View Full Version : Question about lance charging minotaur (3.5)

Gabe the Bard

2010-09-26, 09:19 PM

One of the players in my D&D group recently played a 13th-level minotaur cavalier for a single session. He rolled a critical hit on a lance charge (it wasn't a deadly charge because he only had 1 level of cavalier), and he said it did 882 points of damage.

I'm wondering if this damage is possible with a single attack. I'm not really sure how he came up with that number, but he might have added the multipliers incorrectly. Here's a partial breakdown of his build:

Minotaur (6 hit dice), 6th-level fighter, 1st-level cavalier, +2 level adjustment

36 Strength (+12 bonus)

+5 Lance

Spirited charge

Power attack

Weapon specialization (Lance)

Leap attack

Mount: Bulette (landshark)

Keld Denar

2010-09-26, 09:25 PM

First of all, you can't Leap Attack on a mount, since its the mount that is leaping, not you. That cuts things down a bit.

It'll take a bit to look into the rest. Are minotaur HD considered giant? Or monstrous humanoid? Giant HD are only 3/4 BAB, but monstrous humanoid HD are 1/1 BAB.

The Dark Fiddler

2010-09-26, 09:36 PM

It'll take a bit to look into the rest. Are minotaur HD considered giant? Or monstrous humanoid? Giant HD are only 3/4 BAB, but monstrous humanoid HD are 1/1 BAB.

Monstrous humanoid.

Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if it were possible. Ubercharger shenanigans are amusing.

Gabe the Bard

2010-09-26, 09:50 PM

Assuming that he was somehow able to leap attack, is 800+ damage even possible on a single hit? I don't recall how he came up with the number, but I think he multiply the damage by 9 (x3 for the lance and x3 for spirited charge).

Siosilvar

2010-09-26, 09:56 PM

One of the players in my D&D group recently played a 13th-level minotaur cavalier for a single session. He rolled a critical hit on a lance charge (it wasn't a deadly charge because he only had 1 level of cavalier), and he said it did 882 points of damage.

I'm wondering if this damage is possible with a single attack. I'm not really sure how he came up with that number, but he might have added the multipliers incorrectly. Here's a partial breakdown of his build:

Minotaur (6 hit dice), 6th-level fighter, 1st-level cavalier, +2 level adjustment

36 Strength (+12 bonus)

+5 Lance

Spirited charge

Power attack

Weapon specialization (Lance)

Leap attack

Mount: Bulette (landshark)

2d6+27 base

+78 Power Attack (+13 * 2 (two-handed) * 3 (leap attack))

2d6+105 total

+100% (spirited charge)

+100% (lance used in a charge)

+200% (lance critical hit)

= 10d6+525 damage [average 560]

If Cavalier gives some bonus, that could easily make 800.

As mentioned earlier, Leap Attack while gaining mounted charge bonuses is difficult. That would cut 260 points of damage out - still a respectable 300 total.

Runestar

2010-09-27, 01:52 AM

Of course, if you counted as your own mount (say a centaur), then it should stack. Imagine combining leap attack with spirited charge...:smallcool:

VirOath

2010-09-27, 02:55 AM

2d6+27 base

+78 Power Attack (+13 * 2 (two-handed) * 3 (leap attack))

2d6+105 total

+100% (spirited charge)

+100% (lance used in a charge)

+200% (lance critical hit)

= 10d6+525 damage [average 560]

If Cavalier gives some bonus, that could easily make 800.

As mentioned earlier, Leap Attack while gaining mounted charge bonuses is difficult. That would cut 260 points of damage out - still a respectable 300 total.

Add in another 100%, Spirited Charge deals triple damage with a lance. And Cavalier gives +1 to hit and damage with a Lance.

grimbold

2010-09-27, 11:46 AM

20th level warblades can do more damge but it requires a succession of crits, special builds and stances but i calculated with one attack with just the right super expensive build you can do upwards of 1k damage

Greenish

2010-09-27, 11:54 AM

20th level warblades can do more damge but it requires a succession of crits, special builds and stances but i calculated with one attack with just the right super expensive build you can do upwards of 1k damageAt level 20, plenty of builds can go above 1k damage per hit.

Eldariel

2010-09-27, 12:14 PM

At level 20, plenty of builds can go above 1k damage per hit.

If you can't deal 4k damage a turn on level 10, you aren't trying. Point being, with a mount and all the charge multipliers, you can add stuff like Heedless Charge, Valorous Lance, Righteous Fury, Battle Jump, mounted charge multipliers... And honestly, that's only the first attack. On a full pounce attack you can easily break 10000 if you try to. Hell, you can get much, much more if you really care.

Of course, that's all relatively pointless in a normal game.

big teej

2010-09-27, 03:01 PM

until this thread, I never truly understood 'ubercharger' builds......

I have learned something this day...

something that will require a will save from now on whenever I create a character to avoid building.....

my apologies for having nothing constructive to add.

Gabe the Bard

2010-09-27, 09:30 PM

big teej: I am enlightened by your enthusiasm.

Quietus

2010-09-27, 09:37 PM

Sounds to me like it's probable that he figured out his damage with all the charge-multipliers added on, THEN criticaled that for x3. What's his usual charge damage? I assume being built like that, he's doing it often.

And as pointed out, generally you can't use both leap attack *and* mounted charging at the same time.

herrhauptmann

2010-09-27, 09:46 PM

Of course, if you counted as your own mount (say a centaur), then it should stack. Imagine combining leap attack with spirited charge...:smallcool:

Screw the centaur! Use a bariaur.

Only +1 LA. No racial hit dice (manual of planes, get the update). Downside, medium size and no real racial stat adjustments. I think the lack of RHD makes it worth it though.

Gabe the Bard

2010-09-27, 11:34 PM

We have no idea what his usual charge damage would have been, because he only played the minotaur for a single session. He was basically trying to outdo our barbarian, who does more damage than the rest of the party combined. I'm pretty sure his multiplication was wrong, but I was also wondering if there was something else in his build that was off, and based on the comments it seems that the biggest problem was the leap attack+spirited charge combo.

herrhauptmann

2010-09-27, 11:40 PM

I'm pretty sure he added his multipliers wrong too. In D&D math, doubling a double is actually a triple. So tripling a triple should be a quintuple.

lsfreak

2010-09-27, 11:44 PM

I'm pretty sure he added his multipliers wrong too. In D&D math, doubling a double is actually a triple. So tripling a triple should be a quintuple.

It might be late and I'm just not quite understanding you, but just to clarify:

You have 100% damage as base.

Doubling would add another 100%.

Tripling would add 200% of base.

Tripling again would add another 200% of base.

So in that example (double/triple/triple, which by normal maths would be 18x the base), you deal 600% base damage, or 6x. In D&D, 'multiplication' is actually 'adding the base damage multiple times.'

herrhauptmann

2010-09-27, 11:55 PM

Hey, I could be wrong Isfreak, I don't normally bother with mounted characters. But that x9 seems a little odd.

but I think he multiply the damage by 9 (x3 for the lance and x3 for spirited charge).

-Gabe

lsfreak

2010-09-28, 01:09 AM

Hey, I could be wrong Isfreak, I don't normally bother with mounted characters. But that x9 seems a little odd.

In that instance, I believe it should be 5x normal. No matter what, 9x isn't right.

100% base damage

+200% for tripling

+200% for tripling again

=500% base damage, or 5x whatever's rolled.

Keld Denar

2010-09-28, 01:11 AM

you deal 600% base damage, or 6x.

Mostly accurate analysis, except for one thing. A 600% INCREASE in damage is actually 7 times as much damage. A 100% increase is a doubling, because a 0% increase means you are already dealing full damage (100%). Therefore if you are INCREASING damage by 100%, you are dealing twice the base damage. Same with higher percentages. If you have a 600% INCREASE of a 100% base damage, its 700% of the base, or 7 times.

The easiest way to do D&D math with mulipliers is that the first muliplier is full value, and all other multipliers are added at one less. So 2x + 2x + 3x + 4x is 2+1+2+3=8x base damage. 3x + 3x + 3x is actually 3+2+2=7x base damage.

Percents are wierd like that, but yea, just something to remember. :smallcool:

EDIT: you totally ninja edited for clarity....grrrr.

Coidzor

2010-09-28, 01:44 AM

Is ok, was a good post too, Keld.

Keld Denar

2010-09-28, 01:47 AM

OMG, that was the post I hit Titan in too! Woot!

Yea...nothing else to see here.

Peregrine

2010-09-28, 02:20 AM

I concur that in D&D maths, tripling damage and tripling it again should make it ×5, not ×9.

While Keld's method of calculation is the easiest way to do it, it doesn't really explain the rationale. Perhaps algebra will make it clear? (Because everything's better with algebra.)

D&D analyses a multiplier like "double damage d" as being d + d. Triple is d + 2d. Thus, the damage increase is +d or +2d respectively.

Stacking several multipliers together is an algebraic sum of these increases -- you don't count the original d more than once. So triple (+2d) and triple again (+2d) is quintuple (+4d).

And that gives us... or rather that gives this minotaur...

Okay, 18 Str, +8 Str minotaur, +1 Str from levels, +6 Str item, and let's say, ooh, a +3 manual of gainful exercise by 15th level, gives Str 36. Yup, that matches what you tell us the player had. Note that this is a +13 bonus, though, not +12.

I don't know where Cavalier is from and can't be bothered looking it up, so I'll trust VirOath on the +1 damage, and assume it gives full BAB.

So a Large lance with a +19 two-handed Str bonus, Weapon Specialization's +2, Cavalier's +1, and a +5 enhancement gives us 2d6+27 base damage.

Maximum Power Attack is +13, ×3 for being a Leap Attack with a two-handed weapon.

On a charge, we stack on ×2 lance, ×2 spirited charge, and ×3 critical. That gives a ×5 multiplier to the base damage and ×7 to the Power Attack damage. (We'll assume for a moment that there's some way to make Leap Attack and Spirited Charge work together.)

In other words, 10d6+135, Power Attack +91. Average damage is 261 (min. 236, max. 286).

Ho hum? :smalltongue:

Runeclaw

2010-09-28, 07:11 PM

Maximum Power Attack is +13, ×3 for being a Leap Attack with a two-handed weapon.

On a charge, we stack on ×2 lance, ×2 spirited charge, and ×3 critical. That gives a ×5 multiplier to the base damage and ×7 to the Power Attack damage.

Is that how Power Attack works with multipliers? I understand the usual rule of D&D multipliers, but I somehow hadn't thought of it like that before. I guess because I usually take the Power Attack damage and add it to the base damage before multiplying it for a Crit or whatever, I think I've regarded the multiplying of a PA for Two-Handed/Leap Attack as a seperate operation from the multiplying for a Critical/Charge/etc that effects the damage as a whole.

To keep it simple, let's say I'm doing X base damage (from my weapon's actual damage die plus static bonuses) and I've power attacked for Y with a two handed weapon. And I've critted.

I'd have thought it was: (X+2Y)*2 doing the power attack multiplication and crit multiplication completely separately. But you're saying that, using the D&D multiplication rules, it should have been 2X+3Y?

Fax Celestis

2010-09-28, 07:14 PM

Assuming that he was somehow able to leap attack, is 800+ damage even possible on a single hit? I don't recall how he came up with the number, but I think he multiply the damage by 9 (x3 for the lance and x3 for spirited charge).

That is the problem. Spirited Charge lance is x3 total, x5 on a crit.

It is easier to think of multipliers as added percentages.

You deal +100% damage if charging with a lance. Spirited charge makes this +200%. If you crit, it's another +200%. So it should be +500% total, not +900%.

Power Attack should follow the same function, really.

Peregrine

2010-09-28, 10:54 PM

I'd have thought it was: (X+2Y)*2 doing the power attack multiplication and crit multiplication completely separately. But you're saying that, using the D&D multiplication rules, it should have been 2X+3Y?

I'm pretty sure it is, yeah. Because Power Attack has its own set of multipliers (two-handed/Leap Attack), you need to remember that it doesn't get the full multiplication from the stuff (crit/lance/Spirited Charge) that affects all the damage.

At least, that's what the D&D rules suggest to me. Doesn't mean I'm right, though... your way would certainly save on the calculations! ("You know, he'd be a pretty good warrior if he had a better head for numbers." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html))

Runeclaw

2010-09-29, 07:03 PM

I kind of think the Power Attack multiplier (for Two Handed or Leap Attack or the like) is a multiplier on the "bonus damage provided by power attack".

The critical/charge multipliers are multipliers on your "total damage".

So it seems to me that they wouldn't run afoul of the stacking multipliers rule. But I guess you could read it either way. Weird.

Siosilvar

2010-09-29, 07:10 PM

Add in another 100%, Spirited Charge deals triple damage with a lance. And Cavalier gives +1 to hit and damage with a Lance.

Uh, no. Lances double mounted charge damage. Spirited Charge doubles mounted charge damage. The "(triple with a lance)" is a reminder of D&D's multiplication rules.

[hr]For everyone else: The usual interpretation is that PA has its own multiplication (+100% for two-handed, then x3 from Leap Attack - specifically multiplying the two-handed bonus), then is multiplied by total damage multipliers (all of which are additive).

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