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NineThePuma
2010-09-28, 10:15 PM
I'm considering a Sneak Attacking TWF- type for a gestalt game. I currently have a Rogue//Fighter set up with straight core stuff. No variants added. I just need help with feats. I plan to be double wielding Kukri, so enchantments on that would be helpful as well.

Aside from Keen and Craven, thoughts? (also: this is gonna be a Kobold, because I like lizards) (Further note: I'd prefer to avoid being ridiculously cheesy. Just a nice simple build that can kick ass and take names)

Mongoose87
2010-09-28, 10:57 PM
Is it core-only, for classes? A Rogue/Warblade focusing on Tiger Claw would be amazing.

ffone
2010-09-28, 11:14 PM
A current PC if mine is a similar non-gestalt build; Rogue-4 Swashbuckler-X using a feat (Daring Outlaw) to stack sneak attack (and some defensive swash features). She also uses TWF, and kukris with Imp. Crit. - I assume you're using Telling Blow and that's the motivation for keen kukris.

Your DM might let you get 'double' sneak attack progression by going gestalt rogue // swash with the feat. If not, consider taking a full BAB sneak attack prestige class like Invisible Blade, Ronin, Justicar, Nighsong Infiltrator, etc. on the Swash side. Unless the DM nixes that sort of thing as well.

You could even mix in ninja in a way that maintains full BAB if you order the levels right, like rogue-3 fighter-X // swash-3 ninja-X, if your DM lets you double up sneak attack with sudden strike but not sneak attack on both sides. With ninja you'll need a reliable method of dex-Denying enemies, like Invisible Blade's free action feints, a ring of blinking, etc. Most people seem to consider ninja weak, but it's a way of getting round any 'same ability on both sides doesn't stack, but similar ones do' the DM might use for gestalt.

Staggering Strike is a great feat, sneak attacks stagger foes with failed Fort (DC = damage dealt; with Craven they'll usually fail at higher levels except on natural 20s). The allies who flank with you will appreciate not being full-attacked by enemies.

One Achilles' heel of a TWF sneak attacker is that you need to full attack to TWF, but rogues often need to move to flank or hide. You want some way to move + full attack and-or charge + full attack.

As cheesy as it is, a one level dip in that lion totem barbarian for Pounce is almost a necessity for TWFers. Or, if you're high level and rich, get items that let you swift action move some number of times per day (MiC has several such items, with rather bizarre variation in their pricing).

Also, being able to throw helps you get in a full attack against flat-footed foes if you beat their initiative (which is likely as a Dexy rogue). There is Quick Draw, or the cheap 'least return crystals' (basically 300 gp for quick draw on one weapon), or maybe even shuriken even though you're not proficient (ninja helps in this way too). My character puts the crystals on her 'main' kukris, and holds two throwing weapons in between fights.

Another Achilles' heel is uncrittable foes. Look up Penetrating Strike ACF, or if you're rich enough Deathstrike Bracers, perhaps several copies.

Swashbuckler has a few higher-level class features with good rogue and Telling Blow synergy: add'l +2 when flanking, and Str and Con damage on crits.

If you're low level or poor or book-restricted and don't have the magic items, dips, etc. to help out with the TWF move/charge issue, consider being one-handed, at least until higher levels. Or, if you abandon the Telling Blow 'wide threat range' route, Snap Kick is a feat which is like TWF but can be used with single 'standard action attacks', AoOs, anything. There is a recent thread here debating these.

NineThePuma
2010-09-28, 11:15 PM
It isn't core only, BUT, my ToB got jacked by a relative and he's stubbornly insisting he doesn't have it. Never mind me /knowing/ he took it from my house.

A thought: Rogue/Swashbuckler is really shiny with Daring Outlaw, right? (AND Daring Outlaw can be taken at 3rd level, with my first level of Swash... I think)

Edit: I want fighter for the feats... And the gestalt rules are against double advancement.

ffone
2010-09-28, 11:20 PM
It isn't core only, BUT, my ToB got jacked by a relative and he's stubbornly insisting he doesn't have it. Never mind me /knowing/ he took it from my house.

A thought: Rogue/Swashbuckler is really shiny with Daring Outlaw, right? (AND Daring Outlaw can be taken at 3rd level, with my first level of Swash... I think)

Yes, IIRC Daring Outlaw requires rogue-1 (sneak attack, but not '2d6' or anything) and swash-2 (for 'grace'). And even if you don't make it 'til 6th, Craven might actually be slightly better. Whichever you don't take at 3rd, take at 6th.

I'm currently having a lot of fun with the build. The higher BAB (only 1 behind full) is very very good for a TWFer - the higher your BAB, the lower the % decrease in hit rate, and the way the math works out you need a high hit % for TWF to pay for itself.

Mongoose87
2010-09-28, 11:27 PM
It isn't core only, BUT, my ToB got jacked by a relative and he's stubbornly insisting he doesn't have it. Never mind me /knowing/ he took it from my house.

Sound like you need to do some rogue-ing of your own.

dgnslyr
2010-09-28, 11:32 PM
Well, two good paths for TWF are Sneak Attack and Skirmish. Why not stack both? A Swift Hunter Scout/Ranger//Daring Outlaw Rogue/Swashbuckler is basically a quadruple semi-gestalt. Get a flanking buddy (Thicket of Blades stance could help here), the item that lets you take 10' steps (Training Dummy of the Master?), and you'll be dealing precision damage up the wazoo. Of course, this would be a terrible idea against anatomy-less creatures, so keep that in mind.

Another possibility is Warblade, for full BAB, d12 hit dice, a few extra feats, INT synergy with Swashbuckler, and access to Tiger Claw maneuvers. Even if you don't have your ToB, both warblade and all the maneuvers are available here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2), on the WotC website.

NineThePuma
2010-09-28, 11:32 PM
I'm very likely to steal somethin valuable of his.

What I'm looking at (crystal keep) says Daring Outlaw needs 2d6 sneak attack. That shoves Rogue to level 3. Which sounds painful for half a second, but that just means Craven early.

What're Craven's rough stats?

Also, is there any TWF traps I should avoid?

NineThePuma
2010-09-28, 11:35 PM
Another possibility is Warblade, for full BAB, d12 hit dice, a few extra feats, INT synergy with Swashbuckler, and access to Tiger Claw maneuvers. Even if you don't have your ToB, both warblade and all the maneuvers are available here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2), on the WotC website.

That doesn't give me the "you gain new maneuver levels at initiator level X" info, which is all I need.

Mongoose87
2010-09-28, 11:36 PM
That doesn't give me the "you gain new maneuver levels at initiator level X" info, which is all I need.

IL/2, round up.

NineThePuma
2010-09-28, 11:43 PM
So I'd get level 9 at 17 0.o

... That makes Warblade somewhat appealing, I'll admit.

(Also: This is gestalt. I have Fighter levels for survivability.)

(Rogue/Swashbuckler//Fighter 2/Warblade X is my current "potential build")

dgnslyr
2010-09-28, 11:47 PM
So I'd get level 9 at 17 0.o

... That makes Warblade somewhat appealing, I'll admit.

(Also: This is gestalt. I have Fighter levels for survivability.)

(Rogue/Swashbuckler//Fighter 2/Warblade X is my current "potential build")

That sounds pretty solid. It's hard to go wrong with warblade. I take it the Fighter 2 is for feats, at the cost of 1 IL? What feats are you taking, anyway?

NineThePuma
2010-09-28, 11:55 PM
I was going to use Fighter to fuel my TWF and grab things like the Weapon Focus tree. I know of this neat little ToB mutli-classing feat for Warblade/Fighter that I may snatch up in order to get Fighter as full initiator levels. Yay homebrew.

I plan to do the same now, roughly, without using flaws. Why digit ask? =O

JaxGaret
2010-09-29, 12:04 AM
Sneak Attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter)//Swordsage

Ultimate sneak attacking machine.

NineThePuma
2010-09-29, 12:07 AM
... Except I don't particularly like swordsage and want TWFing. XP

HunterOfJello
2010-09-29, 12:08 AM
Actually, all information about the Warblade is free online.

Warblade Information (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2)

Maneuver Cards for All Maneuvers (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a)

~

I'd also go with a class like Factotum or Artificer instead of a rogue.

NineThePuma
2010-09-29, 12:23 AM
I'm a firm believer in KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) and hate playing a spellcaster. My base build at the start of this topic was Fighter//Rogue; it had solid Sneak Attack and enough feats to fuel TWF and the Weapon Focus tree.

It has now picked up some Swashbuckler and Warblade. I'd like to optimize feat selection (I have TWF with Weapon Finesse for 4 feats, the Weapon Focus tree (which is 6 I can take because I can't take Weapon Supremacy) plus 3 miscellanious (Craven and Daring Outlaw with a certain Fighter/Warblade feat); I'm lucky there's an alternate feat claiming in place. This gives me 2 more feats, plus 2 from Fighter levels, plus 3 (I think) from Warblade.

All told, I have a lot of Int Synergy and Dex needs. ... Is there a feat for Dex to damage instead of strength?

Mongoose87
2010-09-29, 12:31 AM
There is such a feat, but it requires that you be in a Shadow Hand stance.

dgnslyr
2010-09-29, 12:33 AM
I'm a firm believer in KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) and hate playing a spellcaster. My base build at the start of this topic was Fighter//Rogue; it had solid Sneak Attack and enough feats to fuel TWF and the Weapon Focus tree.

It has now picked up some Swashbuckler and Warblade. I'd like to optimize feat selection (I have TWF with Weapon Finesse for 4 feats, the Weapon Focus tree (which is 6 I can take because I can't take Weapon Supremacy) plus 3 miscellanious (Craven and Daring Outlaw with a certain Fighter/Warblade feat); I'm lucky there's an alternate feat claiming in place. This gives me 2 more feats, plus 2 from Fighter levels, plus 3 (I think) from Warblade.

All told, I have a lot of Int Synergy and Dex needs. ... Is there a feat for Dex to damage instead of strength?

I think Rogue/Swash//Fighter/Warblade is fine as is. I'd stay away from Weapon Focus, because the rewards are generally underwhelming.

If you take Shadow Blade, you can use DEX-to-damage with Shadow Hand preferred weapons, while in a Shadow Hand stance, such as Island of Blades a level 1 stance, which makes any enemy with you and an ally adjacent be flanked, good for more Sneak Attacks.
You can dip into Swordsage for it, or take Martial Study/Martial Stance for it. Also a Shadow Hand Stance is Assassin's stance, which gives +2d6 sneak attack, available at IL 5. Shadow Hand preferred weapons are dagger, shortsword, spike chain, and sai, so dual shortswords it is.

Improved Initiative is ALWAYS an awesome feat. Otherwise, burn your extras on Martial Study.

NineThePuma
2010-09-29, 12:49 AM
(A clarifier: My reference to KISS is intended to be a statement of how much I despise overcomplicated builds. It is not intended to be an insult. ... Unless you build a level 20 with a crap ton of level 1 classes)

... Ooh, Improved Crit (which I thought was in the Focus family) is /not/ in said family.

I can probably nab those Martial Study things. What're shadow Hand's favored weapons? Is Kukri on the list?

Hmm... I am particularly fond of the Kukri, especially with the concept of some sort of vampiric life drain attached (is there anything like that, even just on crits?) and can't help but consider that I get Int to damage as an additional modifier already.

Dyth needs to lrn2rd

dgnslyr
2010-09-29, 01:23 AM
(A clarifier: My reference to KISS is intended to be a statement of how much I despise overcomplicated builds. It is not intended to be an insult. ... Unless you build a level 20 with a crap ton of level 1 classes)

... Ooh, Improved Crit (which I thought was in the Focus family) is /not/ in said family.

I can probably nab those Martial Study things. What're shadow Hand's favored weapons? Is Kukri on the list?

Hmm... I am particularly fond of the Kukri, especially with the concept of some sort of vampiric life drain attached (is there anything like that, even just on crits?) and can't help but consider that I get Int to damage as an additional modifier already.

Dyth needs to lrn2rd

Sadly, kukri is not, so you're stuck with either shortswords or daggers, shortswords being the better option. The extra crit range is only good if you have a build built around a ton of crits, anyway.

NineThePuma
2010-09-29, 01:27 AM
True, that. Ah well. Crazy TWF-Rogue/Swashbuckler//Fighter/Warblade Kobold will be fun. I'll even dodge the Con hit by being Desert Kobold =D

In any case, thanks for the assistance.

ffone
2010-09-29, 02:04 AM
I'm very likely to steal somethin valuable of his.

What I'm looking at (crystal keep) says Daring Outlaw needs 2d6 sneak attack. That shoves Rogue to level 3. Which sounds painful for half a second, but that just means Craven early.

What're Craven's rough stats?

Also, is there any TWF traps I should avoid?

Craven basically adds your level to sneak attack damage, with a paltry downside on fear saves. It's basically a feat every sneak attacker takes.

In the L3-6 range it'll add about as much damage on the average as Daring Outlaw, so the order you take the two won't matter too much.

If you are starting at L1, rogue at L1 is probably good in the long run for 4x skill points, and being party trapfinder from the getgo, but the lack of Weapon Finesse for a level may hurt. Since a L1 rogue is fragile, maybe emphasize ranged for a level, or ask the DM if you can take Weapon Finesse and then switch it once Swash gets it as a bonus feat.

I have zero experience with Tome of Battle so I can't offer much advice on Warblade and those builds suggested here, but my general sense from the threads is that:

- ToB classes are generally 'just better' than non ToB physical attackers, so it's probably a good way to go. Especially because gestalt gives you a whole other 'side', and Rogue-Swash with Daring Outlaw is essentially a gestalt-like normal character you can use on one side.

- If you do do that on one side, I suspect Swordsage will be better than Warblade for the other, since Swordsage's 3/4ths BAB suggests to me (knowing nothing) it gets more 'other stuff'. In gestalt, the BAB is covered by the Swash on the other side. Take a full BAB class for at least 1 level on the Swordsage side to cover rgue's missing point of BAB at level 1. Also, Shadow Hand school and Assassin's stance is apparently excellent for sneak attack and I believe is Swordsage only.

- However it's entirely possible Warblade is worth fitting in somewhere, everyone seems to rave about it. Glancing at the links above, it seems like it just hoses over Fighter (like I said ,that's my impression of ToB, it just one-ups core melee; maybe Wizards really needed to sell books that year).

- If you have good Wisdom, take 'unarmed swordsage' variant. It gets Wis to AC, and loses armor proficiency...but you have that from the other side!! Also good with snap kick, melee sneak attacks when you have a ranged weapon in hand, etc.

NineThePuma
2010-09-29, 02:16 AM
I've found, in my limited experience, that Swordsage isn't really worth it. I'd much rather get stronger HD and BAB from Warblade (And Iron Heart, which is PURE AWESOME) than get Swordsage. I can afford to drop a couple feats to get my hands on some Shadow Hand stuff for Dex to damage. Worst case scenario I need end up short a single feat... Which should NOT be a problem, as I intend to mix in either a VoP variant or a flaw or two. Probably a flaw to my reflex saves.

ffone
2010-09-29, 02:28 AM
Also, is there any TWF traps I should avoid?

Some big TWF traps:

1. Never getting to use it b/c you have to move every round.

You'll likely need to move when combat starts, spending precious actions when the enemy is flat-footed and vulnerable. Consider holding throwing weapons so you can start combat with a thrown TWF volley. Even if you don't have Quick Draw, that takes care of your non-iterative attacks, which is all a (non-gestalt) daring outlaw has until L7.

Ask your DM about a whip dagger (non-core whip which isn't neutralized by enemy's armor or natural armor, except by AC as normal of course.) I believe whip is the only finessable weapon with more than 5' reach, except for the spiked chain (two-handed, and exotic with no rogue auto-proficiency like the whip). I'm not sure if it counts for 'flanking', possibly not since you don't threaten with it, but mechanically it's sort of like a reusable thrown weapon.

Later, you'll often need to move (Tumble!) into flanking positions. Rogues need mobility (small 'm') more than most, b/c of flanking, and a death of lack of finesseable reach weapons.Unless you're fighting a big enemy that takes multiple rounds for everyone to bring down (and stays where you want it), you may need to move every round.

You may also need to move to make Hide checks. Depends on terrain. Hide In Plain Sight, if you acquire it, probably jives better with one-handed.

Telling Blow can help with this; at higher levels, with two keen/improved-crit kukris. a full attack with a 30% chance of sneak attack on each attack may do more average damage than 1 guaranteed flank attack.

And the big way around this is some means of move + full attack. Since you're gestalt, one level of that barbarian variant for Pounce would be excellent (pair it with Rogue-1, to cover its missing point of BAB, like I suggested above).

Swashbuckler, at higher levels, gets a class feature to tumble over difficult terrain. Excellence synergy with Pounce.

Another key thing about *charge* and full attack is you can charge in a surprise round. So it's a way to get around the 'one attack in surprise round' thing - you're better off is the enemy is 10'+ away!!

In other situations, regular move + full attack is better - weird terrain, getting 'around' the enemy, to flank.

My TWF daring outlaw PC basically spams magic items which let you move or short-range-teleport as swift actions. They are each limited uses/day but this is a high level campaign and wealth by level is exponential. Belt of Battle, Quicksilver Bootles, Anklet of Translocation, all MiC. You could even buy multiple copies and switch out between encounters, or convince DM to let you multiply charges and cost. This approach is dependent on the sort of DM who is okay with 'Magic Items R Us' item buying.

Dipping/gestalting cleric for Travel Devotion also lets you do this a lot.

I'm sure ToB has lots of ways to get this sort of thing, it always seems to have an answer.

If you're doing a high-optimization or high-level campaign, I would say working in move/charge + full attack is the way to go and the one big thing.

2. The cost of enhancing two weapons

Not as big a deal for you as for rangers and others, since your weapons are just vehicles for sneak attack. Although a +1 keen kukri, 8K, is still a lot for low levels.

If your DM allows some weapon customization, ask about using the 'sword of subtlety' (+1, and adds +4/+4 on sneak attacks, priced like a +3 item, so I gather 'subtlety' is like a +2 property) as a kukri instead of shortsword.

If you're doing the ToB shadow hand thing, which is probably a good idea, you may need to just abandon the kukri, at which point Telling Blow may be forego-able as well. Though you still have rapier's 18-20 for main hand, I think.

3. Enemies who are immune to crits/sneak attacks, have (improved) uncanny dodge, all around vision, out of sneak attack's 30' range, any kind of concealment.

Other magic items you'll want at high levels

Deathstrike Bracers

Ring of blinking to sneak attack with almost every attack. Also nice defensive bonuses. Your own attacks will miss 20% of the time, but that's offset by 'invisible attacker' treatment (+2, dex-deny, so more likely to hit) to say nothing of sneak attack damage. RoB is standard to active but unlimited. Good to use on surprse round (if you can't pounce), or on some early round where you had to move anyway, and are only foregoing 1 attack. Or be cheesy and declare you reactive it every few rounds out of combat.

Also MiC has a rapier with swift-action blink at an effective cost of 5K per use per day.

ffone
2010-09-29, 02:32 AM
I've found, in my limited experience, that Swordsage isn't really worth it. I'd much rather get stronger HD and BAB from Warblade (And Iron Heart, which is PURE AWESOME) than get Swordsage. I can afford to drop a couple feats to get my hands on some Shadow Hand stuff for Dex to damage. Worst case scenario I need end up short a single feat... Which should NOT be a problem, as I intend to mix in either a VoP variant or a flaw or two. Probably a flaw to my reflex saves.

I was just thinking in a gestalt context where Swashbuckler covers the BAB (full) and HD (d10).

Ah yeah, the Dex to damage thing! How could I forget. Yes, get that.

(Makes ya wonder - what's the point of Str when Dex does your attack, damage, and all the other stuff Str doesn't (initiative, AC, reflex, more skills).)

But like I said, I don't know the ToB classes myself - I'm just secondhanding what I've read, that the Swordsage shadow school stuff seems to be the way to go for sneak attacking specifically. It may be you want to go each class on one side of the gestalt or something, especially if you just need a dip of Swordsage for the Dex-damage thing. I'm sure Warblade picks the pants off Swashbuckler w/o Daring Outlaw, and maybe with it, others may weigh in on this.

I'm not familiar with vow of poverty, but if you're a melee sneak attacker, at high levels you'll want some way to fly, see invisible foes, etc. Since enemy concealment negate sneak attack damage, it's much worse than the 20% of 50% miss chance it 'just' is for everyone else.

And vs flying, my girl currently has the issue that she has good ranged attack (almost-full BAB and high Dex) but does such weak damage outside 30' that it hardly matters. If your campaign allows custom items, and you're rich, ask about an item which casts Sniper's Short (Assassin-1, swift, one sneak attack with no range limit) X times per day, or a chambered wand. Maybe someone knows a better way to get unlimited / multiple-per-round ranged sneak attacks.

Greenish
2010-09-29, 02:48 AM
(Makes ya wonder - what's the point of Str when Dex does your attack, damage, and all the other stuff Str doesn't (initiative, AC, reflex, more skills).Str helps you to carry loot. :smallwink:

Oh, and you don't need to burn feats for it, and it boosts your combat maneuvers (Bull Rush, Grapple, Overrun, Trip).

[Edit]: Oh, and of course, adding your strength to ranged attacks is trivial, but getting even 1/2 dex for them requires several feats.

NineThePuma
2010-09-29, 02:54 AM
1. Yeah, that's an issue, but I'm possibly going to be able to buy my way to teleport all over the place. It shouldn't be that big a deal; if it is, I'll also be running around pretty fast and sneaking as a Kobold. I'd say that movement issues aren't too big. VoP I'm looking at is unlikely to be helpful in this regard, but if the tank draws attention I might be able to loop around (or just talk someone into casting Extended Greater Invisibility at me or something)

2. Yeah, I think I'm just going with a set of shortswords. The VoP I'm looking at grants magic to my weapons and buffs them some so it shouldn't be that bad.

3. Problems every rogue has. I'll think on how to delay them or render them less helpful.

4 (ToB) While Swashbuckler might cover weakness in a Swordsage level, it isn't worth the lost initiator level in my opinion. Of course, I'm liable to revoke that opinion if someone proves me wrong (is level 9 swordsage initiating worth a loss in Warblade?) but I like it.

5. (VoP) Flying at level 6 and enhanced at 13. Truesight. ^^ I'm pleased with that.

true_shinken
2010-09-29, 02:35 PM
Don't use VoP.

Your initial idea is pretty simple. If your party is not optimizing heavily, I'd stick to it. Rogue//Fighter can be pretty decent, specially if you can use the Hit and Run Fighter sub level from Drow of the Underdark (Dex to damage when flankind and +2 to initiative... you don't even lose teh bonus feat).
People might diss the Weapon Focus line all the time but at lower levels every +1 to hit counts. Just focus on that. TWF + Sneak Attack with the increased hit die and bab allows you to be a pretty nice melee threat. Rogue skills (specially UMD) will help you with utility.

ffone
2010-09-29, 03:14 PM
1. Yeah, that's an issue, but I'm possibly going to be able to buy my way to teleport all over the place. It shouldn't be that big a deal; if it is, I'll also be running around pretty fast and sneaking as a Kobold. I'd say that movement issues aren't too big. VoP I'm looking at is unlikely to be helpful in this regard, but if the tank draws attention I might be able to loop around (or just talk someone into casting Extended Greater Invisibility at me or something)

Kobolds are fast for small, yeah - the issue is not so much your char's speed, as when you need to move more than 5', a move action for anyone without special 'swift' items, etc.




3. Problems every rogue has. I'll think on how to delay them or render them less helpful.

Very true . Most of my advice applied to sneak attackers generally, but

- It's good to think about for any sneak attack build
- I'm trying to solicit ideas for my own character as well
- TWFers are more dependent on sneak attack than some others, because things like damage reduction really hose you if you aren't getting sneak attack damage. Since TWF is a bad, 'expensive' style without some source of per-attack bonus damage like sneak attack, making sure you can deal sneak attack damage as often as possible becomes more important.



4 (ToB) While Swashbuckler might cover weakness in a Swordsage level, it isn't worth the lost initiator level in my opinion. Of course, I'm liable to revoke that opinion if someone proves me wrong (is level 9 swordsage initiating worth a loss in Warblade?) but I like it.

Since I'm a ToB noob, I'm curious - what is it in particular that's good about Warblade for a sneak attacker? Do they have move/charge + full attack abiities?

I have no knowledge about Warblade vs Swordsage in general - it's just that, from what I've heard/read from others, Swordsage shadow school does more towards sneak attacking specifically, which is what your original request was in the context of. (Likewise, Swashbuckler levels can advance sneak attack directly with Daring Outlaw).

It might be the way to go is just dip Swordsage for Assassin's Stance and that dex-damage thing, and then take more warblade up the other side of gestalt, or something.

Two builds to compare might be

Rogue-X // Warblade-X

Swash-3 Rogue-X // Swordsage-1,2,or3 - Warblade-Y

Rogue-3or4 Swash-X // (Warblade or lion barbarian)-1 Swordsage-Y

The builds are full BAB, and high HP. Both are also full sneak attack (1 die per 2 levels, though you can get more if your DM lets you double it up on both sides in gestalt, or you use Assassin's Stance.)

So it comes down mostly to whether you want all the other rogue and warblade class features, or the swash and swordsage class features.

I suspect the latter is more sneak attack-y, and that taking 'paired' levels of both Swash and Warblade is suboptimal (since the full BAB and high HP 'overlap')

[quote]
5. (VoP) Flying at level 6 and enhanced at 13. Truesight. ^^ I'm pleased with that.

Oh, that's quite handy!

Lord Vukodlak
2010-09-29, 03:21 PM
Don't forget the druid/rogue.
I did that once, nothing like winning initiative as a Deinonychus or some other pouncing animal.

Bugbeartrap
2010-09-29, 05:24 PM
In Gestalt, most of the advantages of Daring Outlaw (higher hit die and BAB) are negated by pairing swash levels with warblade levels. He is much better off going straight rogue. Unless his intelligence bonus is through the roof, the bonus damage will be pointless against enemies he is already getting sneak attack + Dex from shadowblade+ warblades INT to dmg feature + craven on. Plus, swashbucklers insightful strike only works against enemies he can normally crit. AFB, but i dont think penetrating strike can help him there.

If he wouldnt rather go Factotum 3 for INT to EVERYTHING! he would be much better served by getting the crippling strike rogue feature earlier, or psychic rogue/assassin for mind crippling strike, or practically anything else that advances Sneak Attack besides the bland eternity that is swashbuckler.

Unless he has a super high intelligence, that is. :smalltongue:

Edit: P.S. or go straight warblade on one side, get rid of swash, and put fighter 2 on rogue side. May I inquire as to the benefit of your homebrew fighter/warblade feat? The loss of 1 IL is hardly debilitating and going straight warblade and moving fighter to the other side would net you one extra feat.

P.P.S. As a kobold you could rock out your natural attacks as well. I believe their is a feat that gets you a prehensile tail and able to weild an extra weapon. I know it sounds silly, but I included it for completeness.

ffone
2010-09-29, 05:58 PM
Yes, gestalt removes the 'need' for daring outlaw for high bab sneeak attack, so the choice comes down to a preference for warblade and rogue class features vs swash and swordsage class features.

Other thoughts:

- I don't see natural weapons on the SRD kobolds, but I've noticed on these forums a lot of things like 'Dragonwrought' for pumping kobolds. If you get natural weapons, like a pair of claws, you probably don't want TWF. Using natural weapons as secondary attacks saves you the -2 on the weapon, doesn't require feats (although Multiattack and Improved Multiattack may be worth it), doesn't require drawing and sheathing, etc.

- If you do TWF, or are unsure, MiC has Gloves of the Balanced Hand, aka TWF for 8K, which also grants Improved TWF if you already have TWF (but not Gr. TWF if you have ITWF, although you could likely convince a DM to go for that).

This is a nice way to 'try' TWF on your character in a way that's less committal (and at high levels, 8K is less precious than a feat). It's also a nice way to not have to wait three levels in between TWF and ITWF, if you're picking it up during the campaign.

- Improved Buckler Defense feat lets you use a buckler and off-hand weapon with full benefits to both. Bucklers are only +1 AC but a cheap place to put enhancements (25K for another +5, half the price of deflection or natural armor, and in effect an extra 'magic item slot'). Not sure if it works with a claw attack by RAW (but your DM might be convinceable).

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-29, 06:06 PM
Dragonwrought just change the Kobold type from Humanoid (Reptile) to Dragon, which in on itself has some benefits, mostly steeming from spells, like immunity to spells that only target humanoids, or be able to take dragon forms with low-level spells such as Alter form...the +3 mental stats from aging without penalties to phisical stats... the cheese part comes from the Loredrake archetype (see Dragons of Eberon)

To get the claw and bite attack you need this nifty web enchancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)

true_shinken
2010-09-29, 06:29 PM
Don't forget the wild shape ranger/rogue.
I did that once, nothing like winning initiative as a Deinonychus or some other pouncing animal.

Fixed that for you.

NineThePuma
2010-09-29, 08:30 PM
Warblade has this nifty +Int to damn near everything, Full BAB, d12 hit dice, maneuvers (including Tiger Claw and Iron Heart).

Swordsage has Wis, 3/4 BAB, d8(?), and crap ton of BAB.

Gestalt lets me play a Tank with Sneak Attack; the idea is to wail on the poor buggers with my twin blades and be hyper aggressive with minimal care for my safety: the durability will let me take risks most Rogues wouldn't take.

The Fighter/Warblade feat gives full initiator level for Fighter/Warblade, spreads the skill list, and expands BOTH bonus feat lists.

Dex and Int focus, mostly. I like playing smart character types.

Um... I seem to have---

Dragonwrought is horribly broken and I want to fix it myself, but cannot (yet) do that. I've got plans to though.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-29, 08:50 PM
Can you please explain why you consider dragonwrought so broken? Personally I think it isn't bad unless you are (ab)using the dragon archetypes.

NineThePuma
2010-09-29, 09:15 PM
I found the feat to be slightly overpowered. NOT the effect itself: the effect itself is fine. It's just that it could have been handled differently, and I feel that the Archtypes and such are pretty bad. The whole +3 to all mentals! Is pretty bad too.

If I had my way, Kobolds would be reworked a bit; a +2 Cha, and a certain bonus feat (I think there's this "Dragon associate" thingy that makes them faintly related to dragons) to buff them slightly, and Dragonwrought is a VoP-style 'Path' feat that turns them more dragonlike (wings, tail, etc.)

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-29, 09:22 PM
If you ever come to make dragonwrought like that please post it, it has perked up my interest

NineThePuma
2010-09-29, 09:40 PM
It's on my to do list.

dgnslyr
2010-09-29, 10:44 PM
I seem to recall a WotC article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)that gave Kobolds some neat toys, namely natural weapons.

NineThePuma
2010-09-29, 10:48 PM
Those toys don't help their lowered CR an horrible stats.

dgnslyr
2010-09-29, 10:51 PM
I'm sure there are some silly things you can do with a trio of natural weapons. Multiattack feat? I wonder if you can qualify for it by becoming Dragonwrought...

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-29, 11:01 PM
I seem to recall a WotC article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)that gave Kobolds some neat toys, namely natural weapons.
Beat you to that link :smallwink:


Those toys don't help their lowered CR an horrible stats.
They are more for Kobold PC's than npc


I'm sure there are some silly things you can do with a trio of natural weapons. Multiattack feat? I wonder if you can qualify for it by becoming Dragonwrought...
Multiattack you can take it by virtue of having multiple Natura attacks, I believe you are thinking on rapidstrike and improved rapidstrike which give pseudo itteratives with Natural weapons, and yes dragonwrought gives the Dragon type which meets the pre-requisites (the ridiculous BAB requirement OTOH)

Icewraith
2010-09-30, 02:01 AM
Emphasis on the 1 level dip in Lion Totem Barbarian. Pounce is a godsend if the teleporting doesn't work out.

Also, 1 level dip in scout + swift ambusher feat = skirmish progression on top of sneak attack progression. Skirmish gives you more damage and eventually negates the penalty to ac you take by charging all over the place with lion totem barbarian. At higher levels you'll actually gain AC when you charge someone.

Edit: prerequisite may be skirmish +1/1d6 in which case 3 levels of scout. But scout gives you a movement speed increase as well at 2nd level as well as an extra uncanny dodge, so you can trade it for something or have it stack faster. Also!

Penetrating Strike ACF from dungeonscape, if you run into things that are crit-immune but flankable (constructs and undead, I'm looking at you!) You still get half your sneak attack dice.

ffone
2010-09-30, 02:58 AM
Can you please explain why you consider dragonwrought so broken? Personally I think it isn't bad unless you are (ab)using the dragon archetypes.


+3 to all mental stats from 1 feat.

Greenish
2010-09-30, 08:24 AM
Since I'm a ToB noob, I'm curious - what is it in particular that's good about Warblade for a sneak attacker? Do they have move/charge + full attack abilities?Tiger Claw has Pouncing Strike (ie. Pounce) and Raging/Dancing Mongoose, boosts which produce extra attacks. Swordsage has access to Tiger Claw too, though.

+3 to all mental stats from 1 feat.Or, to look it in another way, you can select between, say, +1 feat and no ability mods (human), or -1 feat and good mental stats (but horrid strength and poor con). :smallamused:

ffone
2010-09-30, 12:52 PM
Tiger Claw has Pouncing Strike (ie. Pounce) and Raging/Dancing Mongoose, boosts which produce extra attacks. Swordsage has access to Tiger Claw too, though.
Or, to look it in another way, you can select between, say, +1 feat and no ability mods (human), or -1 feat and good mental stats (but horrid strength and poor con). :smallamused:

Kobolds have +2 Dex and +1 natural armor. Str is all but irrelevant for a sneak attacker; the kobold's size and Dex give it a net +2 attack, and the size and natural armor a net +2 AC (sorta makes up for the -2 Con). That's pretty nice. And all before the +3 to all mental stats.

Basically, you're saying you think kobolds are too weak as it is, i.e. worse than other LA +0 races. Given the monstrous combos with the 'natural attacks' kobold variant (the 'Fistful of d6s' and 'Rogue Handbook' threads have more on this) the board seems to disagree with you.