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Pika...
2010-09-18, 06:31 PM
I am looking over my 3rd edition Eldar Codex because I want to incorporate a bit of the Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Harlequin "feel" into my D20 Future campaign (aka the Last Age of my D&D cosmology/setting).

Am I being dumb, or does it just seem so easy?


I am looking at p.5 of the Eldar Codex at the Ranged Weapons table, and I started at the Shuriken Pistol. It seems easy enough:

-Str. 4 --> 1d4 Damage?
-12" Range = 12 squares --> 60ft Range?
-I imagine AP would still suit a purpose, as these are D20 future weapons, so the AP number would equal the amount of Armor bonus it can simply "go through"?.
-Pistol --> Means it only gets one shot of a round?


Please let me know what you think of all this. Did I come across a very simple loop-hole, or am I completely off here balance-wise?


Any ideas or suggestions for other conversions? Eldar, Dark Eldar, And Harlequin vehicles particularly interest me right now!


Many Pikas in advance!

Siosilvar
2010-09-18, 07:34 PM
Bolters are Strength 4. Bolters fire 20mm grenades.

...yeah, that's a bit more than 1d4 damage.

Lycan 01
2010-09-19, 12:03 AM
Oh dear. A Shuriken pistol fires a handful of mono-molecular shuriken that simply slice through whatever is in their path. It will do much, much more than 1d4 damage. If you want to just wing it, I'd say 1 shot per turn which is actually a short burst of missiles, and 2d4 or so since most of the shots may only miss or lightly graze the opponent. A near miss would still be devatastating. You could just say kill shots are the ones where the shuriken actually hit something vital and shreddinate it. :smalltongue:

Icedaemon
2010-09-19, 04:54 PM
I'd say:
Laspistol/lasgun (pretty much the weakest weapon in 40k)
Has the same effect as a class D laser firing as a pulsar at full power (enough to vaporize non-heat-proofed material such as flesh and thus create tiny explosions - source (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lasgun))
2d4-3d4 fire damage - even a grazing hit will create a bloom of heat.

The aforementioned Shuriken (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Shuriken)rifle - 1d12-1d20 damage with a (19-20)x3-(18-20)x4 critical modifier - negligible like a papercut in the case of a graze, will tear through nearly anything.

Bolter (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bolter), firing standard rounds - 2d10-4d8 damage, also with a substantial critical modifier. The damage should be even higher in the case of hellfire and Inferno bolts {albeit with half (if not all) of the damage being converted into acid or fire-based respectively}

/Gauss Weaponry (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gauss_Weaponry) - 2d8-3d8 damage in the case of the basic Flayer, higher with others, basic x2 critical modifier, ignore damage resistance, attack rolls are made against touch armour class.

...and so on.

Come to think of it, given the armour of most of the Warhammer universe's units, these values are probably a bit lower than they could be.

This is even not mentioning the fact that several of these weapons fire in bursts and heavy bolters and such are designed for automatic fire.

Siosilvar
2010-09-19, 05:00 PM
I'd say:
Laspistol/lasgun (pretty much the weakest weapon in 40k)
Has the same effect as a class D laser firing as a pulsar at full power (enough to vaporize non-heat-proofed material such as flesh and thus create tiny explosions - source (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lasgun))
2d4-3d4 fire damage - even a grazing hit will create a bloom of heat.

Also roughly equivalent to the typical Star Wars blaster pistol, given a damage of 3d6 in d20 versions of Star Wars.

Icedaemon
2010-09-19, 05:06 PM
An astute assessment. Using that as a baseline would indeed work quite well.

I still like the idea of the shuriken weaponry dealing 1d20 damage, mind you.

imp_fireball
2010-09-19, 05:47 PM
Am I being dumb, or does it just seem so easy?

No it is easy.

Even if you want to just put it right into D&D (but the designing the actual games part is harder, I think).

imp_fireball
2010-09-19, 05:49 PM
An astute assessment. Using that as a baseline would indeed work quite well.

I still like the idea of the shuriken weaponry dealing 1d20 damage, mind you.

Well say, if a shuriken gun fires a shuriken more quickly than a thrown shuriken, maybe it deals +X damage like a composite bow (more force)? Or +1d4.

The way I look at it - if the shuriken merely skims you with a cut and then keeps going, then it isn't '1 damage' (unless it went through something nigh-vital like a stomache or vital like a heart or neck - say, it skimmed the jugular) - it's no damage. A small cut will never drop you, ever.

If you can't get over being 'cut slightly' then you aren't an adventurer (doesn't prevent you from role playing how annoyed you were by it though). :smalltongue:


Laspistol/lasgun (pretty much the weakest weapon in 40k)
Has the same effect as a class D laser firing as a pulsar at full power (enough to vaporize non-heat-proofed material such as flesh and thus create tiny explosions - source)
2d4-3d4 fire damage - even a grazing hit will create a bloom of heat.

Hey does a lasgun fire like a star wars blaster? If it does, it's not really a laser - it's narrow plasma that creates a flash of photons to make it appear like a laser (note that real lasers always move at the speed of light - they can't be dodged!).

Just a fluff nitpick.


-Str. 4 --> 1d4 Damage?
-12" Range = 12 squares --> 60ft Range?
-I imagine AP would still suit a purpose, as these are D20 future weapons, so the AP number would equal the amount of Armor bonus it can simply "go through"?.
-Pistol --> Means it only gets one shot of a round?

Granted, an inch in warhammer represents a portion of a battlefield rather than a portion of a room - so it might be greater than 5ft (maybe, 10ft.x5ft.? 10ftx10ft.? 20ftx20ft.?). But this is entirely arbitrary on your part.

Also, under my warglory conversion rules - pistols that are semi-automatic (auto-cycling, as in it re-chambers a round immediately after firing; not semi-automatic as in two firing modes), can fire twice in a full attack action - or twice, with the shot during movement taking a -2 penalty or something and the shot during attack taking no penalty. Then there's snap shots (similar to AoO but with ranged weapons and dexterity checks).

And feats like rapid shot allow the two attacks to come twice (rather than one additional attack; it's more like one additional 'attack set') with a -2 penalty to every attack - and applying to each weapon held (say, if you're holding two pistols).

But that's all based on tactical style combat.


(enough to vaporize non-heat-proofed material such as flesh and thus create tiny explosions - source)

Well, it depends - to cause skin to explode, there needs to be slow pressure build up. A lasgun (from what you're saying) tends to scald immediately. So I'd rule that it cooks flesh, causing it to melt and change material states into ash rather than pressure build up (the latter would only occur for continuous concentrated blasts on a structure like a vehicle).

Also, heat resistant as in it can deflect heat (as in the heat doesn't melt the metal)? If so, there is heat build up inside (50-50 damage to vehicle and passengers/driver/crew). If heat resistant, as in it provides insulation, then generally the heat won't build up inside.



Bolter, firing standard rounds - 2d10-4d8 damage, also with a substantial critical modifier. The damage should be even higher in the case of hellfire and Inferno bolts {albeit with half (if not all) of the damage being converted into acid or fire-based respectively}

/Gauss Weaponry - 2d8-3d8 damage in the case of the basic Flayer, higher with others, basic x2 critical modifier, ignore damage resistance, attack rolls are made against touch armour class.

Bolters are very high caliber. The higher the velocity the less the point of making it high caliber (since it tends to just go right through rather than go inside the target and rupture organs, etc.). So, a low velocity bolter could eviscerate a target (cut it right in half) very easily.

Bolters shouldn't be all that great against vehicles and making them armor piercing is sort of a loss cause - this reflects that marines are mainly for taking out infantry and big monsters. In other words, they should do only piercing damage and the damage should be like at 25% versus a vehicle's hardness.

Essentially the weapons of savages (or noble bad ass space marines, depending on who's viewpoint you are using). Very loud. High recoil, meaning (under warglory) high penalty without the appropriate strength score or stability (or whatever; stability can be acquired from leaning against terrain, or making it into a turret, etc.; also marines get their strength from their powered armor so they can fire it from the hip any day).

If the round explodes, maybe a little bit extra damage (+1d6) and some arbitrary damage in a very small radius (it isn't like a grenade; that would be hazardous for every shot fired) + bonus slashing/piercing/bludgeoning damage if the attack kills the target immediately (body parts become shrapnel).

I would not rule higher critical modifier for a bolter. Blowing up a head is hardly any different from cutting someone in half. If either attack doesn't do either (because the enemy has lots of hp), then it won't do either. Damage reflects multiple organs rupturing rather then 'the heart was totally anihilated'. Highest multiplier I'd go for is x3 (for great axe; have you actually seen two handed battle axes? They can asplode heads in one swing; a scythe only has x4 because if swung in the right way, a graze can turn into an evisceration or a lopped off head).

Hell-fire/inferno bolts shouldn't do extra damage. The round burns up rather then bouncing around - so part or all of the damage should just turn into fire damage (also good for lighting up areas with tracer rounds though). If it happens to blow a hole through an enemy while setting them on fire, that's just fire damage - it isn't any more 'epic' then eviscerating them.
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Gauss weaponry is based on the principle of 'hyper-acceleration'. Likely low-caliber due to the energy requirements (if necrons have enough energy to make it any caliber; then damn, the imperium IS screwed; but even that is less damage than a bolter round for round). Any gauss round is likely to break the sound barrier a dozen times over. The problem is that it will go right through an enemy, but the resulting impacting shock wave should do some extra damage.

Idea - exit wounds from (complete warrior? adventurer?) mean that the round should always go through an enemy unless it does no damage. So any enemy within line of effect can be hit by the damage. It's a good crowd control weapon.

A flayer to me, seems like some kind of hand held mini-gun. So it fires hyperaccelerated rounds very fast. Again good for crowd control. If aimed (warglory again), it can ignore any sort of dodge or speed bonus (except in excess of X) since it simply flies too fast to be dodged.

Automatic guns, under warglory can have two attack modes. Basic spread or 'squeeze off/concentrated'. Squeeze off/concentrated fire targets one space. But automatic weapons can never target one creature (it's always in spaces) - targeting one space improves damage since all the bullets in the attack are going into that space.

Automatic guns also behave like semi-automatics, in that you can attack twice per round - however you can't apply other feats to them such as 'rapid shot' or 'double tap', since they generally have automated cycling systems. So if a person's trigger finger flows faster then the number of rounds the gun can dispense in a second, then that's a problem for the person wielding it - which is why automatic guns aren't always for expert shooters; usually just high hp dudes with minimal weapons training that can stand out in the open and cover fire. Granted, some automatics can have hairline triggers and operate much like both a semi and an automatic.

A basic spread essentially attacks a number of spaces that the gun is supposed to attack listed in its weapon description. The higher the RPM, the higher the damage.

Gauss guns typically ignore hardness because they fly so fast - also they depend almost entirely on RPM for greater damage (unless it's an artillery class round it's firing; which can eviscerate or quash, simply because the round itself might be bigger than the person it is shot at).

So a guass gun is very good anti-vehicular. It might ignore the rule that ranged weapons only do half damage to hardness and object hp for purposes of damage dealt to the Core Hp (the vehicle's vitals) and it might critically threaten very high against vehicles or even auto-crit on absolute aim (but not necessarily coup de grace) if the shooter generally knows where the vitals of a vehicle is located. Absolute aiming requires a full action though.

This rule also applies, not for doing damage to a vehicle's structure Hp (the damage needed to tear it in half so that it can't move and must be re-crafted essentially), but for bypassing a vehicle's hardness so that the damage can get at passengers and the driver of the vehicle. Meaning a gauss gun is excellent for vehicular snipers that target drivers.
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Hope this was all interpreted well.

EDIT: You forgot flamethrowers!

Essentially they should work like breath weapons - maybe some anti-armor chemical flame combination should allow them to do acid damage as well (specific armor can defend against this with acid resistance though).

A very experienced GM can allow the influence of weapons like bombs, artillery and flamethrowers to modify terrain - so fires could sprout up in certain spaces or craters can suddenly appear to provide cover if you move into them (ducking down would give total cover).

Icedaemon
2010-09-19, 06:39 PM
Necron weapons, while carring a 'gauss' moniker, are not actually railguns. The best explanation that one can provide to obsessive D&D players would probably be 'recharging wand of disintegration'.

Isak
2010-09-19, 10:38 PM
Necron weapons, while carring a 'gauss' moniker, are not actually railguns. The best explanation that one can provide to obsessive D&D players would probably be 'recharging wand of disintegration'.

Correct. A Necron Gauss weapon doesn't shoot hypervelocity projectiles... It tears molecules apart. It literally FLAYS the victim, molecule by molecule.


Gauss Weaponry is used by the Necrons and are horrifying devices. They are magnetically based weapons that break down the target into its component molecules layer by layer and attract the molecules back to the gun at incredible speed. This creates a flaying effect and can vaporise the most heavily armored warrior or blast a hole in a Land Raider. This means that even the most basic Necron Warrior has a chance to blast a hole through the heaviest armor and completely vaporise the most skilled Space Marine.
- http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gauss_Weaponry


As for the mention of Lasguns earlier... They aren't actually laser weapons. It's just very concentrated bolts of energy, powerful enough to punch through a human-sized target, and hot enough to instantly cauterize the wound. Very "Humane", actually, as far as weapons in Warhammer 40k are concerned.

Siosilvar
2010-09-19, 10:58 PM
-stuff-:Shuriken catapults fire monofilament shuriken made of "plasticrystal" (aka magic).

Bolters fire miniature HEAP tank shells tipped with adamantine. Hellfire rounds replace the "depleted deuterium" (I am not making this up; legend has it GW screwed it up and then ran with it) with an extremely potent acid/poison - to the point where it will kill most any infantry unit (even Terminators) 5/6 of hits. (this being because it wounds on 2+ and most infantry has 1 wound)

Also, 1 40k Strength is probably around 3-4 damage:
A lascannon is strength 9. d20 Future lists a heavy laser at 8d8 damage (36).
A railgun is strength 10. d20 Future lists a rail cannon at 6d12 damage (39).
A lasgun is strength 3. d20 Future lists a laser rifle at 3d8 damage (13.5).
Laspistol is also S3 but given 3d6 damage (10.5).
Heavy stubber (equivalent to an actual machine gun) is S4 and a heavy machine gun has 2d12 damage (13).
Sniper rifle is S3 and 2d12 damage.

EDIT:

So 1 Strength is about 4 damage, 1" range is probably a 5' or 10' range increment, and make up your own rate of fire and crit stats (although I imagine AP would play into critical hits).

imp_fireball
2010-09-20, 02:20 AM
Necron weapons, while carring a 'gauss' moniker, are not actually railguns. The best explanation that one can provide to obsessive D&D players would probably be 'recharging wand of disintegration'.

You fail on both fronts, unfortunately.

Rail guns and gauss guns generally serve the same function (hyper acceleration of ammo; they both use the same scientific principle - the only difference is that the actual components are different; also rails can't usually be made for small arms - that's the theory anyway).

Disintegrating someone to ash and ignoring all hardness no matter how much hardness it actually is (even if it's the nigh-infinitely dense 5000+ hardness neo-steel-tritanium-poly-whatever wall or a 10,000+ hardness battleship force field normally made to deflect the pressure of a precision nuclear warhead's explosion) makes no sense.


Correct. A Necron Gauss weapon doesn't shoot hypervelocity projectiles... It tears molecules apart. It literally FLAYS the victim, molecule by molecule.

That... that is just fluff. You can't flay someone molecule by molecule - it just seems that way. It's the result of very high RPM and the fact that the rounds fly very very fast (probably creating many small shock waves throughout the body; so a sustained firing on a target causes it to appear as if gradually falling apart into dust in slow motion).

If the characters say 'oh my emperor, he is being flayed apart molecule by molecule!' they're saying that because it really looks that way and quotes of imperium technoists aren't the best valid scientific reference. The imperium has all the technology sure, but they're in the dark ages - everything in regards to knowledge and theory is falling apart along with human life in general.


Shuriken catapults fire monofilament shuriken made of "plasticrystal" (aka magic).

:smallsigh: 40k doesn't use magic. Even eldar 'witches' use psionics.

Monofilament shuriken/whatever means it gets through hardness. It means it might critically threaten slightly higher (like a keen weapon). Something that can retain structure while being mono-molecular at its edge (without losing sharpness when touched by so much as a paint brush) indicates incredible structural density of the alloy itself. Hence, it bypasses more hardness and is good for getting through vehicles and heavy armor. No extra damage.

Although maybe a very large mono-filament razor (or so much as a trip wire) could probably cut a vehicle in half - would be good for vehicular coup de graces (a special ability of any mono filament weapon).

An electrically powered monofilament blender is also quite potent - it can cause a finger to explode if you even so much as brush it lightly with said finger.



"Do NOT touch that Johnny! Your finger could explode if you even so much as brush that mono filament blender lightly with said finger!"

"Um... okay. Guess I won't then."

"Not while it is ON."

"Sir, right then."

"Nor while it is OFF either, of which condition it currently is in. That is also foolish."

"Yessir, I-ah got it sir."


If you apply any accidental force of a finger to a razor, the finger would probably just come clean off - even if you are wearing a metal gauntlet. You don't take 20 damage when you lose a finger - it won't kill you instantly.

If anything, it is only 1 damage or even no damage (conversely, breaking a leg, which would immobilize any wimp in real life - is just non-lethal damage; it could never kill you outright unless you suffocated due to being in so much pain - which is possible in the real world; even then, suffocation takes more than one round).

D&D RAW (nor modern) doesn't cover being disabled from losing a limb or mandible (and it'd be that much more rules slogging if it did; especially when applying to regular attacks and damage - instead assume that the character is just hardy enough to adapt quickly or that they took damage elsewhere).

If you feel like giving attention to all of the above circumstances I listed - don't. It'd slog up a lot of what you are doing.
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I don't want to argue fanboism. Please.

I'm not trying to antagonize - this is just a natural defense mechanism for the sake of intelligent discussion of fluff (and not assumption).
------


Bolters fire miniature HEAP tank shells tipped with adamantine. Hellfire rounds replace the "depleted deuterium" (I am not making this up; legend has it GW screwed it up and then ran with it) with an extremely potent acid/poison - to the point where it will kill most any infantry unit (even Terminators) 5/6 of hits. (this being because it wounds on 2+ and most infantry has 1 wound)

'Kay, so acid and fire damage + armor piercing applying to the ammo and not the gun (bypasses hardness).

The damage itself doesn't change. Terminators are just genetically modified soldiers in bigger armor (maybe one or more HD above normal space marines; ordinary space marines are probably 5 or so HD reflecting incredible toughness for a human - named are obviously tougher with PC levels, reflecting toughness beyond the most bad ass human in the real world).

Space marine armor has X hardness (it's bullet proofed and made of metal allowing it to lessen the impact of any sort of damage), atmosphere (life support, AKA breathe anywhere, and immunity to vacuum), boosted strength and special features - ie. jump packs (allows temporary flight with Y maneuvering), shock proof (bludgeoning resistance), resistance to falling damage. Comm link allows squad comm or battalion comm or whatever. Biofoam (or whatever 40k uses) seals up wounds and armor-sealant foam/whatever closes environ breaches (so atmosphere effects aren't compromised by regular piercing and slashing damage getting through armor) and stabilizes a marine automatically. A wearer might also have a greater run multiplier in space marine armor.

Terminator armor is just bigger space marine armor - maybe it increases the wearer's size category by one. It has much greater armor check penalty and severely reduces maneuvering by lowering the maximum dexterity bonus into the negatives (for those that don't believe in max dex bonus, you can rule that it simply lowers dexterity). Terminator armor is good for tanking PCs that buff up in boat loads of hp.

Dreadnaughts are large (or huge?) with powerful build and pilot controlled weapons. Of course, the pilot needs to be permanently grafted to the vehicle for some reason. It's a 'mech', so it's a vehicle that behaves much like a construct creature of its shape.

Chain sword is just a longsword, but it can do much more damage on a grapple (and during a pin, the enemy takes major damage as their entire body gets cut up by serration and spinning/vibration/whatever). It's also made of a certain metal allowing it to ignore some hardness (so you can stab through powered armor or whatever).

The chain sword also has a higher critical threat rating due to its cutting power - on a critical threat, a wielder can (instead of rolling to critically confirm) elect to initiate a free action grapple with the target that does not provoke attacks of opportunity (say, they impale someone; they can then start sawing away without pulling out as the target tries to fight back; and they can also press the target into a pin to immobilize them and saw away with abandon).



Regarding modern-era machine guns

To be fair, the higher caliber, the higher the RPM, and the lower the velocity (as long as it isn't too low that it impedes a round's ability to bounce around a target's innards) the greater the damage.

So many ork weapons would be great for mopping up common infantry with heavy spread damage but are terrible against hardness - space marine armor, with its hardness specialized to ignore piercing damage (provided it doesn't ignore the hardness automatically due to some quality like higher velocity or armor piercing) as well as bludgeoning and slashing damage, etc. could defeat a lot of ork small arms and even some turrets.

Ork's are big cheapos with a love for seeing their enemies explode so their weapons would be big in the damage - most infantry (level 1 warrior guardsmen and traitor guardsmen, etc.; even ones that succeed on reflex saves to avoid an automatic's spread) would get killed instantly.

Ork guns are also very loud (even louder than bolters in some cases - like for turrets) and are thus great for covering fire (provides morale AC bonus to nearby targets) and lowering the morale of an opposing force.

Lix Lorn
2010-09-20, 04:47 AM
Actually, I'm pretty sure that necron Gauss weapons DO in fact flay the victim. I believe it might be fluffed as some sort of gravitational effect.

Isak
2010-09-20, 06:28 AM
That... that is just fluff. You can't flay someone molecule by molecule - it just seems that way. It's the result of very high RPM and the fact that the rounds fly very very fast (probably creating many small shock waves throughout the body; so a sustained firing on a target causes it to appear as if gradually falling apart into dust in slow motion).

If the characters say 'oh my emperor, he is being flayed apart molecule by molecule!' they're saying that because it really looks that way and quotes of imperium technoists aren't the best valid scientific reference. The imperium has all the technology sure, but they're in the dark ages - everything in regards to knowledge and theory is falling apart along with human life in general.

See... That's the thing about Necron. Yes, it's all Fluff, but in WH40K, they are the most technically advanced race. No questions asked.

Technology that strips layers of molecules apart, others that allow the user to slow down time itself; Ships that can Physically move faster than light (Where-as all other spacecraft in WH40K need to move through The Warp). Living, self repairing metal. Very angry, Star Eating Gods created the Necron. To wipe out all life. They made their toys well. :smalltongue:


(Back on topic, I could see Necron weaponry having a property similar to Vorpal, except with Limbs and not heads. It still gives the whole "Holy $@#%! His arm just fell off!" reaction; but doesn't mean the weapon has to be insanely powerful damage-wise.)

Fingerlessfist
2010-09-20, 06:47 AM
@:imp, fluff or not, I'm pretty sure a Necron Gauss weapon doesn't actually fire bullets so much as disgenerate it's target with bolts of green death, as seen here.
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/4086/290730-5_super.jpg
I think the Gauss you are thinking of is from Mech-Warrior, and as fair as I know those do actually hyper-accelerate bullets.

Next, as far as I know, the Necrons are pretty much on the cusp of sufficient advanced, so they might be able to actually flay molecules as described.

applying real physic like the square cube law and in your case, weak (was it weak for molecules? i think so...) radioactive force, just doesn't work for WH40k. Like, maybe other fiction, but not WH40k

As for properties.... maybe vorpal, but for armor,and then limbs, and when a target is killed it's disgenerated?

Oslecamo
2010-09-20, 07:09 AM
Disintegrating someone to ash and ignoring all hardness no matter how much hardness it actually is (even if it's the nigh-infinitely dense 5000+ hardness neo-steel-tritanium-poly-whatever wall or a 10,000+ hardness battleship force field normally made to deflect the pressure of a precision nuclear warhead's explosion) makes no sense.

Welcome to 40K!:smallbiggrin:



That... that is just fluff. You can't flay someone molecule by molecule - it just seems that way. It's the result of very high RPM and the fact that the rounds fly very very fast (probably creating many small shock waves throughout the body; so a sustained firing on a target causes it to appear as if gradually falling apart into dust in slow motion).

Nope, both fluff and rules say they're disintregation wands. Even in the game gauss flayer doesn't care if you're firing at a simple rhino or an reinforced adamantine land raider, it has the same chance of hurting them.




:smallsigh: 40k doesn't use magic. Even eldar 'witches' use psionics.

Chaos sorcerors would like a word with you. In case you missed it 40K tries to cram every fantasy and sci-fi trope on the same place so we have the spanish inquisition fighting space troops fighting zombie-robots fighting gods fighting elves fighting WW II armies fighting orcs ect ect.:smalltongue:




I'm not trying to antagonize - this is just a natural defense mechanism for the sake of intelligent discussion of fluff (and not assumption).

The fluff is not intelegent. 40K runs on the rules of cool and grimdarkness. The authors throw whatever they want on their stories and physics/logic be damned as long as the ultramarines are left alive and the emprah is in a quantic state of life/death.

The necrons in particular have hyper advanced tecnology+star eating gods, what's the problem with them having disintregation wands?:smallamused:

LCP
2010-09-20, 07:19 AM
Yup - Gauss in 40K is not the same reference from our world, there was meant to have been a Tech-Priest or some such chap called 'Gauss' who ended up giving his name to the weapons (at least, from the Imperial side... goodness knows what the Necrons call 'em).

No-one's about to claim that Necron weaponry makes sense according to modern physics - but neither does the rest of 40K. Looking for scientific realism in Warhammer is never going to end well. And that's speaking as a physicist.


40k doesn't use magic. Even eldar 'witches' use psionics.

This cracks me up. Magic by any other name is just as made-up as your traditional wizards with pointy hats.

imp_fireball
2010-09-20, 09:45 AM
Actually, I'm pretty sure that necron Gauss weapons DO in fact flay the victim. I believe it might be fluffed as some sort of gravitational effect.

Yah... unless it actually says so, don't assume.


Yup - Gauss in 40K is not the same reference from our world, there was meant to have been a Tech-Priest or some such chap called 'Gauss' who ended up giving his name to the weapons (at least, from the Imperial side... goodness knows what the Necrons call 'em).

That is... very confusing.

Can't we at least assume that 40k obeys soft-sci fi?


This cracks me up. Magic by any other name is just as made-up as your traditional wizards with pointy hats.

So? That's how it is in D&D.


@:imp, fluff or not, I'm pretty sure a Necron Gauss weapon doesn't actually fire bullets so much as disgenerate it's target with bolts of green death, as seen here.

<insert more info about them being sufficiently advanced species>

Fiiiine. That just makes them 'extraordinary' rather then 'mundane'. So all their weapons, equipment and vehicles are extraordinary, and cannot be replicated except through some psionic power - even with the highest reverse engineer check known to man.

A gauss flayer should still work like how I prescribed (maybe instead do force damage to represent the fact that it is 'green death' and ignore up to X hardness but have nothing naturally resistant to it except straight hardness and Tarrasques) - otherwise, the players will be all 'oh crap it's the necrons! Don't send in the space marines! Especially don't send in our 200km wide/long battleships because they'll drop like flies when the necrons target the core hp of our vehicles and gut our marines like fish in one round.'

To be fair, that'd happen anyway regarding infantry - but the necrons should be obliterated by sufficient torque from vehicles - say a heavy tank.

Lix Lorn
2010-09-20, 09:55 AM
Yah... unless it actually says so, don't assume.


Can't we at least assume that 40k obeys soft-sci fi?
I rest my case.

imp_fireball
2010-09-20, 09:56 AM
Chaos sorcerors would like a word with you. In case you missed it 40K tries to cram every fantasy and sci-fi trope on the same place so we have the spanish inquisition fighting space troops fighting zombie-robots fighting gods fighting elves fighting WW II armies fighting orcs ect ect.

Hey I know, I know.

But it's gotta have some convention - like psionics = everything.


I rest my case.

Noooo you have located my weakness.

Zaydos
2010-09-20, 09:57 AM
Also with D&D psionics is magic, or close enough thanks to magic-psionics transparency.

Mulletmanalive
2010-09-20, 10:33 AM
Gauss weapons have had two meanings in 40k:

In the earliest versions, they were gravitically charged, magnetically accellerated beams of nuetrons that stripped the target apart like the world's most evil sandblaster. This fulfills the name Gauss as it's simply a tribute to the guy who determined the math for particle accelleration in magnetic fields for particle accellerators.

That is the version that was used in the cannon after Gav Thrope used it in the =][=nquisitor rulebook.

More recently, with Dawn of War, they've become some kind of strong field disruptor weapon based on gravity [i know how wrong that sounds but bear with me] or electromagnetism. Assuming the second, it's still a Gauss weapon as it's creating particle accelleration using magnets.

Gauss is not a defined technical term; it's a nickname so we shouldn't talk about semantics, or at least you should get your terms right: Gauss refers to Coilguns with their suspended field accelleration, rather than the electric moment forces of a Railgun.

Oslecamo
2010-09-20, 12:18 PM
But it's gotta have some convention - like psionics = everything.


In my view, 40K has several varieties, just like D&D.

We have the "typical" psionics used by the humies and eldars.

Then we have chaos sorcery, wich can be directly blocked by anti-psionics, but good luck blocking that daemon's magic flaming axe that the sorceror summoned.

Then we have the orks WWWWAAAAGGGGHHH!!! that basically makes whatever they want and 99% of the times ignores anti-psionics, but it's very very unstable.

Can they interact? Yes. But that doesn't mean they're the same.

Back to necrons, more than any other race they're the OMGWTF of 40K. Even spech merines will prefer to go pick reinforcments rather than to face necrons in equal numbers. Necrons always strike in small forces and yet deliver massive damage to the other factions. They're the only enemy faction that actualy managed to enter Mars despite all the Imperium defenses.

Thus their basic weapons, gauss flayers, should by all means be minor artifacts that can sink battleships if they get too close.

And that's when you send the guardsmen waves to keep the necrons entertained while you aim your big guns from behind.

imp_fireball
2010-09-20, 05:54 PM
More recently, with Dawn of War, they've become some kind of strong field disruptor weapon based on gravity [i know how wrong that sounds but bear with me] or electromagnetism. Assuming the second, it's still a Gauss weapon as it's creating particle accelleration using magnets.


But people here apparently want to rule that it fires 'green death' - so I'd go with it being 'shaped' anti-matter via an undiscovered principle of quantum physics (also might create or invoke 'gravitons'; so it might still use gravity for particle acceleration collected via some kind of magneting device). By controlling the anti-matter they can control the way it converts matter to energy - not all at once in a massive explosion, but slowly and more directed - perhaps with advanced object-recognition software or what have you. So they aim a beam at something and it fades into dust or some other energy (like light or nuclear energy or whatever) or whatever. Maybe they collect it to help them survive (isn't that in the fluff already?).

Mechanics wise - force damage. Ignores all hardness unless a psionic power or ability can deflect it.


Then we have chaos sorcery, wich can be directly blocked by anti-psionics, but good luck blocking that daemon's magic flaming axe that the sorceror summoned.

Then we have the orks WWWWAAAAGGGGHHH!!! that basically makes whatever they want and 99% of the times ignores anti-psionics, but it's very very unstable.

Can they interact? Yes. But that doesn't mean they're the same.

So - daemon magic could rely on negative energy. An anti-psionics barrier might provide power resistance, but some daemon magic is also magic in regards to D&D or possibly similar to warlock invocations. I'm sure most chaos sorcerers tend to blast forth random chaotic energy now and then... make a warlock variant and call it a chaos sorcerer.

It's invocations are 'warp mutations' (maybe introduce some new invocations for chaotic aligned warlocks too - while it's meant for 40k it could translate over to D&D, but the actual 'chaos sorcerer' warlock variant is likely to require association with 'the forces of chaos and the ember eye/whatever that thing is called').

Some chaos sorcerers can also be straight sorcerers - invent a few new spells to reflect the warp - likely associated with chaos and entropy (random effect happens; like the commonly seen luck bonuses but 'more evil' with something called 'entropy bonus' with a miss or success indicating a fumble chart or 'attack ally or self' or whatever, etc.). And of course, some are wizards (curious acolytes reading into demonology) and clerics with the chaos domain (a few other invented domains), evil paladin variants (reflects some chaos marines) and psions.

The grey knights could be witch hunter paladins of a sort - paladin variant focused on anti-magic and anti-supernatural in general and can overcome most any damage reduction and banish with smites and even avoid triggering contingencies - higher tier than regular paladin likely.

The orks could have something called 'ork psionics' - which is essentially just wild magic - there'd be a lot of ork war mages and wilders. Also ork wilders could get a feat to give them a bonus on overcoming PR because of the 'great green wagh' or whatever (or maybe an ork racial substitution level or more for wilder).

Also ork reverse engineering and defying the laws of physics by painting things red to make them go faster. Mek boys can modify weapons quickly right on the battlefield - becoming a mek boy is just a feat though since all it involves is craft checks and such (I can imagine the mad spark eccentric on this board would make for a very powerful mek boy).

The best the orks can muster though are arcanists and very good ork substitution levels for barbarian and war blade and such. They could even have their own maneuver discipline (although an existing home brew one might cover it just fine).
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Check out my extended signature - in there is a section on what I initially wrote up for 40k in d20 D&D.

I also proposed a bloodline for orks - basically an ork that is strong enough generally increases their size and gets a few other abilities - but it's a bit more limiting from a certain viewpoint... unless maybe you combine it with a new ork discipline, ork-psionic powers, etc.

Though I already proposed that mekboys specifically can defy physics - one of their simplest tech mods is to paint a vehicle red to, of course, increase its top speed.


Thus their basic weapons, gauss flayers, should by all means be minor artifacts that can sink battleships if they get too close.

Well, if an imperium battleship has so little Hp (given that the flayer gets through all hardness), then yah, one shot would sink it. But I think a battle barge, let alone a battleship knows how to compensate for hull breeches and such. Also, they tend to be high orbit right?

I suppose when necrons arrive it's a case of 'get away' for the PCs.
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Hey, I've got stats for a spess muhreen drop pod.

Drop Pod
Size Huge (Object, Vehicle)
Structure Hardness/Hp (30/80)
Core Hardness/Hp (10/20)
Capacity - 10 medium passengers or 4 large passengers or 1 Huge
Special: Fire Proof, Shock Proof, Co-op Piloting, Thrust, Fast Exit
Maneuvering: Clumsy (45 degree turns cost 20ft. of movement; Turn number 200)
Move: 2000ft. (descent only)

Fire Proof (50%)

Fire damage must do quadruple damage (minimum 4 fire damage, round down) to get through structure hardness and Hp.

Shock Proof (10%, 25%)

Bludgeoning damage must do 10x its damage in order to get through structure Hardness and Hp and 4x its damage to get through core Hardness and Hp respectively. Bludgeoning damage dealt to the vehicle is dealt 50% to the wearers (provided it gets through the vehicle's hardness).

Impact Proof

Because falling damage relates to impact, it is considered bludgeoning damage - only 10% of the damage that normally applies on a fall applies to the drop pod.

Co-op Piloting

Passengers in the drop pod can all see out of the pod. Anyone of them can take over in piloting, as they all have their own consoles - but note that only one can effectively apply his aid another competence bonus to the pilot check.

Thrust

The drop pod has only one speed - which is its top speed. The moment it begins moving, it accelerates to top speed in effectively the next move action that anyone performs. Anyone who reacts to this acceleration must roll initiative higher than 30 to react before it has achieved any distance.

Hence, a drop pod can move up to 1000ft. upon the round that it begins movement, and 2000ft. thereafter - however it often moves downwards, achieving speeds of up to 2300ft. in holy terra (earth) gravity.

It accelerates with a torque of 150 strength. While moving, it has a +16 circumstantial dodge bonus due to its speed and any attacks made from it have a -16 penalty - this also stacks with its effective strength modifier provided by its torque.

Fast Exit

All four doors of the pod open up immediately upon landing, allowing passengers to typically poor out and exit in just 20ft. of movement.
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So here's how it goes down. The drop pod descends at a rate of 2,300ft. per round. When it hits the ground, it suffers 153d6 bludgeoning damage. It rolls 1d20 to see if the damage critically confirms (with a natural 20 making it so) - if it does, then the damage applies to both the core and the structure and the vehicle will probably be inoperable.

As it stands, the most damage it can take from such a brutal fall is 918 Bludgeoning - that damage is divided by 2 (since the vehicle is an object) and then divided by 10 again (shock proof), rounding up to about 46 Bludgeoning damage to the pod - the pod takes some minor damage from the fall.

When the pod lands, the space marines suffer little to no damage - 23 damage isn't enough to get through their shock proof armor (which may require x2 or x4 damage for its 10 hardness), not to mention they themselves may or may not be a bit shock proof - but it depends on what being a space marine actually offers.

Finally, space marines typically ready an action to exit when the pod doors open - and since the pod doors open immediately upon landing along with the fastenings that keep the space marines extra shock proof and immobile inside, they can exit and climb out of a crater fairly quickly and then roll initiative (so no height advantage for the enemy unless they happened to ready an action to attack the marines as they came out and saw the pod coming down ahead of time).

A GM can also easily rule that 900 damage is the force of a (very) small meteorite - hence, its going to create a shock wave that does some bludgeoning damage or at least dazes nearby creatures in a radius.