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Zaydos
2010-10-02, 04:21 PM
Okay on this thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170472 I mentioned the idea of a game where the PCs were a unit of devils in the Blood War; playing actual Baatezu and going through the stages of promotion. Since it started to derail that thread I've decided to start a thread asking if anybody has any advice/ideas on how that would work.

Also just a general interest check before I decide whether to actually start a recruitment thread.

Coidzor
2010-10-02, 04:50 PM
From the other thread originally, cut and pasted.

Re: Game where you're devils in the bloodwar and advancing your forms and de-leveling, sounds potentially quite fun.

A weak-sauce idea, I know, but you could start them off as fiendish versions of what they were in life, partially deleveled (say, they were higher level when they died but now they've only got, say 4-6 levels from the prior life) already to reflect their essence being cast off and repurposed, and then have them steadily turn into more and more devilish forms as their levels get burned to fuel the transformation further. And you'd avoid the problems of casters breaking the game because they'd never break the level 8-10ish cap where they really outpace the rest...until you were already fairly far in, prossibly all the way into the endgame.

Depending upon the roleplayers of the group, could even have a steady loss of prior memories and experience which gave them their edge originally as they become more combat-capable and dependent on their current form for power... One of my friends was kicking around an idea where the devils had been experimenting on the souls of guys who died with some levels beneath their belt, basically putting them into a form that served as a chassis for all those built up levels rather than wasting them by making them into the oozes (his ears perked up when I mentioned the savage species rituals), but having them basically have their souls mucked around with so that they'd think they were still alive rather than immediately try to desert and flee from the blood war...

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 05:02 PM
Hmm...

Well the de-leveling I originally suggested was loss of levels you had gained in the most recent devil form. But the idea of past life memories resurfacing and/or being forgotten is also a good one.

Maybe start you off as some type of least devil (Spine Devil or Legion Devil) with 3 levels have you upgrade to bearded devil with 2, and then Steel Devil with 1 (skipping the non-Baatezu since the reason they aren't Baatezu is that they're not part of the hierarchy, although whoever wrote the chart didn't get that memo).

LOTRfan
2010-10-02, 05:08 PM
Yeah, that was sort of annoying. Besides, Imps have their own hierarchy, don't they? I mean, there's four different kinds of them, if you count the ones in the Fiend Folio. Also, since Erinyes are descendants of fallen Angels and have children of their own, and the fact that Fiendish Codex said other devils cannot advance into Erinyes form, shouldn't they not be a player option?

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 05:10 PM
You're right erinyes would not be player options. Which ones would be would depend upon which ended up more important balance or flavor.

Edit: Also might make each player choose a patron Lord of the 9 and get extra stuff based on that to further differentiate themselves.

MarkusWolfe
2010-10-02, 05:13 PM
Hmm...

Well the de-leveling I originally suggested was loss of levels you had gained in the most recent devil form. But the idea of past life memories resurfacing and/or being forgotten is also a good one.

Maybe start you off as some type of least devil (Spine Devil or Legion Devil) with 3 levels have you upgrade to bearded devil with 2, and then Steel Devil with 1 (skipping the non-Baatezu since the reason they aren't Baatezu is that they're not part of the hierarchy, although whoever wrote the chart didn't get that memo).

Don't forget the Orthons.

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 05:17 PM
Well unless I decide to skip a few stages, Orthons or osyluths would be the 6th stage. With harvester/pain devils as 4th, and amnizu as 5th, and Pit Fiends as 12th.

Hat-Trick
2010-10-02, 05:18 PM
Consider me interested. Instead of deleveling, you could gestalt the devil to one side and the class to the other. The devil wouldn't advance until the proper ECl was reached for the next level, or some such.

LOTRfan
2010-10-02, 05:19 PM
Here's a list of Baatezu I found (I think they're all in 3.5e, not sure):

Advespa
Amnizu
Ayperobos
Barbazu ("Bearded Devil")
Brachina ("Pleasure Devil")
Cornugon ("Horned Devil")
Dogai ("Assassin Devil")
Erinyes
Excruciarch ("Pain Devil")
Falxugon ("Harvester Devil")
Gelugon ("Ice Devil")
Ghargatula
Hamatula ("Barbed Devil")
Kocrachon
Lemure
Logokron
Malebranche
Merregon ("Legion Devil")
Narzugon
Nupperibo
Orthon
Osyluth ("Bone Devil")
Paeliryon
Pit Fiend
Spinagon ("Spined Devil")
Xerfilstyx
This is just my suggestion, but I'd definitely remove the following from player characters: Nupperibos, Lemures (duh), Erinyes, Xerfilstyxes, and Brachinas.

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 05:25 PM
Advespa
Ayperobos
Ghargatula
Kocrachon

Those four are not in the FCII list, or at least not under those names.

Other ones that wouldn't be appropriate are Malebranche (only available via demotion) and Pleasure Devils (only available via promotion of Erinyes).

One question is should I have all the PCs always be the same kind of devil or the same rank?


Consider me interested. Instead of deleveling, you could gestalt the devil to one side and the class to the other. The devil wouldn't advance until the proper ECl was reached for the next level, or some such.

The problem there is most devils lack ECL; and (the lesser problem) you end up playing the class more than the devil.

MarkusWolfe
2010-10-02, 05:28 PM
Advespa
Ayperobos
Ghargatula
Kocrachon

Those four are not in the FCII list, or at least not under those names.

Other ones that wouldn't be appropriate are Malebranche (only available via demotion) and Pleasure Devils (only available via promotion of Erinyes).

One question is should I have all the PCs always be the same kind of devil or the same rank?

Well, if it's possible, they should always be a devil more suited to their player class. For example, when the Barbarian's an orthon, you would want to have the wizard as........as.........

Blast it. I can't think of any Devils who would benefit being a caster.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-02, 05:32 PM
I love the idea and I would play in a heartbeat, the problem I see is that it will really difficult to balance the party, as Devils have an strict power hierarchy, if any player wanted to be different from any other party member the would have to advance to the same kind of Devil.

The other option I see is all playing OlescamoGorgonDantress Monster class but being resticted to devils... the problem is that I have only see the class for Pit-fiends, Cornugons, Kythons & Erynes...

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 05:37 PM
One option would be CR as ECL... it's not the best, but it gives some measuring stick. Casters, though, are screwed.

LOTRfan
2010-10-02, 05:37 PM
Advespa
Ayperobos
Ghargatula
Kocrachon

Those four are not in the FCII list, or at least not under those names.

Yeah, I wasn't sure if they were all updated or not. Ayperobos wouldn't make a good player character anyway, considering they're a bunch of creatures in a swarm. If you are interested, though, Ghargatula are dinodevils, and Kocrachon are torturer bugs.


Other ones that wouldn't be appropriate are Malebranche (only available via demotion) and Pleasure Devils (only available via promotion of Erinyes).

Brachinas are Pleasure Devils. I agree with the Malebranche's shouldn't be player characters, but I don't think players should know that. You know, just to give them something to fear for failure. :smallamused:

I'd say that if there are two or more devils that are equal in rank, let the players choose. Its fun to give 'em a little variety.

EDIT: Oh, and Ghargatulas and Kocrachons are from Book of Vile Darkness, so it turns out that they were all updated to at least 3e, if not 3.5

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-02, 05:39 PM
I would be interesting to play with CR as ECL, it might work, since as a quick check to the SRD all devils have similar HD to their CR (usually one higher or lower)

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 05:46 PM
Yeah, the table had Ayperobos as Ayperobos swarm (and not listed as part of the hierarchy/as a baatezu), and misspelled Ghargatula. Kocrachon doesn't seem to be recognized by FCII though.

And while CR as ECL will wreak havoc with what monsters can do in relation to PCs (devils have more tricks and such than PCs of that level) it will at least maintain a semblance of party balance.

LOTRfan
2010-10-02, 05:50 PM
I'd make fun of the editors for that slip, but that is pretty hard to spell, and I've seen worse errors...

As for the Kocrachon, that is pretty odd. Have the Pain Devils fully replaced them, then?

EDIT: I doubt a swarm would have a place in the devil hierarchy, but I am pretty sure they have the Baatezu subtype in the entry.

That is wierd, though. So, is the embryonic Ayperobos inside the wierd embryonic devil-sac thing be actual size? :smallconfused:

Coidzor
2010-10-02, 06:12 PM
^: Swarms seem more like they'd be used as shock troops to soften up enemies than anything else, really. Since they are hard to kill, depending upon the size of the critters making up a swarm anyway.
And while CR as ECL will wreak havoc with what monsters can do in relation to PCs (devils have more tricks and such than PCs of that level) it will at least maintain a semblance of party balance.

Well, the alternative is going out and determining your own tiers for the various fiends you'll be using and that they can come into contact with based upon a personal calculus of their abilities.

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 06:17 PM
EDIT: I doubt a swarm would have a place in the devil hierarchy, but I am pretty sure they have the Baatezu subtype in the entry.

That is wierd, though. So, is the embryonic Ayperobos inside the wierd embryonic devil-sac thing be actual size? :smallconfused:

They have the Baatezu subtype... yet... I blame fluff writers not bothering to check what Baatezu really were.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-02, 06:20 PM
One thing that might bear mentioning is the gear, I assume that not all devils are assumed to have NPC gear in their MM entry or do they? because as some of the fighter 20 vs wizard 13 Gear is a great deal of the power of many if not all characters

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 06:23 PM
The CR as kind of ECL was for intra-party balance. Elite stats give +1 CR and gear can give +0 to 2 CR according to the MM.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-02, 06:29 PM
I see, how would that interact with the ECL as CR? for example one could play a Bone devil with gear in a party with an Ice devil without gear for example?

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 06:31 PM
Hmm, well balancing that would be an interesting thing to try. There's a second problem too, in the very nature of LE which says a gelugon can order an osyluth around.

That's exactly why I started this instead of a recruitment thread to find out these kinks before hand.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-02, 06:35 PM
The way I see to side-step this problem is probably asking the players to play nicely and don't try to abuse their powers if they advance in hierarchy compared to other players. Ot having an NPC cornugo giving simle direct orders* that all the members of the party must abide.


*More than orders, objective to leave the players a bit of freedom while working towards that objectives.

Hat-Trick
2010-10-02, 06:42 PM
Or possibly keep everyone on the same level in the bureaucratic ladder, even if they aren't the same type of devil. Maybe the devils decided not to advance, but are too powerful to treat them as anything lower than the highest member in the group.

Coidzor
2010-10-02, 06:43 PM
Hmm, well balancing that would be an interesting thing to try. There's a second problem too, in the very nature of LE which says a gelugon can order an osyluth around.

That's exactly why I started this instead of a recruitment thread to find out these kinks before hand.

I think this is self-regulating though. The players that attempt to abuse this sort of thing may very well find themselves the low man on the totem pole sooner than they might think, and they should all be aware of this...

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 06:48 PM
I think if I did this I'd have to keep everybody on the same hierarchy ranking; the problem there being that only 1 or 2 devils exist for each level.

So beyond gear, and ability score array; what else could I give them to increase diversity while maintaining balance?

I'm thinking 1 or 2 class levels, and maybe allowing a gelugon/wizard 1 to have better casting than a 1st level wizard (to make spellcasters still somewhat viable), maybe modifying it to be similar to martial initiators (not identical) or how the monster classes thread did for some of the classes like Illithid.

Also maybe another ability based upon home layer/diabolic patron. A devil serving Mephistopholes might get the ability to call hellfire 1/day and one serving Levistus might get improved resistance to cold and immunity to the effects of the river Styx.

Coidzor
2010-10-02, 06:49 PM
Well, there's always restructuring the hierarchy somewhat. Maybe "advanced" versions of certain devils exist that are higher in the hierarchy than normal examples of their type?

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 06:52 PM
Well in keeping with the diabolic world view even the best gelugon is below a cornugon (which is weird, since 2e it was the other way around), but maybe a 1 tier of flexibility might be allowed since sometimes devils do refuse promotion to keep the skills and abilities they have learned.

Also how does the sound of your diabolic patron giving you certain extra abilities sound?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-02, 06:55 PM
I like the idea, and tying it to the patron is great, i thinking that if your patron is Bel you would probably recieve IDK an stance or manouber? (I recall seeing one diabolic discipline somewhere in the forum)

Hat-Trick
2010-10-02, 06:55 PM
I'd like to know what kind of things patrons would grant, not to mention knowing more about the patron in general, as my knowledge is lacking.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-02, 06:57 PM
I would think the Lord of the Nine

So Bel, Mammon, Glasya, Mephistophales, Asmodeous, and the other 5 wose names I don't remember cause they arent aswesome enough (or I am not sure if they are Demon Lord or Dukes)

Hat-Trick
2010-10-02, 06:58 PM
Yeah, but where do I get more information on them?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-02, 07:01 PM
Yeah, but where do I get more information on them?

Fiendish Codex II Yet more archfiends for the WotC official info, there is the 9-part PDF by Dicefreaks Gates of Hell, and IIRC a poster made a good if humorous explanation on them in the Asmodeous thread

LOTRfan
2010-10-02, 07:13 PM
Just a some fiendish equipment I found in savage species (the infernal ones might be useful in a diabolic campaign):

Mundane Weapons

Barbed Chains- these infernal weapons are forged by Kytons and used by torturers.

Chain Lash: a chain the works as either a double weapon or a reach weapon. It can also trip or disarm foes.

Howler Javelin- these javelins break when they hit their targets, giving them a penalty on all attacks. Removing the shards cause damage. Yeah, I know Howlers are chaotic evil, but making these weapons give a better incentive to kill them, no?

Magic Armor
Kyton Armor- worn by devils, it not only offers protection but also allows them to emulate the chain devil's ability to animate chains.

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 10:45 PM
Well I'm planning on mix matching 2e, 1e, and 3.X fluff; but for the most part your patrons would be lords of the 9, or (if you're a cleric) LE gods, maybe some of the 1e Dukes of Hell as well.

For example (these are not final but rough examples):
Bel: You serve Bel, Lord of the 1st, and General of Avernus. You add you full hit dice from being a devil, instead of 1/2, to your level in any martial initiator class for determining your initiator level and highest level maneuvers known. You also gain Martial Study as a bonus feat.

Dispater: You serve Dispater the Iron Lord, Lord of the 2nd. You may ignore the hardness of objects when making sunder attempts and increase the threat range of any weapons you wield by +1. Any weapon you wield has its enhancement bonus increased by 2 and deals damage as the metal type of your choice.

Mephistopholes: You serve Mephistopholes the Lord of the 8th. You may use Hellfire as the spell once per day per 3 hit dice. In addition 3/day when you teleport you create a burst of flame at the location you left and the location you appear at dealing Xd8+Y damage, where X is your hit dice and Y is your Charisma score.

These are examples and would need some balancing work of course.

Hat-Trick
2010-10-03, 12:21 AM
Interesting. I looked over the devils in the MM and am very interested in the hellcat, but it isn't a Baatezu. In fact most of the ones I find interesting won't be available until late or aren't Baatezu. At least in the MM. I'll expand my learning.

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 12:24 AM
What makes the baatezu interesting is the several layers of fluff they have, the contradictory creation myths for their lords (even the baatezu don't know which is true), and their society. Then again being a hyper intelligent fiend that can teleport is just plain fun. I will note hellcat is pretty sweet, now if only I could get one as a famliar in some game.

Hat-Trick
2010-10-03, 12:35 AM
More of a cohort, familiars are more of a sit on the shoulder and look cool/adorable/menacing.

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 12:37 AM
More of a cohort, familiars are more of a sit on the shoulder and look cool/adorable/menacing.

Worg, winter wolf, griffin; all available as familiars with Complete Warrior. You can have a familiar that wades into combat for you; it's awesome.

Edit: Back on the actual topic, how did those abilities look?

Hat-Trick
2010-10-03, 12:53 AM
My sense of balance isn't exactly reputable, but they seem interesting. You may want to either make more choices than just one each because not all characters can really use martial initiator boosts or might find sundering completely suboptimal for their archetype. Going with the Hellcat, I was thinking about a forward scout/ambusher/flanker, probably following Bel, but unless I went swordsage, I would gain nothing for my concept.

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 01:04 AM
Well ideally there would be 9 choices (one for each Lord of the 9), some (2-4) clerical ones (or a single cleric one, a favored soul one, and a paladin one), and maybe one for Amon, Bael, Belial (no longer actually a lord having let his daughter Fernia take over), Hutijin, and Titivilus (that's just 1e's MMII) which would give a fair number of options. Although I'm thinking about not making Asmodeus an option at the beginning.

Hat-Trick
2010-10-03, 01:11 AM
Yeah, but that won't help a caster or non-initiator with Bel as a patron.

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 01:28 AM
Well fluff-wise most casters would be likely to follow... anybody but Bel. Also there's a limit to how many options each could be given simply based upon the sheer amount of homebrew it would involve. To give everybody 4 options means a minimum of 36 abilities to be created and balanced against each other.

Although on that note Dispater is also fairly martial and more related to skill than Bel so the ability I listed for Bel probably works best for Dispater with Bel giving something like limited access to a less Chaotic version of Barbarian's Rage or a flat bonus to Strength.

Edit: Also the bonus martial study feat is still useful and assuming the CR = initiator applied for Martial Study as well quite versatile for picking up one or more 1/encounter abilities.

Tacitus
2010-10-03, 02:05 AM
What would you say to abandoning the use of monsters as written and instead having each player use the True Fiend (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/True_Fiend_%283.5e_Class%29)? It allows for the creation of powerful and unique Evil Outsiders, and from there you could add bonus [Fiend] feats and static ability bonuses. I suggest the Vow of Poverty fix thats floating around the boards somewhere.

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 10:44 AM
Well part of the point is to be fiendish foot soldiers, i.e. not powerful unique fiends, and have ascension to unique fiend the ultimate goal; once you've done that you become a force that shall live forever! (or until you betray your master in a badly thought out manner and he destroys you). Also don't really know how Tome stuff works, the spheres, the feats, etc; learning it would probably be easier than balancing this, but it would lose the opportunity to explore the social stratum of hell.

As for the VoP, Drolyt's is the most common one on the forums, and if you do the math actually worth more than wbl at many levels (not sure about the epic extension), and rather unnecessary on a race of fiends that can already fly, teleport, go without food, etc.

blackjack217
2010-10-03, 10:56 AM
A paladin choice? really?

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 10:59 AM
A paladin choice? really?

Paladin of Tyranny :smallsmile: You don't get more LE than that.

Or Blackguard, I'm pretty sure you could get that almost as easily with a few baatezu hit die beneath your belt.

Darv'it now I have to pull out Legends and Lore or On Hallowed Ground and find what (war) gods live on Baator.

LOTRfan
2010-10-03, 11:00 AM
I assume it is one of the evil Paladin variants. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#pladinofTyrannyClassFe atures)

Edit: ninja'd.

Oh, and isn't God Street in Dis?

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 11:04 AM
Yes it is (I had forgotten about it), although I'll still need to read up on which gods live in Baator and which in Acheron.

Edit: Checking now; Summerian goddess Innana, Babylonian god Druaga (self stylized lord of Baatezu), Egyptian god Set, the goblinoid god Bargrivyek, the best official LE deity Tiamat herself; if I need more I have some I can add (part of the difficulty here is that they decided not to put bad-ass LE gods in Baator because they'd give Asmodeus the beat down too easy).

LOTRfan
2010-10-03, 11:13 AM
Here's a list I can find:

Baator
Avernus
Tiamat
Kurtulmak
Bargrivyek
Takhisis

Dis
Homebrewed Deities of God Street

Minauros
Hecate
The Blood Queen

Phlegethos
Inanna

Stygia
Sekolah
Set

Malbolge
None (?)

Maladomini
None (?)

Cania
None (?)

Nessus
None (?)

Acheron
Avalas
Gruumsh
Bahgtru
Ilneval
Luthic
Bralm
Hextor
Heironeous
Maglubiyet
Khurgorbaeyag
Nomog-Geaya

Thuldanin
Laduguer

Tintibulus
None (?)

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 11:23 AM
And a much more thorough list than mine.

LOTRfan
2010-10-03, 11:25 AM
I'm sure I'm missing a couple, though. I know Bane is somewhere on Acheron.

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 11:27 AM
Personally I was intentionally avoiding Acheron (and Gehenna) deities. Those are obviously tainted with good and chaos respectively, and no true Baatezu would sully themselves by making a pact with such.

Edit: I'm thinking allowing Tiamat, Set, Innana, Sekolah, and Bargrivyek as patrons.

LOTRfan
2010-10-03, 11:39 AM
Yeah. So, do devils even worship deities? Fluff wise for the clerics, will they be worshiping them, or just making pacts with them for power?

Also, will this campaign mostly be happening on planes where the Blood War take place? So, this includes Acheron, Hades, Avernus, and the Plane of Infinite Portals, correct? Will it be assumed the Blood War is going on throughout the Lower Planes as a whole, or just those officially stated to be battlegrounds?

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 11:51 AM
In Hellbound the Blood War, the box set all about it, it defines the Blood War as mainly taking place on Gehenna, the Gray Wastes (especially the Gray Wastes), and Carceri only very rarely reaching the Abyss and Baator itself. It also sometimes moves on to the Outlands nearer the evil side of things.

Seeing as how purely fighting Blood Wars battles would get boring quick, you'll probably also deal with such things as missions on Primes, and other objectives possibly for your fiendish lords or possibly just for oyur own mutual benefit. Other missions might even include gathering MacGuffins required to invade Sigil, since controlling the City of Doors would mean victory in this style of war. Sabotaging some yugoloth machination in such a way it cannot be traced back to the Baatezu. Turning aside a heavenly incursion. Or even helping the Modrons get back on their feet after Tenebrous's imitation of Primus (and taking advantage of this chance to taint some of the modrons and shift the balance within Law towards Evil). Possible things nearer the end might include capturing a Layer of the Abyss and holding it long enough for the Baatezu to set up a powerful enough fortress within it to make the layer break away and slowly move towards Baator, to form a 10th layer of the Baator.

As for the gods, will have to check the Blood War box set but I seem to remember it was more of a make a deal proposition, I'll serve you, you give me more power and a chance to lord it over my equals and some protection from my superiors.

LOTRfan
2010-10-03, 11:59 AM
Sigil, eh? How exactly are you going to use the Lady of Pain? I mean, if she can kill a god by willing it, I'm not sure occupying Sigil is going to be possible without taking her out of the picture, or stating her out as a weaker creature.

There is precedence of planes losing and gaining layers, like the Formorians and Arcadia, so that could be really interesting if done right.

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 12:00 PM
Sigil, eh? How exactly are you going to use the Lady of Pain? I mean, if she can kill a god by willing it, I'm not sure occupying Sigil is going to be possible without taking her out of the picture, or stating her out as a weaker creature.

I actually got that from an oft-hinted plan in the old 2e books. It's something the Baatezu are always scheming but never ready to do. Obviously you'd have to find some way to negate or bind her powers. Although in all seriousness I think that's one mission beyond Asmodeus himself; obtain Sigil and the Baatezu don't only win the Blood War, they win the Planes.

Hat-Trick
2010-10-03, 12:19 PM
All in all a chilling prospect. Controlling Sigil does make it easy to do pretty much anything else. As such, you'd never really be able to do it. Those missions would probably be more of finding and controlling portal access rather than out right conquer.

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 12:22 PM
Or the very end of the campaign, or a case where you succeed, get promoted and are shipped back to the Blood War and some Clueless heroes come in and destroy the MacGuffin (forged from the heart of a dead god, in the center of a dying star, with the tears of the greatest of Archons, and the chain of Fenris) and let the Lady of Pain free again and Baatezu in general are banished from Sigil for a time.

Other ideas include hunting down deserters, and ferreting out spies for (insert force X).

Also what rank of Baatezu should people start at?

Edit: I'm thinking either high lesser or low greater (notably the 2nd highest Greater Baatezu from 2e is now the highest lesser, the 3rd and 4th greater Baatezu got swapped, 2 lesser baatezu got upgraded to greater, and 2 new greater baatezu were made). So either Pain Devil (with option of Harvester Devil), Amnizu, or Osyluth with option of Orthon.

Arcane_Secrets
2010-10-03, 01:27 PM
How about a Prime Material mission where the devil party goes to a world and tries to sabotage the creation of an anti-devil weapon that has been subtly inspired by the demons, whether by capturing it themselves, killing its inventors, or just subverting them?

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 01:34 PM
How about a Prime Material mission where the devil party goes to a world and tries to sabotage the creation of an anti-devil weapon that has been subtly inspired by the demons, whether by capturing it themselves, killing its inventors, or just subverting them?

That would make a wonderful mission.

But what about starting rank in the hierarchy? I'm thinking starting at CR 7 with the options of Amnizu, Pain Devil, Blue Abashai, and Harvester Devil (all CR 7, abashai are in 3.5 outside the hierarchy but I'm returning them to their 2e place; Amnizu are technically 1 step up from Pain Devil and Harvester Devil but I'm willing to put them all on roughly equal footing since they're all lesser Baatezu anyway) with the next step having options of Orthon (with an extra class level), Osyluth, and Red Abashai (with an extra class level).

Edit: So right now I'm sitting with 4 base chassis to begin with (unfortunately shrinking at higher levels to 3, and then to 2 (Assassin Devil and Barbed Devil), and then to 1 (gelugon), and continuing at 1 option (cornugon, paelyrion, Pit Fiend). I don't like that it gets down to 1 option before Pit Fiend so I might see about adding levels to Assassin Devil/Barbed Devil to get them to Gelugon strength, and to Cornugon to get it to Paelyrion level. Thoughts?

Tacitus
2010-10-03, 03:50 PM
Well the Tome stuff is still D&D, but takes a different spin on 3.75 than other stuff has. Failure of feats and borken skill systems, etc.

Perhaps Unique and Powerful was incorrect, as while I'm sure that a party of 20th level True Fiends can smack around Pit Fiends and go take on an army of Balors, I was comparing Tome material to normal D&D in that it is generally much higher powered, especially the feats which all scale to either BAB or Skill Ranks and are generally very good. (And I believe True Fiends have Outsider HD for each class level, so...)

The intent was perhaps putting the True Fiend on one side of a gestalt or just adding in other feats so that each player could take the Fiend feats from the Tome of Fiends and customize their particular character to become a Unique badass. For example, some Fiend feats grant extra arms, other movement forms, claws, stingers, etc, etc, etc.

Yes, moving up through the Hierarchy is fun and all, but sometimes that is telling people to play a type of creature they don't want to play, which is potentially less fun (or more challenging I guess). Here the Hierarchy would be more or less an IC abstraction of either pure fluff like military rank or cosmetic changes.

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 03:57 PM
Actually unique and powerful was in the description of True Fiend as well, and like I said I have no experience at the power level of the Tome books and having looked at some of them that level of difference is enough to make it like learning a new game... although the level of homebrew and house rules required for something like this also is going to be insane.

At the same time people who are interested enough to actually play a game where you explore playing by the book fiends and their hierarchy are less likely to be upset that they are playing fiends in the hierarchy. Leaving the larger problem of actually diversifying the characters so they aren't just interchangeable (although from a baatezu perspective they should be; but a balance point has to be found somewhere).

Urpriest
2010-10-03, 04:14 PM
Instead of giving devils powers dependent on their patron I would suggest having them all work under the same patron, as it seems odd for different patrons to pool resources.

Instead, to make the devils different, why not let each player gestalt their character with a normal base class? FC II suggests that devils keep their personalities in some form or another from promotion to promotion, and I could see a particularly extreme example of such doing this with class levels. You would play through the hierarchy, but despite mostly being the same creature you would have very different characters, just like a party of humans can be very different characters.

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 04:22 PM
That might work, I'm just worried the casting would overshadow the natural demon abilities too much and you'd end up playing Wizard 9 with Osyluth abilities, instead of Osyluth with casting.

Another option is just to make the special benefits not be patron specific. And instead just be some sort of special foci. Or tie things to layer of origin instead of Lords of the 9.

But you're right mix and matching patrons is actually too limiting on where the plot could go. Maybe certain allied groups (if this was pre-Reckoning Mephistopholes's group or Baalzebul's) but not just a mix-up of all 9.

Edit:
Options: Gestalt.
Partial Progression:
Mark of the Mage: You cast spells as a sorcerer (may opt to be an Int based sorcerer) of a class level equal to one half your racial CR (rounded up)
Mark of the Priest: You cast spells as a cleric of a class level equal to one half your racial CR (rounded up).
Mark of the Initiate: You gain Martial Study as a bonus feat and your Initiator level is equal to your racial CR + that derived from class levels.
Mark of the Manifester: You manifest psionic powers as a psion of a class level equal to one half your racial CR (rounded up).
Mark of the Truenamer (use Kyuedo's truenamer fix): You gain access to 1 utterance of a level available to a truenamer of a level equal to your racial CR and add half your racial CR to your truenamer level (if you have one) for utterances known and caster level. Truespeak is always a class skill for you.
Mark of the Warrior: You gain 1/2 (rounded up) your CR in bonus fighter feats.
And make some more?

Urpriest
2010-10-03, 04:31 PM
That might work, I'm just worried the casting would overshadow the natural demon abilities too much and you'd end up playing Wizard 9 with Osyluth abilities, instead of Osyluth with casting.


Eh, I see this as desirable, frankly. The players are exceptional devils. More specifically, they are devils whose interests are powerful enough to generate a plot more interesting than the usual climb up the hierarchy. They care about things that most devils don't care about, and this can include their class. Look at some fiend NPCs: for the most interesting ones, their class is a big part of what makes them interesting.

The abilities of your devil don't have to play a huge role, compared to your social situation. Don't think of a Wizard 9 who happens to use Osyluth abilities occasionally, think of a Wizard 9 who's nine feet tall and looks like he's made of bones, and his friend the Warblade 9 with horns and gray skin. You'll still have pretty radical changes in flavor as things progress, but this will give you character continuity, which helps you tell a story.

By the way, Iggwilv needs to be involved in your plot. Yes, she's more interested in demons than devils. Still, any campaign with fiends is made more awesome by her presence.

Also, if you want to expand options it might be interesting to have one character be a mercenary type: yugoloth, or perhaps night hag. Instead of the standard advancement they'd mostly work via class levels, perhaps advancing to different yugoloth types by choice. Similar to the token evil character in a good party, they'd be there to make the others uncomfortable, create tension, and add flexibility.

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 04:41 PM
By the way, Iggwilv needs to be involved in your plot. Yes, she's more interested in demons than devils. Still, any campaign with fiends is made more awesome by her presence.

Also, if you want to expand options it might be interesting to have one character be a mercenary type: yugoloth, or perhaps night hag. Instead of the standard advancement they'd mostly work via class levels, perhaps advancing to different yugoloth types by choice. Similar to the token evil character in a good party, they'd be there to make the others uncomfortable, create tension, and add flexibility.

Where could I find more information on Iggwilv, I know of her from Dragon magazine's series on arch-demons, but that's all.

I'll think about allowing a yugoloth in the group; although I'm going to have to majorly rewrite yugoloths (ultroloths are only CR 13) first regardless. It would return some of the tension of having people working for different Lords of the 9 without raising it to the completely too high level of the original idea. I'll have to find my reworked yugoloths first, though. With just the MMIII you'd have CR 6, CR 10, then CR 13 which leaves out at least the last 2 or three steps and the 2nd step.

Also I did find another CR 12 devil for alongside Gelugon, it's not the best fit though as its the truespeaking one from Tome of Magic. And there's a CR 16 devil from Fiend Folio, only leaving Paelyrion and Pit Fiend as solo stages (and I'm still thinking about wrapping the former into CR 16 somehow).

hamishspence
2010-10-03, 04:44 PM
Iggwilv's statblock is in Dungeon 149. The Greyhawk Wiki has some details on her and her history:

http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Iggwilv

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 05:41 PM
How would these look:
Mark of the Mage: You cast spells as a sorcerer (may opt to be an Int based sorcerer) of a class level equal to one half your racial CR (rounded up)
Mark of the Priest: You cast spells as a cleric of a class level equal to one half your racial CR (rounded up).
Mark of the Initiate: You gain Martial Study as a bonus feat and your Initiator level is equal to your racial CR + that derived from class levels.
Mark of the Manifester: You manifest psionic powers as a psion of a class level equal to one half your racial CR (rounded up).
Mark of the Truenamer (use Kyuedo's truenamer fix): You gain access to 1 utterance of a level available to a truenamer of a level equal to your racial CR and add half your racial CR to your truenamer level (if you have one) for utterances known and caster level. Truespeak is always a class skill for you.
Mark of the Warrior: You gain 1/2 (rounded up) your CR in bonus fighter feats.
Mark of the Thief: You gain sneak attack as a rogue of half (rounded up) your CR and gain Evasion and Uncanny Dodge.
Mark of the Profane Champion: You gain Divine Grace as the Paladin ability.
Mark of Demonbane: You gain Favored Enemy (Outsider, Chaotic Evil) with a bonus equal to 1/2 (rounded up) your racial CR.
Mark of the Marshal: Gain one major or minor aura as a martial of your level.

And please suggest some more.

Hackulator
2010-10-03, 07:22 PM
I would just advance devils by HD, and allow them to morph into a higher version when they reach something close to its CR. Run the game based on CR as opposed to ECL, but count all classes as associated, because otherwise it gets kind of silly, and that will encourage players to morph up.

Hat-Trick
2010-10-03, 09:52 PM
I like the marks, but the profane champion seems rather thin compared to the others.

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 10:05 PM
I like the marks, but the profane champion seems rather thin compared to the others.

Maybe grant Smite Tanar'ri 1/day +1/day per 5 CR as well?

Also fiends have some good charisma, although the starting ones only have +2 to +6 racial bonus to Charisma... and then Harvester Devil with a +12 to Charisma. So for Harvester Devils it's already possibly the best choice.

Hat-Trick
2010-10-03, 10:24 PM
It's decent, just seemed a little weak in comparison, although I'm no expert on balance as said earlier.

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 10:30 PM
It's not actually that good unless you go harvester devil; so maybe I could make it Divine Grace for Harvester Devils, Divine Grace + Smite 2/day for all the other forms.

Arcane_Secrets
2010-10-03, 10:31 PM
Maybe grant Smite Tanar'ri 1/day +1/day per 5 CR as well?

Also fiends have some good charisma, although the starting ones only have +2 to +6 racial bonus to Charisma... and then Harvester Devil with a +12 to Charisma. So for Harvester Devils it's already possibly the best choice.

I'll respond to the issue of devil choices a bit later, but I agree with adding a smite ability (it might also be good to have it be generally anti-chaos because ta'anari will bring in non-demonic allies eventually, especially if they're smart about it or they have undead pull). Perhaps also add an Aura of Tyranny analogous to the Blackguard Aura of Fear that inflicts a penalty on Will saves.

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 10:35 PM
I'll respond to the issue of devil choices a bit later, but I agree with adding a smite ability (it might also be good to have it be generally anti-chaos because ta'anari will bring in non-demonic allies eventually, especially if they're smart about it or they have undead pull). Perhaps also add an Aura of Tyranny analogous to the Blackguard Aura of Fear that inflicts a penalty on Will saves.

Possibly making that be at CR X or higher. Those Marks were just initial write-ups. I might have to move this to the homebrew forum before finally starting a recruitment thread. Or make those two separate marks because they synergize better than most (half gestalt for casting is useful but action economy limits that; the warblade one is strong; as is actually the fighter one [4 feats]).

One question do I have enough marks or should I make some more?

Hat-Trick
2010-10-04, 01:07 AM
THey seem alright, you might need tweaking, but I dunno. If you make more, I'd suggest some advancements for them rather than fully new ones.

Zaydos
2010-10-04, 07:36 PM
What kind of advancements would you suggest?

Zaydos
2010-10-05, 12:38 PM
Sorry for the double post, but I have a draft of the intro. Haven't finished the big 16 yet (or started it); but how does this look:

Welcome to the Great Baatezu Army
The Blood War has raged for countless eons, reaching back to the mists of Baatorian history. No one, not even the fiends themselves, no graybeard, no guvner, no one, ‘cept maybe Her Serenity, or one of the powers, knows the dark of how the War began; or at least is willing to spill the chant. The War has been fought upon the Prime Material Planes, consuming entire worlds in the quest for souls to recruit. Its battles cover Oinos, coloring the Gray Wastes red in blood. The majority of the resources on the Lower Planes are directed towards its propagation, whether the construction of Hellfire Engines in Baator, the breeding of Goristros in the Abyss, or the machination of yugoloth mercenaries; the Blood War defines the Lower Planes. That does not mean that its battles are limited to these hellish domains. The Outlands, too, are a common battlefield, the Modrons march to the aid of Baator, slaadi slip by ones and twos to the Abyssal armies, and even the celestials find ways to covertly aid their favored sides. Even those most distant planes, the Elemental Planes, find themselves involved in these wars. Dao slaves are bought by both Baatezu and Tanar’ri alike, efreeti warriors make their first kills fighting for Baator, and rumors tell of Baatezu’s researching the nature of the Quasielemental plane of Dust to turn it into a weapon against the Tanar’ri. Even those planes that aren’t directly fighting the war, are influenced by it; cause you see all the jink on the planes is moved around by the War. You know those magic swords and armor, all those berks wear to fight, forged for the war more like than not. No one on the planes, ‘cept maybe some of the fiends, want the War to end, hear; cannier bloods than me would say that both the Baatezu and Tanar’ri want to keep the War going for their own selfish reasons. See the easiest way for a fiend to rise through the ranks is to fight the Blood War, you do well there and you can go from Osyluth to Pit Fiend quicker than by gathering souls; just look at Bel. Now most of the Lords don’t seem to care and a few even actively try and stop the War, but chant in the Cage says that Asmodeus would have to go barmie before he’d let the War end, unless it put him in a position to conquer the entire Wheel then and there; the War keeps his underlings occupied, see and when they’re busy plotting the Blood War they aren’t plotting against him. Just look at the Dark 8, they’re the 8 most competent and powerful Pit Fiends in Baator, if they weren’t busy planning battles they’d be working for the other Lords and Asmodeus wouldn’t want that. So yeah, berk, since the beginning of history the fiends have been fighting this sodding War; why do you think you can win it?

This game will be using several houserules, mostly because you aren’t humans, elves, dwarves, or the like, but full-fledge Baatezu fighting for the Baatorian armies in the Blood War. Since you’re the protagonists, and therefore not just one of the faceless masses you’re each going to be given a special ability or “mark” that grants you limited access to certain class abilities based upon what mark it is. You will advance by level and promotion between forms; the latter resetting you to 1 level of whatever class you like so be prepared to rebuild characters. Your point buy and how your ability scores are arranged never changes and neither does your mark but whenever you promote you can re-arrange your feats, your skills, and choose a new class.

You’ll all be starting as CR 7 Baatezu; the current list of options is Blue Abashai, Pain Devil, Harvester Devil, or Amnizu, if you find another CR 7 (or even CR 6) Baatezu then I’ll look at it; if it’s official I’ll probably add it to the list, if it’s homebrew I’ll check it against the others. When you promote the first time you’ll become an orthon*, red abashai*, or osyluth (other CR 8 or 9 Baatezu will be considered); the 2nd promotion will make you a barbed devil or an assassin devil (other CR 10-12 Baatezu will be considered); the 3rd will make you an ice devil* or a logokron (other CR 13-14 Baatezu will be considered); the 4th will make you a horned devil or ghargatula (other CR 15-17 Baatezu will be considered); the 5th will make you a Pit Fiend or paeliryon* (other CR 18+ Baatezu will be considered); the 6th promotion, if thou earn it will make you a unique fiend and a Duke of Hell. If the campaign is not over by this point a 7th promotion would require getting Asmodeus to oust one of the Lords of 9 so that you could take his place.

*: The indicated fiend is being considered for an extra class level(s) upon promotion.

If someone wishes to play a CR appropriate yugoloth, it will be considered, but be forewarned that after 1 to 3 promotions you will be required to retire your character and use a Baatezu due to distrust of yugoloths in the sensitive missions you will be handling at those levels.

A note on homebrew: I am willing to look at homebrew from these forums but please do not link to your own homebrew, not because I doubt your abilities per se, but because if I do have a problem with the balance it could become a messy argument.

Quests/Missions: You are soldiers in the Blood War. You are half-infantry, and due to your special talents (better base stats, Mark, and class level(s)) half-special ops. You might fight upon Oinos one adventure, have a quest on the Prime another, deal with a Doom Guard base on the Plane of Ash that is secretly providing the Tanar'ri with advanced magical weapons the next; eventually you might spearhead an invasion of Sigil (doomed to somehow fail, or be quickly undone since the Baatezu controlling Sigil is game over for the multiverse), capture a layer of the Abyss creating a beachhead long enough to move in a sizable Baatezu army and killing all chaotic creatures on the plane to cause the layer to slide out of the Abyss towards Baator, stopping yugoloth sabotage of a Baatezu mission, or even working directly for or against some of the Lords of the 9 themselves.

Marks:


Mark of the Sorcerer: You cast spells as a sorcerer of a class level equal to one half your racial CR (rounded down)
Mark of the Mage: You cast spells as wizard of a class level equal to one half your racial CR (rounded down)
Mark of the Priest: You cast spells as a cleric of a class level equal to one half your racial CR (rounded down).
Mark of the Initiate: You gain Martial Study as a bonus feat and your Initiator level is equal to your racial CR + that derived from class levels.
Mark of the Manifester: You manifest psionic powers as a psion of a class level equal to one half your racial CR (rounded down).
Mark of the Truenamer (use Kyuedo's truenamer fix): You gain access to 1 utterance of a level available to a truenamer of a level equal to your racial CR and add half your racial CR to your truenamer level (if you have one) for utterances known and caster level. Truespeak is always a class skill for you.
Mark of the Warrior: You gain 1/2 (rounded down) your CR in bonus fighter feats.
Mark of the Thief: You gain sneak attack as a rogue of half (rounded down) your CR and gain Evasion and Uncanny Dodge.
Mark of the Profane Champion: You gain Divine Grace as the Paladin ability; if you are not a harvester devil you also gain Smite Chaos 1/encounter (using your CR as your paladin level).
Mark of Demonbane: You gain Favored Enemy (Outsider, Chaotic Evil) with a bonus equal to 1/2 (rounded down) your racial CR.
Mark of the Marshal: Gain one major or minor aura as a martial of your CR, or one Draconic Aura as a dragon totem shaman of your CR.
Mark of the Warmage: You can cast spells as a warmage 3/4ths your racial CR, you do not gain warmage’s edge from this ability.
Mark of the Necromancer: You can cast spells as a dread necromancer ½ your racial CR (round down) and gain access to Charnel Touch as a dread necromancer ½ your CR. When your dread necromancer CL reaches 8 you gain their normal improvements to Animate Dead
Mark of the Enchanter: You can cast spells as a beguiler ½ your racial CR (round down). You also gain Silent and Still Spell as bonus feats.
Mark of the Incarnate: You gain essentia as an incarnate 3/4th your racial CR and access to one Least Chakra Bind.
Mark of the Spirithost: You can bind vestiges as a binder ½ your racial CR rounded down.

Hat-Trick
2010-10-05, 01:50 PM
Wow, that really was a read. If that doesn't spark interest, I'll eat my non-existent hat.

LOTRfan
2010-10-05, 04:09 PM
Will you be using the character options from Fiendish Codex II?

Also, if you are accepting homebrew, I suggest the Yergil, by Caracol. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3967686&postcount=9) Just in case anyone takes the improved familiar/Leadership feat.

Cogidubnus
2010-10-05, 04:15 PM
I'm interested, pending decisions on the details.

Zaydos
2010-10-05, 05:01 PM
Will you be using the character options from Fiendish Codex II?

Also, if you are accepting homebrew, I suggest the Yergil, by Caracol. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3967686&postcount=9) Just in case anyone takes the improved familiar/Leadership feat.

Which options in particular are you asking about? Most likely they will be in use unless specifically for good aligned characters.

Edit: Also I'm homebrewing a feat that combines obtain familiar and improved familiar into one and I think I'll allow yergils with it.

And: Mark of the Warlock: You gain an eldritch blast dealing damage as a warlock of your CR, and Brimstone Blast; you also gain 1 least invocation, as well as 1 lesser invocation once your racial CR reaches 10, 1 greater (racial CR 15), and 1 dark (racial CR 20).

Zaydos
2010-10-05, 06:13 PM
Well if people are interested:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9489606#post9489606

LOTRfan
2010-10-05, 06:37 PM
Unfortunately, at this point in time I wouldn't be able to participate. If you ever want help with brainstorming adventure ideas/cool PC mechanics/monsters, I'll definitely contribute. :smallsmile:

Zaydos
2010-10-05, 06:48 PM
Unfortunately, at this point in time I wouldn't be able to participate. If you ever want help with brainstorming adventure ideas/cool PC mechanics/monsters, I'll definitely contribute. :smallsmile:

That sucks, I'll remember that though. I get the feeling it would have been real fun to have you.

Arcane_Secrets
2010-10-11, 12:18 PM
Apologies for the delay in responding. I think that the devil choices for this are fine.