.

Why would you need the Inquisition? Just send a SM to nom nom dead enemies and you find out all you want!

Also, movie marines are what you get when you start to extrapolate their abilities. For example:
Reinforced bones to hold their bigger mass->cleary harder->clearly bullet proof-clearly as hard as adamantine.



Eh, most LAs are far too high. If you use an alternate "monster races" system like the one in Races of War (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Playing_Unusual_Races#Powerful_Races) (*ducks rock thrown by Oslecamo*), they're playable as lv8 characters.

Oh why don't just allow them to be played from first level? Because the tomes fully support stuff that make you stronger whitout any drawback as you pointed out in another thread (the undead templates being the one of the clearest offenders here).



That's an artefact of an earlier version. They should have mental stats of 8/10/12.

Much better!:smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

I would suggest giving a +2 bonus, similar to a ranger's favoured enemy, against creatures they have eaten, for a set amount of time, like 48 hours. That way, they can eat their first goblin and then have a bonus against the rest of the tribe.

[Prime32]

Oh why don't just allow them to be played from first level? Because the tomes fully support stuff that make you stronger whitout any drawback as you pointed out in another thread (the undead templates being the biggest offender here).Actually I pointed out that a 4th-level barbarian can have a higher Str score than was claimed that a character would have to be 11th-level or higher to have. No Tome material was involved.

I find the undead templates more reasonable than losing eight character levels just so you can bite peoples' necks. The Tome templates don't even give you the powerful stuff like immunity to mind-affecting. Now, allowing the feats and racial paragon classes is another story.

That organ only gives some basic information like general weak points/strenghts of a species.

By your version it would go something like this:
Cultist: For chaos...MY SPLEEN!
SM: Nom nom nom...Hey, nice, now I know where his friends are hiding, and their plans for the future, so we don't need to exterminatus this planet just to be safe!

So basically you only needed to get one member of an enemy organization (and not even alive at that), and you get to find all their secrets.

Why would you need the Inquisition? Just send a SM to nom nom dead enemies and you find out all you want!True, I could possibly have handled that better. I think I might have been trying at the time to give them a way to contribute out of combat. Eldan's sounds decent.

[Oslecamo]

Actually I pointed out that a 4th-level barbarian can have a higher Str score than was claimed that a character would have to be 11th-level or higher to have. No Tome material was involved.

I missed that one. I was talking about you claiming their undeads are weaker when they're actualy stronger.



I find the undead templates more reasonable than losing eight character levels just so you can bite peoples' necks. The Tome templates don't even give you the powerful stuff like immunity to mind-affecting. Now, allowing the feats and racial paragon classes is another story.

Ask yourself, by the tome rules, is there any reason at all for you not to be an undead of sorts? Besides you possibly don't liking undeads?

Because their undead templates are free and gives you bonus. You're gaining something for nothing. Of course that if they gave you the really powerfull stuff for free it would be more broken, but doesn't change that a templated character is flat out better than a non-templated one.



True, I could possibly have handled that better.

I endorse Eldan's sugestion.

[Prime32]

Because their undead templates are free and gives you bonus. You're gaining something for nothing. Of course that if they gave you the really powerfull stuff for free it would be more broken, but doesn't change that a templated character is flat out better than a non-templated one.Well, clerics can turn/rebuke you, you can't benefit from Inspire Courage, heroism, Rage, etc., and there are drawbacks like being damaged by sunlight. *shrugs* Still usually a net gain, but an undead PC will need to take special care in civilised areas.



I did a rough draft for orks as well:

Ork
Size/Type: Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Ork, Psionic)
Hit Dice:
Initiative:
Speed:
Armour Class:
Base Attack Bonus:
Attack:
Full attack:
Special Attacks:
Special Qualities: Fast healing 1, Low-light vision, Orkcraft, Naturally psionic, Plant traits, WAAGH!
Saves: Fort +? Ref +? Will +?
Abilities: Str ? Dex ? Con ? Int 6 Wis ? Cha ?
Skills:
Feats: Power Attack, Steadfast DeterminationB
Challenge Rating:
Advancement: ?-? HD (Medium), ?-? HD (Large)

Skills: Orks have a +4 bonus on Use Magic/Psionic Device checks made to use items crafted with the Orkcraft ability, and can make checks in untrained skills as if they were trained.

Orks are proficient in all simple, martial, and exotic weapons.

Naturally Psionic: Orks gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level.

Orkcraft (Su): An ork may apply a +10 bonus to any checks made to craft an item, but such an item relies partially on psionic energies to function and thus can only be used by orks. An orkcraft item takes double damage from attacks if there are no orks within 30ft.

Plant traits: An ork has immunity to all mind-affecting effects (except those created by orks), as well as poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning. An ork is not subject to critical hits.

WAAGH! (Su): An ork gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls for every other ork within 30ft (max +5). If he is capable of manifesting psionic powers, he also gains a +1 bonus to manifester level while there are at least five orks within 30ft.Wot you tink?

[Oslecamo]

Well, clerics can turn/rebuke you,

Wraiths cannot be turned at all, and the others gain a bonus against it.



you can't be benefit from Inspire Courage or use Rage,

Ok, that's like saying wizards are balanced because they cannot wear heavy armor.



and there are drawbacks like being damaged by sunlight. *shrugs*

Only the vampire, and the ghoul if you consider only being able to eat raw meat a meaningull disadvantage.



Still usually a net gain, but an undead PC will need to take special care in civilised areas.

Completely setting-dependant, and even then nothing that a simple shroud cannot solve. Heck, in some civilized areas like that Eberron undead city it would be an advantage!




Wot you tink?

Too stable. You've just stated the eldar, not the orks. Orks greatly favor randomness.

[Eldan]

Well.

As for the ork: clearly stronger and probably also tougher than a space marine. The randomness itself should not be inherent in the ork, I think, but in the weapons they craft. Perhaps make an Orkcraft template for weapons, or an Orkcraft item creation feat, with an ability like: "costs half as much to craft, but has a random drawback from the following list:"

Also, since they already have plant traits, and are fungi, why not make them plants instead of monstrous humanoids?

[Prime32]

Too stable. You've just stated the eldar, not the orks. Orks greatly favor randomness.I figure there could be Racial Substitution Levels or something for that.

I can see orks taking to the Society Mind (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/society-mind) class quite well.

EDIT: Should orks have rage/frenzy?

[Oslecamo]

I figure there could be Racial Substitution Levels or something for that.

Speaking of wich, they're certainly as smart if not smarter than marines. One of the two ork gods is all about being kunning and they know how to adapt to new situations quite well. It's wisdom they lack.



I can see orks taking to the Society Mind (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/society-mind) class quite well.

I don't. They aren't an hivemind. They're a mob mind. One of the biggest challenge of the warboss is to keep the boyz focused on an objective.



EDIT: Should orks have rage/frenzy?

Certainly. And their manifesting should be stronger during it.

Also they certainly have powerfull build. Orks start big and only get bigger. That's their main advantage in melee.

Another thing you seem to be missing is their capacity to improvise. An average ork can enter a broken vehicle and make it run just because nobody told him it's broken. An ork can paint something red and it will go faster. They don't just get a bonus to craft checks, they craft stuff pretty fast.

Anyway I may as well do all this stuff right on my own monster threads now that I think about it.

[Prime32]

I don't. They aren't an hivemind. They're a mob mind. One of the biggest challenge of the warboss is to keep the boyz focused on an objective.Let me clarify. In a setting where society minds exist, an ork might find the concept interesting.

Besides, Society Minds aren't a hivemind either. They don't gain any control over the members of their network.


Also, since they already have plant traits, and are fungi, why not make them plants instead of monstrous humanoids?Monstrous humanoids get better features. (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/typesSubtypes.htm)