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DDRNick
2010-09-19, 07:36 PM
What do you guys thing about it since it recently came out?

I haven't read it yet because we are planning to start it up next week but could anyone tell me if there are a lot of "save ends" against the characters in that module?

Tyndmyr
2010-09-19, 07:41 PM
I would be disappointed if there was. That's generally not in the spirit of the original tomb of horrors, where, if you are lucky, you get to save for your life to not end.

sambo.
2010-09-19, 08:55 PM
it's been a good long while since i traipsed through the gygaxian death trap known as The Tomb Of Horrors (i'm talking 1ed).

i ran a group through it in 2ed and havn't been in there for 3ed.

from memory, the 1ed and 2ed versions were basically identical. i'd be very peeved if the ToH has lost any of it's insane levels of nastiness.

it's the module a DM reaches for when he either A: wants to teach the PCs a lesson or B: wants the acmpaign to end so they can start afresh.

if you venture in there, i suggest investing heavily in wands of Find Traps and wands of Find Secret Doors.

use them with abandon.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-19, 08:59 PM
it's been a good long while since i traipsed through the gygaxian death trap known as The Tomb Of Horrors (i'm talking 1ed).

i ran a group through it in 2ed and havn't been in there for 3ed.

from memory, the 1ed and 2ed versions were basically identical. i'd be very peeved if the ToH has lost any of it's insane levels of nastiness.

it's the module a DM reaches for when he either A: wants to teach the PCs a lesson or B: wants the acmpaign to end so they can start afresh.

if you venture in there, i suggest investing heavily in wands of Find Traps and wands of Find Secret Doors.

use them with abandon.

You wouldn't like 3e tomb of horrors, and I'd guess you wouldn't like 4e tomb of horrors. Haven't looked at it, but instant death and save or die are foreign concepts to 4e.


Edit: The Sphere of anihilation is no longer an instant kill. Yep, they ****ed it up.

cupkeyk
2010-09-19, 09:15 PM
You wouldn't like 3e tomb of horrors, and I'd guess you wouldn't like 4e tomb of horrors. Haven't looked at it, but instant death and save or die are foreign concepts to 4e.


Edit: The Sphere of anihilation is no longer an instant kill. Yep, they ****ed it up.

But MM1 has a monster with a death on hit. The Oni soul eater is a heroic level monster with a death on hit, too. You just haven't playing enough.

Anyhoot, ToH4e is designed for 4e. It is not DM vs. PC, and the DM's goal is not to kill as many players as possible. That said, yeah the save or dies are gone. And so are the instadeath traps. But if the party does not cooperate they will deplete their resources very fast.

It has a lot of Fire and Necrotic Damage, for some odd raeson. So a tiefling and deva party will survive better than any other, but that's probably a fluke.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-19, 09:18 PM
But MM1 has a monster with a death on hit. The Oni soul eater is a heroic level monster with a death on hit, too. You just haven't playing enough.

Anyhoot, ToH4e is designed for 4e. It is not DM vs. PC, and the DM's goal is not to kill as many players as possible. That said, yeah the save or dies are gone. And so are the instadeath traps. But if the party does not cooperate they will deplete their resources very fast.

It has a lot of Fire and Necrotic Damage, for some odd raeson. So a tiefling and deva party will survive better than any other, but that's probably a fluke.

Yeah, I pretty much only play during encounters. It's still few and far between.
Plus, I heard Acererak was taken down a few levels.

And the sphere of gygax? They made it not insta-death? Really?

"You fell into a sphere of anihilation... er, roll a save at the end of your turn"
"11"
"FFFFUUUUUUUU-"

Blackfang108
2010-09-19, 09:24 PM
And the sphere of gygax? They made it not insta-death? Really?


Yeah. Just look at DMG1, where the sphere was printed. (This is OLD NEWS, people.)

Katana_Geldar
2010-09-19, 10:09 PM
The sphere is in a different statues mouth in a different dungeon, and as far as I recall it's three failed saves and you turn to dust.

But I like the super adventure Tomb of Horrors, that statue packs quite a wallop and one of my players thought that the encounter with the tents (to which I added a homebrew gazebo to up the XP) was a joke until I let him peep at the notes.

I am enjoying running this module more than I have enjoyed DMing before and think it goes back to what Gary was trying to achieve in making the players think and second guess. After the statue encounter, they were too terrified to choose a direction to go in next without poking the walls of the cave with a long spear.

What I love is how all the "mythology" surrounding the ToH has been more or less combined, even to the point where this Deadly Dungeon of Doomy Dooms actually existed many years ago. I added that it's a story many adventurers tell each other but no one is sure what to believe or even if it's true.

RebelRogue
2010-09-19, 10:13 PM
Yeah. Just look at DMG1, where the sphere was printed. (This is OLD NEWS, people.)
6d6 + 10 damage and ongoing 15 damage (save ends) isn't exactly a picnic, either.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-19, 10:15 PM
6d6 + 10 damage and ongoing 15 damage (save ends) isn't exactly a picnic, either.

But nothing beats a "You're character is dead and nothing short of a god can save you... get some d6's" to petrify a player.

WitchSlayer
2010-09-19, 10:17 PM
I've heard that 4e has given Tomb of Horrors a bit of it's fangs back after the 3e version. That said, I briefly read through the module and there are a LOT of things that makes your equipment disappear and teleports it to the final room, which can really screw you over. Also there's something that changes your alignment and gender, which is priceless.

DeltaEmil
2010-09-19, 10:21 PM
Playability means almost survivable damage. If you are comfortable with it, you can still make every dangerous encounter in 4th edition an instant-death no-save as it were in older editions if you want (just as you will do in 5th, 6th, 7th and all the other future editions).

Keep in mind that in most cases, instant-death no-save situations aren't fun for the majority anymore, they're just annoying after a few times.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-19, 10:24 PM
I've heard that 4e has given Tomb of Horrors a bit of it's fangs back after the 3e version. That said, I briefly read through the module and there are a LOT of things that makes your equipment disappear and teleports it to the final room, which can really screw you over. Also there's something that changes your alignment and gender, which is priceless.

Both are in the 3e module.

Katana_Geldar
2010-09-19, 10:41 PM
Playability means almost survivable damage. If you are comfortable with it, you can still make every dangerous encounter in 4th edition an instant-death no-save as it were in older editions if you want (just as you will do in 5th, 6th, 7th and all the other future editions).


Try a +19 attack with 3d10+11 damage in the second encounter. Not fun...well for players, I found it hilarious.

Katana_Geldar
2010-09-20, 03:57 AM
Here it is, as I thought it would be.

Page 65, encounter S1, the blind devourer which is a sphere of annihilation. 4d6+5 damage and 10 ongoing save ends. If it reduces you to 0 hitpoints you are dust. The attack is a trigger whenever someone enters it.

Best part? You actually need to disable it for each player so they can go through the doorway behind the sphere and it reforms within a round as there's no other way out of the room.

WitchSlayer
2010-09-20, 04:01 AM
Both are in the 3e module.

I didn't say 3e didn't have those, I'm saying that I heard 4e increased the lethality of Tomb of Horrors after 3e. I'm saying those are great. I'm actually running my players through the Tomb once they get to paragon tier

Katana_Geldar
2010-09-20, 04:23 AM
You want to make it a challenge for them? Start them in the module before they hit Paragon. I have 8 players going through it at level 10.

WitchSlayer
2010-09-20, 04:29 AM
You want to make it a challenge for them? Start them in the module before they hit Paragon. I have 8 players going through it at level 10.

I only have 4 players, but that might be an idea, although I'm planning to have them hit Paragon after the first part of the adventure I'm putting through is done. I'm also somewhat worried about them, as they've had some trouble with surviving. I'm not making the encounters too hard, just a combination of bad rolls and bad placement causes them to get slaughtered.

Kurald Galain
2010-09-20, 04:50 AM
What do you guys thing about it since it recently came out?
Well, it's an interesting adventure, but it doesn't feel like the Tomb of Horrors. Mind you, this may be a good thing. There's very little in the adventure that is actually lethal.

Note that there are two TOH adventures that came out more or less at the same time. One is a short-ish heroic-tier module sent for free to all RPGA DMs; the other is a longer paragon-tier adventure available in stores. They're not identical at all.


could anyone tell me if there are a lot of "save ends" against the characters in that module?
Not all that many, honestly. I had a leader character and didn't get to use my "make a save" power all that often.

DDRNick
2010-09-20, 07:32 AM
You want to make it a challenge for them? Start them in the module before they hit Paragon. I have 8 players going through it at level 10.

Yeah that's what we're doing, we're taking 4-5 people in at 10th level.
I'll just go warden and run down the hallways :smallbiggrin:

Katana_Geldar
2010-09-20, 06:01 PM
That way when they hit Paragon, they have some idea of what is in store for them. Of course, they don't find out about Acererak until the third dungeon with the aforementioned devourer.

ninja_penguin
2010-09-20, 06:12 PM
Our group is playing. There are no instagibs in a 'you are dead' manner, but we've apparently missed one trap that would have vaporized all our gear and teleported us into another room with monsters in it.

Also, our Drow Rogue solved a puzzle where he had two options. He picked the one that opened a door. The other lead to a 100 foot drop (10d10 damage), and this is at level 10.

My Dwarf Cleric and the Half-orc Barbarian also barely managed to avoid from falling down a shaft that was on fire that apparently lead to a 'you die if you touch this' portal to the plane of elemental fire.

Katana_Geldar
2010-09-20, 06:21 PM
You sure you're playing the same module? I'm talking about the Super Adventure or is this the conversion?

Kurald Galain
2010-09-20, 06:25 PM
The other lead to a 100 foot drop (10d10 damage), and this is at level 10.
A 10th level character has a minimum of 54 hit points (10 base + 8 con + 9*4 for level), so this fall cannot kill him and will on average not even knock him unconscious.

That's what I meant when I said that "there's very little in the adventure that is actually lethal." And mind you, I think that's a good thing because the you-arbitrarily-die-haha spirit of the original TOH doesn't strike me as fun for anyone but the DM.

I'm also reasonably certain that the "vaporize your gear" and the "die if you touch this" traps do not actually do that, but rather "remove your gear (save ends)" and "take 10 damage per round if you touch this until you die", or something like that.

Katana_Geldar
2010-09-20, 06:31 PM
Funny, I got a different message from Gary from the original. You only arbitraily die if you rush in and act without thinking first. And poking stuff.

Sir_Elderberry
2010-09-20, 06:33 PM
Your gear isn't vaporized, it's teleported into Acererak's room.

ninja_penguin
2010-09-20, 06:41 PM
Your gear isn't vaporized, it's teleported into Acererak's room.

Well, or DM is messing with us, or is not spoiling things for us.

And well it's true that 10d10 doesn't automatically kill you, you're still down a 100 foot shaft.

Katana_Geldar
2010-09-20, 06:46 PM
Oh dear, you seem to have fallen down a 100ft shaft, are you all right?

Skorj
2010-09-20, 06:49 PM
Funny, I got a different message from Gary from the original. You only arbitraily die if you rush in and act without thinking first. And poking stuff.

In the 1E ToH, was there any way to defeat the end boss without peeking at the DM's notes?

I recall you needed a sequence of basically arbitrary spells to kill him, and I don't remember any clues about the spells to use available anywhere. Weren't they SoL spells in an edition when no one took SoL spells?

Katana_Geldar
2010-09-20, 06:52 PM
There were a rather specific number of ways you could hurt Acererak. I don't have them in front of me but there were a few ways you coulc chip away at his fake hp.

The best one I think was the Paladin with a vorpal sword.

But is was basically trial and error...and hope Acererak didn't try and eat you soul before you smashed him. :smalleek:

Kurald Galain
2010-09-20, 07:08 PM
Funny, I got a different message from Gary from the original. You only arbitraily die if you rush in and act without thinking first. And poking stuff.
Sure. If he said otherwise, he'd never get anyone to play it. While rushing in does get you killed in short order, there are several places where you don't have enough information to know the correct action, so you have to guess, and guessing wrongly has... consequences...

There is a reason why each subsequent release of the TOH toned it down :smallbiggrin:

Katana_Geldar
2010-09-20, 07:11 PM
He chose....poorly. :smallbiggrin:

Kurald Galain
2010-09-20, 07:15 PM
The best one I think was the Paladin with a vorpal sword.
Wait, how exactly does decapitation help against undead?

I've heard the best way was to use the disintegration rod trap from the previous room. Which, as I've heard, was not what Gary intended, but he allowed it. Once.

Katana_Geldar
2010-09-20, 07:17 PM
The rod and the crown can't be removed from the room now, that was an obvious rule patch from when he first ran it before it was published.

And it's not decapitation, but a pally with a vorpal sword. I think a fighter with a +4 sword can hurt it as well, and a thief slinging jewels at it knocks of 1hp for every so thousand of gp the gem was worth.

Skorj
2010-09-20, 08:18 PM
That's what I remember - the end boss was a shining example of how not to run D&D. It was strictly "Gary is thinking of a number between 1 and 100, guess the number or save vs death" (aka: "what do I have in my pocket" is a poor riddle). Getting to that point could be achived by sufficient paranoia and an unlimited supply of 10' poles (or kobold mine detectors), but I always assumed that distracting the DM long enough to peek at the end of the module was the expected solution to that final encounter - it might just have been the inspiration for the Kobayashi Maru.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-20, 08:22 PM
That's what I meant when I said that "there's very little in the adventure that is actually lethal." And mind you, I think that's a good thing because the you-arbitrarily-die-haha spirit of the original TOH doesn't strike me as fun for anyone but the DM.

It is both fun to play and run. There's always the great intense triumph and joy felt when you figure out one of the puzzles.

Sir_Elderberry
2010-09-20, 08:38 PM
The rod and the crown can't be removed from the room now, that was an obvious rule patch from when he first ran it before it was published.
The story I've always heard is that they were running it at a con, when a group came up with this solution, which so baffled the DM at the time that they went and found Gary Gygax to get him to arbitrate.

137ben
2010-09-20, 08:58 PM
But MM1 has a monster with a death on hit. The Oni soul eater is a heroic level monster with a death on hit, too. You just haven't playing enough.

Anyhoot, ToH4e is designed for 4e. It is not DM vs. PC, and the DM's goal is not to kill as many players as possible. That said, yeah the save or dies are gone. And so are the instadeath traps. But if the party does not cooperate they will deplete their resources very fast.

It has a lot of Fire and Necrotic Damage, for some odd raeson. So a tiefling and deva party will survive better than any other, but that's probably a fluke.

All of the instadeats in 4e core rules allow for a save. The new 4e ToH is longer that previous versions, but MUCH easier. The 3.5 version is also easy. I'm considering re-doing the 3.5 ToH to be more like the original, it that it actually kills PCs.

Esser-Z
2010-09-20, 09:00 PM
The thing is, a 3.5 caster with the Summon Elemental reserve feat neutralizes all traps with ease. ToH doesn't work so well in modern D&D. It's really an artifact of the old high lethality style.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-20, 09:02 PM
The story I've always heard is that they were running it at a con, when a group came up with this solution, which so baffled the DM at the time that they went and found Gary Gygax to get him to arbitrate.

This is called winning D&D.



Edit: I am very dissapointed by the sphere of annihilation allowing saves. I know, plenty of effects in 3.5 technically allow saves, but not that one...sure it's not the only insta-kill thing in the dungeon, but it's a classic. It DESERVES to be instakill, no matter what else is toned down.

And yes, the dungeon is doable by properly paranoid, cautious players. I've noticed that long time dungeon divers are much less prone to (generally lethal) mistakes. The key is to really, really check everything, and never assume that any obvious path or choice is the only option. And obviously, use a bloody 10 ft pole.

Katana_Geldar
2010-09-20, 09:32 PM
Or a longspear, the 4e equivalent.

sambo.
2010-09-21, 12:28 AM
You wouldn't like 3e tomb of horrors, and I'd guess you wouldn't like 4e tomb of horrors. Haven't looked at it, but instant death and save or die are foreign concepts to 4e.


Edit: The Sphere of anihilation is no longer an instant kill. Yep, they ****ed it up.
it;s been borked?

meh, any DM worth their salt can buff it back up again.


that statue packs quite a wallop

hehe, the sphere of annihilation in the statues mouth never get's old.

i went through the 1ed version fairly early in my DnD life. it taught me valuable lessons on the adviseability of carrying a 10' pole.

Katana_Geldar
2010-09-21, 01:15 AM
hehe, the sphere of annihilation in the statues mouth never gets old.


And the fact that the players have to get past the sphere of annihilation to get to the next room? Priceless!

ken-do-nim
2010-09-21, 05:17 AM
That's what I remember - the end boss was a shining example of how not to run D&D. It was strictly "Gary is thinking of a number between 1 and 100, guess the number or save vs death" (aka: "what do I have in my pocket" is a poor riddle). Getting to that point could be achived by sufficient paranoia and an unlimited supply of 10' poles (or kobold mine detectors), but I always assumed that distracting the DM long enough to peek at the end of the module was the expected solution to that final encounter - it might just have been the inspiration for the Kobayashi Maru.

Actually, the proper strategy to use with Tomb of Horrors is to cast plenty of divination spells before you enter so that you'll know how to win. I know of a nearby group that ran Tomb of Horrors using 1E about 5 years ago that didn't have a single death and completed it.

sambo.
2010-09-21, 08:22 AM
I know of a nearby group that ran Tomb of Horrors using 1E about 5 years ago that didn't have a single death and completed it.

not impossible if they had any idea what they were getting into.

when i first went into the ToH, the module had only been on sale in Oz for a week or two. none of us players had any damn idea what we were getting into.

my old DM was cackling like a maniac and coming up with little prisons throughout the Tomb where we could "rescue" new party members to replace the legions of the fallen.

i seriously think about 10 PCs died before we found the statue.

it accelerated from there.


Actually, the proper strategy to use with Tomb of Horrors is to cast plenty of divination spells before you enter....
i'd have thought that the proper strategy for the Tomb of Horrors is not to enter it in the first place.:smalleek:

Esser-Z
2010-09-21, 08:47 AM
Adamantine weapon. Burrow around the Tomb, bypassing everything.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-21, 09:07 AM
Actually, the proper strategy to use with Tomb of Horrors is to cast plenty of divination spells before you enter so that you'll know how to win. I know of a nearby group that ran Tomb of Horrors using 1E about 5 years ago that didn't have a single death and completed it.

I'm pretty sure it flat out states that divinations give little if any information at all.



Adamantine weapon. Burrow around the Tomb, bypassing everything.

Yes, you've burrowed around the tomb, but you haven't killed Acererak or beat the traps. I guess ignoring the tomb is a small victory in itself: Living.

Esser-Z
2010-09-21, 09:17 AM
Oh, I've killed Acerak. I dig a big huge pit, down to the mantle, under his chamber. Then I break the floor.

Not even he'll survive that heat.

Kurald Galain
2010-09-21, 09:21 AM
Oh, I've killed Acerak. I dig a big huge pit, down to the mantle, under his chamber. Then I break the floor.

Not even he'll survive that heat.

Then he'll cast Fly.

Esser-Z
2010-09-21, 09:22 AM
Then he'll cast Fly.

Not if I put up an AMF! :smalltongue:

Premier
2010-09-21, 09:33 AM
That's what I remember - the end boss was a shining example of how not to run D&D. It was strictly "Gary is thinking of a number between 1 and 100, guess the number or save vs death" (aka: "what do I have in my pocket" is a poor riddle). Getting to that point could be achived by sufficient paranoia and an unlimited supply of 10' poles (or kobold mine detectors), but I always assumed that distracting the DM long enough to peek at the end of the module was the expected solution to that final encounter - it might just have been the inspiration for the Kobayashi Maru.


Actually, it was much more likely the exact opposite of that. The seemingly random assortment of things that work suggests that Gary was, in fact, rather flexible when he playtested it - his players came up with off-the-wall ideas, and if he felt they made sense, he ruled that the attempt achieved something. Only once the module was published it fell under the sway of the "must be official rulings for tournament plays" mentality of the time.

Plus, as someone else has said already, clever players start by casting loads of divination spells.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-21, 09:51 AM
Actually, it was much more likely the exact opposite of that. The seemingly random assortment of things that work suggests that Gary was, in fact, rather flexible when he playtested it - his players came up with off-the-wall ideas, and if he felt they made sense, he ruled that the attempt achieved something. Only once the module was published it fell under the sway of the "must be official rulings for tournament plays" mentality of the time.

Plus, as someone else has said already, clever players start by casting loads of divination spells.

+1

I'mma firen mah lazor

Janus
2010-09-21, 10:21 AM
Isn't sending a flock of sheep into the tomb before you another tested and effective method of conquering the Tomb of Horrors?

Tyndmyr
2010-09-21, 10:30 AM
Isn't sending a flock of sheep into the tomb before you another tested and effective method of conquering the Tomb of Horrors?

I was a fan of donkeys, personally. I used them to good effect in many a dungeon.

You gotta use something at least as heavy as you, for those clever DMs who specify the weight necessary to set of a pressure plate.

Katana_Geldar
2010-09-21, 03:54 PM
I wouldn't allow that, it hardly seems fair.

BlckDv
2010-09-21, 04:01 PM
I'm confused... why is the word "fair" appearing in a discussion of the Tomb of Horrors without being preceded by "not". :smallwink:

Lhurgyof
2010-09-21, 08:27 PM
I really wanna play the AD&D Tomb of Horrors now. Too bad nobody around me has the AD&D or Hackmaster books.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-21, 08:42 PM
I'm confused... why is the word "fair" appearing in a discussion of the Tomb of Horrors without being preceded by "not". :smallwink:

It is....reasonably fair to the excessively paranoid. Donkeys are not a way to defeat everything in the tomb, obviously, but if you go through the tomb without pushing SOMETHING ahead of you, bad things are pretty much guaranteed to happen at some point. Sheep/Donkeys/Summons are just the best way to take care of the sheer bulk of traps so you don't die to something easily avoidable. There are still the more difficult things to discover.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-21, 08:43 PM
It is....reasonably fair to the excessively paranoid. Donkeys are not a way to defeat everything in the tomb, obviously, but if you go through the tomb without pushing SOMETHING ahead of you, bad things are pretty much guaranteed to happen at some point. Sheep/Donkeys/Summons are just the best way to take care of the sheer bulk of traps so you don't die to something easily avoidable. There are still the more difficult things to discover.

Best trap finder: Kill the rogue, tie his corpse to the 10 foot pole and use it to prod ahead of you. :smallwink:

Tyndmyr
2010-09-21, 08:44 PM
Best trap finder: Kill the rogue,

That seems like wasted effort. Just throw a gold piece to the end of the hallway, and call it a day.

137ben
2010-09-21, 08:49 PM
Not if I put up an AMF! :smalltongue:

Then how do you expect to get out alive?

Katana_Geldar
2010-09-21, 08:50 PM
I meant "fair" as in "you aren't supposed to do it like that", it's almost cheating.

Anyway, I'd just rule it that the sheep/donkey/herd of cattle etc refuse to enter the dungeon, and if that doesn't work there's always a stampede.

You knew I was running the Tomb of Horrors, you will do the Tomb of Horrors darn it and you will like it! :smallmad:

Lhurgyof
2010-09-21, 08:53 PM
That seems like wasted effort. Just throw a gold piece to the end of the hallway, and call it a day.

There are always those rogues with a wisdom higher than 12 that'll start to question the pit trap full of almost-identicle halfling bodies. :smalltongue:

Tyndmyr
2010-09-21, 08:58 PM
I meant "fair" as in "you aren't supposed to do it like that", it's almost cheating.

Anyway, I'd just rule it that the sheep/donkey/herd of cattle etc refuse to enter the dungeon, and if that doesn't work there's always a stampede.

You knew I was running the Tomb of Horrors, you will do the Tomb of Horrors darn it and you will like it! :smallmad:

In 3.5, behold the survival pouch, from which, six times per day, you can pull a donkey. They are ridiculously cheap, and no adventurer should be without one. Or seven. If he's already inside the tomb of horrors, he can run wherever he likes. It's not like he knows the way out. I don't care WHERE he finds the traps, only that he finds them.

As for rogues with wisdom...thankfully, I've been blessed with munchkin rogues, who are concerned almost wholly with how to pump dex and con to ridiculous levels, and steal everything not nailed down.

Esser-Z
2010-09-21, 09:03 PM
Then how do you expect to get out alive?

Because I'm the guy standing outside. That's my cohort.

Katana_Geldar
2010-09-21, 10:03 PM
In 3.5, behold the survival pouch, from which, six times per day, you can pull a donkey. They are ridiculously cheap, and no adventurer should be without one. Or seven. If he's already inside the tomb of horrors, he can run wherever he likes. It's not like he knows the way out. I don't care WHERE he finds the traps, only that he finds them.

As for rogues with wisdom...thankfully, I've been blessed with munchkin rogues, who are concerned almost wholly with how to pump dex and con to ridiculous levels, and steal everything not nailed down.

Thanks be I'm not playing 3.5 then. :smalltongue:

Mando Knight
2010-09-21, 10:06 PM
Not if I put up an AMF! :smalltongue:

AMF won't work. He'll fall past the AMF, then use a Teleportation spell.

And the foundation is probably enchanted adamantine anyway, so good luck digging through it.

DDRNick
2010-09-22, 12:41 AM
So for 4E ToH would it be worth it to have a tank to take all of the +'s to save ends (Human Perseverance, +2 when no action points available)? Or would you not bother?

Katana_Geldar
2010-09-22, 01:03 AM
Yes, yes, a hundred times yes!

Christopher K.
2010-09-22, 07:11 AM
From what I've heard about Tomb of Horrors, I'd rather take an actual tank in. :smalltongue: