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Ziegander
2010-09-24, 05:10 AM
The Esper Knight
**(I know this is more powerful than the Fighter, and the Soulborn presented in MoI. I'm aiming for a point of balance closer to a Warblade or Crusader.)**


http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa83/noob37/Jedi_knight_01.jpg
"Within my blades and my heart are the souls of a thousand worlds. I'll give you a moment to reconsider your position," - Leon Mistrunner, Esper Knight.

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d10



Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special

AC Bonus

Essentia


1st
+1
+0
+0
+2
Spirit Blade, Soul Conduit

+0

1


2nd
+2
+0
+0
+3
AC Bonus, Bonus Feat

+0

1


3rd
+3
+1
+1
+3
Esper Power

+1

2


4th
+4
+1
+1
+4
Bonus Feat

+1

3


5th
+5
+1
+1
+4
Esper Power

+1

4


6th
+6/+1
+2
+2
+5
Bonus Feat

+2

4


7th
+7/+2
+2
+2
+5
Increased Capacity +1

+2

5


8th
+8/+3
+2
+2
+6
Bonus Feat

+2

6


9th
+9/+4
+3
+3
+6
Esper Power

+3

7


10th
+10/+5
+3
+3
+7
Bonus Feat

+3

7


11th
+11/+6/+1
+3
+3
+7
Oversoul 2/day

+3

8


12th
+12/+7/+2
+4
+4
+8
Bonus Feat

+4

9


13th
+13/+8/+3
+4
+4
+8
Esper Power

+4

10


14th
+14/+9/+4
+4
+4
+9
Bonus Feat

+4

10


15th
+15/+10/+5
+5
+5
+9
Increased Capacity +2

+5

11


16th
+16/+11/+6/+1
+5
+5
+10
Bonus Feat

+5

12


17th
+17/+12/+7/+2
+5
+5
+10
Esper Power

+5

13


18th
+18/+13/+8/+3
+6
+6
+11
Bonus Feat

+6

13


19th
+19/+14/+9/+4
+6
+6
+11
Oversoul 4/day

+6

14


20th
+20/+15/+10/+5
+6
+6
+12
Perfect Soul, Bonus Feat

+6

15



Class Skills: Autohypnosis, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Heal, Jump, Knowledge (History, Planes, Nobility), Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, and Tumble.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Proficiencies: All simple weapons, one martial weapon of your choice, light armor and medium armor, no shields.

Essentia: Though Esper Knights do not shape soulmelds they gain a sizeable pool of essentia to allocate between their class features, Esper Powers, and Incarnum Feats.

Soul Conduit (Su): Esper Knights are able to reallocate their essentia into Incarnum Feats more than once each day. However, they do not have the amount of fluidity with their essentia as meldshapers. After reallocating essentia, Esper Knights must wait at least one round before they may reallocate it again. Further, by exploiting their connection with soul energy, Esper Knights are able to sense living creatures within 60ft as the Sense Life spell at will as a full-round action.

Spirit Blade (Su): Esper Knights are able to channel the spiritual energies at their disposal into their weapons to produce dangerous, but powerful instruments. With their special training they are able to control and wield these weapons without endangering themselves. As long as 1 point of essentia is invested into this ability any weapon wielded by the Esper Knight deals 1d6 extra positive energy damage (full damage to objects, double damage to undead, does not heal living creatures), and ignores 1pt of shield bonus and 1pt of armor bonus per pt of invested essentia, as well as DR and Hardness up to a value equal to twice the invested essentia. However, the Esper Knight takes a -1 penalty to attack rolls with the weapon per pt of invested essentia. If 3 or more pts of essentia are invested the weapons gain the Ghost Touch property. If 5 or more pts of essentia are invested the weapons gain the Vorpal property (even if the weapons aren't slashing).

AC Bonus: Esper Knights of 2nd level and higher add their Wisdom bonus as an insight bonus to their AC as long as they wear light, medium or no armor, and gain an additional Dodge bonus to AC as given in the table above. While flat-footed an Esper Knight retains their Wisdom bonus to AC gained in this way, but loses the Dodge bonus to AC gained this way.

Bonus Feat: Esper Knights are highly trained warriors, and at every even class level gain a bonus feat drawn from the Fighter's list of bonus feats. Alternatively, he may choose any Incarnum feat he qualifies for.

Esper Power (Su): At 3rd, 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th level Esper Knights master supernatural powers that utilize his essentia to gain strength. He might bolster his defenses, fool with his foes' minds, push enemies away with spiritual force, or strike at them with spiritual lightning. He may use his Esper Powers at will. The save DC against any Esper Power is as normal for (Su) abilities +your Wisdom modifier +1/2 invested Essentia. Any time he allocates or reallocates his Essentia he can move points into or out of his Esper Powers. Spell Resistance applies against all Esper Powers even though they are supernatural in nature.

Esper Powers
(13 out of 16 of these are done, let me know what you think of the ones I have done, and if you have any suggestions for the remaining 3!)
Esper Grip - As a standard action, make a ranged touch attack against target creature within a 15ft/pt of invested Essentia to deal 1d6 force damage/pt of invested Essentia and must make a Fortitude save to avoid additional effects. On a failed save, if 1 or more pts of Essentia are invested into this power the target is Sickened for 1 round. If 3 or more pts of Essentia are invested the target is Sickened and Immobilized for 1 round. If 5 or more pts of Essentia are invested the target is Sickened, Paralyzed, and must hold its breath as if Drowning for 1 round, and as long as you maintain this effect (standard action to target the same creature each round).

Esper Lightning - As a standard action, target creature within 30ft/pt of invested Essentia takes 2d6 electricity damage/pt of invested Essentia (Reflex half). If 3 or more pts pts of Essentia are invested you may instead target any creatures you wish within a 30ft/pt of invested Essentia cone-effect area. If 5 or more pts of Essentia are invested, targets that fail their Reflex saves are Stunned for 1 round.

Esper Flames - As a standard action, target creature within 30ft/pt of invested Essentia takes 2d6 fire damage/pt of invested Essentia (Reflex half). If 3 or more pts of Essentia are invested you may also target any creatures you wish within 5ft/pt of invested Essentia of you and the target at the time. If 5 or more pts of Essentia are invested, Esper Flames ignores Fire Resistance and deals half damage to creatures with Fire Immunity.

Esper Frost - As a standard action, target creature within 30ft/pt of invested Essentia takes 2d6 cold damage/pt of invested Essentia (Reflex half). If 3 or more pts of Essentia are invested you may target all creatures in a 30ft x 5ft/pt of invested Essentia line-effect area, and if you do the area is treated as difficult terrain for 1 round. If 5 or more pts of Essentia are invested, targets that fail their Reflex saves are frozen solid, either covered in 1 inch of ice/pt of invested Essentia, or, if you use the line-effect area option, captured within a Wall of Ice enclosing that area, as the spell.

Esper Push - As a swift action, all creatures within 5ft/pt of invested Essentia are pushed away from you in any direction up to 5ft/pt of invested Essentia (Fortitude negates). If 3 or more pts of Essentia are invested, creatures who failed their saves are knocked prone. If 5 or more pts of Essentia are invested, creatures who succeeded on their saves are still pushed half the distance (rounded down to the nearest 5ft).

Esper Slam - As a standard action, make a ranged touch attack against target creature within 15ft/pt of invested Essentia to deal 1d6 force damage/pt of invested Essentia +1.5 times your Strength modifier and is pushed away from you in any direction up to 10ft/pt of invested Essentia (Fortitude negates). If 3 or more pts of Essentia are invested, creatures you failed their saves are knocked prone and are Staggered for 1 round. If 5 or more pts of Essentia are invested, you add 2x your Strength modifier to the damage and creatures who succeeded on their saves are still pushed up to half the distance (rounded down to the nearest 5ft).

Esper Surge - As a swift action, you gain a +20ft/pt of Essentia invested bonus to your land speed for 1 round. If 3 or more pts of Essentia are invested you add this bonus to all of your speeds and may make an extra attack when making a full attack at your highest attack bonus. If 5 or more pts of Essentia are invested, you may make a full attack as a standard action rather than a full-round action.

Esper Sacrifice - As a swift action, you lose 1d6hp/pt of invested Essentia but any ally within 15ft/pt of invested Essentia regains 6hp/pt of invested Essentia. If 3 or more pts of Essentia is invested you may remove any of the following conditions from the healed ally: Dazzled, Fatigued, Blinded, Deafened, Shaken, Dazed, Frightened, or Sickened. If 5 or more pts of Essentia is invested you may remove 1 ability damage/pt of invested Essentia and remove any of the following conditions: Dazzled, Fatigued, Blinded, Deafened, Shaken, Dazed, Frightened, Sickened, Poisoned, Confused, Exhausted, Stunned, Nauseated, Panicked, or Paralyzed.

Mind Trick - As a standard action, as long as 1 or more pts of Essentia are invested in this power you may use Command and Detect Thoughts at will, as the spells. If 3 or more pts of Essentia are invested you may use Command, Detect Thoughts, Suggestion, or Modify Memory at will, as the spells. If 5 or more pts of Essentia are invested you use Command, Detect Thoughts, Suggestion, Modify Memory, Feeblemind, or Greater Command at will, as the spells. A creature who successfully saves against your Mind Trick cannot be effected by any of the spell effects for 24 hours. Your caster level for this power is equal to your Esper Knight level.

Negate Energy - As an immediate action, as long as 1 or more pts of Essentia are invested in this power when you are included as a target of a spell or ability that deals energy damage and does not include an attack roll (Fireball, Dragon's Breath, etc) you may make an opposed level check with the source of that spell or ability if the damage is Cold, Electricity, or Fire. If your check succeeds you are no longer considered a target of that spell or ability and your space is omitted from its effects. If 3 or more pts of Essentia are invested you get a +5 bonus to the opposed level check and may negate Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire and Sonic damage. If 5 or more pts of Essentia are invested you get a +10 bonus to the opposed level check and may negate any type of energy damage (including Positive, Negative, Force, etc). Further, you may exclude an additional number of 5ft spaces equal to the invested pts of Essentia.

Warp Space - Once per round/pt of invested Essentia, as an attack action, as long as 1 or more pts of Essentia are invested in this power you may make a melee attack against any creature within line of sight and within 15ft/pt of invested Essentia. If an ally threatens the creature you are considered to be flanking. If 3 or more pts of Essentia are invested, as a swift action, you may teleport up to 5ft/pt of invested Essentia to any unoccupied square within line of sight. If 5 or more pts of Essentia are invested, you may use Swift Etherealness at will, as the spell.

Move Object - As a standard action, choose a creature or object within 30ft/pf of invested Essentia that weighs no more than 30lbs/pt of invested Essentia. A creature can negate this power's effect against itself or an object it possesses with a successful Will save. If the save fails, as long as you maintain this effect (a move action each round), you may move the chosen creature or object 10ft/pt of invested Essentia in any direction per round, though the effect is immediately ended if distance between the creature or object ever exceeds this power's maximum range. You may telekinetically manipulate the creature or object as if by one hand requiring any actions necessary to complete the desired effect (turn a key as a free action, initiate a grapple as a standard action, etc). The power's Strength score for these purposes is 10+2/pt of invested Essentia.

If 3 or more pts of Essentia are invested double the maximum weight you may effect with this power. Further your telekinetic force is honed to a precision instrument gaining a +3 bonus to dexterity skill checks, and a +4 bonus to Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, and Trip attempts.

If 5 or more pts of Essentia are invested you are able to violently hurl creatures or objects. As a standard action, choose a creature or object within range. You may hurl the creature or object 15ft/pt of invested Essentia. If a creature is hurled into a solid surface it is dealt 1d6 damage/10ft hurled in this way. Weapons deal damage as normal (no Strength bonus, add 2x your Wisdom modifier). Objects deal either 1pt/25lbs if they are less dangerous, or 1d6/25lbs for more dangerous objects (as determined by the DM).

Shatter Objects - As a standard action, as long as 1 or more pts of Essentia are invested into this power, you may use the Shatter spell at will. Your caster level equals your Esper Knight level. If 3 or more pts of Essentia are invested the area of the Shatter spell effect is increased to 5ft/pt of invested Essentia. Further, double the maximum weight you are able to effect with the spell effect. If 5 or more pts of Essentia are invested the area Shatter effect is able to destroy magical items, and deals creatures, objects, and structures within the area 1d6 sonic damage/pt of invested Essentia, ignoring hardness.

More to come...
Domination - charms or even dominates creatures
Ensouled Object - animates objects
Bolster - increases your physical resilience

Increased Capacity (Ex): At 7th level and again at 15th level, the essentia capacity of your Incarnum feats, Spirit Blade class feature, and Esper Powers increases by 1.

Oversoul (Su): Starting at 11th level, twice each day as a swift action, you can temporarily maximize the invested essentia of all of your Incarnum feats, Esper Powers, or Esper Knight class features that allow essentia investment for 1 round. At 19th level you may use this ability four times each day. After using this ability you are fatigued for 1 minute, during which time you cannot reallocate your essentia.

Perfect Soul (Su): At 20th level, you may still walk the mortal world in a mortal body, but you are immune to death by aging, and age only when you want to. Your type changes to Outsider, and you gain the native subtype. You are also immune to Death effects as well as any effects that would destroy, trap, or otherwise tamper with your soul, and gain Damage Reduction 15/good or evil or law or chaos. After death, your spirit remains intact and may drift here and there as if by using Plane Shift at will, though your spirit is incapable of interacting with the living world, except 1/day for one hour. Enjoying the strength and power of your soul, you ignore any penalties from being resurrected.

hamishspence
2010-09-24, 05:27 AM
Nice. Given that the soulborn in MoI is horribly underpowered, it does make sense to power it up a bit.

Essentia without soulmelds- sounds a bit like Psionics without powers (the soulknife exemplifies this, but is again horribly underpowered).

This method seems like an interesting way of handling it.

Fizban
2010-09-24, 07:26 AM
This is awesome. I love the essentia mechanic, but never liked soulmelding very much and the incarnum feats generally suck: having a class that uses essentia in a straightforward way is great. I would recommend rephrasing the AC bonus to "any armor lighter than heavy" or "when unarmored or wearing light or medium armor," unless you actually meant for them to not get the bonus when unarmored. I would also reduce the bonus feats some. I know it's supposed to be better than the fighter, but it's just rude to just make Fighter++ :smalltongue. A bonus feat every 4 levels instead of every 2 is probably enough, since it looks like your powers are good enough to be used alongside maneuvers, at least to me.

Out of curiosity, where did you get the term "esper" from? I've heard it in Final Fantasy games and it's the name of a partial plane in Magic The Gathering, and it sounds likely that it's a re-purposed word from real life.

Kobold-Bard
2010-09-24, 08:33 AM
I've been working on a class very similar to this and you have just gone ahead and blown it out of the water. An I love you for it :smallbiggrin:

Definitely reduce the bonus Feats, millions of Feats is the Fighter's only schick.

At level 20 are you able to bring yourself back to life at-will without penaty. Sounds a bit much (it seems very Wizard abusing Genesis+Similacrum+Astral Projection)

What happens with Oversoul if you're Undead/Construct/immune to fatigue se other way?

Edit: Esper ability ideas (feel free to ignore I they're rubbish):

Esper Infusion: Animate small objects for a time.
Soul to Soul: Mind Link style Telepathy, 1 person/essentia
One with Nature: Speak with Animals & gain full ranks in Handle Animal fo te duration. (Forget that, it's terribad)
Farsight: Some sort of Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, upping to scrying and Greater Scrying with mre essentia.

Kaje
2010-09-24, 09:18 AM
An Incarnum Jedi. That is awesome.

hamishspence
2010-09-24, 09:27 AM
Out of curiosity, where did you get the term "esper" from? I've heard it in Final Fantasy games and it's the name of a partial plane in Magic The Gathering, and it sounds likely that it's a re-purposed word from real life.

Maybe from "ESP-er" where ESP is Extra-Sensory Perception?

It's the name for users of psionic power in some Sci-fi. In the Deathstalker books by Simon R. Green for example.

Ziegander
2010-09-24, 11:34 AM
@Fizban: Good point on the AC Bonus, I'll fix that right up. The word Esper does indeed come primarily from the Final Fantasy game, but it is also a rough translation of Esprit, the french word for Spirit.

@Kobold-Bard: Actually, I don't mean for the capstone ability to give you free personal rezzing ability, I just worded it very poorly. And about Oversoul, the same thing happens as if you're an Undead Barbarian - you ignore being fatigued.

About the Bonus Feats, and I hope this doesn't rub people the wrong way, but they don't make a class, in my opinion. When someone wants to play a Fighter in my campaigns I tell them to use the Fighter Reborn in my sig, or to play a Warblade and replace its class features with the standard progression of Fighter bonus feats. So, what I'm saying is the bonus feats on this guy are staying as they are.

I'm glad people seem to like the class though! I'll be working up fluff as soon as I have the chance.

Kobold-Bard
2010-09-24, 12:02 PM
...

@Kobold-Bard: Actually, I don't mean for the capstone ability to give you free personal rezzing ability, I just worded it very poorly. And about Oversoul, the same thing happens as if you're an Undead Barbarian - you ignore being fatigued.

About the Bonus Feats, and I hope this doesn't rub people the wrong way, but they don't make a class, in my opinion. When someone wants to play a Fighter in my campaigns I tell them to use the Fighter Reborn in my sig, or to play a Warblade and replace its class features with the standard progression of Fighter bonus feats. So, what I'm saying is the bonus feats on this guy are staying as they are.

I'm glad people seem to like the class though! I'll be working up fluff as soon as I have the chance.

Alrighty on both fronts.

Maybe offer a variant for people who still acknowledge the Fighter class's existance (few and far between as they may be) that reduces the bonus feats to 1/5 levels say, and grants an extra Esper ability or two instead.

Looking forward to those other Esper Abilities being done (especially telekinesis) :smallsmile:
Though saying that, as I read it Esper Slam does everything Esper push does, and then more on top. Is that right, and if so why would you ever pick Esper Push?

Kaje
2010-09-24, 12:05 PM
It seems odd to me that they don't get a power at lvl 20. Could one perhaps replace their last bonus feat?


The word Esper does indeed come primarily from the Final Fantasy game, but it is also a rough translation of Esprit, the french word for Spirit.It's also used to describe those with ESP-related abilities, and perfect for this class. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esper


@Kobold-Bard: Actually, I don't mean for the capstone ability to give you free personal rezzing ability, I just worded it very poorly.It was oddly worded, but it seemed clear to me it was basically a Jedi Force Ghost.


Though saying that, as I read it Esper Slam does everything Esper push does, and then more on top. Is that right, and if so why would you ever pick Esper Push?Swift action versus standard.

Pechvarry
2010-09-24, 12:34 PM
Interesting class. However, I strongly disagree with +stat to AC while wearing medium armor. I guess I really don't have grounds to, as it's likely not overpowered. But it definitely breaks a precedent: all classes who get to add a stat to AC do so only while wearing light or no armor.

As for feats: they have one less feat than Fighters so it's ok!

Zaydos
2010-09-24, 01:06 PM
+stat to AC and medium armor means +stat to AC and mithril full-plate; it leaves you with much less MAD than other +stat to AC classes which tend to need Str, Dex, Con, and Stat; they can get by at a noticeable penalty without Str (thanks to Shadow Blade) where as this can get by more easily without Dex (10 + Gloves +6 = max Dex in mithril full-plate).

As for the feats I'll really have to see the rest of the Esper power to tell, the last 4 could be quite powerful. That said the problem with fighter is that it only gets feats; that many feats in the hands of someone with actual class abilities gets much more dangerous. Right now most of their abilities don't seem that awesome although 3 stand out. Least is an infinite healing loop you can get with Esper Sacrifice and an Incarnate (although that requires the incarnate to use their heart chakra bind; or you can just stay at 50% health with the draconic aura feat and keep everyone else in the party at full) which also eventually acts as a weaker version restoration. Modify Memory is also possibly powerful. The biggest is Esper Surge allows 6 attacks per round as a standard action (also requires a swift and a move) starting at 15th level, all at your highest attack bonus (either make sure it's clear you can't use the swift action speed boost and the standard action super attack or simply make it allow them to make a full-attack as a standard action).

Really it doesn't need a feat every other level and you've said it yourself feats aren't a substitute for class features so don't use them as one. A feat every 4 or 5 levels is better design in that it actually gives them unique and interesting class features. Also a fighter runs out of good feats ~6th level; these guys get some high returns for their Incarnum feats and can just start plugging them when they run out of needed normal ones.

Perfect Soul: People should still be able to trap their soul, it happens to the Sith all the time. DR should probably be lowered to 10 which is still a fair amount when you make it Law or Chaos (since people generally don't deal damage of those alignments).

And being better than fighter is a good idea, but still need to compare it to tier 3s.

Kobold-Bard
2010-09-24, 02:22 PM
OOH OOH OOH!!! New Esper Ability idea:

Knowledge of the Ancients: You are counted as having full ranks in one Knowledge skill/point of Essentia invested, changable whenever you rearrange your Essentia.

Again feel free to ignore it if you think it's rubbish.

Pechvarry
2010-09-24, 06:54 PM
Just to clarify: I wasn't being snarky about it having one less feat than the fighter as a passive-aggressive attack on the OP. Obviously, Fighters are lackluster (or else we wouldn't see so many homebrew fixes for them) so it's a ridiculous measuring stick to say any class does anything better than the Fighter. I just thought it funny that I could say "it's not better than the fighter at feats -- it only gets 10!"

Ziegander
2010-09-25, 12:03 AM
Though saying that, as I read it Esper Slam does everything Esper push does, and then more on top. Is that right, and if so why would you ever pick Esper Push?

Esper Push hits ALL creatures within the area, Esper Slam hits only one. That and Push is a swift action and Slam is a standard action. That being said, Slam is still overpowered (by 7th level you can have an at will standard action that deals 3d6+1.5Str modifier damage, without any attack roll, that can push the target away, knock them prone, AND stagger them for 1 round). Like way overpowered. That and Force Grip need toned down big time.

In fact, they probably all need toned down quite a bit.

Kobold-Bard
2010-09-25, 02:06 AM
Esper Push hits ALL creatures within the area, Esper Slam hits only one. That and Push is a swift action and Slam is a standard action. That being said, Slam is still overpowered (by 7th level you can have an at will standard action that deals 3d6+1.5Str modifier damage, without any attack roll, that can push the target away, knock them prone, AND stagger them for 1 round). Like way overpowered. That and Force Grip need toned down big time.

In fact, they probably all need toned down quite a bit.

Ah right, missed that part :smallredface:

Ziegander
2010-09-25, 01:20 PM
Okay so now, even though they're (Su) abilities, Spell Resistance applies to all Esper Powers. Further, I required a ranged touch attack for Esper Grip and Esper Slam. I think that should keep the abilities in line.

Zaydos
2010-09-25, 01:23 PM
My comment on Esper Surge still stands.

Ziegander
2010-09-25, 01:37 PM
+stat to AC and medium armor means +stat to AC and mithril full-plate; it leaves you with much less MAD than other +stat to AC classes which tend to need Str, Dex, Con, and Stat; they can get by at a noticeable penalty without Str (thanks to Shadow Blade) where as this can get by more easily without Dex (10 + Gloves +6 = max Dex in mithril full-plate).

Exactly. It was done to alleviate the MAD some. This is a melee class, which by the nature of the rules means it's nice to have high Strength, Dex, and Con, however, its Esper Powers' save DCs are modified by Wisdom. In order to help out with that, Medium Armor + Wisdom bonus will make it so they can dump Dex if they need to.


As for the feats I'll really have to see the rest of the Esper power to tell, the last 4 could be quite powerful. That said the problem with fighter is that it only gets feats; that many feats in the hands of someone with actual class abilities gets much more dangerous. Right now most of their abilities don't seem that awesome although 3 stand out. Least is an infinite healing loop you can get with Esper Sacrifice and an Incarnate (although that requires the incarnate to use their heart chakra bind; or you can just stay at 50% health with the draconic aura feat and keep everyone else in the party at full) which also eventually acts as a weaker version restoration.

Infinite healing has been a part of the game for a while now. The easiest way I can think of is Necropolitan parties, but there are many other ways.


The biggest is Esper Surge allows 6 attacks per round as a standard action (also requires a swift and a move) starting at 15th level, all at your highest attack bonus (either make sure it's clear you can't use the swift action speed boost and the standard action super attack or simply make it allow them to make a full-attack as a standard action).

Full-attack as a standard action is probably more reasonable, especially considering it also grants an extra attack.


Really it doesn't need a feat every other level and you've said it yourself feats aren't a substitute for class features so don't use them as one. A feat every 4 or 5 levels is better design in that it actually gives them unique and interesting class features. Also a fighter runs out of good feats ~6th level; these guys get some high returns for their Incarnum feats and can just start plugging them when they run out of needed normal ones.

That's exactly what I want to make possible with the bonus feats. It started out getting 20 essentia, 1 per level, but with the bonus feats it can potentially get many more. I feel like 20+ is the appropriate essentia level for this class so 15 + incarnum feat bonus essentia feels right to me, all while allowing the player to tweak his Esper Knight's martial prowess as he sees fit as well.


Perfect Soul: People should still be able to trap their soul, it happens to the Sith all the time. DR should probably be lowered to 10 which is still a fair amount when you make it Law or Chaos (since people generally don't deal damage of those alignments).

Does it happen to 20th level Sith Masters all the time? People don't deal those damages, but lots of Outsiders do, which at 20th level, you're going to run into as often as humanoids.


And being better than fighter is a good idea, but still need to compare it to tier 3s.

I am comparing it to other Tier 3s. Is this more powerful than a Warblade or Crusader? It's possible, but so far I doubt it.

Soulblazer87
2010-09-25, 01:43 PM
Great idea, makes Incarnum not an actual headache to manage.

Though, I'd rather not see the penalty of the Spirit Blade, but I guess some penalties must be applied once in a while.

On that matter, why not an Esper Speed? Giving speed then haste and maybe even second turns once in a while? Nothing like time stop, but you get what I mean hopefully. You could give a combat focus esper power, granting increased attack and damage at the cost of other things, such as focus or the weakness of not doing anything that isn't directly combat related. An Esper Armor could help as well, creating a force-field around you for protection.

By the way, warp space could allow for long range attack or violently tossing your enemy through dimensions, dealing damage.

Ziegander
2010-09-25, 01:51 PM
On that matter, why not an Esper Speed? Giving speed then haste and maybe even second turns once in a while? Nothing like time stop, but you get what I mean hopefully.

Check out Esper Surge. :)


You could give a combat focus esper power, granting increased attack and damage at the cost of other things, such as focus or the weakness of not doing anything that isn't directly combat related.

Ooo, like Mace Windu's "shatterpoints" thing. I like this, yes.


An Esper Armor could help as well, creating a force-field around you for protection.

I'm planning to do something like this for Bolster. Esper Armor might be a better name for it, depending on what mechanics I choose to use.


By the way, warp space could allow for long range attack or violently tossing your enemy through dimensions, dealing damage.

Melee attack at range is a fair idea. I think that's good for the 1st essentia pt. Maybe a Dimension Hop effect at 3 pts, and maybe Swift Etherealness at 5 pts?

Zaydos
2010-09-25, 02:06 PM
Exactly. It was done to alleviate the MAD some. This is a melee class, which by the nature of the rules means it's nice to have high Strength, Dex, and Con, however, its Esper Powers' save DCs are modified by Wisdom. In order to help out with that, Medium Armor + Wisdom bonus will make it so they can dump Dex if they need to.

That's what I thought and mostly I was just commenting its exact effects because people were saying it was a bad thing and really I didn't think it was.


Infinite healing has been a part of the game for a while now. The easiest way I can think of is Necropolitan parties, but there are many other ways.

Again not anything severe with Tier 3s and splatbook, although the restoration qualities makes this actually the best infinite healing trick yet.


Full-attack as a standard action is probably more reasonable, especially considering it also grants an extra attack.

This was actually my only big complaint, because it was effectively Diamond Mind's Lv 9 but better every round.


That's exactly what I want to make possible with the bonus feats. It started out getting 20 essentia, 1 per level, but with the bonus feats it can potentially get many more. I feel like 20+ is the appropriate essentia level for this class so 15 + incarnum feat bonus essentia feels right to me, all while allowing the player to tweak his Esper Knight's martial prowess as he sees fit as well.

With the old Esper Powers, though, they didn't need bonus feats, and I'd still rather see less bonus feats and more class abilities.


Does it happen to 20th level Sith Masters all the time? People don't deal those damages, but lots of Outsiders do, which at 20th level, you're going to run into as often as humanoids.

I still say 15 is too high, and pretty much whenever a Sith ghost shows up something happens to destroy its spirit in quick order. The Jedi Force Spirits might escape this, but they also fade into the Force after a short time and are unclear whether they could avoid a soul trap.



I am comparing it to other Tier 3s. Is this more powerful than a Warblade or Crusader? It's possible, but so far I doubt it.

With Fighter's bonus feats + the old Esper powers? At high levels they won out with 7 attacks each round at their highest attack bonus, ignoring 5 points of armor and shield and dealing 5d6 extra damage for -5 to hit, with a vorpal weapon (30% chance of vorpal activating every round) and a slew of other powers. Their esper powers allow them to dedicate their feats to melee, and still have a good ranged attacks, and non-combat abilities (Lightning, Sacrifice, Surge, Mind Trick), and much better AC (Wis + 6 better to be exact; so an attack that hits a Warblade or Crusader 50% of the time will not hit one of these, and an attack that hit a warblade or crusader 100% of the time will have a substantial chance of missing). With the toned down Esper Powers they're closer, but once the Esper Powers are finished that will be a power boost by giving them more options and versatility.

Ziegander
2010-09-25, 02:17 PM
It may or may not be worth mentioning that they also are not proficient with any shields.

Zaydos
2010-09-25, 02:22 PM
It may or may not be worth mentioning that they also are not proficient with any shields.

Unless you're going heavy shield you don't need to be, as Mw light shields and bucklers have no ACP. If you are going heavy shield then you can just pay 1000 extra GP for mithril and you have no ACP. What shield proficiency actually does is allow you to take Shield Specialization (not good), and Improved Buckler Defense (good if you intend to dual wield).

Edit: Shield proficiency is also useful if you decide to dual wield using your shield as your second weapon.

Ziegander
2010-09-25, 02:28 PM
Shield proficiency gives you an AC bonus (at least +2) that the Esper Knight doesn't have, is what I mean.

Zaydos
2010-09-25, 02:33 PM
Shield proficiency gives you an AC bonus (at least +2) that the Esper Knight doesn't have, is what I mean.

But it doesn't. You don't need to be proficient in a shield to use them; you just suffer a penalty to attack rolls equal to the shields ACP. A masterwork light shield (or buckler) has no ACP, and neither does a mithril heavy shield.

Ziegander
2010-09-25, 02:41 PM
Oh, I see what you mean. Meh... that is a bit of an oversight on my part... hrm... I hate the proficiency system. So many logic holes.

Zaydos
2010-09-25, 03:00 PM
Oh, I see what you mean. Meh... that is a bit of an oversight on my part... hrm... I hate the proficiency system. So many logic holes.

I can second that. I will say that this is definitely the best attempt at Jedi I've seen in 3.5 (on that note for fluff reasons [Jedi don't normally wear armor*] I'd say they don't need Wisdom to AC in armor). That's more of a fluff thing than a game mechanic complaint (and I wouldn't want to actually use a direct port of a Jedi in a 3.5 game).

*Exceptions: Sith sometimes wear Cortosis (or however you spell that) weave, and the Defenders from the obscure planet in I Jedi (which might have introduce cortosis weave) wore armor as well. They also didn't normally have super dodging skills like normal Jedi (could still deflect blasters).

Kobold-Bard
2010-09-25, 03:03 PM
So basically Warp Space let's you full attack around corners/through walls, or basically gives you Pounce without needing to actually charge first, since it's an attack action rather than a standard action?

InfiniteNothing
2010-09-25, 03:13 PM
Warp Space probably permits short-to-medium range teleportation as well, at my guess. After all, if you can manipulate the fabric of space to move part of you in position to attack why wouldn't you use it to move your whole person for travel?

Zaydos
2010-09-25, 03:17 PM
Warp Space needs a little clarification. Does as an attack action allow full-attacks? Can it be mixed with normal attacks? Do you need line of effect to do it?

Kobold-Bard
2010-09-25, 03:18 PM
Warp Space probably permits short-to-medium range teleportation as well, at my guess. After all, if you can manipulate the fabric of space to move part of you in position to attack why wouldn't you use it to move your whole person for travel?

Well yes, it says you get that with 3 or more Essentia Invested.

Though interestingly the teleportation needs line of sight, whereas the attack doesn't. So you can literally beat the crap out of people from the next street, but you can't teleport there.

Ziegander
2010-09-25, 03:30 PM
Yeah, I'm planning to add the line-of-sight clause to the attack action part.

And the clarifications Zaydos brought up will be addressed.

I've got a dilemma that I'll be working to iron out with Warp Space: making it a standard action makes it weaker than any of the other ranged Esper Powers, but making it an attack action makes it a bit more powerful than I want (I think).

Kobold-Bard
2010-09-25, 03:42 PM
Warp Space is you attacking with a weapon rather than a power, so may be it not allowing SR balances it?

InfiniteNothing
2010-09-25, 03:55 PM
*facepalms* Sorry, I made that post thinking Warp Space wasn't a full-blown power yet. Still, increasing the range (maybe 10 feet per point of invested essentia?) would be nice.

And I agree with having Warp Space not be affected by SR. The power itself is affecting you, not the other person. Now, if you were to use the power to move another person it would be applicable, but not if it's affecting you yourself.

Melayl
2010-09-25, 10:37 PM
I'm not going to comment on balance at this time (there are others better than I that can do that). I do have a few questions, though.

You don't state the essentia investment rate for the class. I assume it follows the MoI standard rate, but it would be good to specify that. Otherwise, it could be read as 1, +1 at 7th and 15th only.

For Esper Sacrifice, at what rate (if at all) are the sacrificed essentia regained? As it is worded right now, the would not be regained at all...

I may have more later. Interesting take, though.:smallsmile:

Kobold-Bard
2010-09-26, 02:02 AM
I'm not going to comment on balance at this time (there are others better than I that can do that). I do have a few questions, though.

You don't state the essentia investment rate for the class. I assume it follows the MoI standard rate, but it would be good to specify that. Otherwise, it could be read as 1, +1 at 7th and 15th only.

For Esper Sacrifice, at what rate (if at all) are the sacrificed essentia regained? As it is worded right now, the would not be regained at all...

I may have more later. Interesting take, though.:smallsmile:
You sacrifice HP, not Essentia. The invested Essentia tells you te cap on how many d6's you can trade (eg. 4 invested Essentia = 4d6 lost HP & 24 regained HP plus one condition removed). You never lose essentia.

Melayl
2010-09-26, 08:18 AM
You sacrifice HP, not Essentia. The invested Essentia tells you te cap on how many d6's you can trade (eg. 4 invested Essentia = 4d6 lost HP & 24 regained HP plus one condition removed). You never lose essentia.

Oops. I must have been too tired when reading that. :smallredface: Carry on then, carry on.

Kobold-Bard
2010-09-27, 02:16 AM
I know it's a 3 level dip, but Warp Space is actually kind of awesome for assassin type characters. You can Sneak/Death Attack from across the street. Did you decide whether it allows iterative attacks?

Looking forward to the rest of the abilities. I'm hoping to play one if they get done in time.

Ziegander
2010-09-28, 12:27 AM
I know it's a 3 level dip, but Warp Space is actually kind of awesome for assassin type characters. You can Sneak/Death Attack from across the street. Did you decide whether it allows iterative attacks?

I changed the wording to "Once per round/pt of invested Essentia, as an attack action..." which means you CAN full attack with it, but only if you have more than 1pt Essentia invested in it.


Looking forward to the rest of the abilities. I'm hoping to play one if they get done in time.

Working on 'em now! What are you going to play it in, if you don't mind me asking?

Kobold-Bard
2010-09-28, 01:52 AM
I changed the wording to "Once per round/pt of invested Essentia, as an attack action..." which means you CAN full attack with it, but only if you have more than 1pt Essentia invested in it.

Working on 'em now! What are you going to play it in, if you don't mind me asking?

Coolio.

It's an irl game. Basically what would happen if the basic d20Modern scenario (d&d monsters are into the real world, kill rhem/cover it up/join them) happened during WW2. It spawned from me mentioning a pc game that had werewolf SAS soldiers and zombie Nazis, and the DM ran with it.

mootoall
2011-09-15, 07:32 PM
Perhaps a feat for an extra esper ability? You don't get enough of them, if you ask me.

~Corvus~
2011-10-11, 01:57 PM
Even though you can re-allocate the essentia put into feats, Soul Conduit doesn't allow one to re-invest the amount of essentia into the feat, is that correct? (Otherwise things like Soul Conduit and Azure toughness become pretty powerful...)

gabrion
2011-10-11, 06:55 PM
As few things off the bat:

1) Overall love the class. Looks like tons of fun to play and all the time you must have put in really paid off.

2) It's powerful. More so than most melee classes. Full BAB? Check.
Second best HD? Check
Dex+Wis+medium armor to AC? Check.
Fighter Bonus feats? Check.
Extra melee dmg through class feature? Check. (plus ghost touch and vorpal)
More than 2x the essentia to play with than the pure martial Incarnum class, close to even with the 3/4 BAB and d8 HD one, and a few points behind the "pure" essentia class? Check.
A full set of special at-will abilities? Check.

I guess my point is that it really seems like you took the best (or near best) from a lot of classes and packed it all in. That's being really general, so let me talk about some specifics.
HD, BAB, Saves, Skills, Proficiencies: Seem normal for a martial character. Only high Will save stands out, but I see the reasoning behind it. As stated by others, lack of shield prof doesn't mean as much as it should.
Essentia: As I hinted above, the essentia pool for esper knights seems a bit out of whack to me. Sure on the chart it says they cap out at 15, but this is deceiving. As you yourself pointed out, one reason for all the bonus feats is because presumably they will be picking up a bunch of incarnum feats. These bonus feats are a hidden portion of their essential pool, which at cap will be at least 20, probably more. Instead of just 20 essentia though, that's 15 essentia + 5 bonus essentia points, each with a cool ability added to it. More on feats below.
Soul Conduit: I can't help but feel like not being able to adjust essentia in incarnum feats is a mechanic that's there for a good reason. You're likely to have Cobalt Charge, Cobalt Expertise, Cobalt Power, Cerulean Reflexes, and Midnight Dodge, just to name a few. Unlike characters who have to decide once per day how heavily to invest in any of those feats you can: Max Cobalt Charge before joining combat to ensure first contact is messy, then empty it next round.
Turn on Expertise and pump Cobalt Expertise when wading into groups of enemies (perhaps "tanking" for the group).
Use PA with Cobalt Power against enemies you have no trouble hitting, but dump it whenever facing high AC enemies.
Boost your poor reflex saves when facing casters, but empty Cerulean Reflexes when unlikely to be making reflex saves.
Pump your dodge AC in "duel" type scenarios, but dump it when enhanced defenses against one enemy wont make much difference.
Besides all this, a one level dip to pick up soul conduit opens up abuse from spellcasters looking for an easy way to exploit Midnight Metamagic.
I guess my point is that the designers created incarnum feats with the mindset that essentia invested in them was "spent" for the day. This level 1 class ability totally throws that paradigm out the window.
Spirit Blade: A few things here... A note on wording - right now it seems that no matter how much essentia you invest, you only get 1d6 extra dmg. "As long as 1 point of essentia is invested into this ability any weapon wielded by the Esper Knight deals 1d6 extra positive energy damage (full damage to objects, double damage to undead, does not heal living creatures), and {implies the first clause is independent of what comes next and is static as long as at least one point of essentia is invested} ignores 1pt of shield bonus and 1pt of armor bonus per {seems to apply only to ignoring shield/armor} pt of invested essentia..." I assumed your intent was to have 1d6 dmg/essentia, but if not no change is needed.
The armor/shield bypassing is pretty powerful, but makes sense. Even with the inherent attack penalty built in, you still come out ahead vs. a lot of enemies.
Ghost Touch/Vorpal for "free" are extremely powerful. Like Soul Conduit, part of the problem here is placement. Unless I'm missing something your local Totemist can dip one level of this class, keep spirit blade full, and get his standard list of multiple natural attacks, all bypassing 5 armor, 5 shield bonus, gaining 5d6 dmg each, ghost touch, and all vorpal.
AC Bonus: Like others, I don't understand why we're giving an extra stat bonus to AC while wearing medium armor. With the level based cap though, I can stomach this. I would clarify wording though for the sake of "text trumps table" arguments. Also, Wis not being a primary stat holds less water when you consider a few things. Monk/Ninja dip give Wis to AC again, since there's no exclusion clause.
A good character using the Intuitive Strikes feat from BoED and a Q-staff (or the totemist who splashed this for the weapon boost and uses natural weapons) replaces Str with Wis for attacks.
Anyone using the Oriental Adventures can dip Shiba Protector 1 to add Wis to attack and dmg (doesn't replace, is additional bonus). Granted it's a thematic PrC and hard to justify using, but just sayin.
Feats: Like basically everyone else, I agree that giving nearly the same bonus feat progression as fighters doesn't make sense. I know you're trying to stand by this, but when pretty much everyone who reads a class agrees that one aspect is wrong, well...
Esper Power: Also like others, I'd rather see access to a few more of these rather than all the bonus feats. Two more using a 3, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20 progression would make sense to me. I won't go through each Esper Power (may do that later), but will point out that a "tier" system would make sense both thematically and power wise. It seems like certain esper powers should be available right off the bat, while others should have a tag that says "must be lvl X in order to chose this power."

Suggestion: I highly recommend putting some sort of exclusionary clause in this class that forces characters to either 1)Stay pure in it or 2) Give up certain benefits if they multiclass (I'm looking at you Soul Conduit and Spirit Blade). This would prevent abuse that is currently possibly by dipping first level just for those abilities. Plus it just makes sense...once you go Jedi, you never go back. :)

I do apologize if the tone of this post is negative, but I figure PEACH posts are looking for people to critique areas that might need work. Overall I really do love the concept and by no means think it's anywhere near unplayable as is.

If you want to pay me back for all the negativity, I posted my first Homebrew PrC, the Totem Chanter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218366), and could use some feedback. :) It's Incarnum based, so another set of eyes with a handle on that system is always welcome to help me with it.

Daverin
2011-10-11, 07:47 PM
Err... Guess I need to be the one to point out the rather high level thread necromancy going on here. :smalltongue:

gabrion
2011-10-11, 08:22 PM
Lol, that's what I get for just assuming a thread on the first page is current. Note to self: check the date time on the OP in the future. :)

I feel especially silly since I did such a lengthy write up. Oh well, maybe the OP will see it eventually and get something out of it.

Mathias1313
2011-11-16, 12:39 AM
I could be wrong but I thought thread Necromancy only applied after the 3rd page of posts?

Anyways, are there any updates for any new Esper Powers?