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View Full Version : Optimizing the Justicar (3.5)



gallagher
2010-09-21, 12:28 AM
so i was curious, as a character i want to put in as a hindrance to the players in the game i am DMing, i would like to try putting in a Justicar. He is effectively Javert, hunting down the "criminals" that the party will inevitably be to the oppressive government.

there are a few questions/comments i would have.

1) grappling is one of the focuses, which means that size and BAB are important. this makes a cleric with Righteous Might and Divine Power would look good here, but not a cloistered cleric due to the BAB reasons.

2) survival for the capstone, where would i be able to get that as a class skill if i were to be looking at making this a cleric's build?

3) what are the best manacles money can buy? assuming at least 10th level (and will progress to higher levels as the show goes on)

4) how many domains can a guy with this build get? i guess i dont need the capstone, but i would like at least 5 levels in Justicar for the hogtie ability. i need at least 9 levels of divine casting to get righteous might

5) would a druid be fun in a justicar build instead of cleric? would that open any unusual doors?

6) what toys should i get with this guy? it seems that as the levels go up, the more fun things i should bring in. i already have a few items with misers greed placed on them (or whatever that spell in SC is that makes things "precious")

so i guess any other help in here would be very useful. this guy wont come in until next week tuesday, but i am excited by what strangeness can come out of this one

gallagher
2010-09-21, 12:37 AM
just saw that travel domain would give me survival. so i would like inquisition, travel, and knowledge domains at least, with war and strength in there too if i can.

i dont care about how many dips i take as long as i can get righteous might and at least 5 levels of justicar

herrhauptmann
2010-09-21, 01:16 AM
Adamant manacles with the best lock available (DC 35 pick, DC 30 break I think).
THey also have to have some way to stop teleports and whatnot. I think there's dimensional anchor shackles somewhere. But one that activates a dispel magic on the wearer when locked onto a person would be useful too. Wouldn't have to be a continuous dispel (that's like trying to get AMF on a person for free), just have to activate when placed on a person. Perhaps slashing dispel for some damage too.
Or the manacles are created to activate a regular dispel when first locked on a person, and also a slashing dispel magic if hte wearer casts a spell.
Bonus points, make the manacles act as a loadstone when locked. Remove curse or command word to unlock.

gallagher
2010-09-21, 09:45 AM
Adamant manacles with the best lock available (DC 35 pick, DC 30 break I think).
THey also have to have some way to stop teleports and whatnot. I think there's dimensional anchor shackles somewhere. But one that activates a dispel magic on the wearer when locked onto a person would be useful too. Wouldn't have to be a continuous dispel (that's like trying to get AMF on a person for free), just have to activate when placed on a person. Perhaps slashing dispel for some damage too.
Or the manacles are created to activate a regular dispel when first locked on a person, and also a slashing dispel magic if hte wearer casts a spell.
Bonus points, make the manacles act as a loadstone when locked. Remove curse or command word to unlock.
also what might be interesting is have a mark of justice placed on the wearer with the condition being that the manacles are removed by anyone but the justicar

Person_Man
2010-09-21, 10:11 AM
Justcar builds need three things:

1) Ridiculously high Grapple and Use Rope checks. I suggest a mix of custom magic items, Incarnate (Sailer's Bracer's Soulmeld) and/or Totemist (Girillion Arms Soulmeld), and your choice of classes from the X to Y (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) thread (with Marshal or Factotum being the obvious choices).

2) Good mobility (Tumble, free movement, pounce, etc) so that they can easily get to their enemy and make a full attack. Check out the Pounce and Free Movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) thread. Plenty of options there.

3) Something else. Justicar builds are horrendously repetitive, and not all enemies can be Hogtied. Go find another melee combo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026)you like that works well against hard to Grapple enemies.

Greenish
2010-09-21, 10:17 AM
3) Something else. Justicar builds are horrendously repetitive, and not all enemies can be Hogtied.Well, it's an NPC, it can afford to be repetitive, especially if it's a one-show wonder.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-21, 11:20 AM
1) grappling is one of the focuses, which means that size and BAB are important. this makes a cleric with Righteous Might and Divine Power would look good here, but not a cloistered cleric due to the BAB reasons.

A Cloistered Cleric with Divine power and Righteous might is just as good at grappling as a normal Cleric.
Remember DP replaces bab for full.

You'd be weaker without DP though, but with it same. And you'd have more domains. Exchange knowledge domain for Knowledge devotion?

gallagher
2010-09-21, 11:26 AM
A Cloistered Cleric with Divine power and Righteous might is just as good at grappling as a normal Cleric.
Remember DP replaces bab for full.

You'd be weaker without DP though, but with it same. And you'd have more domains. Exchange knowledge domain for Knowledge devotion?
while DP replaces my BAB for full, i still need BAB+6 to get into justicar.

in 15 levels of divine casting (with 5 going to justicar), where i need to get at least one 5th level spell, how would i get the most domains possible?

Greenish
2010-09-21, 11:35 AM
while DP replaces my BAB for full, i still need BAB+6 to get into justicar.

in 15 levels of divine casting (with 5 going to justicar), where i need to get at least one 5th level spell, how would i get the most domains possible?Church Inquisitor, Divine Oracle and Contemplative dips once you can.

Barlen
2010-09-21, 11:46 AM
Cloistered Cleric also has d6 hd so your dropping 1hp/level over cleric (and 2hp/level over fighter) on average. Divine power adds 1hp/level to bring the cleric up to the fighter d10 level (like it does with bab) but a cloistered cleric would still be down some hp.

Sounds like a dip into Church Inquisitor around ecl 4 would work if you can meet the skill requirements. Thematically appropriate and Inquisition as a bonus domain.

Manacles with a custom silence effect on the wearer perhaps? ("You have the right to remain silent, In fact I insist!").

Edit: NM, just saw you were going for ecl 15.

gallagher
2010-09-21, 11:50 AM
Cloistered Cleric also has d6 hd so your dropping 1hp/level over cleric (and 2hp/level over fighter) on average. Divine power adds 1hp/level to bring the cleric up to the fighter d10 level (like it does with bab) but a cloistered cleric would still be down some hp.

Sounds like a dip into Church Inquisitor around ecl 4 would work if you can meet the skill requirements. Thematically appropriate and Inquisition as a bonus domain.

Manacles with a custom silence effect on the wearer perhaps? ("You have the right to remain silent, In fact I insist!").

Edit: NM, just saw you were going for ecl 15.i have a tendency that the really cool villains come back in a bit of a recurring role. i am saying that if i have this guy up to level 20 he will be having 15 levels that arent justicar

Barlen
2010-09-21, 11:51 AM
oh, and since Intelligence is likely to be a dump stat, and you only have 2+int for skills try law devotion instead of Knowledge (just pick it up as a feat if you have to). At ecl 15 it gives a +7 bonus to hit for 10 rounds 1/day (or burn 3 TU attempts for another). Also thematically appropriate ("I bring the LAW!")

gallagher
2010-09-21, 02:44 PM
oh, and since Intelligence is likely to be a dump stat, and you only have 2+int for skills try law devotion instead of Knowledge (just pick it up as a feat if you have to). At ecl 15 it gives a +7 bonus to hit for 10 rounds 1/day (or burn 3 TU attempts for another). Also thematically appropriate ("I bring the LAW!")

that will be exceptionally useful, especially for a grappling hunter guy.

so church inquisitor gives me the inquisition domain, divine oracle will give me the oracle domain, what does contemplative give me (AFB)?

and with that in mind, i then need law and travel as my domains. and then i can get law devotion, and if i take travel devotion do i lose survival from my skill list?

and are there any other dips out there to get me more domains?

Quirp
2010-09-21, 02:49 PM
contemplative gives you one bonus domain from your deity´s list of available domains

when you take the devotion feat for a domain you loose all domain granted abilities, including bonus class skills

Greenish
2010-09-21, 02:49 PM
that will be exceptionally useful, especially for a grappling hunter guy.

so church inquisitor gives me the inquisition domain, divine oracle will give me the oracle domain, what does contemplative give me (AFB)?Your choice.

if i take travel devotion do i lose survival from my skill list?Unfortunately, yes.


and are there any other dips out there to get me more domains?Sovereign Speaker, which gives several, though there are some limitations on which you can pick, and it's setting specific.

Barlen
2010-09-21, 05:33 PM
You don't need to actually take law domain to get the feat law devotion. You can take the feat normally. But if you have law domain you can trade the granted power and the spells from that domain for the feat. Basically trading the domain for the feat.

WinWin
2010-09-21, 07:52 PM
Dimensional Shackles could be useful to prevent teleportation.

A Dispelling Mancatcher might be a method of disabling opponents with a Freedom of Movement in effect. It would also allow grappling at reach. The Ghost Touch enhancement could also allow for some transdimensional shenannigans.

Cursed items could be a useful investment for this character, either deliverable via sleight of hand, or on an incapacitated foe.

The Bloodhound PrC could be a good lead in to Justicar.

hope this helps.