[D&D 4e] I like Assassins.

[vasharanpaladin]

The Assassin is a DDI-exclusive class, and the only Shadow Striker... the only Shadow class, period. Yes, it's seen a revamp in the form of the D&D Essentials class "Executioner"... but that's a Martial class. The concept was sound, it deserves better, I think.

That being said, and having played the original Assassin (a Night Stalker, for those curious), I've found myself dissatisfied with its performance. Yes, it's almost completely unmatched for mobility. Yes, it feels very ninja-like. No, it does not come across as a particularly good Striker.

Let's be frank: The original 4e Assassin class fails completely at its intended combat role.

I want to fix that. I've got a few ideas (not the least of which is "WHY do Assassins want BUSTER SWORDS!?"), but no one to bounce them off of. So I turn to you, fellow homebrewers! I need someone willing to help rebuild the Assassin from the ground up (though, naturally, it was my intention to recycle as much of the powers and flavor text as I was able, to save some effort).

'Tis a sound plan, with a most desirous goal: Bring a class with awesome flavor up to par mechanically. WHO WILL JOIN ME!? :smallbiggrin:

[Zaydos]

I like the flavor of assassin, but I'm not the most familiar with 4e and I don't have DDI so I'll only be of limited usefulness. I do agree that they rather fail to live up to the striker role from what I've seen (it was a party with 4 strikers, a defender and a leader; the assassin dealt the least damage of any of the strikers and was the 3rd most mobile member of the party after the monk and the teleportation focused swordmage) and would like to see what the playground does with them.

[Reverent-One]

I'm curious, since I haven't played an Assassins myself, how exactly does the class fail at being a striker? It has a damage boosting class feature much like the others, though the Assassin's is more action intensive, so that could hurt it. Are the powers generally lower [W] or, for the powers that aren't weapon based, lower set die types?

[vasharanpaladin]

I'm curious, since I haven't played an Assassins myself, how exactly does the class fail at being a striker? It has a damage boosting class feature much like the others, though the Assassin's is more action intensive, so that could hurt it. Are the powers generally lower [W] or, for the powers that aren't weapon based, lower set die types?

It's not anything to do with "action intensive." Rangers and Warlocks require minor actions to gain their extra damage, much worse than the Assassin's free action. The problem is that the Assassin's damage is backloaded; his damage doesn't step up until long after everything's dead. Not to mention the "damage-boosting feature" (and I use that term lightly) scales horribly through Paragon and Epic, and the placement of secondaries makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to keep pace with other Strikers, that is, Assassins find it very difficult to get Weapon Mastery for Dex-intensive weapons like blades, and downright impossible for Con-requiring weapons like axes or hammers.

Compounding this is the fact that they don't get very many dice to throw around with their attacks, they get no off-action attacks, and their dailies, quite frankly, suck aboleth face. In short, when compared to any Striker other than a Ranger (which no other class can hope to match anyway, but that's beside the point), the Assassin falls woefully short in terms of at-will DPR, per-encounter spiking, and daily nova rounds.

Besides that, the Assassin's class features facilitate movement. It doesn't take much effort to make an Assassin that gets around purely by teleporting. Which, frankly, is nice in theory, but it's not the point of a Striker. And, in the same vein, shade form could be a very nice way to cushion those squishy Controller HPs, if it didn't stop him from making attack rolls, that is to say, from doing his job.

Tl;dr version: The so-called "Assassin" published in DR379 is nothing so much as a revamped Shadowdancer given a horrifically sub-par damage feature and powers that seem to be drawn more from "looks cool" than "actually useful." And on a lesser note, it's not restricted to small, easily-hidden weapons, so we get the patently ridiculous image of a ninja swinging a hammer bigger than she is. :smallannoyed:

[Nu]

The executioner seemed pretty powerful. It's not just martial, it says its martial AND shadow, so do you have a problem with that build in particular? I guess the lack of options is kind of stifling, but that's pretty par for the course with the assassin.

[vasharanpaladin]

I have a problem with what Essentials does to Martial classes in particular, yes, and no love for using it as an excuse to water down a perfectly good concept just because it was screwed up the first time. :smallyuk:

[Reverent-One]

It's not anything to do with "action intensive." Rangers and Warlocks require minor actions to gain their extra damage, much worse than the Assassin's free action. The problem is that the Assassin's damage is backloaded; his damage doesn't step up until long after everything's dead. Not to mention the "damage-boosting feature" (and I use that term lightly) scales horribly through Paragon and Epic, and the placement of secondaries makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to keep pace with other Strikers, that is, Assassins find it very difficult to get Weapon Mastery for Dex-intensive weapons like blades, and downright impossible for Con-requiring weapons like axes or hammers.

Huh, it wasn't till I looked just now that I noticed that the shrouds are put on the target as a free action, not a minor. That said, several questions. How is there damage backloaded? While they can wait to trigger the shrouds so that they deal a larger amount of damage at once, they could also put a shroud on someone, attack them and invoke the shroud and get the exact same damage boost a ranger or warlock gets from their damage boosting class feature. And the while the shrouds could get a bit more damage per tier, how is being a grand total of .5 average damage per tier behind the default Ranger and Warlock's damage boosters "scaling horribly"? Finally, just to make sure, you're saying the Weapon Mastery feats are hard to get because of the STR requirement, right? Because assassins would have little trouble meeting the Dex or Con requirements for the feats.


Compounding this is the fact that they don't get very many dice to throw around with their attacks, they get no off-action attacks, and their dailies, quite frankly, suck aboleth face. In short, when compared to any Striker other than a Ranger (which no other class can hope to match anyway, but that's beside the point), the Assassin falls woefully short in terms of at-will DPR, per-encounter spiking, and daily nova rounds.

Besides that, the Assassin's class features facilitate movement. It doesn't take much effort to make an Assassin that gets around purely by teleporting. Which, frankly, is nice in theory, but it's not the point of a Striker. And, in the same vein, shade form could be a very nice way to cushion those squishy Controller HPs, if it didn't stop him from making attack rolls, that is to say, from doing his job.

Tl;dr version: The so-called "Assassin" published in DR379 is nothing so much as a revamped Shadowdancer given a horrifically sub-par damage feature and powers that seem to be drawn more from "looks cool" than "actually useful." And on a lesser note, it's not restricted to small, easily-hidden weapons, so we get the patently ridiculous image of a ninja swinging a hammer bigger than she is. :smallannoyed:

This I have little to argue with, other than the fact that there's nothing wrong with the Assassin not being restricted to just small weapons. If you don't want your "ninja" swinging a massive hammer, don't get it. Perhaps someone else likes their character that traded away part of their soul for dark powers carrying a great-axe or whatever.

[Ceiling009]

The main issue for the Assassin, is that it's actual power damage values. Also, shrouds are all or nothing thing -> you can't pop them after an attack, you gotta pop them as part of; it only guarantees damage on a whiff.

If you look through the powers, the damage is just... really low. If you could beef up the damage values, that alone would start making it on par with other strikers.

Two, I think if you remove the line "Only on your turn" from Assassin's Shroud, it would be leaps and bounds better; since you could then actually setup nova strikes. Or add an at-will at confers a shroud and some damage.

The new Essentials Assassin, is very much a nova striker. I think those changes would put it on par.

[vasharanpaladin]

@Reverent-One: It's poor scaling because the Assassin has no Killing Curse or Lethal Hunter feat, and backloaded because the nature of the shrouds makes the Assassin impossible to rely on in a fight where you have three other people pounding on the guy you're targeting. And, while I realize it calls to mind the Death Attack feature of 3.x's Assassin, one must realize that the flavor and role of the Assassin calls to mind one who wants to drop a target as quickly as possible.

And the hammer thing was a (relatively) minor nitpick. I want to bring the power up to par first, then I can worry about weapon restrictions. :smalltongue:

@Ceiling009: In the sense that Attack Finesse and assassin's strike are very much improvements over the shrouds, I agree somewhat on the Essassin. But what I don't like is that they watered it down into "rogue with some shadow flavor." And they're acting like the Ossassin never happened, which is why I'm working with that one.

As for your suggestions... they certainly seem easier than what I had in mind (involving filching Attack Finesse and assassin's strike from the new one). Any suggestions as to how I should go about increasing power, specifically? :smallamused:

[Reverent-One]

@Reverent-One: It's poor scaling because the Assassin has no Killing Curse or Lethal Hunter feat, and backloaded because the nature of the shrouds makes the Assassin impossible to rely on in a fight where you have three other people pounding on the guy you're targeting. And, while I realize it calls to mind the Death Attack feature of 3.x's Assassin, one must realize that the flavor and role of the Assassin calls to mind one who wants to drop a target as quickly as possible.

Except the lack of a Killing Curse or Lethal Hunter feat is a problem with the feat support of the Assassin, not the shrouds class feature. Compared to just the Warlock's Curse or Hunter's Quarry, it's does pretty much the same amount of damage as they do across the tiers. What about the shrouds makes the assassin impossible to rely on with other people attacking the guy? In that case, the Assassin should be invoking his shrouds (well, singular shroud at that point) every turn, meaning it would work just like a Curse or a Quarry does, an extra d6 (or the average of one) per tier every time you hit, none if you miss.

[vasharanpaladin]

Except the lack of a Killing Curse or Lethal Hunter feat is a problem with the feat support of the Assassin, not the shrouds class feature. Compared to just the Warlock's Curse or Hunter's Quarry, it's does pretty much the same amount of damage as they do across the tiers. What about the shrouds makes the assassin impossible to rely on with other people attacking the guy? In that case, the Assassin should be invoking his shrouds (well, singular shroud at that point) every turn, meaning it would work just like a Curse or a Quarry does, an extra d6 (or the average of one) per tier every time you hit, none if you miss.

Except for the important thing: Curse or Quarry stays intact on a miss. Shrouds don't. If you hit, great, extra damage, but regardless, you lose the shrouds if you choose to invoke them. The Night Stalker class feature is more reliable as a damage boost.

But, shrouds notwithstanding, there's still the problem with the Assassin's powers themselves. No fix is going to be effective unless those are dealt with, regardless of whether the shrouds are touched.

EDIT: The Bleak Disciple class feature as well... no Striker can gain much benefit from a feature that rewards them for not finishing the job.

[Ceiling009]

I think easiest way to go about it: Make a new Guild Build or whatever.

First; over all fixes need to go to the Assassin, namely shroud loading. While it's alright to use a turn to load a shroud, then attack and not pop them; you're still basically losing out on actual striker damage. Change the line by removing "only on your turn". Then it solves the issue with the ridiculous set ups. You might want to slightly beef up their HP, it's very not good for someone who has to actually get next to something to kill it.

The problem with the powers currently is they're closer to control powers, with lots of effects on hit, but low damage.

Two; make a new type of build. Night Disciple seems half thought out; you don't want to be hitting unbloodied opponents, unless it's the first strike of the encounter. Night Stalker works fine. It needs to be more execution-y, and with powers that do less effects, and more killing.

[Reverent-One]

Except for the important thing: Curse or Quarry stays intact on a miss. Shrouds don't. If you hit, great, extra damage, but regardless, you lose the shrouds if you choose to invoke them. The Night Stalker class feature is more reliable as a damage boost.

Yes, Curse and Quarry stay "intact" on a miss, but they also don't do anything on one either. Shrouds are no worse in that regard, and since you can just put another shroud on the target as a free action next round before you attack, shrouds are as reliable as Curse or Quarry damage is. The powers of the Assassin might need a fix, but unless there's something else that's wrong with the shrouds, those work just fine.

[Zaydos]

Yes, Curse and Quarry stay "intact" on a miss, but they also don't do anything on one either. Shrouds are no worse in that regard, and since you can just put another shroud on the target as a free action next round before you attack, shrouds are as reliable as Curse or Quarry damage is. The powers of the Assassin might need a fix, but unless there's something else that's wrong with the shrouds, those work just fine.

It's when you get multiple attacks per round. A ranger can make all his attacks find out which hit and then decide which to activate quarry damage on; a warlock gets to activate after confirming a hit as well. With the number of abilities that can either grant you a free attack, make multiple attacks (note I don't know the assassin's power list so I don't know if they have any of these), or just spending action points for one, this makes the +1 damage per shroud on a miss a whole lot less appealing. Although it is useful when fighting minions.

[Reverent-One]

It's when you get multiple attacks per round. A ranger can make all his attacks find out which hit and then decide which to activate quarry damage on; a warlock gets to activate after confirming a hit as well. With the number of abilities that can either grant you a free attack, make multiple attacks (note I don't know the assassin's power list so I don't know if they have any of these), or just spending action points for one, this makes the +1 damage per shroud on a miss a whole lot less appealing. Although it is useful when fighting minions.

Ah, that's an interesting point. If the Assassin does have powers that allow multiple attacks, the way shrouds work could be a problem. However, if pretty much all their powers are single attack powers, you'll really only lose potential damage from times when you use as action point. Which is something that should be corrected, but it also isn't going to greatly affect your damage output overall.

[vasharanpaladin]

Ah, that's an interesting point. If the Assassin does have powers that allow multiple attacks, the way shrouds work could be a problem. However, if pretty much all their powers are single attack powers, you'll really only lose potential damage from times when you use as action point. Which is something that should be corrected, but it also isn't going to greatly affect your damage output overall.

It does and it doesn't. Every tier's got at least one encounter power that requires three attack rolls, but the resolution's a little confusing for those. That said, Ceiling's idea seems to be the best, I find it much more appealing to make the smallest change I can, when possible. :smallbiggrin:

So what I'm thinking, then, is just to do exactly as he says for the start of it: Increase HPs to standard Striker levels (7 + Con + 5/level), fix wording of the shrouds, and then fiddle with a new build, Con-secondary or otherwise. Still want to make them not like BFS's so much, but hey, can't win it all, right? :smalltongue:

EDIT: The revised assassin's shroud power, with Ceiling's suggested change (copypasta):


Assassin's Shroud Assassin Feature
You cause invisible shrouds to settle on your foe. At your command, the shrouds reveal the target's weak points to your keen gaze.
At-Will @ Shadow
Free Action (Special) Close burst 10
Target: One enemy you can see in burst
Effect: You subject the target to your shroud. If any of your shrouds are already on the target, you subject it to an additional shroud, up to a maximum of four. The shrouds last until you use this power against a different enemy or until the end of the encounter.
Before you make an attack roll against the target, you choose to invoke either all your shrouds on it or none of them. If you invoke your shrouds, the attack deals 1d6 damage per shroud, minus one shroud if the attack misses, and all your shrouds then vanish from the target. This damage roll never benefits from bonuses to damage rolls, and is in addition to the attack's damage, if any.
Level 11: 1d6 + 3 damage per shroud.
Level 21: 1d6 + 6 damage per shroud.
Special: You can use this power only once per turn.

[Reverent-One]

It does and it doesn't. Every tier's got at least one encounter power that requires three attack rolls, but the resolution's a little confusing for those. That said, Ceiling's idea seems to be the best, I find it much more appealing to make the smallest change I can, when possible. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: The revised assassin's shroud power, with Ceiling's suggested change (copypasta):


Assassin's Shroud Assassin Feature
You cause invisible shrouds to settle on your foe. At your command, the shrouds reveal the target's weak points to your keen gaze.
At-Will @ Shadow
Free Action (Special) Close burst 10
Target: One enemy you can see in burst
Effect: You subject the target to your shroud. If any of your shrouds are already on the target, you subject it to an additional shroud, up to a maximum of four. The shrouds last until you use this power against a different enemy or until the end of the encounter.
Before you make an attack roll against the target, you choose to invoke either all your shrouds on it or none of them. If you invoke your shrouds, the attack deals 1d6 damage per shroud, minus one shroud if the attack misses, and all your shrouds then vanish from the target. This damage roll never benefits from bonuses to damage rolls, and is in addition to the attack's damage, if any.
Level 11: 1d6 + 3 damage per shroud.
Level 21: 1d6 + 6 damage per shroud.
Special: You can use this power only once per turn.


...So assuming at least a party of 4, on every turn a level one Assassin's attacks deal whatever damage the power deals + 4d6, and on a miss deals 3d6. Well, you've definitely made it so that Assassin isn't underpowered anymore, now it's even makes the ranger cry.

[vasharanpaladin]

...So assuming at least a party of 4, on every turn a level one Assassin's attacks deal whatever damage the power deals + 4d6, and on a miss deals 3d6. Well, you've definitely made it so that Assassin isn't underpowered anymore, now it's even makes the ranger cry.

I'll remind you whose suggestion that was. My idea involved replacing that power and going through every option available to fix the ones that relied on it. As I said, I would very much prefer the smallest change possible. :smalleek:

EDIT: I apologize if that came off as needlessly vitriolic. I've found it helps to put things up where people can look over your shoulder, as it were. :smallredface:

[Reverent-One]

I'll remind you whose suggestion that was. My idea involved replacing that power and going through every option available to fix the ones that relied on it. As I said, I would very much prefer the smallest change possible. :smalleek:

EDIT: I apologize if that came off as needlessly vitriolic. I've found it helps to put things up where people can look over your shoulder, as it were. :smallredface:

It's ok. And while you didn't come up with the idea, you did apparently like it enough to write out the full class feature with it. My suggestion to deal with multiple attacks would be something like this:

Before you make any attack roll against the target on your turn, you choose to invoke either all your shrouds on it or none of them. If you invoke your shrouds, the shrouds deal 1d6 damage per shroud, minus one shroud if all attacks on your turn miss, and all your shrouds then vanish from the target. This damage roll never benefits from bonuses to damage rolls, if any.

[vasharanpaladin]

It's ok. And while you didn't come up with the idea, you did apparently like it enough to write out the full class feature with it. My suggestion to deal with multiple attacks would be something like this:

Before you make any attack roll against the target on your turn, you choose to invoke either all your shrouds on it or none of them. If you invoke your shrouds, the shrouds deal 1d6 damage per shroud, minus one shroud if all attacks on your turn miss, and all your shrouds then vanish from the target. This damage roll never benefits from bonuses to damage rolls, if any.

I'd already had it written up so that I could make my changes. All I had to do was delete a few keystrokes. :smallredface:

But this is good! It's progress, at least, and more than I'd gotten when I was trying to work it out with somebody over MSN. I have to remember to bring this stuff to the fora more often. :smallsmile:

[Sir Homeslice]

Assassin's Shroud Assassin Feature
You cause invisible shrouds to settle on your foe. At your command, the shrouds reveal the target's weak points to your keen gaze.
At-Will @ Shadow
Free Action (Special) Close burst 10
Target: One enemy you can see in burst
Effect: You subject the target to your shroud. If any of your shrouds are already on the target, you subject it to an additional shroud, up to a maximum of four. The shrouds last until you use this power against a different enemy or until the end of the encounter.
Before you make an attack roll against the target, you choose to invoke either all your shrouds on it or none of them. If you invoke your shrouds, the attack deals 1d6 damage per shroud, minus one shroud if the attack misses, and all your shrouds then vanish from the target. This damage roll never benefits from bonuses to damage rolls, and is in addition to the attack's damage, if any.
Level 11: 1d6 + 3 damage per shroud.
Level 21: 1d6 + 6 damage per shroud.
Special: You can use this power only once per turn.


I don't see any difference whatsoever between this and the pre-existing Shroud mechanic.

[Reverent-One]

I don't see any difference whatsoever between this and the pre-existing Shroud mechanic.

It's once per turn there, and since it's a free action you can use it on your turn, your first buddy's turn, your second buddy's turn, ect and so on.

[Sir Homeslice]

It's once per turn there, and since it's a free action you can use it on your turn, your first buddy's turn, your second buddy's turn, ect and so on.

So why not cut the complication and make it a straight free action 4d6/4d6+12/4d6+24 damage striker mechanic at 1/11/21?

[vasharanpaladin]

So why not cut the complication and make it a straight free action 4d6/4d6+12/4d6+24 damage striker mechanic at 1/11/21?

That was what he was picking at earlier, the aforementioned "makes a Ranger cry." :smallwink:

[Ceiling009]

Well, actually, without any tampering with the old builds, the puts them on par with the Ranger. Remember, even Assassin dailies aren't that damaging. While the Executioner doesn't have any dailies, so it has the insane Assassin's Strike feature (something in the range of 9d10 + 3d6 + attack at level 30ish).

To keep more inline, just take out that extra pluses at 11 and 21 levels. So it's a flat D6 per shroud. Or you could just make it a step up, I haven't run the numbers, but 1d6 at heroic per shroud, 1d8 at paragon per shroud, and 1d10 at epic. That's probably a bit much; but then again, you aren't worrying about +12 at paragon or +24 at epic... which is a lot flat damage. Hmm.m, you might want to cap the maximum shroud to 3. Since now, it's much easier to actually get the shrouds on.

Hey, I'm just giving ideas, and while I love to completely make new class features, I hate writing classes. So trying fix the Assassin is a little easier than... rewriting it completely.

[vasharanpaladin]

Hey, I'm just giving ideas, and while I love to completely make new class features, I hate writing classes. So trying fix the Assassin is a little easier than... rewriting it completely.

QFT. Except we probably shouldn't be comparing it directly to the Ranger... and if we're keeping the powers as given, it definitely needs more +Striker options.... :smalleek:

[Yakk]

The first thing about 4e strikers is that they are all sub-par without a certain kind of technique.

Ranger's are sub-par strikers without Twin Strike and minor/immediate action attacks, and then as much static damage as they can get.

Warlocks are sub-par strikers without being able to trigger their at-will power punishments... at-will. Self-damaging Rebuke, etc. Warlock damage encounter/dailies tend to suck.

Sorcerers are decent strikers if they are Wizards with Sorcerer MC.

Barbarians are sub-par strikers unless they grab off-turn and multi-attacks that show up at mid-levels.

Rogues are sub-par strikers at paragon and above unless they take daggermaster or something equally tasty.

Avengers are sup-par strikers because their class feature rocks, but nearly every Avenger attack power is a crappy striker power.

4e strikers who want to be able to continue to kill even-level opponents in 4 rounds on average (which they can all do at low levels) need to pick an increasingly narrow set of options.

The Assassin's problem is that its striker feature is about as good as HQ or Warlock's Curse (without riders), but unlike the Warlock/Ranger it doesn't have a good at-will. The Assassin at-wills are so bad, a strength-based assassin who just uses basic attacks (or a dex-based assassin who just uses basic ranged attacks) might be a better option than using Assassin at-wills.

Assassin encounter powers tend to be poor as well -- an extra [w] is a trivial amount of damage to any character who is keeping up with monster HP in damage output. Good encounter powers add taps, lay on crippling debuffs, or otherwise are not just "an extra [w] with a weak rider".

Assassin dailies are just as bad. Few have encounter-long striker-boosting riders.

And a lack of feat support can cripple a class, and assassin feat support is abysmal.

The assassin guilds -- one grants temporary HP (a poor striker feature), and the other grants +cha to damage on a relatively rare condition (a mediocre striker feature) -- are disappointing.

L1 encounter:
Gloom Thief: CA for 1 turn, defensive buff, extra W damage.
Nightmare Shades: +1d8 extra damage, ranged, CA for 1 turn, +3 power damage bonus for 1 turn
Shadow Darts: Rather-decent -- 3 chances to crit, low miss chance.
Smothering Shadow: +[W], slows, +secondary
L 1 daily:
Grave Spike: +[W]+9 damage, a few fall prone. +2 power bonus to attack rolls (weaker than villians menace, the fighter version)
Strangling Shadow: Crappy striker, half-decent controller power
Targetted for Death: +1d6 damage/round or so, mediocre based damage (for a daily).
Terrifying Visage: Immobalize, poor damage, at-will-wizard-level push-based control.

etc. The Assassin is a striker nominally -- but it has a mediocre striker features, and powers that look like watered-down controller powers with an extra die of damage on them.

Twilight Assassin and Black Garrot are about the only exceptions to this rule.

Basically, half-decent strikers can hit 2*level+6 damage per round on average (including misses) without doing anything really cheesy on a nearly at-will basis. The Assassin needs to work really, really hard to approach that level of damage output.

---

Many other strikers have "Shticks". Rangers attack alot (which helps them land HQ and static damage bonuses frequently), Rogues get crazy-accurate and then deliver their high backstab damage reliably, Sorcerers get high static damage modifiers/crit dice and do area attacks, Barbarians lack a striker feature and instead get half-decent encounter powers and big weapons, Warlocks play with life and fate (damaging themselves to hurt enemies etc), Avengers get 2 chances to crit and 2 chances to hit (and powers that make basic attacks look decent), which is nearly as good as attacking twice (really!). And Monks get full disciplines, and a striker mechanic that doesn't have to damage the target you hit, and decent area attacks (for a non-sorcerer/wizard).

Assassins lack anything like that.

Their shrouds are not enough to carry the class.

---

If I where to rework the Assassin, I'd make their powers not deal multiple-[W] damage -- just [W] damage, with bonus rolls.

The shroud-invoking mechanic needs work. Instead of being 1d6 per shroud, I'd have powers that are based off eating shrouds.

So your at-will powers might require 1 shroud, and generate 1 unit of kick.

Your encounter powers might require 2 shrouds, and generate 2 units of kick.

Your daily powers might require 3 shrouds, and generate 3 units of kick.

When you miss, you could burn a shroud to reroll the attack.

Maybe eating more shrouds generates a larger effect on some powers.

[Ceiling009]

Well, the nice thing about shrouds, really is that they're auto-damage even if you miss.

You could build a new... Build on the shroud eating mechanic, where if you miss a shrouded target, you could just burn the shrouds for a re-roll with bonuses for every shroud burned (+1 to max of +3).

Their schtick for the build could be powers that add shrouds on hits, at least the At-wills, and encounters and dailies could add more effects dependent on shrouds.

Like lets' say one of the encounter powers does maybe [W], and if you wanna pop your shrouds for extra damage, okay... or you could pop them for more effects, like blind.

You know what the major problem is with the Assassin? While I'm thinking about it, is that really, it's a melee controller with a few actual ranged controller powers. I'm not sure why it's labeled as striker, when even with the change of shrouds to being any turn; it still does sub-par striker duty I think.

[vasharanpaladin]

...

Sorcerers are decent strikers if they are Wizards with Sorcerer MC.

...

The Assassin's problem is that its striker feature is about as good as HQ or Warlock's Curse (without riders), but unlike the Warlock/Ranger it doesn't have a good at-will. The Assassin at-wills are so bad, a strength-based assassin who just uses basic attacks (or a dex-based assassin who just uses basic ranged attacks) might be a better option than using Assassin at-wills.

Assassin encounter powers tend to be poor as well -- an extra [w] is a trivial amount of damage to any character who is keeping up with monster HP in damage output. Good encounter powers add taps, lay on crippling debuffs, or otherwise are not just "an extra [w] with a weak rider".

Assassin dailies are just as bad. Few have encounter-long striker-boosting riders.

And a lack of feat support can cripple a class, and assassin feat support is abysmal.

The assassin guilds -- one grants temporary HP (a poor striker feature), and the other grants +cha to damage on a relatively rare condition (a mediocre striker feature) -- are disappointing.

...

Basically, half-decent strikers can hit 2*level+6 damage per round on average (including misses) without doing anything really cheesy on a nearly at-will basis. The Assassin needs to work really, really hard to approach that level of damage output.

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Many other strikers have "Shticks"...Assassins lack anything like that.

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1) I disagree, Wizards don't need to multiclass to upstage Sorcerers. Personal experience, yo. :smallbiggrin:

2) Exactly! Except replace "lack of feat support" with "lack of feat support for offensive output." Also, I've found that Night Stalker's trigger comes up much more often than people seem to think, especially when working with a Univenger. Let the less squishy idiots cull a sheep from the herd, then tag it for your extra damage.

3) I think I tried to say that earlier, but I couldn't get it out around my foot. :smalleek:

4) If the Executioner's any clue, I think the Assassin's "shtick" was supposed to be the 1/encounter damage spike. Which is, when you think about it, what the shrouds were supposed to communicate... except to say those were done poorly would be an insult to poor people everywhere. :smallyuk:

Anyway, thanks for your input, I'll need some time to actually read more than what I just commented on! :smallsmile:

[Yakk]

Hmm. We should make Assassins into Lurkers.

Standard action powers that don't do damage, but instead give a huge boost to your next attack. Stealth kickers all around the place (like the current assassin), but now the stealth is useful, because you only have to engage every 2nd round.

Standard action traps that require that there be no enemies in it to start.

An at-will that lets you keep hidden if you miss with it.
An at-will that gives you a bonus to accuracy if you are hidden from the target.
Keep executioners noose.

Powers that deal 1[W], plus extra dice of damage that don't depend on your W.

Powers that don't use [W]s, but are weapon powers.

Those last few mean that high-damage weapons are not needed.

Oh, and with the ability to use Ki Focus to enchant weapons, and a one-attack, two-rounds pattern, the character has more than enough time to change out weapons.