Further Restroom Etiquette Discussion [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Zom B

2010-09-30, 01:34 PM

Everyone knows the unwritten rules of public restroom etiquette, but some debate has sprung up between me and a Facebook friend and I'd like some Input in the Playground.

Scenario: A father, for some reason or another, has to take his little girl with him to the men's room so that she can use the restroom. She's not yet old enough to go to the girl's room by herself but old enough that the father still checks to make sure the coast is clear before taking her in the men's room. While she is washing her hands, a man walks in and, within view of the girl, proceeds to use a urinal.

Viewpoint A: This guy is a jerk. He's not being considerate of the circumstances and his actions are either very pervy or outright ignorant. He should either wait until the father and daughter are out of the room or he should use a stall.

Viewpoint B: The father should not have his daughter in there, and the father should respect that other restroom patrons should not have to wait or do something other than they wanted to do.

bluewind95

2010-09-30, 01:42 PM

Viewpoint C: The girl should be taught to look away when men are walking towards urinals.

The second man is inconsiderate, yes. But the father also shouldn't expect men to wait. So, teach the girl to look away.

Pyrian

2010-09-30, 01:44 PM

Viewpoint C: A man using a urinal in the general vicinity will not damage a little girl.

KnightDisciple

2010-09-30, 01:46 PM

Uh....Wouldn't his back be to her? Or maybe a divider or something?

Generally speaking, bathrooms at least try not to make people overly expose themselves to each other (which suits me just fine).

I mean, I'm probably more conservative than most around here might be with kid-raising, but I'm going to go with either "I'm not sure what's wrong here" or "Not enough information".:smallconfused:

Tonal Architect

2010-09-30, 01:53 PM

I suppose that, if he's so concerned, maybe he should have put the burden on himself and taken his daughter to the Ladies' room instead. Acessible restrooms would do the trick, also, since most of them have plenty of room and are meant to be used one person at a time.

Syka

2010-09-30, 01:54 PM

As mentioned above, it's unlikely she'll have an unobstructed view. I don't see that this would harm her psychologically or anything, either. She's likely to giggle, though, if she gets a glimpse. But a combination of back to them and divider (which, when I've been in mens bathrooms, all but the smallest have had), should prevent any significant flashage.

So...Guy 2 may not be the most considerate person, but neither do I think he is wrong. I don't feel the father is wrong, either.

This is why I love that the malls and stuff in my area have Women, Men, and Family restrooms. The family ones being for those with small children.

Also, consider that even if I was a dude I'd probably still use the stall. It just strikes me as weird, but I'm sure that is socialization.

Thajocoth

2010-09-30, 02:32 PM

I don't see what's inconsiderate there. The guy's just doing what it's expected that every guy will do when they walk into a restroom. In most restrooms I've seen, the guy and the girl will have their backs towards one another. The father would be near the girl, I'm sure. I doubt she'd even know what's going on.

If anyone's going to feel awkward there, it's the guy who just walked in. You don't expect a little girl to EVER be in a men's restroom.

Honestly, I'd expect the man to have brought his daughter into the ladies room. You change a diaper in the restroom of your gender, but you let the child use the restroom of their gender. There are no urinals in a women's restroom for this to even be an issue.

Haruki-kun

2010-09-30, 02:45 PM

Viewpoint B, if only because I don't really see any problem here. The girl isn't being exposed to anything.

Jack Squat

2010-09-30, 03:45 PM

I don't really see a problem with this scenario either. I mean, I suppose it'd be more considerate for him to use a stall, but it's not inconsiderate for him to use the urinal.

I'm willing to bet that at that age, even if the little girl did see anything she wouldn't know to think anything of it.

Dr.Epic

2010-09-30, 03:56 PM

Viewpoint D: Obtain a girdle of Feminity/Masculinity and proceed to escort said daughter into the women's restroom.

CynicalAvocado

2010-09-30, 05:09 PM

Viewpoint D: Obtain a girdle of Feminity/Masculinity and proceed to escort said daughter into the women's restroom.

why do your ideas never cease to amaze me?

Eldan

2010-09-30, 05:26 PM

What's so horrible about a little girl seeing a man's penis?

Coidzor

2010-09-30, 06:39 PM

^: Well, in this scenario, I find it unlikely that she'll even get that kind of eyefull.

At least, 12 gods I hope not, as that suggest that it is some really crappy urinal set up or some very lax hygiene in the act of urinating on the part of the man...

Mostly because if she could see it in such a casual circumstance, then it suggests that he regularly is inadvertently showing his bits off to the other restroom patrons. Though, as far as I can tell, as long as there's nothing else about the situation to cause trauma to a child's psyche, there's nothing especially evil or wrong about it. Definitely potentially uncomfortable for a parent because, well, parents.
Viewpoint D: Obtain a girdle of Feminity/Masculinity and proceed to escort said daughter into the women's restroom.

Of course, if you had one of those why'd you end up with a kid? :smalltongue:

Also, consider that even if I was a dude I'd probably still use the stall. It just strikes me as weird, but I'm sure that is socialization.

Unlikely because then you'd have been socialized to use both. Unless you mean you'd choose a stall in the case of small children being underfoot, especially of the female persuasion. In which case, I'd probably have to agree with you that such would be my preference. Though, a decent urinal divider or cuvature of the restroom from the sink area would be sufficient in most cases to get the child out of sight and hopefully soon out of mind.

In the case of such a scenario, I would feel awkward if I noticed the child, especially if the child was still in there when I finished. Depending upon circumstances though, it's possible not to notice anything really in one's haste and, *ahem* mono-focused mind.

fknm

2010-09-30, 06:43 PM

Lioness

2010-09-30, 06:50 PM

I wouldn't let a toddler child go into a public restroom by themselves...even if things will probably be all right, there's kidnappers, molesters, and probably problems with the child actually being able to climb up on the toilet.

As a mother with a young boy, I'd take him to the women's bathroom. We've got stalls, though.

As a father with a young girl, I'd take her to the men's bathroom. She would be using the stalls, and it's fairly unlikely that she would either catch a glimpse or realise that it's somehow taboo and/or significant.

Because she's 2-3. Seriously.

John Cribati

2010-09-30, 06:51 PM

Wait, how can someone be old enough to be out of diapers, but not old enough to go to the restroom by themselves? Maybe my family was just odd, but as far back as I can remember (about 3 years old), I went to the restroom on my own.

A Potty-trained three-year-old may still have issues with buttons/zippers. That's why if and when I have a daughter of my own, she will wear a skirt when she and I are out together.

Dr.Epic

2010-09-30, 07:07 PM

Of course, if you had one of those why'd you end up with a kid? :smalltongue:

Bother the father and mother could each have a girdle so it all works out.:smalltongue:

THAC0

2010-09-30, 07:12 PM

Honestly, I'd expect the man to have brought his daughter into the ladies room. You change a diaper in the restroom of your gender, but you let the child use the restroom of their gender. There are no urinals in a women's restroom for this to even be an issue.

Really? I always see parents with small child using the bathroom corresponding to the parental gender, not the child's gender.

Istari

2010-09-30, 07:18 PM

I think it would be a lot more awkward for a man to be in the women's room then a small girl in the men's.

RandomNPC

2010-09-30, 07:35 PM

and I thought the gender bending belt would go on the kid....

Sorry, when I read the suggestion after the item was named I instantly thought of using it on the child.... I'm twisted.

Every bathroom I've ever seen has the sinks off to the side and on the opposite wall from the toilets, except where they're pretty much in seperate rooms, due to the size of the divider.

Family restrooms are just starting to crop up around here.

Thufir

2010-09-30, 09:22 PM

Viewpoint D: Obtain a girdle of Feminity/Masculinity and proceed to escort said daughter into the women's restroom.

A tad expensive in Remove Curse spells if you have to do it regularly. Also you'd have clothing issues.

thubby

2010-09-30, 09:55 PM

nothing wrong with what anybody did here. it's just a generally uncomfortable situation across the board.
ideally, the man could have used a stall, but that's something easy to forget about.

Cleavon

2010-09-30, 10:00 PM

There is also this viewpoint, which i'll call D:

"Man A brings his Female Child into the mens room, which h as no men in it."

"Man B really has to go, and walks into the bathroom. Man B is not paying attention to the others in the restroom, and goes to the urinal to do his business. He has no reason to think that a small girl in a mens bathroom is a common thing. He could even mistake the little girl for a little boy since he probably didn't study the child on the way to the urinal"

In such a base he is completely in the right, though apologizing to the man would be considerate, though not completely necessary.

factotum

2010-10-01, 01:29 AM

See, I don't think the second man needs to apologise. He's the one that's doing what comes naturally--e.g. going to the lavvy in a men's lavatory! The little girl is the one out of place, and it's up to her father to shield her from any eyefuls she might get while in there. As far as him waiting for them to leave goes, I'm sure we've all been in a situation where the need is desperate enough that this wouldn't be practical.

Coidzor

2010-10-01, 03:28 AM

Some part of me suspects apologizing might just make a mildly unpleasantly embarrassing situation to quickly hurry out of something even worse.

Not the least of which for violating the taboo of silence.

Dr.Epic

2010-10-01, 08:09 AM

A tad expensive in Remove Curse spells if you have to do it regularly. Also you'd have clothing issues.

(a) They both take levels in cleric so they can always cast the spell.

(b) There is unisex clothing one can always wear.

Iferus

2010-10-01, 09:21 AM

Viewpoint C: A man using a urinal in the general vicinity will not damage a little girl.

That's what I feel too. THe second guy is normal. If the father thinks otherwise, he is paranoid or overprotective.

Serpentine

2010-10-01, 10:30 AM

The second guy should take slightly more care than usual to be discrete about it. Consider using a stall instead, but no big deal if not. Annnd... that's about it. Good on the dad for looking after the daughter on his own*. He could take her into the ladies' toilet, but men's is as fine.

*I found out recently that my dad got nasty stares and comments and things for being my sister's primary carer, so I'm inclined to go out of my way to congratulate single/alone-in-situation dads.

valadil

2010-10-01, 10:37 AM

If the little girl was using the restroom she was probably in a stall by herself. The dude that came in could have gone to the urinal without knowing she was in there at all. She still has to see him when she comes out, and he hasn't done anything wrong.

Anyway, she has to learn about the birds and bees some time. The father should probably just tell her not to stare at anyone and not make a big deal about it. To the kid it's only a big deal if father tells her it's a big deal.

truemane

2010-10-01, 10:43 AM

I agree with some of the other posters here when I say: it's just a penis. It's not like the guy's dancing around wiggling it at her or anything. Maybe she'll look, maybe she'll stare, maybe even ask what it is. But the fact itself isn't going to break her or turn her into a skagged out crack-whote.

Her father's reaction to the experience will shape her outlook more than the sight itself. If he freaks out, she learns penises are bad news and all 'that stuff' is not to be discussed, which is far more harmful than the sight of random wang. If he just shrugs and acts like it's no big deal. So will she.

But I also agree that, as a rule, he should ask someone to check if the ladies room is empty and take her in there, if the option exists. She's not following him to the restroom, after all, he's following her.

Also, unrelated side note, when my younger boy was little, men's washrooms with no change stations were my biggest pet peeve. Partly because I had to then clear out the ladies room toi get my business done, and partly because of the implied gender bias.

Keld Denar

2010-10-01, 10:45 AM

Yea, I agree that apologizing would be worse. That would violate the Unspoken Rule Of Speaking. Thou shalt not do it. Eye contact is likewise prohibited. Stare at the floor, wash your hands, and gtfo with as little interaction as possible. Violation of this rule is considered to be as severe an infraction as not following the Every Other rule (except at sporting events)

Zom B

2010-10-01, 12:10 PM

If anyone is wondering, I was the father here, and as Serpentine guessed, my girl is 3 and has trouble with buttons and zippers still. One time she went into the ladies room by herself, and another woman came out to get me because my daughter was calling for me to help her. I don't really freak out if Mr. Urinator comes in to use a urinal, but my daughter does tend to look to see what someone is doing if she is unfamiliar with the activity, and using a urinal qualifies. I know that means that I have responsibility to shield her if I'm not ready for her to start asking about what's going on, but I also think that (thanks to input in this thread) that Mr. Urinator is not really a jerk, but he could be a bit more understanding and considerate of the circumstances.

As for me going into the women's room, I don't see me doing that. Sorry. I can see a woman freaking out and having the manager kick us out of the restaurant or store.

Thufir

2010-10-01, 12:33 PM

(a) They both take levels in cleric so they can always cast the spell.

(b) There is unisex clothing one can always wear.

I meant more that you'd suddenly be female and lacking a bra of any kind, unless you start constantly carrying one around with you.

John Cribati

2010-10-01, 12:35 PM

I meant more that you'd suddenly be female and lacking a bra of any kind, unless you start constantly carrying one around with you.

Alter the belt so that it turns you into poorly-endowed woman.

truemane

2010-10-01, 12:42 PM

As for me going into the women's room, I don't see me doing that. Sorry. I can see a woman freaking out and having the manager kick us out of the restaurant or store.

Back when my younger boy was an infant, there were nowhere near as many change stations in male washrooms as there are now. I'd say one in five mens rooms had one. So I used to have a manager/supervisor/whatever stand guard at the door to the ladies while I went in and changed him when he needed changing.

Serpentine

2010-10-02, 12:16 AM

If anyone is wondering, I was the father here, and as Serpentine guessed, my girl is 3 and has trouble with buttons and zippers still.Uhh... Nope, that was someone else :smallwink: And good on you :smallsmile: But frankly, if a woman tried to scream me out of a ladies' toilet for taking my daughter in there (if I were a man, obviously) I would give her the scolding of a lifetime. And if the manager then tried to kick me out, I would sue his arse off.

Coidzor

2010-10-02, 02:31 AM

I meant more that you'd suddenly be female and lacking a bra of any kind, unless you start constantly carrying one around with you.

Sew in a stealth bra into a suitable shirt? Hmm...

Runestar

2010-10-02, 06:23 AM

E) Use the toilet for the disabled instead? :smalltongue:

Dr.Epic

2010-10-03, 02:56 PM

I meant more that you'd suddenly be female and lacking a bra of any kind, unless you start constantly carrying one around with you.

As a dude, I don't see any problem with that.:smallbiggrin:

CynicalAvocado

2010-10-03, 09:02 PM

E) Use the toilet for the disabled instead? :smalltongue:

but that's always the first one to go

The Vorpal Tribble

2010-10-03, 09:11 PM

Who actually thinks that way?

I'm the eldest of 10 kids. I have 4 brothers, 5 sisters. Except for my two eldest sisters, every one of these kids have been taken into bathrooms by myself (yeah, fun...)

I have even had them stand to the side, both genders, as I used the urinal. They can't see, and they didn't try to look. I wouldn't think twice about any kid in there. Wouldn't even be something I'd think about.

Lioness

2010-10-03, 09:15 PM

As a dude, I don't see any problem with that.:smallbiggrin:

As a girl, not a good look. :smalltongue:

Thanatos 51-50

2010-10-03, 09:26 PM

I'm really confused.
How is this even a thing?

Trog

2010-10-03, 09:28 PM

The father is certainly not a jerk for being old enough to know that he himself shouldn't be in the women's room - little girl or no. So father did right by taking her into the men's room.

Restroom patron did right by doing his usual thing. Unless he was like on purpose trying to give the little girl a view in which case... ew. Otherwise nothing wrong with that. If he felt uncomfortable with the child in there then he can use a stall. Likely he didn't even notice or care that she was there.

The onus is on the father here, basically. If he doesn't want his girl to possibly see something there are easy enough ways to distract a small child to concentrating on getting more soap or looking at their hands or what have you. Father could have put himself on the side nearer the urinals to block view, etc. Lots of easy tricks to do there, really. If the father didn't do this then well he has to accept the consequences of not being vigilant in that way. Likely the consequences will be slight and nothing will be seen. And if something is seen, well, then you have to have a little talk if she asks questions about it. *shrug* Boys are different than girls is all. No biggie.

Keld Denar

2010-10-04, 01:24 PM

There is also the factor that a lot of guys just don't pay attention to their surroundings when they go into the bathroom. You don't really want to go about staring at people, and even meeting someone's eyes in the restroom can lead to awkwardness in some people. Thus, most of us are just in the habit of going in, sizing the area up for a suitable place to relieve ourselves (typically following the "every-other" rule if crouding isn't significant). If, in his cursary glance, I saw a child in the restroom, I'd probably assume it was a boy and go about my business unless it was BLATENTLY obvious due to bright pink My-Little-Ponies tshirt or something, and even then it would STILL most likely be overlooked because to a certain degree my consious mind just kinda shuts off in the restroom.

Its not something the man probably put a lot of consious effort into, simply because you don't put a whole lot of consious effort into using the restroom.

Amiel

2010-10-07, 02:22 AM

Question A: Was the mother absent in this scenario? Or elder female sibling?

Fawkes

2010-10-07, 03:41 PM

What's so horrible about a little girl seeing a man's penis?

Note to self: do not allow Eldan to babysit.

Dr.Epic

2010-10-07, 03:44 PM

As a girl, not a good look. :smalltongue:

Hey, you'd only wear it when you're a girl. All other times you just carry it around.

blunk

2010-10-07, 04:46 PM

C. guy really had to go, figured girl peed all over seat in stall

Serpentine

2010-10-07, 10:27 PM

Note to self: do not allow Eldan to babysit."It's not a big deal for a little girl to accidently glimpse a penis in an area where it is normal for a man to get it out" != "will waggle his willy at any child first chance he gets".

Phae Nymna

2010-10-07, 10:58 PM

Viewpoint Q: Gender Neutral or "Family Restrooms" are a boon to society and we should adopt them ASAP.

Amiel

2010-10-07, 11:05 PM

Backs away slowly from the posters in this thread...

:P

Dr.Epic

2010-10-07, 11:53 PM

Viewpoint Q: Gender Neutral or "Family Restrooms" are a boon to society and we should adopt them ASAP.

Wouldn't that be Viewpoint V named after everybody's favorite ambiguous elven wizard?

Fawkes

2010-10-08, 04:53 PM

"It's not a big deal for a little girl to accidently glimpse a penis in an area where it is normal for a man to get it out" != "will waggle his willy at any child first chance he gets".

It's funnier without the context.

John Cribati

2010-10-08, 06:27 PM

We all seem to be forgetting something. At least in New York, men in bathrooms do their best to avoid flashing anybody. Not really out of courtesy, but to prevent embarrassment. Especially if the room is air-conditioned.

snoopy13a

2010-10-08, 07:17 PM

Jack Squat

2010-10-08, 07:30 PM

Quite often, the bar is very crowded which creates rather long lines for the restrooms. Normally, the line for the women's restroom proceeds much more slowly than the men's line.

What do people think of the practice of female bar patrons using the men's room in order to avoid the significantly longer lines for the women's room? While relatively uncommon, this is not unheard of.

I don't see a problem for it so long as they ask rather than just expecting it to be fine. Had it happen before - no one acted out of the ordinary.

Starbuck_II

2010-10-08, 08:20 PM

Another Etiquette question:

Quite often, the bar is very crowded which creates rather long lines for the restrooms. Normally, the line for the women's restroom proceeds much more slowly than the men's line.

What do people think of the practice of female bar patrons using the men's room in order to avoid the significantly longer lines for the women's room? While relatively uncommon, this is not unheard of.

Ask long as you apologize if a man is offended (rare but possible). I mean, the throne is invaded :smallbiggrin:

Really, I find it weird that Bathrooms (male/female) have same number of stalls. Shouldn't they add an extra stall in the ladies because us men can have urinals?
It seems like it would cut down on lines.

Capt Spanner

2010-10-08, 08:34 PM

Tinkee

2010-10-08, 11:17 PM

I say the father should have looked for a family accessible restroom if possible. If one isn't available then he should have covered her eyes or walked her out once the other man walked in to the restroom. Although If I were the other guy walking in to the restroom I would have had the sense to walk into a stall with a door.