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View Full Version : Getting my beguiler to play nice.



BRC
2010-09-29, 02:33 PM
So I'm running a western campaign, loads of homebrew, The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly theme playing during fights, lots of fun.
Only two players, one is playing a Gunslinger (Modified Ranger), the other is playing a beguiler. And the beguiler is the problem.

We're all close friends, we're just running into a slight clash of playstyles/characters. The guy playing the beguiler is very smart and creative, and he's using the beguiler spell list as his playground. He's worked out loads of ways to trick, charm, and dazzle his way through encounters. We've done one session, with three encounters planned, a Barfight, a fight against some mook bandits, and a fight against the two bandit leaders. He managed to handle the first two without us so much as rolling initiative. And the third one I kind of put my foot down.

Now, I'm normally all for players being creative and interesting (And believe me, he was both), it's just that the result was the Gunslinger doing basically nothing for most of the adventure. I've talked with him, and he's agreed to try more cooperative strategies. However, I feel there is something else, as the DM, that I should be doing.

I'd rather not shut the beguiler down, or do Focus-switch type adventures ( where I have one encounter where the Beguiler is useless, another where the gunslinger is useless).

So, in summary, my question is this. What can I do to encourage the Beguiler to focus more on teamwork and less on bypassing encounters completely.

Kiren
2010-09-29, 02:36 PM
Easy, buff the gunslinger and the enemies.

WarKitty
2010-09-29, 02:38 PM
Don't underestimate the power of multiple types of enemies in a single encounter. Some of the enemies in a single encounter (but not all) are immune to the beguiler, or able to make their saves.

Toliudar
2010-09-29, 02:42 PM
If it's a matter of one character outshining the other, then beguilers have lots of ways to incorporate others into their work. Illusions, invisibility, haste and such could do a lot to make a gunslinger look (and be) a lot more impressive.

But if the gunslinger's player isn't interested in the con-and-misdirection of the beguiler's player's style, then there are more difficulties ahead. Getting some of the play out of town, incorporating some tracking across the desert, hunting down a wild animal, or somesuch, might make for an interesting skill challenge for the gunslinger as well.

jiriku
2010-09-29, 02:53 PM
There's an old saying, "War is the failure of politics". People normally try nonviolent methods of solving problems before resorting to violence. If the gunslinger is useless until violence breaks out, it's natural that he won't have anything to do unless the beguiler screws up.

You might try asking yourself a different question: "What can I do about the ranger?" Because it sounds like the beguiler can contribute meaningfully both in combat and out, but the ranger is only useful in combat. Ideally, both characters should be able to solve problems through both violent and nonviolent means. Then either one can use either method without leaving the other out in the cold.

WarKitty
2010-09-29, 02:56 PM
It does sound like a play-style conflict. The Beguiler wants a social intrigue campaign; the Gunslinger wants a shoot-out fighting campaign. The challenge is to keep them both happy. Maybe provide a situation where the Gunslinger has to keep minions off while the Beguiler tries to convince someone else to not join in.

Notreallyhere77
2010-09-29, 03:07 PM
The problem isn't the beguiler, really. He plays a character that solves encounters with words and spells instead of violence, which still, if you follow the DMG, grants full XP for solving the encounter. What the problem seems to be here is that the gunslinger isn't getting his spotlight time, and he shines best in combat.
If you want something for the gunslinger to do, there's always constructs, undead, and plants. They're immune to most of the things a beguiler can do. But of course that makes the beguiler look (and more importantly, feel) useless, if he never carries weapons.
A good way to set things up is to have both characters necessary for the same encounter. Have the beguiler work for a couple rounds on disabling a trap while the gunslinger defends him from a pursuing enemy, or have normal humans repairing a golem (or other construct), and let them both deal with one opponent type. And don't forget the classes that have high will saves. Try letting the party be challenged by a knight with Iron will. Maybe he can bring minions to fall for the charms and illusions, while he shrugs them off and charges the gunslinger. Or have the gunslinger pick off a horde of zombies while the beguiler has to convince the owner of a nearby house to let the party inside to safety. Are any of these viable in your campaign setting?

Dragonmuncher
2010-09-29, 03:45 PM
Hm, what else. A party member falls into a pit trap filled with some kind of swarm enemy, and the rest of the party has to balance fighting off the topside enemies and getting their friend out of the pit.

Someone with a golem bodyguard.

I assume the Gunslinger is better at ranged combat than the Beguiler? Have some kind of encounter with an important ranged component, like facing snipers, or defending a cliff/fort, or chasing after someone.

BRC
2010-09-29, 05:16 PM
If it's a matter of one character outshining the other, then beguilers have lots of ways to incorporate others into their work. Illusions, invisibility, haste and such could do a lot to make a gunslinger look (and be) a lot more impressive.

But if the gunslinger's player isn't interested in the con-and-misdirection of the beguiler's player's style, then there are more difficulties ahead. Getting some of the play out of town, incorporating some tracking across the desert, hunting down a wild animal, or somesuch, might make for an interesting skill challenge for the gunslinger as well.
Less "Uninterested" and more "Unsuited". She (The Gunslinger) isn't a bloodthirsty "Kill everything" powergamer, but the Beguiler's plans rarely leave room for a second person to lend a hand.

For example, in the adventure we played, the party was supposed to go up against three bandits. The Beguiler approaches them disguised as a friend they thought was dead, spins a story about surviving and being found by a wandering doctor, ect. I made him roll bluff checks for the whoppers he told, I gave the mooks bonuses to their spot and sense motive checks considering he was pretending to be somebody who they had seen get their throat shot out. He was quick on his feat, and a top of the line role player. In the end he managed to convince the bandits he was who he claimed to be, two of the bandits went back to sleep, and he hypnotized the sentry. They were able to capture the three minion-bandits alive without a fight.
Later, when they did get into a fight with the bandit leaders, they managed to work as a pretty good team, the Gunslinger dealt damage while the Beguiler lent support, throwing around Whelms, hitting the bad guys with Glitterdust, ect.

There's lots of good advice here which I intend to use. Encounters with things immune to his tricks for example, but those are stopgaps, I'd rather solve the problem itself rather than working around it. I don't want to throw a golem, or somebody with a massive will save, into every encounter group just to avoid the Beguiler handling the entire thing with Smoke and Mirrors. Which is a great strategy, just not one that's fun for the entire party.
I have a treatment, but I wouldn't mind a cure.

My best-case-scenario here, and I may be hoping for too much, is to put him in a different mindset. If I have something similar to the bandit camp, a few generic enemies between the party and their goals, I'd like him to think "how can we take them down", rather than "How can I get past them". Rather than split-screening between RP and combat, I'd like him to, without my intervention, come up with plans that include the gunslinger getting to shoot things.

Notreallyhere77
2010-09-29, 05:28 PM
My best-case-scenario here, and I may be hoping for too much, is to put him in a different mindset. If I have something similar to the bandit camp, a few generic enemies between the party and their goals, I'd like him to think "how can we take them down", rather than "How can I get past them". Rather than split-screening between RP and combat, I'd like him to, without my intervention, come up with plans that include the gunslinger getting to shoot things.

Ah. Sounds like you need a truly despicable villain that the PCs will take moral offense to. so much that they will want to kill him to stop his reign of slaughter/terror/theft/vandalism/jaywalking/kidnapping/etc. There are plenty of resources on creating a villain that your PCs can hate.
And make it a large enough organization that the enemies can spread out, send warning, and other wise complicate things.
Better yet, make the Law indifferent to the villain, so that the PCs have to produce evidence. The beguiler can talk his way past a few guards, but once they're caught, whether by illusion running out of duration, their presence in a restricted area, of something as mundane as scent (this is why smart NPCs have dogs), the bullets can start flying.