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Fax Celestis
2010-09-30, 08:40 PM
Paladin Progression
{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4
1st | +1 | +2 | +0 | +2 | Lay on Hands, Aura | 1 | 1 | - | - | -
2nd | +2 | +3 | +0 | +3 | Divine Grace, Mantle of Faith | 1 | 1 | - | - | -
3rd | +3 | +3 | +1 | +3 | Smite 1/day | 1 | 1 | - | - | -
4th | +4 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Mantle of Faith | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
5th | +5 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Smite 2/day | 2 | 2 | 1 | - | -
6th | +6/+1 | +5 | +2 | +5 | - | 2 | 2 | 1 | - | -
7th | +7/+2 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Mantle of Faith | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
8th | +8/+3 | +6 | +2 | +6 | Smite 3/day | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | -
9th | +9/+4 | +6 | +3 | +6 | - | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
10th | +10/+5 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Mantle of Faith | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
11th | +11/+6/+1 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Smite 4/day | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
12th | +12/+7/+2 | +8 | +4 | +8 | - | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1
13th | +13/+8/+3 | +8 | +4 | +8 | Mantle of Faith | 5 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 1
14th | +14/+9/+4 | +9 | +4 | +9 | Smite 5/day | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1
15th | +15/+10/+5 | +9 | +5 | +9 | - | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1
16th | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Mantle of Faith | 6 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2
17th | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Smite 6/day | 6 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 2
18th | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +11 | +6 | +11 | - | 6 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 2
19th | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +11 | +6 | +11 | Mantle of Faith | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2
20th | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +12 | +6 | +12 | Smite 7/day, Unrelenting Conviction | 6 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 [/table]

Class Features
HD: d10

Skills: A paladin is trained in the Knight skill set and one other set.

Prowess: A paladin gains six points of prowess per level.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Paladins are proficient with simple weapons, with three weapon groups of their choosing, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).

Spells: A paladin casts divine spells, which are drawn from the Courage and Glory domain spell lists. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. To cast a spell, a paladin must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a paladin's spell is 10 + the spell level + the paladin's Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the table. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

The paladin's selection of spells is extremely limited: he only knows spells associated with the Courage and Glory domains. Some mantles add spells to his spell list: in all instances, these mantles only add spells of levels he can cast.

As noted above, a paladin need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell's level.

Aura (Ex): The power of a paladinís aura is equal to his paladin level. His aura matches his alignment. See the detect good spell for details.

Lay on Hands (Su): A paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (his own or those of others) by touch. Each day he can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to his paladin level multiplied by his Charisma bonus. A paladin may choose to divide his healing among multiple recipients, and he doesnít have to use it all at once. Using lay on hands is a standard action. The caster level for lay on hands (if required) is equal to the paladin's level.

Alternatively, a paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal radiant damage. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesnít provoke an attack of opportunity. The paladin decides how many of his daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching a creature.

Mantle of Faith (Su): A paladin receives gifts from his patron deity according to his faith. Starting at second level, again at fourth level, and then again every three levels thereafter, the paladin receives blessings from his patron deity in exchange for a stricter code of conduct. In this way, the higher level a paladin becomes, the stricter his vows are and the more trust his deity has in him. A paladin can select any mantle of faith from the lists following the class table upon leveling up, as long as they match the paladin's current alignment. Mantles that have Aura effects have a radius of 30' and affect the paladin and his allies unless otherwise specified. In the case of multiple paladins with aura-generating mantles, the effects of mantles generally stack as long as they are different mantles: if two paladins share the Grace mantle, the bonuses only apply once, though both effects have their own areas.

Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a paladin gains a divine bonus equal to his Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.

Smite (Su): Starting at 3rd level, once per day, a paladin may attempt to smite with one normal melee attack. He adds his Charisma bonus (if any) to his attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level.

At 5th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite one additional time per day, to a maximum of seven times per day at 20th level.

Unrelenting Conviction (Su): Through dedicated and exceptional service to your deity, you have gained their personal favor. When you attack an enemy whose alignment opposes your own, your attack is treated as a smite even if you have no smite attempts remaining or did not use a smite attack.

Mantles of Faith
Abstinence
The paladin has foresworn the use of drugs, alcohol, potions, and other similar substances. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly imbibes any drug, alcohol, potion, or similar.

The paladin gains access to the Healing domain's spells as paladin spells. In addition, he emanates an aura that grants a divine bonus on saving throws against poison, disease, and effects that deal ability damage equal to ľ his paladin level to allies.

Atonement Method: A paladin who violates the Abstinence mantle can atone by fasting for one week's time.

Alliance
The paladin has contracted a subordinate creature to further his cause. He loses all aspects of this mantle if his mount dies.

The paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve his in his crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium paladin) or a war-pony (for a Small paladin). See the Companion chapter for how to handle a paladin's mount.

Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call his mount from the extrapalanar realms in which it resides. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladinís level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin and remains for 2 hours per paladin level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. The mount is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the paladin may release a particular mount from service.

Each time the mount is called, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Calling a mount is a calling effect.

Should the paladinís mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The paladin takes a -1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls for a period of 30 days or until he atones (as per this mantle's Atonement entry), whichever is shorter.

Atonement: The paladin must seek a course of resurrection for the deceased creature.

Anarchy
The paladin has taken a vow to resist authority and promote the freedom of the individual. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he submits to someone on the grounds of their authority.

The paladin radiates an aura that allows all affected to roll two dice per die when determining damage and select the higher die.

Atonement Method: A paladin who has violated the Anarchy mantle can atone by overthrowing an authoritative group.

Audacity
A paladin must never show any fear. They lose all benefits of this mantle if they ever allow someone to Intimidate them or prevent them from doing/force them to do something through threats or display of arms.

The paladin becomes immune to fear effects. In addition, the paladin radiates an aura that grants a divine bonus to saving throws against fear effects equal to half the paladin's class level (round down, minimum 1).

Atonement Method: A paladin who violates the Audacity mantle can atone by defeating a creature of CR higher than his ECL in single combat.

Authority
A paladin is always right, and those who do not agree with him usually end up dead. He loses the benefits of this mantle if he takes orders from anyone other than a servant of his deity.

The paladin gains access to the Fate domain's spells as paladin spells.

Atonement Method: In order to atone for violating the Authority mantle, a paladin must slaughter the one whom he took orders from.

Bravado
The paladin is certain of himself and his actions, and will not back down to others' authority. More often, his powerful self-assurance sways others to his cause. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he fails an Intimidate check, becomes frightened, shaken, or panicked, or smites a creature that is unaffected by his smite attack.

The paladin becomes trained in Intimidate (or becomes a journeyman if he is an apprentice). He receives an anarchic bonus to Intimidate checks equal to Ĺ his class level (round down, minimum 1).

Atonement Method: A paladin who has violated the Bravado mantle can atone by defeating a creature of higher CR than his ECL in single combat.

Charity
The paladin has sworn to tithe at least 20% of all his earnings (including treasure) to charity and the church. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he fails to tithe that amount.

The paladin becomes a Master of Diplomacy. In addition, he generates an aura that grants a divine bonus equal to his Charisma modifier to saving throws against charm effects.

Atonement Method: A paladin who violates the Charity mantle can atone by giving away at least 50% of his assets.

Conflict
The paladin thrives on conflict, and loses all benefit of this mantle if they are defeated in combat (including escaping from combat).

The paladin gains access to the War domain's spells as paladin spells.

Atonement Method: In order to atone for violating the conflict mantle the paladin must single-handedly cause a great conflict involving at least a dozen people--other than himself.

Conviction
The paladin is certain of himself and his actions, so much so that his unswerving faith augments his martial prowess. The paladin loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever questions his faith or attacks another member of his faith.

The paladin's attacks are considered bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At tenth level, all his attacks are also considered magical, lawful, and silver for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At fifteenth level, all his attacks are also considered adamantine, mithral, and are aligned to match the paladin's alignment for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At twentieth level, the paladin ignores the first ten points of his foe's damage reduction.

Atonement Method: In order to atone for violating the conviction mantle, a paladin must take on a dangerous quest from a powerful figure of their faith and complete the quest without promise of compensation.

Deceit
The lengths that a paladin will go to protect himself knows no bounds. You lose all benefits of this mantle if you ever put yourself in direct danger without first trying to a safer alternative (of course, putting allies in danger is fine, especially if it gets you out of danger).

The paladin gains access to the Trickery domain's spells as paladin spells.

Atonement Method: A paladin who violates the Deceit mantle must spend at least a day making at least 5 elaborate contingency plans to protect himself in dangerous situations and must enact at least 3 of those plans to atone.

Diligence
The paladin has sworn to examine his opponents and his surroundings thoroughly. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he does not attempt every legitimate action before giving up.

The paladin radiates an aura that provides a sacred bonus to Awareness checks equal to ľ his class level. At fifth level, the paladin gains darkvision 60' and low-light vision. At tenth level, the paladin gains scent. At fifteenth level, the paladin gains tremorsense 30'. At twentieth level, the paladin gains blindsight 15'.

Atonement Method: A paladin who violates the Diligence mantle can atone by willingly subjecting himself to blindness (temporary or permanent) for at least a day.

Discord
The paladin is dedicated to sowing chaos and discord in his wake. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever tells the whole truth or rolls a natural 1 on a Bluff check.

The paladin becomes trained in Bluff (or becomes a journeyman if he is an apprentice) and receives a sacred bonus to Bluff checks equal to Ĺ his class level (round down, minimum 1). In addition, the paladin can spend 20 points of his Lay on Hands ability to inflict a confusion effect (as the spell) to a creature he touches.

Atonement Method: The paladin must succeed on a Bluff check with a natural 20.

Entropy
The paladin becomes a living force of the eventual destruction of all things. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever leaves a combative foe alive.

The paladin emanates an aura of entropy. All opponents within 30' suffer a -1 penalty to AC, attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and skill checks. This increases to -2 at seventh level, -3 at fourteenth level, and -4 at twentieth level.

Atonement Method: A paladin who violates the Entropy mantle can atone by pursuing and slaying the foe that caused him to violate the mantle.

Freedom
The paladin commits himself to freeing all creatures from magical constraints across the planes. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever uses magic to arrest or command another creature.

The paladin gains access to the Travel domain's spells as paladin spells.

Atonement Method: To atone for violating the Freedom mantle, the paladin must free a group of imprisoned people from captors with a combined CR of the paladin's level or greater.

Grace
The paladin has sworn to protect his allies, with his life should the need arise. He loses all aspects of this mantle if an ally of his within 60' falls in combat before the paladin falls.

The paladin gains access to the Protection domain's spells as paladin spells. In addition, he generates an aura that grants a divine bonus to Reflex saves equal to ľ his class level.

Atonement Method: A paladin who violates the Grace mantle can atone by either finding the means to return his fallen comrades to life or providing them with proper and honorable burials.

Greed
The paladin is overcome by the desire for material wealth and must spend at least 20% of all earnings (including treasure) on valuables or art objects which have no value as adventuring equipment (or alternatively, the paladin could just hoard all the gold). The Paladin loses all benefit of this mantle if they fail to buy this amount, or if they use this treasure to buy any adventuring equipment.

The paladin gains the Wealth domain intrinsic power. In addition, he gains access to the Wealth domain's spells as paladin spells.

Atonement Method: A Paladin who violates the Greed mantle can atone by acquiring treasure equal to 30% of his current assets.

Honesty
The paladin has foresworn lying, for any reason. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly makes a Bluff check for any reason other than to feint in combat, if he ever uses the Forgery skill, or if he ever lies.

The paladin gains access to the Moon domain's spells as paladin spells.

Atonement Method: A paladin who breaks the Honesty mantle can atone by declaring what he is and who he worships in the middle of a medium sized or larger city of an average alignment that he does not share.

Honor
The paladin holds himself to honorable standards of combat set down by his god. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever feints, trips, or gains the benefits of flanking in combat.

The paladin receives a divine bonus to melee attack rolls equal to his Charisma modifier or half his paladin level (round down, minimum 1), whichever is lower.

Atonement Method: A paladin who violates the Honor mantle can atone by offering his services to a judge or similar ruling authority for a month.

Humility
The paladin understands that, to be truly great, one must remain humble. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever boasts or exaggerates about his accomplishments or uses social status to influence another.

The paladin generates an aura that grants a divine bonus to saves against illusions and compulsion effects equal to ľ the paladin's class level.

Atonement Method: A paladin who violates the Humility mantle can atone by offering his services to a person of no significant social status for one month.

Justice
The paladin is an agent of justice and must uphold the law to its fullest extent. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly breaks a law or associates with lawbreakers.

The paladin gains access to the Might domain's spells as paladin spells. He also gains the Might domain's intrinsic power.

Atonement Method: A paladin who violates the Justice mantle must seek out and bring to justice a lawbreaker in a public form in order to atone.

Luck
The paladin receives the blessing of his deity in the form of lucky breaks. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever rolls a 1 on a d20 roll without using a reroll.

The paladin gains access to the Luck domain's spells as paladin spells. In addition, the paladin can reroll a number of d20 rolls per day equal to his Charisma modifier, after seeing the die result but before determining its affects. He must accept the second result.

Atonement Method: A paladin who violates the Luck mantle can atone by rolling a natural 20 and voluntarily reducing it to a 1.

Merciless
Mercy is a tool of the weak to protect the weak. The paladin loses all benefits of this mantle if they ever purposefully deal non-lethal damage with an attack, or lets one of their enemies live through combat without hunting them down and killing them.

The paladin gains a +1 to all attack and damage rolls vs. an opponent they hit in the previous round of combat. This bonus increases to +2 at 5th level, +3 at 10th level, +4 at 15th level, and +5 at 20th level.

Atonement Method: In order to atone for violating the Merciless mantle a paladin must show their lack of mercy by publicly execute someone for some minor slight (bumping into them, speaking to them with disrespect, etc.).

Mercy
The paladin has sworn an oath to never willingly harm non-evil creatures. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever knowingly kills a non-evil creature or performs a coup de grace.

The paladin can deal non-lethal damage with any weapon without receiving a -4 penalty. In addition, whenever he deals non-lethal damage to a target, he deals +1d6 extra non-lethal damage for each three paladin levels and can deal non-lethal damage with a smite.

Atonement Method: A paladin who violates the Mercy mantle can atone by offering his services to a hospital or other medical organization for one month.

Patience
The paladin has sworn an oath to never rush in without thinking and to always consider all courses of action. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever acts without considering the consequences or attacks in the first round of combat.

The paladin only needs four hours of sleep a night. At seventh level, the paladin does not need to eat more than one meal a week. At fourteenth level, the paladin no longer needs to breathe. At twentieth level, the paladin no longer needs to eat or sleep.

Atonement Method: In order to atone for violating the Patience mantle, the paladin must spend the first 5 rounds of combat analyzing the situation and taking no actions.

Peace
The paladin holds himself to a peaceful standard in accordance with his god's wishes. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly enters into combat without trying to prevent it, or if he witnesses conflict without trying to prevent it.

The paladin emanates an aura that mimics a calm emotions spell. Unlike most mantles, the Peace mantle's aura affects all creatures within its radius. It has a caster level equal to the paladin's class level, and it uses a saving throw equal to 12 + the paladin's Charisma modifier. If the paladin attacks a creature affected by this aura (specifically, one that failed its saving throw), the aura deactivates for five minutes.

Atonement Method: A paladin who violates the Peace mantle can atone by preventing a major conflict (such as a battle or gang war).

Perseverance
A paladin must never falter and never sway on his chosen path. He holds himself to a resolute and stoic standard in accordance with his god's wishes. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly stands down from a fight he knows he can win, or if he gives up in the face of adversity.

The paladin radiates an aura that grants DR/- equal to half his paladin level (round down, minimum 1) or his Charisma modifier, whichever is lower. In addition, once per day for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma modifier, a paladin can surround himself and his allies with an aura of magical resilience. This aura grants SR equal to his class level plus his Charisma modifier.

Atonement Method: A paladin who violates the Perseverance mantle must complete a nearly impossible task (cutting down a great tree with a dagger, translating a huge ancient text, etc.) over the course of several days. During that time the paladin can perform no other actions except those needed to survive.

Piety
A paladin must pray to his deity, and those with the Piety Mantle of Faith must pray exceptionally. He holds himself to a standard where he must pray at least five times per day, for at least an hour per prayer session. He loses all aspects of his mantle if he goes one day without praying five times, with at least one hour of time between periods of prayer.

The paladin generates an aura that grants a divine bonus on saving throws equal to one-half his paladin level (round down, minimum 1), or his Charisma modifier, whichever is lower.

Atonement Method: In order to atone for violating a Piety mantle, a paladin must spend a week in intense prayer, during which time they make take no other actions except what is needed to survive (eating, sleeping, breathing, etc.).

Prudence
A paladin is aware of the strength of both his allies and his foes, and never places his allies into a situation where they could be greatly harmed or even slain. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly allows allies to put themselves in great danger without first attempting to find a less dangerous solution.

The paladin emanates an aura that grants a divine bonus to armor class equal to the paladin's Charisma modifier or half the paladin's class level (round down, minimum 1), whichever is lower.

Atonement Method: A paladin who violates the Prudence mantle can atone by spending a week in solitary meditation and reflection.

Purity
A paladin must stand against the forces of evil without becoming evil himself. He holds himself to a strict standard: do no evil, lest ye become like one of them. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly commits an evil act or associates with evil creatures.

The paladin gains the intrinsic power of the Life domain, substituting his paladin level for his cleric level. The paladin gains access to the Life domain's spells as paladin spells.

Atonement Method: A paladin who violates the Purity mantle can atone by seeking out and destroying a group of undead of CR equal to his ECL or higher, plus 2 for each ally that helps him do so.

Redemption
A paladin must redeem others who do not adhere to faith as vehemently as he. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he does not forgive those who err in the name of good.

The paladin's lay on hands ability gains new functions. It can remove disease (as the spell) by spending 10 points of healing, remove curse (as the spell) by spending 20 points, and create an atonement effect (as the spell) by spending 40 points. The atonement effect cannot affect the paladin, only other creatures.

Atonement Method: A paladin who violates the Redemption mantle can atone by seeking out and obtaining a full pardon for a wrongly accused criminal.

Survival
A paladin's survival takes precedence over the survival of all others. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever aids an ally (whether through healing, beneficial spells, or the aid another action) when he himself is not at full HP.

The paladin radiates an aura that grants a divine bonus on Fortitude saves equal to ľ the paladin's class level (round down, minimum 1).

Atonement Method: A paladin atones for violating the Survival mantle only when the ally they aided to break the mantle dies (the mantle is not broken again if the ally is resurrected in one way or another: the ally only need die, not stay dead).

Temperance
A paladin must display self-restraint in all their actions. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he attacks in the first round of combat.

The paladin emanates an aura that grants a divine bonus on ranged attack rolls equal to half his class level (round down, minimum 1) or his Charisma modifier, whichever is lower.

Atonement Method: A paladin who violates the Temperance mantle can atone by not acting for ten rounds of combat.

Valor
A paladin must be regal and valorous to combat the forces of evil. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he attempts to coerce or influence anyone through Intimidation.

The paladin becomes immune to fear effects. In addition, he emanates an aura that grants a divine bonus to saving throws against fear effects equal to half his paladin's class level (round down, minimum 1).

Atonement Method: A paladin who violates the Valor mantle can atone by offering his services to a local temple for a period of at least 1 week.

Vengeance
A paladin does not take lightly to those who oppose him. He loses all benefit of this mantle if he refuses to kill a member of an opposing faith given the opportunity.

The paladin's lay on hands ability gains new functions. He can use contagion (as the spell) by spending 15 points of healing, bestow curse (as the spell) by spending 20 points, and create a slay living effect (as the spell) by spending 40 points. The save DC for these abilities is equal to 10 + 1/2 paladin level + Cha mod.

Atonement Method: A paladin who violates the Vengeance mantle can atone by killing another creature with his Lay on Hands ability.

Zeal
A paladin must always accept an honorable challenge. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever does not accept an honorable challenge.

The paladin deals +1d6 damage when performing smite attacks. This improves to +2d6 at 5th level, +3d6 at 10th level, +4d6 at 15th level, and +5d6 at 20th level.

Atonement Method: A paladin who violates the Zeal mantle can atone by challenging another warrior of at least equal power to them to a fair duel.

Regaining Mantles of Faith
A paladin who ceases to be of proper alignment for his Mantles of Faith or who violates the codes of conduct set down in his Mantles of Faith loses all paladin spells and the abilities granted by the affected Mantles. He may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. He regains his abilities and advancement potential if he atones for his violations as appropriate.

Metamantle Feats
Surge of Faith
Requirements: Two Mantles of Faith

Benefit: Once per day, you may sacrifice a paladin spell slot to augment one of your Mantles of Faith. Your effective paladin level for one Mantle of Faith increases by an amount equal to the level of the sacrificed spell. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier plus your Charisma modifier (minimum 1).

Special: You may take this feat up to three times. Each time, it adds one daily use.

Surge of Glory
Requirements: Two Mantles of Faith

Benefit: Once per day, you may sacrifice a paladin spell slot to augment one of your Mantles of Faith. All numeric effects for one Mantle of Faith increase by an amount equal to the level of the sacrificed spell. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier plus your Charisma modifier (minimum 1).

Special: You may take this feat up to three times. Each time, it adds one daily use.

Surge of Grandeur
Requirements: Two Mantles of Faith

Benefit: Once per day, you may sacrifice a paladin spell slot to augment one of your Mantles of Faith. The effective radius for one Mantle of Faith increases by an amount equal to the level of the sacrificed spell times 5'. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier plus your Charisma modifier (minimum 1).

Special: You may take this feat up to three times. Each time, it adds one daily use.

MammonAzrael
2010-09-30, 09:04 PM
Table has "Aura of Good" instead of Aura. I'm assuming your Paladins don't have alignment requirements.
BAB, Saves, HD, Skills and Prowess look good.
Paladins might be a good class to have starting proficiencies with Tower shields.
I like the spell selection. Limited, but fitting. have you modified the divine spells? As it is, with the severely limited selection and the delayed progression, it might be a little too watered down. Between the two options, I'd give them access to higher level spells, since only having access to Courage and Glory domain spells fits so well.
Spontaneous casting feels very solid on him.
Aura - Can Paladin's be True Neutral? Would make an Aura more difficult.
Lay on Hands looks solid. I hope there will be some feats to modify it or increase its array of use or the amount it can heal.
Divine Grace - yes please.
I liked the Mantles in the original version. Feels very much like a Diablo 2 Paladin, which I think is awesome. Will go over them soon.
Smite still feels unimpressive. I think part of the problem is the low daily usage. Some possible alternatives would be changing it to one use per enemy per day, or X times per encounter, or having the bonus apply to all attacks in a round possibly requiring a Swift action to activate. Look at it more like a ToB Boost and I think it'll feel a lot more impressive.
Unrelenting Conviction is pretty awesome, but seems a little weak for a lv 20 capstone. Feels more like a PrC capstone. While I don't think you should ascend or anything like that, some way to boost your defenses, or increase the power of your Mantles would make a good capstone.

unosarta
2010-09-30, 09:04 PM
You have five dead levels, evenly spaced out. Some sort of passive ability progression seems incredibly perfect, unless you feel that a) they do not need to get rid of the dead levels, or b) that d20R has more dead levels.

If you were to use it, maybe some sort of alignment based abilities? The only ones that actively deal with an alignment so far are the Aura and Smite abilities. The mantles seem to sort of present more of the ideals of the alignments, or personal ideals based on non-alignment personality.

Maybe, if you do not want to have some sort of alignment based ability (either because the alignment system is quite honestly dumb, or because it is not being implemented in d20R [I certainly hope it is this one], or that the alignments represent too far focused of an ideal that the character shouldn't have to live up to, rather having them live up to a multiple set of ideals, the mantle system), you could add some sort of mantle empowering ability, giving you actual abilities from the mantles. Right now, they are flavorful, and awesome, but honestly, this class is rather boring. It doesn't get enough spells for that to be interesting, the smite is too limited for it to be anything more than a 1/encounter ability, and even then, it is just smiting; "Ooh, look, I dealt a marginal amount of damage more than I normally do! Whoopee!"

The mantles are interesting, but most provide a simple passive benefit, and that is quite honestly not that interesting mechanically. You combine, them, and what do you have? A character that is quite flavorful to play, but mechanically boring.

This is why I present the idea of filling those dead levels with the Paladin being able to choose one mantle per dead level, and gain an ability with it. The abilities would hopefully be per encounter, or at-will, but per day is already both in the smite and the spells. If it is at will, it will most likely be boring, in order to keep the power level down, so per encounter seems like a happy medium.

The abilities would allow you to further exemplify the ideals you represent, and bring them forth unto others. For instance, an ability for Abstinence might be to allow an ally or yourself to gain immunity to poison, disease and effects that deal ability damage for 1 round, or against a single poison, disease or ability damaging effect. For greed, allowing the Paladin to fascinate an opponent or charm them.

I don't even really care what you do. But leaving it as this is, I would never play this class. Period. It would be boring, and altogether unfun, especially when I could be playing interesting classes like the Dreadnaught, Fencer or Bladeweaver, who actually give abilities, rather than passives, a few spells, and some smites per day.

Just my thoughts, take them as you will.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-30, 09:08 PM
Table has "Aura of Good" instead of Aura. I'm assuming your Paladins don't have alignment requirements.Fox'd.

I like the spell selection. Limited, but fitting. have you modified the divine spells? As it is, with the severely limited selection and the delayed progression, it might be a little too watered down. Between the two options, I'd give them access to higher level spells, since only having access to Courage and Glory domain spells fits so well.I've modified the spells-per-day somewhat. Also a couple mantles give increased spell access.

Aura - Can Paladin's be True Neutral? Would make an Aura more difficult.Yes, actually.

I liked the Mantles in the original version. Feels very much like a Diablo 2 Paladin, which I think is awesome. Will go over them soon.Mostly these are just standardization and list consolidation.

Smite still feels unimpressive. I think part of the problem is the low daily usage. Some possible alternatives would be changing it to one use per enemy per day, or X times per encounter, or having the bonus apply to all attacks in a round possibly requiring a Swift action to activate. Look at it more like a ToB Boost and I think it'll feel a lot more impressive.I'll consider it.

Unrelenting Conviction is pretty awesome, but seems a little weak for a lv 20 capstone. Feels more like a PrC capstone. While I don't think you should ascend or anything like that, some way to boost your defenses, or increase the power of your Mantles would make a good capstone.

I am a little concerned with going overboard with having hella mantles AND an awesome capstone.


You have five dead levels, evenly spaced out. Some sort of passive ability progression seems incredibly perfect, unless you feel that a) they do not need to get rid of the dead levels, or b) that d20R has more dead levels. Most d20r classes have dead levels at 3/6/9/12/15/18. They're pseudodead levels (you gain a feat on them) and they're instanced in that fashion to incentivize single classing.


If you were to use it, maybe some sort of alignment based abilities? The only ones that actively deal with an alignment so far are the Aura and Smite abilities. The mantles seem to sort of present more of the ideals of the alignments, or personal ideals based on non-alignment personality. I don't really like mechanical alignment, so I removed it in this version. One can champion something without having to field your alignment all the time.


The mantles are interesting, but most provide a simple passive benefit, and that is quite honestly not that interesting mechanically. You combine, them, and what do you have? A character that is quite flavorful to play, but mechanically boring. Hm. That is a good point.

jiriku
2010-09-30, 09:10 PM
Me likey. I especially like the mantle of faith system. Normally, it's rough trying to strike a balance between offering a steady progression of power (which requires you to restrict choice to ensure that each new ability is level-appropriate) and preserving freedom of choice and flexibility (which calls for menu options). Because all of the mantles scale quite a bit with level, you can choose any mantle at any level and still see your power grow as you advance.

I also like the system of falling and repenting. It actually makes it possible for a paladin to fall shot of his ideals many times and yet get back on track again -- which is the same experience that principled people have in real life.

MammonAzrael
2010-09-30, 09:11 PM
You have five dead levels, evenly spaced out. Some sort of passive ability progression seems incredibly perfect, unless you feel that a) they do not need to get rid of the dead levels, or b) that d20R has more dead levels.

The five levels are situated where you'd get feats. I think that's the logic. Not defending it, as I agree with you, feats do not fix that many dead levels.


Mantel ideas involving extra abilities...

YES! This is what I was going to suggest when I went over the Mantles. A good way to fill out the dead levels while not being too strong and helping define the character even more.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-30, 09:13 PM
YES! This is what I was going to suggest when I went over the Mantles. A good way to fill out the dead levels while not being too strong and helping define the character even more.

So if I were to implement something like this...

Alright, here's my basis: I switch Smite to per-encounter, keep the same number of uses. Mantle foci (which I don't have a name for yet) consume a smite use to gain some effect. What should some of these effects be?

Flickerdart
2010-09-30, 09:16 PM
Paladin with Aura of Neutrality? Yes!

MammonAzrael
2010-09-30, 09:20 PM
I am a little concerned with going overboard with having hella mantles AND an awesome capstone.

Fair enough, but if it isn't a truly tempting capstone, why wouldn't you just take a PrC that advanced mantles?


Most d20r classes have dead levels at 3/6/9/12/15/18. They're pseudodead levels (you gain a feat on them) and they're instanced in that fashion to incentivize single classing.

Thinking about that...it might be better to build dead levels like that at 4/8/12/16. Since you get extra feat for every four levels you stay in a class in d20r, this ensures that the feats fall in the dead levels. I mean, what if I went Warlord 1/Paladin 6? That 6th level of Paladin would be completely dead, as I would've gotten the feat a level previously.



As for the Mantles and abilities, I'll go over them soon and offer my suggestions...

unosarta
2010-09-30, 09:52 PM
So if I were to implement something like this...

Alright, here's my basis: I switch Smite to per-encounter, keep the same number of uses. Mantle foci (which I don't have a name for yet) consume a smite use to gain some effect. What should some of these effects be?

That actually sounds really good. Probably most would have individual effects.

Hm; just looking over a few:

Abstinence: As mentioned before, possible short (read; very short) immunity to poison/disease/ability score damage.
Alliance: Able to increase the powers of his mount in some way. Otherwise; if it is alliance in general, maybe some way to buff an ally?
Anarchy: Any extra smite damage you deal for X period of time becomes that much smite damage in d2s.
Audacity: The paladin can turn the fear a foe attempts to use against him back at that foe.
Authority: Maybe some sort of Command effect.
Bravado: Some sort of fear ability, based on intimidate.
Charity: Honestly, no idea. Pass.
Conflict: Extra attack for every opponent he hits? So, like, if he were to hit opponent A who is adjacent, he can then go and hit opponent B, even if he doesn't have any attacks left in the round.
Conviction: Maybe he gains Damage Reduction? An interesting way to handle it would be for the bypass to be an attack from a member of his faith.
Deceit: I have one question; what exactly does this have to do with courage, which is the default domain granted to the paladin? It doesn't really seem very courageous, especially with the description. Still, some sort of method of avoiding attacks or damage? Maybe he can ignore one attack that would reduce him to 0 or less, if he spends a smite, and can only use it once per encounter.
Diligence: Lifesense would be interesting. I don't really have any other ideas.
Discord: Illusion effects would be a nice bonus here.
Entropy: I get the image of a paladin who touches their opponent, and disassembles them, atom by atom. :smallbiggrin:
Freedom: Instead of being affected by a grapple attempt, they may move up to their base land speed? I am imagining someone who ducks and twists out of danger.
Grace: He may give a single ally within 30 feet improved evasion for a single attack?
Greed: Aforementioned charm or fascinate ability.
Honesty: I would say zone of truth, but that would likely be on the domain list anyway. Maybe something like, if an opponent uses bluff at anytime within 30 feet of you, and you tell its a lie, you gain a bonus against them by sacrificing a smite?
Honor: An opponent who tries to feint, trip, or flank him in combat takes damage and is knocked prone if he uses a smite.
Humility: True Seeing for a round?
Justice: Maybe something like, the paladin can stun an opponent that the paladin actively knows is running from the law, or has committed a crime. Or something along those lines.
Luck: Something like; for a number of rounds, the paladin can treat any 1 as a 20 on a d20.
Merciless: If they hit three times in successive rounds, they may force the opponent to make a fortitude save or lose/stun/die/etc.
Mercy: Everyone within 30 feet can only deal non-lethal, and only take nonlethal damage.
Patience: No ideas here.
Peace: By using a smite attempt, the paladin can force anyone affected by his aura to go to sleep, for X rounds. No save necessary (the aura already grants a save, and it is pretty low, so if they are affected, they will likely not make the save anyway).
Perseverance: Turn attacks back upon opponents?
Piety: Call down the wrath of his god?
Prudence: Allows him to replace his ally's armor class with his own? Maybe able to take attacks for allies.
Purity: Maybe the ability to strip away all illusions that affect one creature, as long as he knows with all certainty that they are evil. I don't really have anything for this one.
Redemption: Maybe something like, if he spends all of his lay on hands pool or some arbitrarily large number of healing points, you can force an opponent to make a will save, or change alignments. It would certainly bring up a lot of alignment arguments at a table. :smallwink:
Survival: Hm. Don't really know for this one.
Temperance: They may grant an ally an effect wherein one attack hits automatically, as long as you attack bonus is greater than or equal to the opponent's armor class minus 20.
Valor: Sounds awfully familiar to Audacity... Still, maybe something similar? Or, if an opponent attempts to use intimidate on the paladin, he can show them the visage of his angry god, and blind them for a couple of rounds.
Vengeance: Maybe something similar to redemption, but a Save or Die?
Zeal: Your attacks ignore damage reduction that is possessed by an evil creature for X rounds.

Of course, these are just suggestions.

Violet Octopus
2010-09-30, 10:51 PM
Nitpicking:
There's no definition in the writeup of where the paladin draws their orisons from. Presumably it's still the cleric list.

Unrelenting Conviction doesn't specify what happens if the Paladin is true neutral. It also doesn't clarify whether opposing alignment is diametric or not. If I'm LG, does it work against LE or just CE?

One possibility is having it work on creatures that differ from you on both alignment axes. NG would smite LN, LE, CN, CE; N would smite CG, LE, LG, CE; and LG would smite CE, NE, CN and N. Strange, but not much stranger than true neutral always having to pick an extreme alignment it's really opposed to.

Here's some ideas for the mantles unosarta didn't cover:

Charity: Expend smite to empower Lay on Hands, healing only. It would multiply out-of-combat healing by 1.5, but it's not like LoH is the best source of healing in the world. Alternately expend smite to remove certain conditions, especially disease, when you LoH.
Patience: Expend smite and do nothing as a standard action. Make an even more awesome attack in a later turn. Needs some way of preventing Paladins from just expending all their smites before a major encounter and OHKOing in turn 1 though.
Survival: Whenever you would take damage that would reduce you to below 0 HP, you may, as an immediate action, expend a smite to ignore X damage, where X scales with level.

the_archduke
2010-09-30, 11:58 PM
I for one was a huge fan of the Paladin 1.0. Version 2.0 feels off to me. Maybe it is all the casting. Didn't you describe the cleric as the holy caster and the paladin as the holy warrior? If you are going away from that idea, well, it is your system, but version 2.0 feels much less like a warrior and more like a hybrid warrior/caster.

Man that sounds very critical... I don't mean to be, as I have loved everything you have come up with in D20r, but Paladin 2.0 is leaving me underwhelmed. Maybe I am missing something, but the 1.0 mantles seemed to add more melee combat power than the 2.0 mantles do.

Just my 2cp, and keep on pumping out this awesome stuff.

MammonAzrael
2010-10-01, 01:06 AM
Mantles of Faith

Abstinence - I like that this applies to potions, as that may actually have some ramifications in game, without the DM having to stretch or do something absurd. Hard to evaluate the spell access as we don't have the Domains yet, but seems solid enough. The Aura feels good, though what about things that deal ability damage that don't grant saves? Maybe instead it reduces ability damage? Atonement Method is fitting. As for an additional ability, perhaps a Neutralize Poison or Restoration like ability, or maybe something that prevents a poison/disease/ability damage and forces it on the creature delivering the attack. You know, a taste of their own medicine.
Alliance - This seems way stronger as a Mantle. I can't say for sure since I don't know the rules on a Companion, but gaining an extra character...O.o The extra ability should be some type of boost for your mount. As for the Atonement...Do they just have to seek resurrection, or do that have to successfully raise the creature?
Anarchy - Powerful, but not too much so I suspect. Everyone in the party will love throwing all the extra dice though! Though it could probably use a rules example of If an ally attacks with a Greatsword he rolls 2d6 twice and takes the higher of each for damage. He does not roll 4d6 and select the highest two. As for the special ability....maxing out a damage roll might be too powerful, but having the ability apply to, say, attack rolls might be good.
Audacity - The atonement method is fitting, but it seems harder than others. Not sure what a fitting ability for it would be...possibly inspiring fear in others, or giving allies a morale boost as a display of courage and...audacity.
Authority - Good, but potentially game-changing. By far it feels the most aggressive thus far, and a very violent atonement method, which could make for some pretty big friction in a game. For an extra ability, dictating a die roll seems to fit, turning something into a natural 20, or a natural 1. Commanding an opponent seems to work too.
Bravado - Seems a lot like Audacity. Can a Paladin become a Master in Intimidate with this Mantle? Some type of boost to Intimidate, like allowing it to affect multiple enemies, enemies normally immune to fear effects, or increasing the effect of Intimidate seem to fit best.
Charity - Must he give his tithe every time he has the opportunity? Once a level? Why does he become a Master in Diplomacy instead of just "leveling up" like Bravado does with Intimidate? In fact, why does being charitable increase his diplomacy at all? Doesn't really seem to fit...though I'm not sure what does. It might work better as a Vow-of-Poverty-lite, since you're giving up treasure.
Conflict - This mantle seems like it should be lost if the Paladin solved a conflict through diplomacy, peace, or compromise. Also, great excuse for starting a giant bar fight. :smallbiggrin: the ability could grant a rage-like ability, or cause opponents to attack one another.
Conviction - Seems like the only way the paladin would lose this mantle is if the DM forced the issue, which shouldn't be the case. At 10th level attacks should probably be considered Cold Iron instead of Lawful. The 20th level seems a bit weak since he'll be bypassing most DR at that point anyways. Not sure what to do about that though. The granted ability could bypass all DR for a round, or grant DR to the Paladin.
Deceit - Seems a bit convoluted. Additionally, it doesn't really feel deceitful, just cautious. granted ability could be some type of illusion or displacement effect. The atonement method, while fitting with the fluff you provided, feels a little excessively goofy.
Diligence - Given the abilities, if might make more sense if lost his abilities if he was taken by surprise, or attacked while flat-footed, or springs a trap.
Discord - To bring it more in line with Bravado, have the confusion ability be the granted ability. Additionally, I'm not sure if the skill rolls should dictate whether they loose their mantle, since it is literally something they cannot control. perhaps if he tries to make peace between two parties, or is caught in a lie (in addition to telling the whole truth).
Entropy - Good mantle. The ability screams "inflict negative levels."Freedom - Solid Mantle. The ability could e a Freedom of Movement, Mind Blank, or some way to break a mental compulsion.
Grace - Why reflex saves? an ability could be granting temp HP, or a way to continue to act in negative hit points.
Greed - The ability should be...I dunno, something that helps compensate for sacrificing 20% of his wealth, which is pretty significant.
Honesty - Why the Moon Domain? Can't you create your own Truth domain? The ability could be some type of lie detection or Zone of Truth or the ability to see through illusions.
Honor - This mantle seems really good, and not sacrificing too much since he can just freely Power Attack like crazy. Punishing an opponent who uses "unhonorable" tactics in combat seems like a solid use of an ability.
Humility - I'm not really sure how being humble grants bonuses against illusion and compulsion effects.
Justice - The associating with lawbreakers seems dangerously close to the trap of relying on your teammates for your class abilities. As OotS pointed out, not good. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) Having Justice grant the Might domain is pretty funny though. Perhaps some ability that prevents enemies from fleeing?
Luck - Seems pretty decent. ability could be granting a reroll to an ally.
Merciless - I think it would be more fitting, and separate it from Entropy a bit more, if he lost the mantle from non-lethal damage or from allowing an enemy to flee or surrender. The atonement method seems a little too harsh, but only a little. The ability could deal extra damage to a foe below a certain hp, or grant an additional attack.
Mercy - The ability should let him deal non-lethal damage to things normally immune to non-lethal damage. Or a way to knock out an opponent with a single attack.
Patience - A pretty noticeable combat handicap for some distinctly out-of-combat, primarily flavor-related, abilities. And the atonement method is staying inactive for nearly the entirety of most combats. seems like this could use some more relevant abilities...or perhaps just the smite ability does something in combat, like dazing a foe or forcing them to wait or....something.
Peace - Good Mantle, an ability would be some type of effect that forcibly calmed the target, or made it stop fighting somehow.
Perseverance - The methods of losing this mantle seem a bit loose and up to interpertation. I think the SR would make a fine Smite ability. The atonement method seems a little unrealistic.
Piety - 5 hours seems excessive. Especially since he gains no benefit from his own aura. The ability bonus could be automatically succeeding on a saving throw, countering a spell.
Prudence - What constitutes great danger? And ability could be defending an ally, or automatically negating an attack.
Purity - Should probably be re flavored so he has to uphold the purity of his alignment, not just good. And as such should probably grant the appropriate alignment's domain. (They can also take this mantle twice, once for each alignment type they have.)
Redemption - should probably be changed from erring in the name of good to erring int he name of their God. As for an ability...maybe something that punishes those that go against the tenants of the paladin's faith? Or something that tries to convert them, even if only temporarily?
Survival - thematically this seems a lot like Deceit, though better. Once again an aura he gains no advantage from though, which seems really contradictory to the theme of the mantle. The ability could divert healing from an enemy to himself? And the atonement method is really nasty for a party...does it count the member dropping into negative HP?
Temperance - Seems a lot like patience, except even worse. And why does Temperance grant a bonus to ranged attacks? It just doesn't make sense.
Valor - Flavor should be changed to "stand as a example of his faith and God. Also, it grants the same bonus as Audacity...
Vengeance - Smite deals double the damage to a member of an opposing faith?
Zeal - The ability should be some offensive way to focus on a single combatant, something that punishes them for attacking anyone one else, or attack you with anything but a melee attack.


I noticed that a lot of the Mantles granted a divine bonus, and some granted a sacred bonus. Those should probably be combined. Additionally all the divine auras to saves do diddly for the Paladin, as his Divine Grace ability doesn't stack. Finally the granted domains could be cleared up, as some grant the domain's ability, and some don't. Why the difference? I feel like a lot of these Mantles should be reworked now that you're using Hero Value.

Given your "Regarding Mantles of Faith" blurb...do Mantles still have alignment requirements or is that just a holdover?

Metamantle Feats

Surge of Faith - this would be a lot better if you got access to more than 4th level spells. As it is, it is uninspiring. Boosting it by your Hero Value or double the spell slot...well, that is much more impressive (though probably a little too much).
Surge of Glory - This seems better than Surge of Faith in nearly every respect. And still not something I'm sure I'd be happy taking.
Surge of Grandeur - Again, sadly uninspiring.


These might be more impressive if they were usable more than once a day, or ate X amount of Smite usages per combat. And would really help if they could be used as an immediate action, as many of the Auras are defensive in nature.

Fax Celestis
2010-10-01, 08:20 AM
I'll reply to the rest of it later, but I wanted to point out that we do know what's in the domains as I did the cleric already.

Milskidasith
2010-10-01, 08:38 AM
Quick read through (since I don't have a ton of time at the moment):

All of the mantles are massively too strict and, in some cases (authority), cause you to fall for doing things that seem like they should make sense, and then require utterly absurd ways to atone. As an example, from authority... if you obey your own king, and he isn't somebody in service of the same god as you, then you have to kill him or disobey every law in the kingdom. That's... really, really silly, and the wording shows no grey area, at all.

Fax Celestis
2010-10-01, 09:10 AM
Really? Most of the mantles' fall/atone text remained unchanged from the original version (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33551).

Milskidasith
2010-10-01, 10:17 AM
Really? Most of the mantles' fall/atone text remained unchanged from the original version (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33551).

Which I didn't post in, and so I believe is equally absurd.

Anything that says "falls if they ever" should be removed and made into something along the lines of "if they, with other options available, egregiously and intentionally do X action to an extreme degree." Certain things could still be "if they ever" (commit strong opposite alignment acts, kill for no reason if you have a pacificstic mantle, break certain vows that presumably are never necessary [abstinance]), but you shouldn't fall for following the law where the authorities don't share your god, or have to commit regicide to atone, which is, while an extreme example, supported by the black-and-white way this is worded and very anti-authority. Another one is conviction; it prevents you from ever stopping corruption in your own church, which seems crazy.

EDIT: Also, the atonement's should be... easier, or at least more party friendly. Higher CR fights alone, high authority missions for your god with no pay, etc. are not particularly fun for the rest of the party.

Gorgondantess
2010-10-01, 11:12 AM
I agree with Milsk: the mantles are brutal.
But y'know what? That's fine. The Paladin is supposed to be a badass holy warrior with a very strict code. What seems to happen so much though is that people remember the "holy warrior with a strict code", but they forget the first part: badass. The code isn't flavor- it's balance. If you're going to give the paladin a strict code, then you'd better make it damn well worth it. See my paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160730) (who borrowed your bard spell progression:smallbiggrin:), for example- the code is very strict, but in return, the paladin is a high tier 3 warrior.
Your paladin is a mid-low tier 4. Granted, it's better than the WotC paladin, but if you're going to have such a strict code, give it some mechanical benefits to make it worth it.

Milskidasith
2010-10-01, 11:49 AM
I agree with Milsk: the mantles are brutal.
But y'know what? That's fine. The Paladin is supposed to be a badass holy warrior with a very strict code. What seems to happen so much though is that people remember the "holy warrior with a strict code", but they forget the first part: badass. The code isn't flavor- it's balance. If you're going to give the paladin a strict code, then you'd better make it damn well worth it. See my paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160730) (who borrowed your bard spell progression:smallbiggrin:), for example- the code is very strict, but in return, the paladin is a high tier 3 warrior.
Your paladin is a mid-low tier 4. Granted, it's better than the WotC paladin, but if you're going to have such a strict code, give it some mechanical benefits to make it worth it.

The mantles aren't so much strict as they are impossible to reasonably follow, and with atonements that are equally impossible to follow and/or include things that massively hinder the party. For instance, Authority is impossible to follow unless every lawmaker wherever you go makes the laws follows your god. There are plenty of the "do not influence/be influenced by position" type stuff as well; just being a badass warrior influences all those around you, so you'd fall... for being a badass warrior. As for the atonement's... again, solo combat, service to a nobody for a month, massive quests with no reward, being forced to get a massive pile of gold and hoard it, randomly murdering somebody for no reason in the middle of a public area, etc. are all impossible to do in any reasonable party without significantly hindering them.

Tael
2010-10-01, 12:22 PM
Well I'll try and give some examples of ridiculous Mantles:

Alliance is harsh, but the atonement isn't too hard, so it's passable.

Anarchy needs to clarify what "willingly submit" means. Also, what is a position of authority? Is someone who can smack you down in a fight in a position of authority?

I think we've covered how stupid Authority is.

Bravado:

He loses all aspects of this mantle if he fails an Intimidate check, becomes frightened, shaken, or panicked, or smites a creature that is unaffected by his smite attack.
This is ridiculous. It basically requires that you never make a hard intimidate check, and you take the Audacity mantle, and even then falling is relatively easy. Atonement also should not depend on how well you optimize. This could either be easy or hard.

Charity is fine, but too weak. 20% of WBL is a lot. Also, add a clause that says that don't have to donate if they're stuck in alternate dimension or something. You fall, no matter what is stupid.

Conflict is weak and has a really easy fall. I would make it so a Paladin can never surrender.

Deceit doesn't make much sense flavor-wise

Diligence is okay, but I would word it differently.

Discord is kind of stupid. I mean, what is to stop you from just telling random people bluffs to atone? But I guess what you have a 1 in 20 chance of losing it, atonement has to be easy.

more to come.

Esser-Z
2010-10-01, 12:50 PM
Which I didn't post in, and so I believe is equally absurd.

Anything that says "falls if they ever" should be removed and made into something along the lines of "if they, with other options available, egregiously and intentionally do X action to an extreme degree." Certain things could still be "if they ever" (commit strong opposite alignment acts, kill for no reason if you have a pacificstic mantle, break certain vows that presumably are never necessary [abstinance]), but you shouldn't fall for following the law where the authorities don't share your god, or have to commit regicide to atone, which is, while an extreme example, supported by the black-and-white way this is worded and very anti-authority. Another one is conviction; it prevents you from ever stopping corruption in your own church, which seems crazy.

EDIT: Also, the atonement's should be... easier, or at least more party friendly. Higher CR fights alone, high authority missions for your god with no pay, etc. are not particularly fun for the rest of the party.
I absolutely agree with this based on falling and redemption.

Beyond that, liking it a lot. Woooo cha based. :smalltongue:

On more detailed reading, I do think the mantles could use a bit more work, beyond just the fall conditions, but the fall conditions are the biggest thing. Much too restrictive, moreso than the Paladin's code ever was before, and that's no good.

Morty
2010-10-01, 02:20 PM
On the whole, I have to agree that the mantles are too restrictive. Either the conditions must be loosened or the paladin must only lose the effect of the mantle after a gross, repeated or otherwise egregious violation of the oath.

Istari
2010-10-01, 02:43 PM
I think alot of these complaints are solved if a clause is added that the DM is expected to make reasonable exceptions to the mantles in abnormal circumstances

Milskidasith
2010-10-01, 02:51 PM
I think alot of these complaints are solved if a clause is added that the DM is expected to make reasonable exceptions to the mantles in abnormal circumstances

Uhh... the circumstances don't have to be abnormal to be forced to break these, or for the atonements to be nuts. "Kill somebody publicly for a slight" is pretty clear cut as an atonement, and "cannot obey anybody who isn't a member of your church" is both odd for an authority domain's requirements, and really makes basically every situation impossible.

They need to be completely reworded, at the least, both to fit the flavor and to not be so incredibly restrictive with such incredibly anti-party atonements.

Gorgondantess
2010-10-01, 06:37 PM
The mantles aren't so much strict as they are impossible to reasonably follow, and with atonements that are equally impossible to follow and/or include things that massively hinder the party. For instance, Authority is impossible to follow unless every lawmaker wherever you go makes the laws follows your god. There are plenty of the "do not influence/be influenced by position" type stuff as well; just being a badass warrior influences all those around you, so you'd fall... for being a badass warrior. As for the atonement's... again, solo combat, service to a nobody for a month, massive quests with no reward, being forced to get a massive pile of gold and hoard it, randomly murdering somebody for no reason in the middle of a public area, etc. are all impossible to do in any reasonable party without significantly hindering them.

I disagree: it's quite possible. It doesn't mean "you can't follow the laws!" That would be silly- we follow the laws every day. What it means is you can't follow the laws if you disagree with them, and people break the law in D&D all the time- especially chaotic evil characters, who are the only ones who would likely break the laws of a good empire, as a chaotic good would likely usually agree with the law. A lawful or good paladin wouldn't take that mantle, as it's an unlawful/nongood mantle to take.
It just needs to be really badass to justify such a stringent requirement.:smallbiggrin:

Milskidasith
2010-10-01, 10:51 PM
I disagree: it's quite possible. It doesn't mean "you can't follow the laws!" That would be silly- we follow the laws every day. What it means is you can't follow the laws if you disagree with them, and people break the law in D&D all the time- especially chaotic evil characters, who are the only ones who would likely break the laws of a good empire, as a chaotic good would likely usually agree with the law. A lawful or good paladin wouldn't take that mantle, as it's an unlawful/nongood mantle to take.
It just needs to be really badass to justify such a stringent requirement.:smallbiggrin:

Authority sounds *very* lawful to me, and it actively encourages subverting any law not given by somebody who follows your god. And yes, having to commit regicide or routinely break laws you disagree with is rather non lawful and crazy.

Basically, every one of these mantles is less "strict" and more "extremist." The fact there are no exceptions means, even with a liberal interpretation (that following laws given by an authority that you shouldn't be respecting, but you'd follow anyway, isn't submitting), following any law you don't agree with because the consequences aren't worth the benefit you get is breaking the mantle... and of course, the fact that you are required to commit murder on the authority you followed is pretty extreme as well.

Again, the atonements are nearly all completely anti group dynamic, and the mantles themselves require you to, rather than tread a careful path based on your faith, get really lucky (plenty of "no nat 1s, no failings), act completely insane due to the various absurd restrictions you have, and commit various acts that are completely counterproductive to the party when you fall (and you will fall. Repeatedly. Or you'll get killed following these mantles in any situation where you aren't the stronger than the group of people following even the lawful good mantles would tick off.)

EDIT: Again, what's even worse than the strict requirements is the atonements; practically none of them, save maybe rezzing your mount, are anything but an active hinderance to a party dynamic, completely absurd (publicly kill somebody for a slight? Even CE doesn't do that for long without getting murdered), requires an act of great hypocrisy (authority requiring you to kill authority figures), are completely trivial (roll a natural 20 on a bluff check!), or are a combination of the three. Even some of the mantles (the one that requires you to always lie about everything, being unable to associate with anybody who breaks laws, etc) are actively anti-your allies, so... yeah.

Ziegander
2010-10-01, 10:57 PM
This is why when I scrapped the Knight's code of conduct, but felt that it should still have some semblance of a presence I used a set of circumstances in which if you do something chivalrous you get a bonus, instead of getting a penalty for doing something not chivalrous. For me it saved a lot of grief.

MammonAzrael
2010-10-01, 11:27 PM
milskidasith - Ok then...do you have suggestions? How would you right up some of these restriction? You seem to have some pretty clear ideas on what you'd like to see, and your arguments are decent enough. For example, how would you write the Authority mantle?

Milskidasith
2010-10-01, 11:58 PM
milskidasith - Ok then...do you have suggestions? How would you right up some of these restriction? You seem to have some pretty clear ideas on what you'd like to see, and your arguments are decent enough. For example, how would you write the Authority mantle?

The authority mantle would probably be changed to something like this:

"You respect the authority of your god, and know that it is just even in the face of other authority. If you egregiously violate the laws of your god due to local laws in a situation you have other choices, you may fall."

"Atonement: Publicly break the law you feel is unjust, or another similar law (if publicly breaking it would be infeasible), as a demonstration."

the_archduke
2010-10-02, 05:28 PM
Okay, I am going to try to be more helpful now.

If a mantle grants a cleric domain to a paladin along with its granted power, does the paladin gain only the basic granted power, or does he get all of the level upgrades?

Fax Celestis
2010-10-04, 05:38 PM
All of the mantles are massively too strict and, in some cases (authority), cause you to fall for doing things that seem like they should make sense, and then require utterly absurd ways to atone. As an example, from authority... if you obey your own king, and he isn't somebody in service of the same god as you, then you have to kill him or disobey every law in the kingdom. That's... really, really silly, and the wording shows no grey area, at all.Okay, so I need to redo the fluff for the mantles. I'll do that when I add in the smite/mantle powers. Are the mechanics of the mantles themselves okay?


If a mantle grants a cleric domain to a paladin along with its granted power, does the paladin gain only the basic granted power, or does he get all of the level upgrades?Just the granted power.