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Edhelras
2010-09-30, 04:39 PM
I've got a question about identifying artifacts. It's concerning the gem "Starry Gnosis", from Cormyr: The tearing of the Weave.

The party has got hold of a minor artifact. As an artifact, Identify cannot be used to identify it. The PCs took an alternative route, and didn't get exposed to the artifact the planned way, they just found it as hidden treasure.

The adventure appendix lists the Knowledge DCs to research more about the artifact. But the lore provided seems to rely on the PCs already knowing the name and basic nature of the artifact.

So my question: How can the party come to know what an artifact is, what it's called, the basics that they can start their research (or search their own memories for) upon?

Is there any way through magic to discern the nature of an artifact, or to get a lead for further research?
Or will I have to add a diary or overlooked note or something, that can directly tell the PCs the name of the item?

Glimbur
2010-09-30, 04:44 PM
Bardic Knowledge or a knowledge check of the appropriate type should give them a name. If this is a famous artifact which is in well-remembered stories and songs, then that should be an easy DC (~10). If it's powerful but hidden, like the gem that holds the sky up which no one knows about, the DC should be much higher (20-30).

Alternately, Legend Lore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm) will tell them what the thing is and some legends about it. This isn't the same as an identify, but it will work on an artifact.

Edhelras
2010-09-30, 04:52 PM
Right. Legend Lore would do the trick, except the PCs are lvl 4, so it's beyond their reach. They could find a higher-lvl sage in town, of course.

The party has one very intelligent gnome wizard, and they have a cleric of Deneir with a good INT and good knowledge religion score.

The artifact may well be quite renowned (the Lore DC 10 text gives away its origin and some of its function), but it's not marked with any kind of identifying text, and it's totally not expected to show up in this place.

So I'm wondering how the PCs will come to realize that "Ah... this must be the Starry Gnosis, let's do some research or Knowledge checks".

Seems improbable to me that you can pick up an unknown item, scan it with detect magic and then just, by making a DC 10 knowledge check, know the name of the item.

Unless the simple holding of an artifact imparts its name into your mind?

I guess I'll have to drop a note some place, to let them know where to start their research.

senrath
2010-09-30, 05:13 PM
Well, why wouldn't they look into it? They have something that detects as Overwhelmingly magical (only artifacts and deity level magic detects as such with Detect Magic). So at the very least they know they have an artifact in their hands, and if that doesn't make them want to know more about it, I don't know what will.

Edhelras
2010-09-30, 05:17 PM
Surprisingly, this minor artifact is listed as having only a moderate aura (CL9 - Spellcraft DC19).

But it's still stronger aura than the other stuff they've found, yes. And it has an immediate effect on those handling it. So I guess it should be possible to get some clues that way.

BTW any suggestion on how the PC feels when she's experiences 1d4 Wisdom damage?

senrath
2010-09-30, 05:22 PM
Suddenly rather tired, as if the weight of everything was suddenly catching up to them? Or maybe that their senses are starting to feel rather...off, and things are starting to blur together slightly?

Also, if they do try and cast Identify, they'll know immediately that it's an artifact (or else that something strange is going on), since the spell will completely fail to work.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-30, 07:31 PM
Well, when they cast Identify and it comes up "OMGWTF DOES NOT COMPUTE", they should know that they have something odd or unique. A simple Knowledge (arcane) check should tell them that an artifact can't be Identified, and is one of the very few things which can't.

This should get them interested in finding someone who knows about artifacts. Introduce minor NPC Bard X, known for collecting tales on artifacts, who makes a Bardic Knowledge check to info-dump relevant information about artifact, including name.

dgnslyr
2010-09-30, 09:24 PM
Poke things with it. Pray for the best.

arguskos
2010-09-30, 09:31 PM
Poke things with it. Pray for the best.
Yes. :smallbiggrin:

Also, say random phrases and wave it at stuff. Look through it. Experiment with the thing. It's a gem, right? Well, do gem-like stuff with it and see what happens.

Shenanigans
2010-10-01, 08:43 AM
As far as realizing what it is, depending on exactly how they discovered it, they should be able to realize that someone other than Mystra is up to some shenanigans. IIRC, the adventure will shortly reveal to them that at least one of these other someones is Shar. Then they should be able to piece something about the Starry Gnosis together.

Saintheart
2010-10-01, 09:06 AM
Well, when they cast Identify and it comes up "OMGWTF DOES NOT COMPUTE", they should know that they have something odd or unique.

For some reason this made me LOL. Probably the mental image--

"Manzorian the Red, member of the Order of Magists and Protectors of Waterdeep, whispers lowly to himself, making several small gestures with his hands over the item.

After a few seconds, he looks up at the party, his eyeballs rolling over in his head like a Las Vegas slot machine. 'Identify doesn't seem to work on it,' he intones."

Edhelras
2010-10-01, 01:58 PM
As far as realizing what it is, depending on exactly how they discovered it, they should be able to realize that someone other than Mystra is up to some shenanigans. IIRC, the adventure will shortly reveal to them that at least one of these other someones is Shar. Then they should be able to piece something about the Starry Gnosis together.

Wow! You're really serious about your shananigans! :smallwink:

But yeah, that's a good point, really, it will give some useful clues further on. I was a bit too quick there, maybe.

The problem with seeking out the local Bard is that the party is under some pressure to solve this thing before the local government finds out. Even more so because the party Paladin is somewhat uncomfortable with the whole expedition - which so far is freelance. Only the discovery (through his own scanning) of overtly Evil priests inside a temple of Mystra has made him press on, instead of leaving it to the local authorities.

BTW I ruled that such an artifact, once belonging to a statue of Shar, and being used by her minions, must radiate Evil as well Enchantment, and was so scanned by the Paladin. I guess this will make it easier for the party to put the clues together.

I wonder, too, whether it would be possible to detect it as the product of Shadow Magic (which it is)? I guess the effect (WIS loss primarily affecting the senses of the Rogue who picked it up, and providing Darkvision) may give some clues. But I wonder if there is any way for the party Wizard to "sense" that Shadow Magic is in play, and not ordinary Weave magic?

Finally, I was looking a bit into the section on Gem magic in Magic of Faerun. But it's not clear to me whether this artifact is the product of Gem magic?

Shenanigans
2010-10-01, 02:32 PM
Yes, I am serious about my shenanigans. :) Now where's that leprechaun avatar?

Again, IIRC, the Starry Gnosis was made by Shar herself, and isn't really "gem magic" in the proper sense of the word.

arguskos
2010-10-01, 04:09 PM
I wonder, too, whether it would be possible to detect it as the product of Shadow Magic (which it is)? I guess the effect (WIS loss primarily affecting the senses of the Rogue who picked it up, and providing Darkvision) may give some clues. But I wonder if there is any way for the party Wizard to "sense" that Shadow Magic is in play, and not ordinary Weave magic?
Yes, but it is difficult. Shadow Weave Magic is, like the shadows themselves, hard to pin down and clarify, as it tends to blend in a little too well. There are no rules, but the fluff is pretty clear that tracing Shadow Weave users down is tough, as is tracing the magic itself. I'd probably invent some mechanics to differentiate the Weaves, but that's just me.


Finally, I was looking a bit into the section on Gem magic in Magic of Faerun. But it's not clear to me whether this artifact is the product of Gem magic?
It's not. Gem Magic are things like magic gems that cast spells, store magic, etc. This thing is an Artifact, and thus beyond mortal ken.

herrhauptmann
2010-10-01, 05:07 PM
Yes, but it is difficult. Shadow Weave Magic is, like the shadows themselves, hard to pin down and clarify, as it tends to blend in a little too well. There are no rules, but the fluff is pretty clear that tracing Shadow Weave users down is tough, as is tracing the magic itself. I'd probably invent some mechanics to differentiate the Weaves, but that's just me.


It's not. Gem Magic are things like magic gems that cast spells, store magic, etc. This thing is an Artifact, and thus beyond mortal ken.
Don't need to make up too much regarding teh shadow weave. Players guide to Faerun. 3 Feats:
-SW users are at a +1 Cl for enchantment, illusion, and necromancy. A -1 for Evocation and Transmutation.
-Regular casters need a caster level check to identify (ex: detect magic) or even find (ex: see invisibility) spells cast by SW users.
-Regular casters are at a -5 when attempting to dispel a SW spell from Illusion, Enchantment, and Necromancy.
It's a safe assumption that the artifact would have all 3 effects if and when they're applicable.

Question for the OP: What exactly is the gem, and how did they find it? I ask because I'm curious, and it might make me think of another few suggestions

Options for you the DM:

-Players just 'find' a scroll of Legend Lore when looting. I'd recommend waiting until they've tried identify, detect magic, and whatever else they've got.

-Have them attacked by a random Sharran (not related to the plot), who shouts things like "Give me the Star!" This would just let them know that the star is important.

-Local gnome who specializes in Gem Magic (particularly if he's already shown interest in buying the gem off the party). His shop gets held up, and the thief holds the gnome at knife point while his buddies ransack the shop. Eventually shouting "It's not here!" And they leave, without taking anything.

-When they try to cast identify, don't even let the spellslot/scroll get used up. Tell them outright 'It doesn't work.' rather than "You can't figure anything out." Hopefully they'll look up the spell identify and notice it says "The spell doesn't function when used on an artifact."

-Perhaps when they find a shrine to shar, have them make a spot check. A DC 20 will let them notice a mural on the wall, showing Shar holding the Gem, with everyone bowing down before her. Or it might show her using the Gem.
Ex: Painting shows a Sharran being attacked by priests of Selune/Lathander/Mystra/whoever. Next image, they gain the Gem. Third image, they hold it forth, and the enemies are crushed by flaming rocks.
This would work if the Gem created a Meteor Swarm (among other things).

-Other options, if they browse ransack a library. Let them find a scroll or book which mentions the Gem.
"And these then are the artifacts sacred to Shar.
For Shar is the destruction of all things, the sphere of annihiliation, and the talisman of the sphere are her tools. Woe betide mankind should a Sharran ever possess both.
Long has Shar worked to defeat her sister Selune, and the product of their divine energies combined: Mystra. To this end she has crafted the shadow weave, and by wearing the Mantle of Shar about her shoulders, a follower of shar gains command over Lycanthropes and finds both her presence, and her actions, invisible to the eyes of the Chosen of Mystra and Selune. This Mantle is but part of the Raiment of Shar.
And then make up another for the Gem, another part of the raiment.

You could consider them all a set like in the MiC. Possessing the Gem helps direct them to the next of the raiment. Once they've got the full set, they can proceed to find a wielder of Mystras silverfire (Her Chosen), or spellfire (1st level feat, and a prestige class), and have said person destroy them all in one fell swoop.

Edhelras
2010-10-02, 01:56 PM
Huh. Turns out I found exactly the answer to my question, in Magic of Faerun p. 136:


Self-identifying magic items. Many powerful magic items, particularly minor artifacts, reveal their powers to anyone who holds them. When someone holds a self-identifying item and concentrates, she learns one of the item's powers each minute until the item has revealed all its powers. The item always reveals powers in the order they are listed in the item's description. A successful spellcraft or bardic knowledge check (DC20) reveals all the powers at once. Any item other than a potion or scroll can be created as a self-identifying item.

40 % of randomly generated magic items are self-identifying (curiously, the text doesn't mention what happens if you roll 41-60, a roll of 61-100 indicates the item is not self-identifying).

Meh. The party has already spent a lot of time trying to figure out what the artifact was, and a lot of fun came out of it. They too got some help from a cocky villain, talking too much when she thought her victory secure.

But it's OK to know that at least minor artifact will frequently reveal their nature to those who find it. In this case, the item was made with Shadow Magic, and it seems right that it wouldn't just reveal itself to any non-Sharran user.

Lysander
2010-10-02, 07:20 PM
Why can't a Knowledge Arcana check reveal it?


Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)

Who says there isn't a description of the artifact in some ancient book they've read?