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View Full Version : [3.5] Expanded Spell-Thief [PEACH and stuff]



Pechvarry
2010-09-26, 06:16 PM
So this started out as a project of me doing 2 things: the first was making a spell-thief capable in a world that uses a lot of alt systems (such as Binders and Psionics). The second was simple power ups using this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7817938&postcount=23) post as a guideline.

In this spoiler box is the original Spell-Thief chart cleaned up some to reveal some semi-dead levels:

Old Spell-Thief{table]1|"Sneak attack +1d6, steal spell, trapfinding"
2|"Detect Magic, spellgrace +1, steal spell effect"
3|"Steal energy resistance 10"
4|
5|"Sneak attack +2d6, steal spell-like ability"
6|
7|"Absorb spell"
8|
9|"Arcane sight, sneak attack +3d6"
10|
11|"Spellgrace +2, steal energy resistance 20"
12|
13|"Discover spells, sneak attack +4d6"
14|
15|"Steal spell resistance"
16|
17|"Sneak attack +5d6"
18|
19|"Steal energy resistance 30"
20|"Absorb spell (immediate casting), spellgrace +3"[/table]

Assuming the text remains the same for Steal Spell, you don't need the redundant table entries.

From there, it spiraled out of control quickly.

Here's my new chart:
{table]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special Abilities
1|0|0|2|2|Sneak attack +1d6, steal spell, trapfinding
2|1|0|3|3|Detect Magic, spellgrace, steal spell effect
3|2|1|3|3|Steal energy resistance 10, evasion
4|3|1|4|4|Mettle, diligent magician
5|3|1|4|4|Sneak attack +2d6, steal spell-like ability
6|4|2|5|5|Discover spells, spellthief forte
7|5|2|5|5|Absorb spell
8|6|2|6|6|Diligent learner
9|6|3|6|6|Arcane sight, sneak attack +3d6
10|7|3|7|7|Steal spell resistance 5, spellthief forte
11|8|3|7|7|Steal energy resistance 20
12|9|4|8|8|Diligent learner
13|9|4|8|8|Sneak attack +4d6
14|10|4|9|9|Spellthief forte, Spellsink
15|11|5|9|9|Steal spell resistance 10
16|12|5|10|10|Diligent learner, Greater Arcane Sight
17|12|5|10|10|Sneak attack +5d6
18|13|6|11|11|Spellthief forte
19|14|6|11|11|Steal energy resistance 30
20|15|6|12|12|Absorb spell (immediate casting), diligent learner, steal spell resistance 15[/table]

What's the same: Any class feature I don't mention. The spellcasting progression tables are also unchanged, despite being unlisted.

What's changed: A nice chunk. Mostly minor wording changes with large lasting effects.

Caster level: is now full class level.

Reflex save: is now strong.

Spellgrace: Add charisma to saving throws and armor class vs spells and spell-like abilities.

Discover Spells: comes earlier but unchanged.

Steal Spell: if the Spell-thief's caster level or save DC is higher, they may use their stats instead. In fact, they can mix-and match to get the most out of it. For example, a 10th level Spell-thief could steal a 1st level spell from a Swashbuckler 8/Wizard 1 and use the swashbuckler's superior INT for the save DC and their own 10th level caster level for determining the spell's effects.

Steal Spell Effect: While this ability still cannot steal effects which are incompatible with your type, remove the stipulation about stealing personal-range spells.

Steal Spell-like Ability: Instead of having a max effective level of 1/3rd your Spell-Thief class level, use the following: The maximum level of the spell-like ability stolen is equal to the highest level spell you can steal with the Steal spell ability.

Absorb Spell: 2 changes: First, area spells are affected. Other targets are affected normally, but you nullify and suck in the spell energy used on you. Spells that create an ongoing effect (such as acid fog) are unaffected. Second, the big one: upon successful save (and assuming the spell is low enough level), you automatically absorb the spell without further checks.
Note that the heavy improvements to Absorb Spell make Evasion and Mettle almost completely worthless, as absorbed spells have no effect on you. The only reason I decided to go ahead and add those class features was for the odd times when the Spell-Thief would be affected by spells higher level than they can absorb. As pointed out by JaronK in the thread I linked, a 7th level Spell-Thief cannot absorb spells from a 7th level wizard. Add to this the likelihood that the BBEG will be a Wizard 10, and suddenly you have a worthless Absorb Spell. For these scenarios, Evasion/Mettle are simply fallbacks.

Steal Spell Resistance: gained earlier (10th); gains improvements as listed on the table. These also change how much SR you gain from the effect 10+class level at 15th level, and 15+class level at 20th. The SR is still capped by the amount the target originally possessed.

What's New: I'm always up for better names for my abilities!

Diligent Magician: At level 4, add charisma to spellcraft and psicraft checks

Diligent Learner: at the indicated levels, the spell-thief gains a number of extra skill points equal to their charisma bonus. Note that enhancement bonuses and other non-permanent additions to charisma are not added.
Since Charisma represents force of personality, I thought it wouldn't be much of a stretch to have it represent determination. In this vein, we have the 2 Diligence features. But moreover, this was my attempt to keep Spell-Thief a cha-based skill monkey instead of just changing casting/class features to be keyed off of INT.

Evasion and Mettle at the indicated levels are pretty standard fare.

Greater Arcane Sight: at level 16, your Arcane Sight ability improves. You can choose to use the Greater version instead.

Spellsink: At 14th level, a Spell-thief may, as an immediate action, forcibly change the target of a hostile spell (one originating from an enemy and targeting the spell-thief's allies) to themselves. You must be within range of the spell being cast, and you must have line of sight and line of effect to the opposing caster (even if the same isn't true for the caster). The new target of the spell is you. If the spell is an area effect, it is centered on you. If it affects multiple targets with a requirement of being within a certain range of each other (such as chain lightning or slow), you must be one of those targets feasibly breaking the original chain of who was intended to be affected. If you possess the ability to cast an absorbed spell as an immediate action, you may do so as part of the immediate action used to sink it.

Spellthief Forte: Starting at 6th level and every 4 levels thereafter, choose a special ability from the following list. Some abilities have requirements and many of them become more potent after your spell-thief level reaches 10.

Mind Thief: this ability functions like the Psythief (CS) feat with the following exceptions: When you successfully steal power points from a psychic creature, you also gain the knowledge of one power (maximum level = max level of spell you can steal) which you can manifest any time within the next hour. You must have a Charisma equal to 10+power level in order to manifest it. Since you are not a proficient psychic, you also must have a number of ranks in Psicraft equal to the power points required. Alternatively, you may use the power points to fuel the casting of a spell you know. In order to do this, you spend a number of power points equal to twice the spell's level. Your other class features, such as steal spell-like ability and spellgrace, also work against their psionic equivalents. As normal for the Psythief feat, you gain Knowledge (Psionics) and Psicraft as Spell-thief class skills.

Mage-Slayer: as the feat (CArc), except you take no penalty to your caster level. If your Spell-thief class level is 10 or higher, this ability also foils spell-like abilities (the action is lost but use of the ability is not considered to be used). Special: if you possess the Supernatural Instincts (FC2) feat and are Spell-thief 10 or higher, you may also foil supernatural abilities in the same manner as spell-like abilities.

Pierce Magic: as the feat Pierce Magical Concealment (CArc), except you take no penalty to your caster level. If your Spell-thief class level is over 10, you also gain the benefit of Pierce Magical Protection (also with no penalty to caster level). Requires: Mage-Slayer feat or Mage-Slayer Spellthief Forte.

Supernatural Lock: following the rules for Steal spell-like ability, you may cut off a target from the use of a single supernatural ability for one minute. Unlike Steal spell-like ability, you do not gain the ability to use the locked effect. In the instance of a binder, the bound vestige determines the level of the effect. You may add your Spellgrace benefits to saves against supernatural abilities. Requires: Steal spell resistance

Arcane Repossession Specialist: you may use stolen spell levels to apply a metamagic feat you know to a spell-thief spell you cast or another stolen spell. Each spell level required for metamagic can instead be fueled by stolen spell levels. For example, you could maximize a Magic Missile if you had previously stolen a Haste effect from a Wizard. Additionally, you may use and activate magic items as a sorcerer of your class level. For example, you could use a staff to fire a Disintegrate without need of a Use Magic Device check.

Advancing Arcana: At 10th level, choose a single 5th level sorcerer spell. You know this spell but, lacking spell slots of this level, can only cast it using stolen spell energy. At 12th level and every even level thereafter (up to 18th; see below), you may choose another sorcerer spell known with a level of up to one half your Spell-thief class level, with a minimum spell level of 5th. At 20th level, you gain an additional spell known of up to 8th level.
Even with stolen spell energy, in order to cast these spells, you must possess a Charisma of 10+spell level.

Annoyance Incarnate: Upon a successful sneak attack, you may forgo 1d6 sneak attack damage to instead steal 1d4 points of essentia. You are free to allocate this essentia normally.Additionally, you lock one of the target's soulmelds (bound or otherwise) out use. As usual, you may choose which you want to lock, or the DM will determine randomly. The stolen essentia, the essentia lost, and the soulmeld locked all last for 1 minute. Special: This ability may be used to fulfill the prerequisites for the Indigo Strike feat. If you possess said feat, you may immediately invest stolen essentia into this feat (up to its limit). When the essentia disappears, the essentia invested in this feat returns to its normal levels.

Stowaway: Whenever another creature within 60 feet of you uses an ability in which they teleport themselves by any means (as long as the starting and ending points are on the same plane), you may choose to join them on their journey as an immediate action. You appear in the same point as you were before, relative to them. If you land in an illegal square, you get shunted to the nearest legal square. If the target is unwilling, you must succeed on an opposed caster level check.


If you would like a simpler Spell-Thief, then simply ignore all Spellthief Fortes. At those levels, just grant them Mage-Slayer, then Pierce Magical Concealment, then Pierce Magical Protection, then Supernatural Instincts. If you don't want any of those, just replace them with any 4 Bonus feats you feel fit the class well. Regardless, I'd handwave the caster level penalty.

--

Tell me what you think, folks.

Pechvarry
2010-09-27, 06:07 PM
To any readers (all both of you...), I've made some changes.

//Changes:
*Spellsink changed to only affect hostile spells.
*Spellthief forte/Arcane Repossession has a lot of holes and is way better than most fortes. Since I didn't give the class UMD (oops, they already have UMD), I'm replacing the higher level casting with the ability to use magic items of a sorcerer of their level.
*High level spells known for absorb-casting implemented as its own forte.
//

I could use a lot of logic-poking at Supernatural Lock and Annoyance Incarnate.

Additional ideas bouncing around:

*I'd like to create a forte for putting the friendly use of spellsink back in (probably with a check of some sort). I deemed it overpowered to automatically steal a non-touch range buff spell every round w/out even a check. But I'd like it to make its way back eventually.

*I was intending to put in an ability to allow them to use an immediate action to 5' closer to a caster casting, thus getting an AoO or triggering Mage-Slayer. But Spellsink ended up taking its spot. I'd like to see something like this come back in, though. I want enemy casters to create opportunities for the Spell-Thief to punish them.

*Yes, I neglected Sneak Attack progression. I think most people think Spell-thieves should do more damage. I'm not entirely sold on it. I'm not saying I'm against it, but upping their damage is only a fall back plan at this point. I'd rather emphasize more their ability to turn an opponent's force against them. If anyone has ideas about that, shoot.

One thing I did consider: at 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter, the Spell-thief gains a class feature called Ambush + xd6, with x starting at 1 and going up every 4th level. Ambush's main function is granting faux sneak attack dice. You could use these virtual dice for class feature SA trade-ins, as well as fueling Ambush feats. A secondary function of the class feature would mostly be for flavor: add the Ambush value to your SA dice during the first round of any combat.

Is this something people would be interested in? How about cake? Anyone up for some cake?

DragoonWraith
2010-09-27, 06:22 PM
It looks OK, but I don't think you go far enough with stealing from other subsystems. You might consider incorporating some of what I did with the All-Thief (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=All-Thief) into the base class, or use the Feats.

Pechvarry
2010-11-14, 02:14 AM
Since this was such a smashing hit before, I decided to look at it again!

Looking it over, I decided that if players want to focus more on stealing from other systems, I don't need to work in DragoonWraith's abilities -- the players can simply head into his wonderful prestige class!

So, I made a few patch-ups (made a new Forte) and I included the tiny segment at the end about ditching the fortes. I know it's hard to get into a class with menu abilities like that, since it just adds more reading than there is class (since you won't end up with all of the class features).

So after something like 7 weeks, the floor is now open if anyone is at all interested in tap dancing on it.

ErrantX
2010-11-14, 03:54 AM
I don't have much to add to the conversation save that I like what you've done with the class. :smallbiggrin:

-X

Zaraithe
2010-12-14, 11:37 AM
I'm playing a spellthief in a campaign currently, and I'm asking the DM if I can use this; this appears really solid! It takes a lot of the annoying things out of playing spellthief and makes the class play like (I feel) it should be played!

Pechvarry
2010-12-15, 12:17 AM
Best of luck!

There is a flaw to this remake I regret, though: your Spellthief Fortes are divided between either making you an awesomer spell-thief (those which increase your casting and anti-caster potential) and those that make you better at handling people using other systems (such as Magic of Incarnum users, etc). I still think it's really solid and enjoyable to play, though.

Tell me how it goes. If your DM rejects it on grounds of balance, I wouldn't mind his insight either.

Zaraithe
2011-01-05, 12:08 PM
He seems to love the class. He did scowl a little bit when I mentioned my plan to take Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and Leadership in order to combine with Arcane Repossession Specialist for pseudo-DMM shenaniganry, but he didn't outright say I *couldn't* do it... :P

I probably won't anyway (too feat intensive), but yeah, I thought it was neat.

Pechvarry
2011-01-05, 12:22 PM
I scowled, and I don't even have to play with you. :P

Worth noting that if you go that path, your cohort could very well be a DMM:Persist cleric himself, negating the need to take the feats yourself.

Chambers
2011-01-05, 12:37 PM
I love the spellthief but have lamented it's crunch ever since it came out. Another idea is to take some abilities from the Spellfire Channeler.

[6th level Spellthief]
Drain Charged Item (Sp): As a standard action a spellthief can drain a single charge from a touched charged item (including single-use items such as potions and scrolls), converting the energy into a number of stolen spell levels equal to the spell level of the spell stored in the item. A fully drained item has no magical properites (a potion becomes water, a scroll becomes blank paper). Only one feature of a multiple-use charged item (such as a scroll with several spells) can be drained per round. A creature gets to make a Will save (DC 10 +1/2 spellthief level +Charisma modifier) to prevent one of its held or carried items from being drained.

[12th level Spellthief]
Drain Permanent Item (Sp): The spellthief can drain power from permanent magic items by touch as a standard action. An atem that creates spell effects (such as boots of speed) loses that function for 24 hours and the spellthief gains a number of stolen spell levels equal to half the caster level of the item. A creature gets to make a Will save (Dc 10 +1/2 spellthief level +Charisma modifier) to prevent one of its held or carried items from being drained. An item with all its permanent abilities drained for the day is still a magic item (for purposes of making saving throws when damaged, and so on).

---

Any spell levels gained from these abilities must be used within 1 hour or the extra spell energy fades harmlessly away, as the Steal Spell class feature.

Zaraithe
2011-01-05, 01:23 PM
I scowled, and I don't even have to play with you. :P

Worth noting that if you go that path, your cohort could very well be a DMM:Persist cleric himself, negating the need to take the feats yourself.

It doesn't really negate it; as far as I can tell, DMM applies the metamagic feat spontaneously as the spell is cast, it doesn't prepare the spell with the metamagic. So a spellthief trying to steal a Persistent Divine Power would only get the Divine Power with no Persistent... :/

I don't feel too bad about it though, because the rest of the party is a Raptoran swift hunter who flies everywhere, A wizard who blasts things good, a paladin who does a crapload of damage (with their horse too), because of the bard who gives every ally +5d6 sonic damage on every attack they make combined with the Malconvoker who summons 3-4 monsters, I'm not worried about breaking anything. :P

Pechvarry
2011-01-05, 02:39 PM
I was thinking the cleric cohort persisting buffs on everyone else -- I thought you couldn't persist Personal range spells anyway.

@Chambers: The class is pretty loaded, so I'd be very hesitant to add them in addition to everything else. This means they would probably make remarkably good Spellthief Fortes. Changes I'm thinking I'd make to what you've written: The first requires Use Magic Device (6 ranks), the second requires already having the first. From there, I would remove altogether the ability to do this on items not in your possession.

Um... at least, I was going to say I would. I was thinking it'd be more limiting as well as cooler if it encouraged spellthieves to run around, sleight of hand'ing opponents' gear and draining it. BUT they don't even have sleight of hand as a class skill!

I think I may have to revisit their skill list.