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Kaeso
2010-10-03, 11:14 AM
I've seen some posts on this forum that claim a wizard can out-fight a fighter. While I may not be a hardcore DnD veteran I have enough common sense to understand that a pitting a fighter against a wizard is the same as putting an obese cow in front of a starving jaguar. What surprised me though, is the claim that a wizard can "out-fight" a fighter, ie. engage in melee combat and either:
a) defeat the fighter
b) be more effective than the fighter (ie. taking down more/stronger monsters)
How is this even possible? A wizard has spells that are mostly intended to buff, debuff, do damage or shape the battlefield, a wizard still has a puny d4 hit dice, the worst BAB progression in the game and proficiency with an underwhelming array of weapons. One would think a wizard engaging in melee combat is either begging for death or out of options. Could anybody please elaborate why a wizard outfights a fighter?

dragonsamurai77
2010-10-03, 11:15 AM
Polymorph.

Kaeso
2010-10-03, 11:16 AM
Polymorph.

Polymorph doesn't change a wizards BAB or Hp, only his (natural) armor and weapon proficiency (because it can add natural weapons) right?

Greenish
2010-10-03, 11:18 AM
Polymorph doesn't change a wizards BAB or Hp, only his (natural) armor and weapon proficiency (because it can add natural weapons) right?So you polymorph into something that can outgrapple the fighter, which is easy.

And comparing fighters to obese cows is not nice, they have enough problems as is. :smalltongue:

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-10-03, 11:21 AM
Polymorph handles the combat prowess, Wraithstrike makes your attacks hit touch AC (and certain forms help with hitting through a variety of different strikes...incoporeal Charisma drain, for instance), polymorph helps with DR, healing, immunities, and defenses, and there are plenty of spells to prevent melee attacks from landing or, if they do land, having any effect.

Emperor Ing
2010-10-03, 11:23 AM
Plenty of spells that increase AC (Shield, (Greater) Mage Armor), spells that allow you to hit better (Persistant True Strike (NOTE: DOES NOT boost damage)) and do more damage (Greater Magic Fang/Weapon) allows a wizard to do quite a bit. At early levels a Fighter can reasonably beat a wizard, but if it gets to the point where the wizard is even able to cast Persistent True Strike, the fighter should just sit in a corner and go cry.

Greenish
2010-10-03, 11:25 AM
Or without polymorph line of spells (alter self will get the wizard flight or a big pile of Natural armour even in low levels), the wizard can buff his AC some, his misschances even more, then Master's Touch (proficiency with touched weapon), Greater Mighty Wallop (increases the weapon's damage by several sizes) and Wraithstrike (hits with touch attacks).

Or just summon/call something strong to take care of the problem.

Eloel
2010-10-03, 11:34 AM
Buff yourself up with various already told buffs. Shapechange. Tenser's Transformation (so we make sure we don't attack with spells, also, full BAB).

Good Game.

Edit: Yes, that does cost the Wizard some cash. Cast a couple Walls of Iron to mitigate.

true_shinken
2010-10-03, 11:37 AM
So you polymorph into something that can outgrapple the fighter, which is easy.
Not that soon, it isn't. Once you get Polymorph, at caster level 7 and thus capped at 7HD, you are very limited on selection. Seven-headed hydras are Huge with Str 19, so that's probably your best bet: +13 to grapple before base attack (so +16 with a Wizard 7).
Once you grapple, you might have the advantage on grapple checks against an unoptimized vanilla Fighter (let's say we have a medium-sized Fighter with only (already augmented) Str 18 - that alone is +11 to grapple). That's far from auto-success and you also take an attack of opportunity. Also, the Fighter gets two grapple attempts per turn (it is determined by bab) while the Wizard only gets one.
Once we include a focused grappler, this just get silly. Jotunbrud and Improved Grapple alone gets us +19 grapple. Armbands of Might increase this to +21. That's the same advantage the Wizard had against the vanilla Fighter, but the grappler Fighter deals more damage, has two grapple checks per round and does not provoke an attack of opportunity for starting a grapple.

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-03, 11:37 AM
Plenty of spells that increase AC (Shield, (Greater) Mage Armor), spells that allow you to hit better (Persistant True Strike (NOTE: DOES NOT boost damage)) and do more damage (Greater Magic Fang/Weapon) allows a wizard to do quite a bit. At early levels a Fighter can reasonably beat a wizard, but if it gets to the point where the wizard is even able to cast Persistent True Strike, the fighter should just sit in a corner and go cry.

You... can't persist True Strike. At all. No, it's completely impossible.

No, not even then.

true_shinken
2010-10-03, 11:38 AM
You... can't persist True Strike. At all. No, it's completely impossible.

No, not even then.

Even if you could (and you can't) it would only mean you have 24 hours to decide when you'd get that +20 to attack.

DragoonWraith
2010-10-03, 11:39 AM
Well, you can, it would just end the first time you actually attacked. But you could have a Persistent True Strike that lasts all day (until you make that first attack). Worth a 7th level spell slot? No, it's probably not worth a 2nd level spell slot. But you could.

true_shinken
2010-10-03, 11:41 AM
Well, you can, it would just end the first time you actually attacked. But you could have a Persistent True Strike that lasts all day (until you make that first attack). Worth a 7th level spell slot? No, it's probably not worth a 2nd level spell slot. But you could.

Actually, you can't persist 'dischargeable' spells. True Strike seems to qualify.

Eloel
2010-10-03, 11:44 AM
You... can't persist True Strike. At all. No, it's completely impossible.

No, not even then.

You CAN, however, persist Wraithstrike. Which is enough to make sure Wiz hits.

true_shinken
2010-10-03, 11:45 AM
You CAN, however, persist Wraithstrike. Which is enough to make sure Wiz hits.

It's also enough to waste of a perfectly good high-level slot that could be used for something actually useful.

DragoonWraith
2010-10-03, 11:46 AM
Actually, you can't persist 'dischargeable' spells. True Strike seems to qualify.
Aha, you are correct.

Eloel
2010-10-03, 11:47 AM
It's also enough to waste of a perfectly good high-level slot that could be used for something actually useful.

I assumed we were going melee with the wizard. How is bypassing all armor & shields useless? (I'm aware this is suboptimal for batman-style. But we're not going Save or Die, Save or Suck, Dont Save Just Suck. We're trying to beat fighter at his own game.)

Greenish
2010-10-03, 11:51 AM
Not that soon, it isn't. Once you get Polymorph, at caster level 7 and thus capped at 7HD, you are very limited on selection. Seven-headed hydras are Huge with Str 19, so that's probably your best bet: +13 to grapple before base attack (so +16 with a Wizard 7).Brown bear is only Large, but does come with Improved Grab and impressive 27 Str. That's +12 to Grapple before BAB, so only one point behind. Then we can snap up a few points more from Bull's Strength. There are probably other spells for boosting grapple check, but I'm not a great fan of vancian casting so I haven't looked into them so much.


Once we include a focused grappler, this just get silly. Jotunbrud and Improved Grapple alone gets us +19 grapple. Armbands of Might increase this to +21. That's the same advantage the Wizard had against the vanilla Fighter, but the grappler Fighter deals more damage, has two grapple checks per round and does not provoke an attack of opportunity for starting a grapple.Okay, so if the fighter is focused on grappling, she'll win on grappling at lower levels. The wizard would then want to avoid grappling.

Eloel
2010-10-03, 11:53 AM
"Outfighting the fighter" can also be taken as;

Take a bow. Shoot until fighter dies.

Windwall + Fly-By Attack makes it easy.

grimbold
2010-10-03, 11:54 AM
maybe 7 heade pyrohydra flies away and breathes fire on the fighter? or is that not counting as melee?

true_shinken
2010-10-03, 11:54 AM
I assumed we were going melee with the wizard. How is bypassing all armor & shields useless? (I'm aware this is suboptimal for batman-style. But we're not going Save or Die, Save or Suck, Dont Save Just Suck. We're trying to beat fighter at his own game.)

Either way, Wraithstrike is just a 2nd level spell. If you are going melee, cast at the beginning of your turn. Save your high-level slots for stuff like quickened dimension door or the like.
Also, 'beating the fight at his own game' is risky, cost-intensive and not at all intelligent. A Wizard shouldn't do this. If something somehow pierces his defenses (not that hard when the Wizard is actually going mele - Pierce Magical Concealment + Pierce Magical Protection already deal with most stuff), you're royally screwed.
There is a reason why the Big Stupid Fighter archetype is called stupid, after all.


{Scrubbed}
Also:

Breath weapons are supernatural abilities except where noted.
You don't get breath weapons from polymorph.



Okay, so if the fighter is focused on grappling, she'll win on grappling at lower levels. The wizard would then want to avoid grappling.
Indeed. I just saying it was not as easy as you pointed for a wizard to outgrapple a fighter.

Greenish
2010-10-03, 12:03 PM
Also, 'beating the fight at his own game' is risky, cost-intensive and not at all intelligent. A Wizard shouldn't do this.True (when not speaking about gishes), but beside the point.

Indeed. I just saying it was not as easy as you pointed for a wizard to outgrapple a fighter.Well, a fighter focused on grappling is even sillier than a wizard focused on melee. :smallwink:

Eloel
2010-10-03, 12:05 PM
Shapechange into a Darktentacles (MM2). Large. +16 racial bonus to grapple. 19 base Str (23 with bullstr)

Sitting on a +26 grapple check + BAB, which is 10 without Tenser's.

true_shinken
2010-10-03, 12:07 PM
Well, a fighter focused on grappling is even sillier than a wizard focused on melee. :smallwink:
Not at low levels, no. It can still outgrapple CR-apropriate monsters.
Grappling without Expansion or Wildshape becomes useless when you start getting Colossal enemies, but around level 7 it's pretty nice. It's also very light cost-wise.


Shapechange into a Darktentacles (MM2). Large. +16 racial bonus to grapple. 19 base Str (23 with bullstr)

Sitting on a +26 grapple check + BAB, which is 10 without Tenser's.

Not that soon, it isn't. Once you get Polymorph, at caster level 7 and thus capped at 7HD
Yeah, we're not talking about 9th-level spells here. Thanks for your time.
Tenser's Transformation is probably the worst spell in the game, btw.
Also, MM2 is notoriously broken and so it Polymorph anyway. So yeah (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoYeah).

Greenish
2010-10-03, 12:10 PM
Not at low levels, no. It can still outgrapple CR-apropriate monsters.Yeah, just get enough Dex to be able to pat yourself on the back for taking one monster out of the battle with just the low cost of doing the same for yourself.

true_shinken
2010-10-03, 12:13 PM
Yeah, just get enough Dex to be able to pat yourself on the back for taking one monster out of the battle with just the low cost of doing the same for yourself.
It just cost you two feats. Against mobs, you can use Improved Trip + Stand Still.

Eloel
2010-10-03, 12:18 PM
You're, incidentally, the only one who ever talked about levels. So, yeah, I think "I" am off-topic.

Also, Tenser's Transformation IS a BAD spell. Except when you're trying to turn into a melee monster. Seriously, read the OP.

A wizard set on the task can outgrapple a fighter at level ONE. Yes, ONE.

18 Str, Improved Grapple. Cast Enlarge Person, go to town. Or is that too soon for you?

lsfreak
2010-10-03, 12:21 PM
18 Str, Improved Grapple. Cast Enlarge Person, go to town. Or is that too soon for you?

Don't forget the octopus familiar!

true_shinken
2010-10-03, 12:22 PM
18 Str, Improved Grapple. Cast Enlarge Person, go to town. Or is that too soon for you?
*sigh*
Even then, you are wrong. The Fighter has Jotunbrud plus Improved Grapple. He beats you in both action economy (no need for Enlarge Person), hit points and base attack bonus.
If you really wanted to be a gimped useless Wizard to beat a Fighter in hiw own game, you could use Precotious Aprentice (via flaws or selling your sould) to get Str 22. Of course, this completly sucks in action economy anyway.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-10-03, 12:22 PM
A wizard set on the task can outgrapple a fighter at level ONE. Yes, ONE.

18 Str, Improved Grapple. Cast Enlarge Person, go to town. Or is that too soon for you?

Don't forget your Octopus familiar.

EDIT: Swordsaged. The only real reason to dislike ToB.

Greenish
2010-10-03, 12:26 PM
It just cost you two feats.Jotunbrud, IUS, Imp. Grapple, for the ability to deal 1d3+str damage with opposed checks.

Against mobs, you can use Improved Trip + Stand Still.Then you're not grappling, and have burned feats for nothing.

Usually you have several opponents, and when you have just one big one, well, it's a big one.

Eloel
2010-10-03, 12:26 PM
*sigh*
Even then, you are wrong. The Fighter has Jotunbrud plus Improved Grapple. He beats you in both action economy (no need for Enlarge Person), hit points and base attack bonus.
If you really wanted to be a gimped useless Wizard to beat a Fighter in hiw own game, you could use Precotious Aprentice (via flaws or selling your sould) to get Str 22. Of course, this completly sucks in action economy anyway.

Nothing says Wizard can't have Jotunbrud along with Improved Grapple - so that one is equal.

Enlarge Person gives +5ft reach, so Wiz always has first attack (of opportunity). He also has +4 from size, +2 from octopus and +1 from extra Str to grapple checks vs your BAB, so a net +6 difference.

Are we optimizing to beat Fighter in melee, or will we try to beat the Fighter in melee with a Wizard meant to cast SoDs? If you want, Fell Drain Sonic Snap oneshots Fighter allright, though that's not melee.

Milskidasith
2010-10-03, 12:30 PM
Either way, Wraithstrike is just a 2nd level spell. If you are going melee, cast at the beginning of your turn. Save your high-level slots for stuff like quickened dimension door or the like.
Also, 'beating the fight at his own game' is risky, cost-intensive and not at all intelligent. A Wizard shouldn't do this. If something somehow pierces his defenses (not that hard when the Wizard is actually going mele - Pierce Magical Concealment + Pierce Magical Protection already deal with most stuff), you're royally screwed.
There is a reason why the Big Stupid Fighter archetype is called stupid, after all.

Two things:

One: Quickened Dimension Door is not amazing, considering DD ends your turn when you cast it. Swift of standard action, it doesn't really change how well it works. It's useful for letting you teleport after you actually hit somebody with a spell, I suppose, but for escaping, it's no more useful than a normal dimension door.

Two: The concept is not "is the wizard fighting in melee a good idea?" it is "Can the wizard outfight the fighter?" Constantly saying "this is a bad idea" is not productive, at all.

Also, persistent wraithstrike is a very, very good use of an eighth level spell slot.

lsfreak
2010-10-03, 12:35 PM
For grappling:
Fighter:
- +4Str
- +1BAB
- +4 impgrapple
- +4 jormiwhatever

Wizard:
- +2Str (assuming other stats are just as important - like Con for his d4's).
- +4 impgrapple
- +4 jormiwhatever
- +3 octopus familiar

Still puts them at equal. Throw in a single round for Enlarge Person or a wizard that can afford higher in Strength and he wins.

Also, I'd agree that persisted wraithstrike is an excellent use of an 8th level slot. You're cutting almost everyone's armor down by at least 4 or 5 by the time you get to use it, and often more like 10+. There's a reason it borders on unallowably-broken.

DragoonWraith
2010-10-03, 12:38 PM
Touch AC remains pretty much constant across the CRs, while regular AC goes up quite a lot between 1 and 20. That makes Touch Attacks a much bigger deal later than earlier.

Mongoose87
2010-10-03, 01:00 PM
Grapple isn't even a useful part of melee. Why are we debating it?

ericgrau
2010-10-03, 01:01 PM
HD usually scales faster than CR, and polymorph HD is usually capped by your level. With wizard BAB and HP, you may even come out as something worse than the original monster which a fighter of much lower level could take on. Or at the very least you could polymorph the fighter and do much more. So in fact the answer always becomes polymorph + insert cheese here: splatbook forms where CR scales faster than HD, auto-hit cheese, enough buffs (and 10 rounds I dunno how you expect to get unnoticed) to make something crazy with or without polymorph, violating rules such as the one against getting multiple attacks and saying "n'uh, I can get multiple attacks anyway b/c this attack is not an attack", etc.

So in the end it depends whether you're playing a theoretical game or a real world game. Theoretically it's a hoot b/c you have a lot of options to pile on. As a real world issue it doesn't often come up without flying DMGs coming towards your forehead from so much gouda. For example the RPGA Greyhawk games banned it not for power abuse (which they even explained, even explaining where abuse could come from but didn't b/c of their rules) but b/c it was so complicated that it slowed games way down. If you bother with it you better have a lot prepared in advance to avoid this. And better not be saying "Ok, now I combo it with this from my 7th book, that from my 5th book and yes those 3 lines of text are the only thing I ever use from that book, why? <dodge>"

true_shinken
2010-10-03, 01:16 PM
Nothing says Wizard can't have Jotunbrud along with Improved Grapple - so that one is equal.
A martial Wizard, trading Scribe Scroll for a Fighter bonus feat, could do it, yes.


Enlarge Person gives +5ft reach, so Wiz always has first attack (of opportunity). He also has +4 from size, +2 from octopus and +1 from extra Str to grapple checks vs your BAB, so a net +6 difference.
But he Wizard's attack roll is lower by at least 2 points - the size penalty and the BAB difference.


Are we optimizing to beat Fighter in melee, or will we try to beat the Fighter in melee with a Wizard meant to cast SoDs? If you want, Fell Drain Sonic Snap oneshots Fighter allright, though that's not melee.
Yeah, that's my point. It's a lot easier to just finish the Fighter with some other spell trick. Beating the Fighter in melee at low levels requires immense effort and gives a lower chance of success in return. It's not even 100%, since even with a large investment, the Wizard still has less hit points, meaning a single mistake will make him die, simple as that.
Even more important, the Wizard can only pull all this shenanigans mentioned once. Meaning he actually contributes less to the party than a Fighter, using the proposed builds.


Two things:
One: Quickened Dimension Door is not amazing, considering DD ends your turn when you cast it. Swift of standard action, it doesn't really change how well it works. It's useful for letting you teleport after you actually hit somebody with a spell, I suppose, but for escaping, it's no more useful than a normal dimension door.
It is. Normal dimension door causes an attack of opportunity.


Two: The concept is not "is the wizard fighting in melee a good idea?" it is "Can the wizard outfight the fighter?" Constantly saying "this is a bad idea" is not productive, at all.
And is saying 'you can outfight him if you actually suck at being a Wizard' a good idea? Because that's basically the point we are at.


Also, persistent wraithstrike is a very, very good use of an eighth level spell slot.
I disagree. You have enough 2nd level spells that you won't miss them.
If you are stuck to prepared casting (an an optimized Wizard is not), though, I believe it could be useful.



Stuff
I agree with everything you said.

lsfreak
2010-10-03, 01:28 PM
I disagree. You have enough 2nd level spells that you won't miss them.

Seriously? Giving yourself a +10 or greater on attacks all day isn't worth a single 8th level slot? A wizard doesn't have enough 2nd level spells to give himself that every round he'd want to hit, and even if I did, eating up every round's swift action in order to get it isn't worth it.

Greenish
2010-10-03, 01:30 PM
But he Wizard's attack roll is lower by at least 2 points - the size penalty and the BAB difference.Well, it's a touch attack to start the grapple, so it'll probably still hit. When grappling, the penalty to hit from size doesn't matter.


And is saying 'you can outfight him if you actually suck at being a Wizard' a good idea? Because that's basically the point we are at.No one is saying you have to suck as a wizard. You'll be less effective than a control- or even blasting focused wizard, yes, but you'll still be a wizard.

The whole point of the discussion is not whether wizards should try out-fighting fighters, it's about whether they could.

true_shinken
2010-10-03, 01:38 PM
Seriously? Giving yourself a +10 or greater on attacks all day isn't worth a single 8th level slot? A wizard doesn't have enough 2nd level spells to give himself that every round he'd want to hit, and even if I did, eating up every round's swift action in order to get it isn't worth it.

You do that, you just begin to fight more creatures with high touch AC and wraithstrik becomes useless.


Well, it's a touch attack to start the grapple, so it'll probably still hit. When grappling, the penalty to hit from size doesn't matter.
A low-level Fighter should have a touch AC of 12-13 without boosts - attacking it with a flat d20 roll is less than 50% to hit.
Also, Fighters have ways of increasing their touch AC, such as Parrying Shield.

No one is saying you have to suck as a wizard. You'll be less effective than a control- or even blasting focused wizard, yes, but you'll still be a wizard.

The whole point of the discussion is not whether wizards should try out-fighting fighters, it's about whether they could.
One guy is actually saying you should have a Str 18 Wizard. Unless you rolled all 18s or something, that qualifies as sucking as a Wizard in my book.
I'm not saying a Wizard can't outfight a Fighter, just that's it's not as easy as you make it sound at low-levels. If you build a Wizard to outfight a Fighter outside of Polymorph, you will be contributing a lot less to the party than even the Fighter would - because you are wasting limited resources (spells) to mimic his unlimited resources (bab, feats, etc).

dextercorvia
2010-10-03, 01:48 PM
Arcane Disciple (War) for Magic Vestment, and Divine Power, or Competition for Divine Power and Righteous Might. Take Incantrix or Spelldancer(?) to persist as needed.

Eloel
2010-10-03, 01:52 PM
One guy is actually saying you should have a Str 18 Wizard. Unless you rolled all 18s or something, that qualifies as sucking as a Wizard in my book.
I'm not saying a Wizard can't outfight a Fighter, just that's it's not as easy as you make it sound at low-levels. If you build a Wizard to outfight a Fighter outside of Polymorph, you will be contributing a lot less to the party than even the Fighter would - because you are wasting limited resources (spells) to mimic his unlimited resources (bab, feats, etc).
That guy would be me. A wizard with 15 starting Int can cast all spells when he gets them. If you don't rely on spells with saves, you don't care all that much about your int. Also, the hypothetical fighter gets 18 Str, 18 Con and a passing dex, but the wizard can't have 15 int, 18 str and a passing con? Wow, that sure goes by the book.

Wizard of a higher level can do 'better than fighter' all day long. Persist Spell, remember?
At lower spell, fighter is screwed due to HP always going down and never up (unless a cleric is healbotting you, instead of over-fightering you)

Also, a wizard can attack flying enemies in melee, while still being a better melee than the fighter. The fighter? Waves his hand at the flying creatures that kick his butt.

Also, 'vs monsters' is only half the OP, in which Wizard sure wins what with Blink / Blur / Mirror Image.

Vs. Each other? Fighter better have his grave ready.


A low-level Fighter should have a touch AC of 12-13 without boosts - attacking it with a flat d20 roll is less than 50% to hit.

Uh, hello? 20 Str granting +5 to hit?

Greenish
2010-10-03, 01:54 PM
A low-level Fighter should have a touch AC of 12-13 without boosts - attacking it with a flat d20 roll is less than 50% to hit.If this great grapple-fighter has, in addition to the 18 strength, also 16 dex, well, we can assume fairly high pointbuy, which'll get the wizard a good amount of strength, say, 16 for a grapple-focus. So, 50/50, assuming the fighter has surprisingly good touch AC.

Also, Fighters have ways of increasing their touch AC, such as Parrying Shield.Yeah, at later levels. When the wizard has more spells.


One guy is actually saying you should have a Str 18 Wizard. Unless you rolled all 18s or something, that qualifies as sucking as a Wizard in my book.Well, it's a wizard focused on grappling at low levels. 18 is somewhat excessive, but he can still have a 14 and a 16 with 32 point buy.

Your fighter isn't doing very well, either, what with 18 str, 16 dex and 13 int (for Combat Expertise -> Imp. Trip), which leaves his con at pathetic 8.

I'm not saying a Wizard can't outfight a Fighter, just that's it's not as easy as you make it sound at low-levels. If you build a Wizard to outfight a Fighter outside of Polymorph, you will be contributing a lot less to the party than even the Fighter would - because you are wasting limited resources (spells) to mimic his unlimited resources (bab, feats, etc).So? I remember stating that the point wasn't whether you should do it, but whether it can be done.

Eldariel
2010-10-03, 02:00 PM
Grappler Wizard uses Polymorph to Remorhaz (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/remorhaz.htm) shared with his familiar on level 7. This gives him +19 Grapple-check, against Fighter's 7 BAB & 5-6 Str. It's not a slaughter but the Wizard is good 6-7 points ahead of the Fighter still (enough that even if the Fighter has Enlarge Person on him, he's still beat - both can add Improved Grapple for the same result). Oh, and there are two Wizard grapplers.

Also, the Wizard's AC will involve at least +4 Mage Armor and maybe some other defensive spells (Shield, Mirror Image, Displacement, etc. - depending on how much warning) and if he's a combatant Wizard, he can have 10 min/level buffs (last over an hour already) probably up, giving him +4 Dex and Str for +21 Grapple & 26 AC.


Then he could turn into a Hydra instead and use generic buffs like Heroism and such to pump up all the heads. Two Hydras can be very scary when all the individual attacks are buffed. Of course, this is using only core. Outside Core, Wizard gets even more buff spells and some class features that lend themselves well to fighting.

Felhammer
2010-10-03, 02:03 PM
Why would you ever want to out-melee the Fighter when you can simply dominate him? At least then you could pit your Fighter pet against other Wizard's Fighter pets to see which Fighter pet can out-melee the other! :smallwink: :smallbiggrin:

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-03, 02:19 PM
Why would you ever want to out-melee the Fighter when you can simply dominate him? At least then you could pit your Fighter pet against other Wizard's Fighter pets to see which Fighter pet can out-melee the other! :smallwink: :smallbiggrin:

To prove to him that his class is entirely worthless.

Logalmier
2010-10-03, 02:27 PM
Cast Body of War and call it a day. Or Tensers Transformation. Or Shapechange Or every other spell that makes fighters obsolete but that I'm to lazy to look up.

Gov2win
2010-10-03, 02:28 PM
You do that, you just begin to fight more creatures with high touch AC and wraithstrik becomes useless.

I don't really know why you keep using PvE as an argument against people discussing PvP, but all you're doing is getting people frustrated.


Yeah, we're not talking about 9th-level spells here. Thanks for your time.
Tenser's Transformation is probably the worst spell in the game, btw.
Also, MM2 is notoriously broken and so it Polymorph anyway. So yeah.

We never established any sort of level to go by, so it's a fair to conclude that the Wizard can Shapechange, and both characters are level 20. When you debate the potential of a class it's usually discussed at level 20, the full representation of the class.

Also, because Polymorph/Shapechange and MM2 are broken you're saying we shouldn't use them? I don't think I need to point out how little sense that makes considering the nature of this thread.

Greenish
2010-10-03, 02:41 PM
To prove to him that his class is entirely worthless.But then the fighter can go "BOO YAH, it's not actually a class, just a pile of feats! Gotcha!"

Koury
2010-10-03, 02:53 PM
I have a level 5 Wizard build that was made for one of the duals these threads like to generate1. I built him to out fight the Fighter (I mean, it's too easy to just do the normal Wizard thing). The other guy never showed up after our level 1 dual so I never got to use my level 5 Wizard.

If someone wants to make a Level 5 Fighter, I wouldn't mind fighting you. Think it was 32 pt buy, no flaws, standard WBL. I'd check the specifics if somone accepted. And if no one accepts, I'll just post the link to the build here.

1Self-fulfilling statement is self-fulfilling.

Godskook
2010-10-03, 02:58 PM
Read this: Team Solars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81794)

Then note that he does not (ab)use heroics or mirror move in that thread. The combo can give your average wizard shock trooper, at the cost of 2 spell slots(probably 8th level for most builds, but in that thread, 2nd level, since he's mitigating metamagic costs) and 2 eternal wands of heroics(to get the required 'demonstration' for Mirror Move).

He also decided not to use Greater Mighty Whallop, for colossal damage-dice on his bludgeon weapons.

-----------

For the 'simple' comparison:

Focused Specialist Transmuter 20, taking extend spell and persistent spell, using the UA fighter feat variant gets 5 fighter feats from class levels(8 fighter feats behind fighter, atm). Then, using the heroics trick to emulate the desired feats, casts persistent mirror move for 4 more feats(4 behind), and then casts persistent Heroics 4 times(dead even). The wizard now has as many fighter feats as the fighter, which can be pretty much anything, and 6 of them can be changed daily to fit circumstances. Now, let's compare how this build compares to a standard fighter:

-Delayed access to high BAB feats such as shocktrooper without prestige-ing.
-High will save instead of high fort
-Lower HP due to HD
-Lower BAB

Of those, the 1st is mostly mitigated through classes like Abjurant Champion, the 2nd is a wash, the 3rd is, on average 63 HP. Heart of Earth grants 30 temp HP, and can be applied 6 times per day with just 4th level spells, for 180 temp HP in the long-run.

The 4th can be compensated for by taking Arcane Disciple(War), but to keep the fighter feats 'even', we'll need to switch around how we're doing things. Note thate 3 extended Heroics + 1 normal casting gets us all-day benefits without a high-slot cost. Do that twice, and spend the first 'free' feat on AD(War). With mitigation, you could persist Divine Power, but 20 rounds is sufficient for most combat situations, so I think we can survive with a quickened version. We use the second 'free' feat on quicken spell, and load-up our 9th level slots with quickened Divine power spells(note, we also get +6 str enhancement from this, so we just went up in WBL).

So now, we have a wizard who has as many available fighter feats as a fighter, less maxHP but can soak more damage due to tempHP, can select most of his fighter feats on a daily basis, good will instead of fort, and the same BAB. He also has more WBL since he doesn't need to buy a +6 str item(he's casting Divine Power). He also still has *spells*, since I didn't touch 5th, 6th, or 7th lvl spell slots at all in this analysis(used all 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 8th and 9th, though). Is this better than a 'standard' fighter? Probably. Is it even optimized at what its trying to do? Nope! I specifically ignored many common TO and PO techniques, to make the comparison more poignant. This build doesn't reduce metamagic costs. It doesn't prestige. It doesn't use golem manuals to make cheap golems cheaper than a fighter can. It doesn't dip. It doesn't even use true 9th level spells. It does nothing but be a wizard who's just a little bit better than a fighter.


Either way, Wraithstrike is just a 2nd level spell. If you are going melee, cast at the beginning of your turn. Save your high-level slots for stuff like quickened dimension door or the like.

For a gish(which a "Beating a fighter at his game" wizard basically is), persistent wraithstrike is considered standard at the least, and OP by some.

You're also overloading the action economy with non-persistent wraithstrike + quickened dim door, since you've now already got 2 places to spend your 1 swift action. And if you're a conjurer, you've got a third as well, in abrupt jaunt. That's the true beauty of persistent spells: No strain to your action economy.

Greenish
2010-10-03, 03:00 PM
I have a level 5 Wizard build that was made for one of the duals these threads like to generate. I built him to out fight the Fighter (I mean, it's too easy to just do the normal Wizard thing). The other guy never showed up after our level 1 dual so I never got to use my level 5 Wizard.

If someone wants to make a Level 5 Fighter, I wouldn't mind fighting you. Think it was 32 pt buy, no flaws, standard WBL. I'd check the specifics if somone accepted. And if no one accepts, I'll just post the link to the build here.Level 5 is when wizard gets 3rd level spells, while the fighter gets… nothing. Wouldn't level 6 be more fair?

Koury
2010-10-03, 03:11 PM
Level 5 is when wizard gets 3rd level spells, while the fighter gets… nothing. Wouldn't level 6 be more fair?

Sure, I'll take an extra level. You accepting the offer? :smallbiggrin: The idea at the time was a level 1, 5, 10 and 15 fight. I didn't pick the levels I don't think. *shrug*

Here is the level 1 fight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168056). Pretty standard stuff (Basically Color Spray to the face, end game).

Greenish
2010-10-03, 03:22 PM
Sure, I'll take an extra level. You accepting the offer?Hmm, I doubt my measly opti-fu can make it any good, so I think I'll pass.

Milskidasith
2010-10-03, 03:32 PM
It is. Normal dimension door causes an attack of opportunity.


Defensive Casting. And yes, the fighter can have a feat to negate that... but feats, even for a fighter, aren't really common enough to assume he can have every feat ever.


And is saying 'you can outfight him if you actually suck at being a Wizard' a good idea? Because that's basically the point we are at.

You don't have to suck at being a wizard. The entire point is "can a wizard be built to out melee a fighter." Saying "You should just throw around SoDs" is absolutely pointless, and it's basically all you've been doing. Yes, playing a non-gish wizard who wades into melee is not a smart idea... but the point is to show it can actually work, not to say "You shouldn't be playing that way, it makes you a bad wizard!"

Eloel
2010-10-03, 04:06 PM
Sure, I'll take an extra level. You accepting the offer? :smallbiggrin: The idea at the time was a level 1, 5, 10 and 15 fight. I didn't pick the levels I don't think. *shrug*

Here is the level 1 fight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168056). Pretty standard stuff (Basically Color Spray to the face, end game).
I'll go ahead and say that the only non fullcaster that has a shot at beating a wizard tweaked for an arena setting at any level is an artificer. And even that only after 5-6 levels.

WinWin
2010-10-03, 05:24 PM
The wizards grappling options are superior to those of the fighter. The fighter can attempt a maneuver...

The wizard can cast babau slime, which damages regardless of whether their grapple action is successful. Balor Nimbus and Body of the Sun are similar effects which damage grapplers regardless of the grapple roll.

Don't even get me started on effects like Bladeweave or the Karmic line of spells.

Besides. Everyone knows Talashtora Psywars are the best grapplers.

Lans
2010-10-03, 06:07 PM
I'll go ahead and say that the only non fullcaster that has a shot at beating a wizard tweaked for an arena setting at any level is an artificer. And even that only after 5-6 levels.

At low levels there is a chance based on the wizards rocket not working. Deformity Madness trumps most wizards antifighter spells, glitter dust gets messed with by tremor sense or something.

Lans
2010-10-03, 06:08 PM
For grappling:
Fighter:
- +4Str
- +1BAB
- +4 impgrapple
- +4 jormiwhatever

Wizard:
- +2Str (assuming other stats are just as important - like Con for his d4's).
- +4 impgrapple
- +4 jormiwhatever
- +3 octopus familiar

Still puts them at equal. Throw in a single round for Enlarge Person or a wizard that can afford higher in Strength and he wins.

Also, I'd agree that persisted wraithstrike is an excellent use of an 8th level slot. You're cutting almost everyone's armor down by at least 4 or 5 by the time you get to use it, and often more like 10+. There's a reason it borders on unallowably-broken.
Doesn't the wizard have one too many feats? Or are we using flaws? Because the fighter should have a feat to grab shape soulmeld or something to narrow the difference.

lsfreak
2010-10-03, 06:09 PM
Besides. Everyone knows Talashtora Psywars are the best grapplers.

Iirc, totemists/totem ragers can give them a serious run for their money. But it's definitely one of the two.

EDIT:
Doesn't the wizard have one too many feats? Or are we using flaws? Because the fighter should have a feat to grab shape soulmeld or something to narrow the difference.
Yea, you're right. I forgot about IUS being a prereq, because... well, because it's a stupid prereq and I always forget it :smalltongue: So if the wizard has a single round to buff, they're tied, with wizard winning if he can afford higher stats (which he can, with the numbers being thrown around for the fighter).

true_shinken
2010-10-03, 06:26 PM
Sure, I'll take an extra level. You accepting the offer? :smallbiggrin: The idea at the time was a level 1, 5, 10 and 15 fight. I didn't pick the levels I don't think. *shrug*

Here is the level 1 fight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168056). Pretty standard stuff (Basically Color Spray to the face, end game).

If it's not core-only, I believe the Fighter has a chance.
Core-only, it's instant death, period.

Eldariel
2010-10-03, 06:34 PM
Yea, you're right. I forgot about IUS being a prereq, because... well, because it's a stupid prereq and I always forget it :smalltongue: So if the wizard has a single round to buff, they're tied, with wizard winning if he can afford higher stats (which he can, with the numbers being thrown around for the fighter).

Eh, well, Martial Wizard does exist...

JonestheSpy
2010-10-03, 06:36 PM
Just out of curiosity, I rather wonder how all this would play out if one restricted it to SRD only. Seems a lot harder until one hits the ability to cast Shapechange if you lose the cheese.

Greenish
2010-10-03, 06:37 PM
Just out of curiosity, I rather wonder how all this would play out if one restricted it to SRD only. Seems a lot harder until one hits the ability to cast Shapechange if you lose the cheese.Well, fighter arguably loses more. Core feats are rather limited.

Eldariel
2010-10-03, 06:47 PM
Well, fighter arguably loses more. Core feats are rather limited.

Polymorph is amazing. Enlarge Person, Animal Buffs, Heroism, etc. is 10 min/level. Alter Self too. Mage Armor, False Life, Greater Magic Weapon, etc. 1 hour/level. Buffs can be shared.

In Core, Fighter's feats amount to +little in something in Core; Wizard can get the most important ones just as well as a Fighter can. Wizard still has the best spells in the game. Polymorph alone is so huge; an insane Str buff (makes Wizard's base Str irrelevant), AC buff (Natural Armor is nice and there are no normal sources of it), and access to some strange movement modes and attacks.

Sure, you can't quad-wield with it but you still get all natural weapons which is what you care about. 12 Bites off a Hydra or just Remorhaz's hard bite or some such is plenty; no need for weapons at that point. And all those forms make Wizard's buff spells all the more powerful and the 10 min/level and hour/level tend to be more or less doable as active before encounter. Having just +4 to everything on top of a Polymorph tends to be more than enough to beat Fighters.

lsfreak
2010-10-03, 06:49 PM
Eh, well, Martial Wizard does exist...

Oh right, that why I did that. I managed to forget in the intervening... couple hours :smallsigh:

JonestheSpy
2010-10-03, 06:50 PM
Well, fighter arguably loses more. Core feats are rather limited.

Are you kidding? Go back and read the thread. I believe there was one non-core suggestion for the fighter to up his grappling, and a gazillion persisted wraithy octopus cheddar on rye suggestions for the wizard.

Koury
2010-10-03, 06:52 PM
If it's not core-only, I believe the Fighter has a chance.
Core-only, it's instant death, period. Oh, I totally forgot that was a SRD only fight! We did that because my opponent didn't have access to books, if I recall correctly. I know Fighters gain more from breaking from core/SRD, but yeah, I'd love to break from core if for no other reason then i always feel so stifled in core only.


Just out of curiosity, I rather wonder how all this would play out if one restricted it to SRD only. Seems a lot harder until one hits the ability to cast Shapechange if you lose the cheese.

My level 5 Wizard is SRD only (and I'm on the verge of posting him, it seems no one is interested in a dual. I'm not trying to prove anything with the fight, other then it's Sunday and I'm bored :smalltongue:). Hes also not terribly optimized, if I recall correctly. But I think he'd win against any SRD Fighter almost everytime. :smallsmile:

And as to Ozguns assertation, there is no shortage of people willing to argue otherwise, though I tend to agree. Of course, like I said, I'm more interested in passing time then proving anything. :smallsmile:

Greenish
2010-10-03, 06:54 PM
My level 5 Wizard is SRD only (and I'm on the verge of posting him, it seems no one is interested in a dual.Actually, I scrapped together a sad excuse for a fighter, but he's by no means a core-only. Still, I could give it a shot. :smallwink:

Koury
2010-10-03, 06:56 PM
Actually, I scrapped together a sad excuse for a fighter, but he's by no means a core-only. Still, I could give it a shot. :smallwink:

Yay, a fight! Are you level 5 or 6? Actualy, you can be level 6 if you prefer, I think I can handle it at level 5. I'll edit in a link to a thread in one sec.

Greenish
2010-10-03, 06:59 PM
Yay, a fight! Are you level 5 or 6? Actualy, you can be level 6 if you prefer, I think I can handle it at level 5. I'll edit in a link to a thread in one sec.My fighter is level 6, and borrows from the length and breath of 3.5.

He's named Buster, after the test dummy in Mythbusters, which shows how optimistic I am. :smallcool:

Koury
2010-10-03, 07:02 PM
I'll edit in a link to a thread in one sec.

I lied about this part (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9475876#post9475876).

Anyone willing to adjucate this skirmish?

PS: I love MythBusters. It's SCIENCE!

Eldariel
2010-10-03, 07:05 PM
Are you kidding? Go back and read the thread. I believe there was one non-core suggestion for the fighter to up his grappling, and a gazillion persisted wraithy octopus cheddar on rye suggestions for the wizard.

...because out-of-Core Fighter actually does something so there's some point to the comparison; a non-Core Fighter should be able to one-shot kill a Wizard of equivalent level if he lands a hit and the Wizard isn't immune/highly resistant through one of the hundreds of ways. As such, it's worth exploring if Wizard is capable of the same (obviously defensively Wizard wins since the class actually has defensive class features in spells).

WinWin
2010-10-03, 07:19 PM
Out of core? Heart of Water can shut down a grappling fighter while enabling the wizard to grapple. A level 3 spell from a line of decent combat buff spells. Any TOS featuring a grappling wizard vs. a grappling fighter is resolved with a swift action.

Godskook
2010-10-03, 07:28 PM
Are you kidding? Go back and read the thread. I believe there was one non-core suggestion for the fighter to up his grappling, and a gazillion persisted wraithy octopus cheddar on rye suggestions for the wizard.

Wizards aren't just made of the good, sharp, really sharp, white Vermont cheddar. There's also sharp cheddar, medium cheddar and American cheese(yes, its a cheddar, but barely). And that's just talking about the cheddar!

Coidzor
2010-10-03, 07:29 PM
I've always wondered why cheddar is like, the default cheese...:smallconfused:

JonestheSpy
2010-10-03, 08:59 PM
I've always wondered why cheddar is like, the default cheese...:smallconfused:

It's the single most popular cheese in the world! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3KBuQHHKx0)
Sorry, couldn't resist.

Eloel
2010-10-04, 12:29 AM
At low levels there is a chance based on the wizards rocket not working. Deformity Madness trumps most wizards antifighter spells, glitter dust gets messed with by tremor sense or something.

At exactly level 1, Wizard can dish out 2 negative levels with auto-hits if he puts his mind to it. (Fell Drain/Practical Metamagic/Sonic Snap) Make one of those spells into Expeditious Retreat, and he has double the fighter's speed too.

At exactly level 5, Wízard is completely unbeatable by anything that can't fly or cast spells. (Fly/Wind Wall)

We all know that at higher levels, non-casters do not stand any chance.


Doesn't the wizard have one too many feats? Or are we using flaws? Because the fighter should have a feat to grab shape soulmeld or something to narrow the difference.

Fighter feat variant. So the Wizard gets Fighter's shtick AND spells.


Just out of curiosity, I rather wonder how all this would play out if one restricted it to SRD only. Seems a lot harder until one hits the ability to cast Shapechange if you lose the cheese.

Contrary to popular belief, limiting it to core only makes the difference more pronounced. Most broken Wiz spells are in core.



And as to Ozguns assertation, there is no shortage of people willing to argue otherwise, though I tend to agree. Of course, like I said, I'm more interested in passing time then proving anything.

Passing time sounds like the aim. As much as I love 3.5, if someone learns how broken 3.5 is in the process - yay.

JonestheSpy
2010-10-04, 12:49 AM
At exactly level 5, Wízard is completely unbeatable by anything that can't fly or cast spells. (Fly/Wind Wall)


Yet another one of those silly internet myths that doesn't hold up upon examination. You do know that Wind Wall works for all of one round per level and has to be along the ground, right?

As for Core vs non-Core, we've seen the suggestion of one dumb obscure feat I've never heard of before, vs tons o' cheese, much of which is incredibly common in these discussions because it's ridiculously overpowered - persist spell feats, celerity, wraithstrike, etc.

Anyway, if you were actually paying attention, the discussion was wizards trying to out-melee fighters, which as I've said is highly unlikely within the SRD until the Wiz gets Shapechange.

Eloel
2010-10-04, 12:53 AM
Yet another one of those silly internet myths that doesn't hold up upon examination. You do know that Wind Wall works for all of one round per level and has to be along the ground, right?

5 rounds is long enough (remember the 1 negative level per round?). It's a minimum of 25ft high, so you can fly out of melee reach while still being on the 'other' side of the wall.

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-04, 12:54 AM
Or, y'know, just Fly, drop Protection from Arrows, and nuke the fools below you to taste. Use your crossbow when you run out of damage spells, call it a day.

JonestheSpy
2010-10-04, 12:59 AM
Or, y'know, just Fly, drop Protection from Arrows, and nuke the fools below you to taste. Use your crossbow when you run out of damage spells, call it a day.

Right, cause no 5th level character is going to have enchanted missle weapons.

Koury
2010-10-04, 01:29 AM
Anyway, if you were actually paying attention, the discussion was wizards trying to out-melee fighters, which as I've said is highly unlikely within the SRD until the Wiz gets Shapechange.

This part I disagree with.

Here is a level 5 Wizard (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=239638). The Wizard is SRD only. Show me a level 5 or 6 fighter who can beat him in a fight.

(HP is maxed due to the situation he was created for calling for it, but maxed HP favors fighters anyway)

senrath
2010-10-04, 01:32 AM
Right, cause no 5th level character is going to have enchanted missle weapons.

At level 5? Probably not, actually, unless they're specifically going for ranged above melee.

Eloel
2010-10-04, 01:40 AM
This part I disagree with.

Here is a level 5 Wizard (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=239638). The Wizard is SRD only. Show me a level 5 or 6 fighter who can beat him in a fight.

(HP is maxed due to the situation he was created for calling for it, but maxed HP favors fighters anyway)

Is it out-meleeing if you use Glitterdust & Ray of Exhaustion? I'm getting a bit shaky on what we call 'melee only'

senrath
2010-10-04, 01:42 AM
In the last fight that character was in, neither of those spells were used and the wizard still won.

Eloel
2010-10-04, 01:46 AM
In the last fight that character was in, neither of those spells were used and the wizard still won.

Actually, if it's 'nothing but melee to attack', Wiz (with different build) still wins.. Fly. Enlarge Person. Spiked Chain. Laugh hysterically.

If SoSs are usable, it gets ridiculous.

WinWin
2010-10-04, 01:46 AM
For less than the cost of a magic weapon, a wizard can have 3 scrolls of Polymorph self. Or a wand of grease and 2 scrolls of Polymorph. Pew-Pew.

Koury
2010-10-04, 01:55 AM
Is it out-meleeing if you use Glitterdust & Ray of Exhaustion? I'm getting a bit shaky on what we call 'melee only'


In the last fight that character was in, neither of those spells were used and the wizard still won.

Indeed, senrath is correct (Link to the fight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9475876#post9475876), even though its already linked here). If it makes you feel better, change those two spells to True Strike.

WinWin
2010-10-04, 02:15 AM
Out of curiosity, how does Mage Slayer hold up in peoples experience? (TOS or otherwise)

Coidzor
2010-10-04, 02:47 AM
Well, that was fun to watch, though I'm not really clear on the fighter build.

Greenish
2010-10-04, 03:26 AM
Well, that was fun to watch, though I'm not really clear on the fighter build.Yeah, twf sword&board…

Not that it'd have made much of difference to any other combination, except I'd have died earlier without the shield.

Koury
2010-10-04, 03:34 AM
Yeah, twf sword&board…

Not that it'd have made much of difference to any other combination, except I'd have died earlier without the shield.

Without that crit I scored, I'm fairly certain you'd have hit me once or twice before I got you. Barring a crit of your own, however, I think my 42 HP would have carried me through with little issue though.

Wings of Peace
2010-10-04, 04:46 AM
Personally, I'm a fan of Celestial Attended Birth + Otherworldly + Alter Self as an early level AC buff for my casters. +18 nat ac is pretty nice early on.

Greenish
2010-10-04, 05:13 AM
Without that crit I scored, I'm fairly certain you'd have hit me once or twice before I got you. Barring a crit of your own, however, I think my 42 HP would have carried me through with little issue though.Yeah, even without True Strikes it'd have been my +10/+5, 1d8+3 tickles against your 24 AC, and your +11 2d6+12 against my 24 AC.

Though I'm only getting your to-hit as +10, and you forgot to increase your scythe's damage when you enlarged yourself. :smalltongue:

Koury
2010-10-04, 05:44 AM
Though I'm only getting your to-hit as +10, and you forgot to increase your scythe's damage when you enlarged yourself. :smalltongue:

Yeah, I forgot to increase damage. AB breakdown was as follows:

+7 Str (19 base, +2 Enlarge Person, +4 Bull's Str)
+2 BAB
+1 Weapon Focus
+2 GMW
-1 Size

Out of curiosity, would the increased damage have killed you? The crit would have done an average of 8 more damage, I think.

Greenish
2010-10-04, 05:48 AM
Yeah, I forgot to increase damage. AB breakdown was as follows:

+7 Str (19 base, +2 Enlarge Person, +4 Bull's Str)
+2 BAB
+1 Weapon Focus
+2 GMW
-1 SizeGMW is +1/4 CL. How'd you get CL 8?
Out of curiosity, would the increased damage have killed you? The crit would have done an average of 8 more damage, I think.I had 11 hp left after the crit as it was, so it might've.

Koury
2010-10-04, 06:10 AM
GMW is +1/4 CL. How'd you get CL 8?

Because I was thinking 1+1/4 CL.

So, yeah, it was +10. :smallredface:

Otodetu
2010-10-04, 07:26 AM
Guess this is pretty clear then.

The wizard is able to do fighty stuff is setup for it, and still be able to contribute with spelly stuff when needed.

Why do we still have threads about this? (It is facinating to read, i have to agree to that.)

Lans
2010-10-04, 04:48 PM
At exactly level 1, Wizard can dish out 2 negative levels with auto-hits if he puts his mind to it. (Fell Drain/Practical Metamagic/Sonic Snap) Make one of those spells into Expeditious Retreat, and he has double the fighter's speed too. Mark V smash! Warforged are immune to a lot of things.


At exactly level 5, Wízard is completely unbeatable by anything that can't fly or cast spells. (Fly/Wind Wall) So how is he surviving 1000 javelins being thrown at him?




Contrary to popular belief, limiting it to core only makes the difference more pronounced. Most broken Wiz spells are in core.
I think Core Wiz vs *Fighter comes the closest.

dextercorvia
2010-10-04, 05:05 PM
At exactly level 1, Wizard can dish out 2 negative levels with auto-hits if he puts his mind to it. (Fell Drain/Practical Metamagic/Sonic Snap) Make one of those spells into Expeditious Retreat, and he has double the fighter's speed too.



You need Easy Metamagic for this -- A Wizard1 doesn't meet the prereq's for Practical Metamagic. Easy has the downside of being Dragon Mag.

Tael
2010-10-04, 05:18 PM
Ah, I remember my level 10 Incantarix, who knew nothing but buff spells. I'm pretty sure I could have survived without a scratch even if I was mysteriously teleported into abyss, with readied attacks by 5 balors. Unfortunately, by popular consensus, he was forcibly retired...

Koury
2010-10-04, 05:21 PM
So how is he surviving 1000 javelins being thrown at him?

Flying slightly higher?

Urpriest
2010-10-04, 06:20 PM
I think Core Wiz vs *Fighter comes the closest.

Well rather. Starfighters can kick a Core Wizard's butt if they haven't prepared Anticipate Hyperjump.

Oh wait, that's not what *Fighter means?

The White Knight
2010-10-04, 06:33 PM
I think Core Wiz vs *Fighter comes the closest.

I am thrilled to see the splat operator used in this context. First time I've seen that before. I have to admit, it took me a second.

Carry on.

Koury
2010-10-04, 06:34 PM
For what its worth, the Wizard I used in the previously linked fight was core and the fighter was not.

Lans
2010-10-04, 07:04 PM
Yeah, but when I say *fighter I mean use damn near every trick to get more power, such as flaws, traits, infernal pacts, and taint. As well as breadth of sources such as magic of incarnum to get get rocket resistance.

This just keeps the fighter from getting gated at the local level. Might get some midrange action and high level the wizard is still going to curbstomp.

Valameer
2010-10-04, 07:09 PM
That fight didn't convince me, sorry.

Greenish used a pretty basic fighter vs a mage built to fight. Even if it was core vs. non-core, you could tell one guy was there to win that specific encounter (the wizard) and one guy was just happy participating (the fighter).

I'd like to see a core fighter built with the intention of defeating this wizard. I think it would rely a lot more on the luck of the dice than the previous fight did... though the dice *also* favoured the wizard.

Also - Greenish, what were you thinking letting the wizard buff up? That's like... his one weakness! :smallsmile:

Wizard may still win, but I think the fight would be closer if done with more attention to detail. Also - notice that the wizard can only do this type of fight ONCE per day? In theory that doesn't matter - in an actual game, you've neutered yourself.

(Also, please, no offense to Greenish who's Buster admirably represented the average sword and board fighter type. He just brought a fighter to a spell fight. :smallbiggrin:)

Koury
2010-10-04, 07:33 PM
That fight didn't convince me, sorry.

Greenish used a pretty basic fighter vs a mage built to fight. Even if it was core vs. non-core, you could tell one guy was there to win that specific encounter (the wizard) and one guy was just happy participating (the fighter).

I'd like to see a core fighter built with the intention of defeating this wizard. I think it would rely a lot more on the luck of the dice than the previous fight did... though the dice *also* favoured the wizard. I'm accepting any other challengers. By all means, build a fighter. Look at my sheet and build to counter me specifically. (I enjoy the duals :smallsmile: It's not a personal "Rawr, I can't be beat!" thing)


Also - Greenish, what were you thinking letting the wizard buff up? That's like... his one weakness! :smallsmile: Between invisibility and flight, I can take as much time to buff as I please.


Wizard may still win, but I think the fight would be closer if done with more attention to detail. Also - notice that the wizard can only do this type of fight ONCE per day? In theory that doesn't matter - in an actual game, you've neutered yourself. A level 6 fighter is CR 6. A group of 4 level 6 Wizards should be able to fight 4 of them per day. I was not only level 5 and alone, but still had spells left (and all of my HP).

awa
2010-10-04, 07:49 PM
ive never done one of these but i think i would like to give a level 6 fighter a try it was 32 point buy, normal wealth all sources right. just give me a bit to make a fighter

Koury
2010-10-04, 07:51 PM
ive never done one of these but i think i would like to give a level 6 fighter a try it was 32 point buy, normal wealth all sources right. just give me a bit to make a fighter

Max HP also. We can use the same thread as before. Anyone up for adjucating?

Valameer
2010-10-04, 08:20 PM
Koury, Half of me wants to take you up on the offer, but the other half (having read some of the duels) is so lost on those threads that I would embarrass myself, for sure. :smallsmile:

It's no competition, and I did say (and do think) the wizard would win more often. But at what cost, oh gods, at what cost!?

Err... I mean, the cleric can restore the fighters resources a few times a day (hp) whereas only sleep can make the wizard tip top to do it all again.

Plus, what's happening to your party while your are invisible-fly buffing?

I do think the fighter is more equipped to FIGHT at level 5. "Fighting" being fairly subjective. In my experience, it's getting in the enemies face, wasting his actions, depleting his hit points, and surviving. As many times a day as possible. :smallwink:

Perhaps I could build a core fighter for someone else to use? Knowing the battle map - I'm thinking more HPs, less armor, and a big run and jump check to catch the wizard quickly? Some grapple and armor spikes beyond that... power attack and a greatsword as a backup plan if you lose init. Oh, and thunderstones/tanglefoot bags? Disarm on a ranseur? A few potions of invisibility or fly, and let some of his buffs wear off?

*shrug* I'm new at this.

Koury
2010-10-04, 08:30 PM
Koury, Half of me wants to take you up on the offer, but the other half (having read some of the duels) is so lost on those threads that I would embarrass myself, for sure. :smallsmile: Don't not play because you feel new! Jump in! I'll gladly do what I can to help you learn the ropes here. Like I said, I like the fights. I'm not trying to do anything other then get to fight some duals. :smallsmile:


It's no competition, and I did say (and do think) the wizard would win more often. But at what cost, oh gods, at what cost!?

Err... I mean, the cleric can restore the fighters resources a few times a day (hp) whereas only sleep can make the wizard tip top to do it all again. Wizards need rest, not sleep. But after a certain point Wizards really never run out of spells either way. Of course, level 5 isn't really that point. :smallbiggrin:


Plus, what's happening to your party while your are invisible-fly buffing? I have a party sunddenly? :smallamused:


I do think the fighter is more equipped to FIGHT at level 5. "Fighting" being fairly subjective. In my experience, it's getting in the enemies face, wasting his actions, depleting his hit points, and surviving. As many times a day as possible. :smallwink: Wait a sec, I litterally only attacked Buster with my scythe. What else do you want? :smallmad: (:smallwink:)


Perhaps I could build a core fighter for someone else to use? Knowing the battle map - I'm thinking more HPs, less armor, and a big run and jump check to catch the wizard quickly? Some grapple and armor spikes beyond that... power attack and a greatsword as a backup plan if you lose init. Oh, and thunderstones/tanglefoot bags? Disarm on a ranseur? A few potions of invisibility or fly, and let some of his buffs wear off?

*shrug* I'm new at this.

My buffs all last much longer then your potions. Plus, you know, I can See Invisibility. :smallbiggrin:

But seriously, make a guy with whatever sources you're comfortable with using. Step on up with him and see how it goes. Its a demonstration, in a way, sure, but its also fun to play. :smallsmile:

Valameer
2010-10-04, 08:43 PM
I have a party sunddenly?


Wait a sec, I litterally only attacked Buster with my scythe. What else do you want? ()

I completely concede :smallsmile:. To be fair, I wasn't supposed to be addressing you specifically, but more the subject in the OP. I'm sorry I wasn't very clear.

You did an admirable amount of face-smashing! :smallsmile:

Of course, that fly potion was a pretty half-baked idea. 3 minute invisibility and 5 minute fly are just a waste of resources. I suddenly got this idea about a fighter out-wizarding the out-fighting wizard. :smallbiggrin:

Bad form, given the experiment.

If this thread is still going tomorrow, I will feebly try to learn how to participate in those duelling threads and give you a shot. I can really see it mostly coming down to init (just like so many other duels.)

Koury
2010-10-04, 08:49 PM
If this thread is still going tomorrow, I will feebly try to learn how to participate in those duelling threads and give you a shot. I can really see it mostly coming down to init (just like so many other duels.)

Take the 1st turn. Dont think I need it either way.

awa
2010-10-04, 09:30 PM
okay i think im ready keep in mind i have not used the duel aspect of the forums before

Tyndmyr
2010-10-04, 09:33 PM
Can a wizard optimize to beat a fighter head to head? Yes, because this requires only finding spells that make up the attack, ac, and hp differences. If feats are a major factor, the wizard can utilize heroics for the necessary fighter feat of the day. It's all about the buffs.

Now, at low levels it's not practical. You can't make up the HP. The AC, sure. mage armor and shield are more than enough. A true strike gives you a solid initial hit, sure, but with typical wizard strength, it's not enough to ensure a kill, and the selection of long duration spells that boost melee are a bit weak.

You *could* invest in str as heavily as a fighter, but that means making yourself a bad wizard. No, no, the correct way to approach the challenge is to make yourself into a good fighter by being a good wizard. Int, Con, and Dex, as per usual. If you swing decent dex, you'll have significantly higher AC than him at first, since good armor is so darned expensive. Small is a plus for casters. Higher AC and attack is great. Sure, you suffer on melee damage, but that's no biggie.

Now, consider the line of Protection spells. All level 1, last for minute/level, so a valid tactic even at level 1, where short duration spells like shield are problematic. So, with shield, mage armor, and prot against X up, your core only wizard can manage AC 20 + dex mod(at least +2). This is pretty decent. If you can keep shield up, you can basically ensure that you have a better chance to hit him than vice versa. You also have magic weapon. This isn't a guarantee, but it really isn't bad.


As you get higher, prot: arrows makes ranged dueling a lot more fun. Generally, the wizard will use a crossbow, making his terrible str a non-issue. With tumbling bolts, this can be a decent damage source. Invisibility can ensure the caster always gets to initiate combat, which is pretty handy in itself. More importantly, you get the various +4 stat buffs. This further increases AC, hp, attack bonus, and if you're meleeing, damage.

+4 Con essentially makes the wizard a d8 compared to the fighters D10. The fort save boost is also handy for closing the gap, in the unlikely event it's relevant.

+4 Dex gives another +2 AC, enabling the wizard to remain solidly ahead of the fighter. The +2 on ranged attacks means that the wizard is just as reliable a shot as the full BaB classes. Together with prot: arrows, this makes a ranged duel a solid wizard win.

+4 Str gives +2 hit, and +3 damage on yer favorite 2h weapon. Again, compensates for lower BaB, and the extra damage is welcome.

It's not a 100% wizard win at level 3, but it's certainly already imbalanced. Oh, and let's not forget mirror image, which basically gives you free hits.

Now, at level 5, you have Heroism. Together with the +stat buff earlier, this means you still aren't behind on attack. Plus, your saves and skills rock. Together with your high dex, you can probably tumble decently well without serious skill investment. More importantly, you get Haste. It solves the iterative problem, and further boosts attack and AC. A rod of extend would not be amiss, when available. Keen edge is also a handy choice. Things like Blink and Fly entirely change the battlefield, but might not be considered properly fighter-styled.

Level 7. Stoneskin, Fire Shield...hitting you is barely beneficial for the fighter at all. Sure, he's doing more than stoneskin + fire shield damage, but barely.
Greater Invisibility. Well, hitting you is less likely. You now happily ignore his dex. Hitting him is no longer an issue. Durations are not so problematic any more, and you can pretty merrily beat him into the ground. Mirror image has gotten pretty awesome, so seeing you makes it no easier for him to hit you. And that's before you start the polymorph cheese. It goes downhill from there.

Level 7 is roughly the point at which I'd say the fighter is pretty roundly screwed if the wizard decides to buff up and trade blows with him. Before then, durations are problematic, and spell selection is somewhat lower(albeit less so outside of core). It's still not SAFE for the fighter, but he at least has a shot.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-04, 10:12 PM
I know this is a thread about fighters, buy Koury, how do you feel about fighting with your melee mage against other warrior classes?

Koury
2010-10-04, 10:21 PM
Er, depends. I'd think ToB would get me pretty good, for instance. Besides, Its not exactly an optimized build (Toughness! Weapon Focus! Weapon Prof!). :smallbiggrin:

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-04, 10:28 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of Ranger, paladi, barb

Koury
2010-10-04, 10:30 PM
Oh, sure why not. :smallsmile:

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-04, 10:32 PM
I don't have the time right now, but if you are still up to it tomorrow, I'll throw a barbarian or a ranger tomorrow night.

Stupid school...depriving me from my D&D duels...

Koury
2010-10-04, 10:40 PM
Thats ok, I'm fighting a goblin fighter right now anyway. :smallsmile:

OracleofWuffing
2010-10-05, 12:41 AM
Of course, that fly potion was a pretty half-baked idea. 3 minute invisibility and 5 minute fly are just a waste of resources. I suddenly got this idea about a fighter out-wizarding the out-fighting wizard. :smallbiggrin:
You know, as long as this is theoretical optimization... There have been some... Strategies... Involving purchasing partially charged wands... At character creation... So you could... :smallsigh: Okay, sorry, I can't do this. But you know where I'm going.

Actually, I don't know, depending on how my job goes tomorrow, I might try making a UMD-Barbarian. But I think mentioning the strategy is enough to guarantee that it'd lose in play, as now you know not to let me buff up. :smalltongue:

misterk
2010-10-05, 05:36 AM
Whenever these kind of threads come up, I always feel like they miss the point. Pvp is a meaningless measure of how good a wizard is at being a fighter- the point surely is to be better at Pve (by fighting) than the fighter is, which I'd be surprised a wizard could do, because he/she'd burn through those spells which make him/her any good quite quickly

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-05, 05:45 AM
Okay, who's up for a PvE contest between a fightery Wizard and a Fighter?

Eloel
2010-10-05, 06:41 AM
Okay, who's up for a PvE contest between a fightery Wizard and a Fighter?

Tell me the level, the conditions (10 hour dungeoncrawl complete with traps? Waves of enemies in arena? Social encounters in a city?) , and I'll go make a wizard.

Greenish
2010-10-05, 08:39 AM
Greenish used a pretty basic fighter vs a mage built to fight. Even if it was core vs. non-core, you could tell one guy was there to win that specific encounter (the wizard) and one guy was just happy participating (the fighter).Well, I had quite a few defenses (mostly thanks to WBL) that didn't come online (bonus to saves vs. mind affecting, vs. energy drain, hitting outlines invisible targets, immunity to charms and compulsions, shield AC to touch AC).

The feats were bit too spread out and defense-oriented, I picked some cool shield feats and then was going for Mage Slayer, couldn't fit it in (though in the end it didn't matter), dropped that and just picked some other stuff.

The wizard's build was frankly a pile of manure, too.

[Edit]:
Also - Greenish, what were you thinking letting the wizard buff up? That's like... his one weakness! :smallsmile:Well, he had a bunch of buffs up when I got within range, and I wanted to get full attacks (my only strength). I was hoping he'd charge me, preferably before enlarging himself (readied action & 2 AoO).

But in the hindsight it was pretty silly. :smallredface:

[2.Edit]: Though if I'm not mistaken, it'd have taken at least two turns to get to charge distance on that map. Savvy choice when you don't want to just disable the fighter with your first action. :smallamused:

Koury
2010-10-05, 01:38 PM
The wizard's build was frankly a pile of manure, too. For the record, awa just pretty much smashed me in that same thread. I could beat him in a rematch, but it'd become counter-plan vs counter-plan. And I'd like to leave core with my Alter Self.


[2.Edit]: Though if I'm not mistaken, it'd have taken at least two turns to get to charge distance on that map. Savvy choice when you don't want to just disable the fighter with your first action. :smallamused:

I just like that map. One of my favorite arena maps. Any situation where I don't start in charge range is good enough for me though. :smallwink:

Greenish
2010-10-05, 02:17 PM
For the record, awa just pretty much smashed me in that same thread.I both saw and overlooked the Dastana and that other weird armour item. :smallconfused:

I don't think using Dissolving Spittle with Shot on the Run is legal, it's a standard action.


I do find it amusing that a wizard imitating fighter got beaten by a fighter imitating an incarnate. :smallamused:

[Edit]: Bonus Essentia requires a meldshaper level (it was 6-8, I seem to recall), and I don't think the Shape Soulmeld feats give that (at least, high enough).

Koury
2010-10-05, 02:26 PM
I don't think using Dissolving Spittle with Shot on the Run is legal, it's a standard action. That's a good point, but in the end, his AC was too damned high either way.


I do find it amusing that a wizard imitating fighter got beaten by a fighter imitating an incarnate. :smallamused: Everyone knows if you plan on fighting, Fighter is not the way to go. :smallbiggrin:


[Edit]: Bonus Essentia requires a meldshaper level (it was 6-8, I seem to recall), and I don't think the Shape Soulmeld feats give that (at least, high enough). Bonus Essentia requires character level 6 and 13 Con. Only thing I'm not sure about is how he could put two essentia in DS with a Meldshaper Level of 3. Or was that based on regular character level also?

Greenish
2010-10-05, 02:30 PM
Only thing I'm not sure about is how he could put two essentia in DS with a Meldshaper Level of 3. Or was that based on regular character level also?It's based on character level.

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-05, 02:32 PM
Tell me the level, the conditions (10 hour dungeoncrawl complete with traps? Waves of enemies in arena? Social encounters in a city?) , and I'll go make a wizard.

Heh... I have absolutely no idea. Was more of a suggestion than a challenge. >.>

Valameer
2010-10-05, 02:33 PM
That map is pretty big, with lots of room for the wizard to buff up.

Would the wizard be open to a duel on an even plane, facing each other, 20' apart?

If so, a see invisibility potion, ride skill, a horse and a lance will probably wipe him out in a hit or two. No where to run.

If he flies, well, a bow and a slaying arrow might do it. If not, why not punish him with some fireballs from a necklace, or javelins of lightning? Fighter has all those weapon profs, might as well switch it up.

Don't worry about your AC - it's a wizard, he'll hit you any way. Worry about getting right in his face and hacking before he's ready to hack you.

If he starts casting spells like glitterdust or web - well, this isn't really a fighty wizard anymore - but your best bet is to be a dwarf with the best cloak of resistance you can get, and take iron will, lightning reflexes and great fortitude.

You won't always win, but you won't always lose, either.

Eloel
2010-10-05, 02:34 PM
Heh... I have absolutely no idea. Was more of a suggestion than a challenge. >.>

Am bored, want to do something D&D related, and that sounds like the most fun option I have right now. So, I'm up for anything really :smallbiggrin:

Koury
2010-10-05, 02:52 PM
That map is pretty big, with lots of room for the wizard to buff up.

Would the wizard be open to a duel on an even plane, facing each other, 20' apart? Sure, though I must say, thats trying really hard to put the Wizard at as much disadvantage as possible.


If so, a see invisibility potion, ride skill, a horse and a lance will probably wipe him out in a hit or two. No where to run. I could fly. Or burrow. And there is no such thing as a Potion of See Invis.


If he flies, well, a bow and a slaying arrow might do it. If not, why not punish him with some fireballs from a necklace, or javelins of lightning? Fighter has all those weapon profs, might as well switch it up. Oh, you mentioned flying. Well, burrow, like I said. Plus Displacement. How much money are you going to waste on a 50% miss chance idea? (though level 6 gets a fair bit. +2 Armor and +2 Shield indeed. :smallwink:)


If he starts casting spells like glitterdust or web - well, this isn't really a fighty wizard anymore - but your best bet is to be a dwarf with the best cloak of resistance you can get, and take iron will, lightning reflexes and great fortitude.

You won't always win, but you won't always lose, either.

If hes not being a fighty wizard, you come pretty close to always losing, I'd think. :smallbiggrin: Besides, even for a fighter, all three save boosters at level 6 will eat your other options quickly.

Greenish
2010-10-05, 03:01 PM
How much money are you going to waste on a 50% miss chance idea?25gp, to remove the Displacement, Blur, Invisibility and so forth. :smallwink:

The range is admittedly bit of an issue, as is hitting a flyer with the stuff in the first place.

Valameer
2010-10-05, 03:24 PM
Most fights I've ever seen in a game do not start 100' apart in rough and random terrain. You should use a small tavern or an open road as the battlefield.

I don't see how this is "trying really hard to put the Wizard at as much disadvantage as possible." Often fights don't start at 100' past obstacles in my experience.

I wish my regular battle set up was as elaborate as that arena... but more often than not it's more like "20'x20' room. Stone walls, two doors, stuff. Initiative."

You feel the pressure that the wizard has a lot less options if the fighter starts in his face. (Say they were just chatting, and you already got all your 1 hour/level buffs up for the day. Seems reasonable.)

Fighters get skills like ride and handle animal - and those are fighty skills, so why not use them? A light war horse with horseshoes of speed moves at 90', which is enough to clear the arena in a double move anyway.

Ploymorph is well-known for it's abuse, but you've got me beat with your burrow speed. I'd need a pretty nifty item or some good cheese to beat that - so long as you didn't leave a hole. But if you didn't leave a hole, how are you casting somatic spells down there? :smallwink:

Oh, I've got it. An elemental gem with an earth elemental inside.

Anyway Koury, I don't mind admitting that your prepared wizardy-wizard has a big advantage vs my prepared fightery-fighter. :smallsmile: I don't think that a wizard could set up to beat a fighter every time, but maybe I'm wrong.

Let's see: A wizard's level 3 spell DC would be 20 with 20 int, spell focus and greater spell focus. He could get it up to 21 with fox's cunning.

A dwarf fighter would have Fort +13 Ref +10 Will +9 vs magic with 16 dex, 16 con, 14 wis, iron will, great fort, lightning ref, and a cloak of resistance +2. A potion of heroism would bump these up to Fort +15 Ref +12 Will +11.

Mounted fighter controls the speed of the battle, but wizard has tons of controlling options. Wizard probably wins, but maybe the fighter gets lucky. :smallbiggrin:

OracleofWuffing
2010-10-05, 03:55 PM
I wish my regular battle set up was as elaborate as that arena... but more often than not it's more like "20'x20' room. Stone walls, two doors, stuff. Initiative."
That map's actually from The Arena (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157601)... Arenas... So, perhaps you could take a look at those, and suggest one or two that you find a bit more appropriate?

That said, I find the concept of riding a warhorse in a 20x20ft room to be something that I'd do in a game. Not leaving much room for chairs, tables, or bartenders, are we?

Greenish
2010-10-05, 03:58 PM
That said, I find the concept of riding a warhorse in a 20x20ft room to be something that I'd do in a game. Not leaving much room for chairs, tables, or bartenders, are we?Bah, horse is just 10x10ft. There's plenty of space!

(Might want Tunnel Fighting & Tunnel Riding with that.)

OracleofWuffing
2010-10-05, 04:18 PM
Not enough room? My place is two cubic meters, and we only take up 1.5 cubic meters. We've got room for a whole 'nother two thirds of a person! :smallbiggrin:

Koury
2010-10-05, 04:24 PM
Most fights I've ever seen in a game do not start 100' apart in rough and random terrain. You should use a small tavern or an open road as the battlefield. Tavern means you're not mounted, and I'm not chatting with a hostile Fighter at 20' on an open road. :smallbiggrin:


I don't see how this is "trying really hard to put the Wizard at as much disadvantage as possible." Often fights don't start at 100' past obstacles in my experience. The only worse situation I could think of is starting combat pre-grappled. But as long as I get an action, I should be able to win anyway, really. Whats your charges average damage? I have 41 HP, I think. Not a terribly hard target, I know, but still. Plus I gotta lose initiative.


I wish my regular battle set up was as elaborate as that arena... but more often than not it's more like "20'x20' room. Stone walls, two doors, stuff. Initiative." There are a lot of other arenas I could have picked from the GitP Arena here, I just picked that one cuz I like it personally. It has a good "wandering through the woods and see an enemy" feel, in my opinion. Not because it gave any particular advantage.:smallsmile:


You feel the pressure that the wizard has a lot less options if the fighter starts in his face. (Say they were just chatting, and you already got all your 1 hour/level buffs up for the day. Seems reasonable.) No, I feel that being 20' apart is putting me squarely in the Fighters domain, and tipping scales in his favor. However, like I said before, assuming I get an action, I should be fine.


Fighters get skills like ride and handle animal - and those are fighty skills, so why not use them? A light war horse with horseshoes of speed moves at 90', which is enough to clear the arena in a double move anyway. So the arena isn't that big a problem after all? :smalltongue:


Ploymorph is well-known for it's abuse, but you've got me beat with your burrow speed. I'd need a pretty nifty item or some good cheese to beat that - so long as you didn't leave a hole. But if you didn't leave a hole, how are you casting somatic spells down there? :smallwink: Because burrowing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#movementModes) doesn't impose any sort of penalty like that to my casting? It also doesn't leave a hole.


Oh, I've got it. An elemental gem with an earth elemental inside. If we use the one-shot adventure rules, thats basically all your WBL, but yeah, its an option.


Anyway Koury, I don't mind admitting that your prepared wizardy-wizard has a big advantage vs my prepared fightery-fighter. :smallsmile: I don't think that a wizard could set up to beat a fighter every time, but maybe I'm wrong.

Let's see: A wizard's level 3 spell DC would be 20 with 20 int, spell focus and greater spell focus. He could get it up to 21 with fox's cunning.

A dwarf fighter would have Fort +13 Ref +10 Will +9 vs magic with 16 dex, 16 con, 14 wis, iron will, great fort, lightning ref, and a cloak of resistance +2. A potion of heroism would bump these up to Fort +15 Ref +12 Will +11.

Mounted fighter controls the speed of the battle, but wizard has tons of controlling options. Wizard probably wins, but maybe the fighter gets lucky. :smallbiggrin: Well, I'd never say always. 20s and 1s still come up. But Wizard wins much more then 50%, I know that. :smalltongue: I mean, with all that pumping of saves, you still only save 45% of the time. And thats to avoid one spell. Sure hope I don't chose to summon, or Orb or whatever else.

But this is about Fight-y Wizards, not Wizard-y Wizards, so yeah. :smallsmile:

ffone
2010-10-05, 04:24 PM
Love the arena maps. What program (whether map/DnD specific or a general thing like Paint) was used to generate them?

Greenish
2010-10-05, 04:25 PM
Not enough room?That's not quite what I said.

There's plenty of space!:smallamused:

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-05, 04:43 PM
Do gish count?

OracleofWuffing
2010-10-05, 04:45 PM
That's not quite what I said.
:smallamused:
After seeing so many people here drop Futurama quotes, I reserve the right to drop a Futurama quote. :smallannoyed:

true_shinken
2010-10-05, 07:05 PM
The feats were bit too spread out and defense-oriented, I picked some cool shield feats and then was going for Mage Slayer, couldn't fit it in (though in the end it didn't matter), dropped that and just picked some other stuff.

Didn't matter? That plus Pierce Magical Protection and you would, ya know, hit.

Wings of Peace
2010-10-05, 07:31 PM
For those arguing the fighter as the superior "fighter" in PvE two questions. Is that opinion based around the assumption neither class is multi-classing? And does it account for a Wizard using persistent buffs?

Lans
2010-10-05, 09:20 PM
I don't think any one would argue that. Except maybe at very low level.

A party of fighters can likely do most dungeon crawls, but they have to be quite twinked out to do so.

misterk
2010-10-06, 05:16 AM
Both single class, but the wizard can cast buffs that make them better at fighting. I'd be inclined to suggest that invisibility (and mirror image excetera) is sort of not being figherish, but I can see the argument for them. An arena of some sort where they are faced with a number of varied encounters makes sense, with both having to defeat them as best they can- presumably around level 6ish as that seems to the metric

(was amused by the person upthread who suggested that level20 was a fair comparison between them. Yes, when the wizard effectively becomes a God, lets see if he can be a good fighter...)

Eloel
2010-10-06, 05:23 AM
(was amused by the person upthread who suggested that level20 was a fair comparison between them. Yes, when the wizard effectively becomes a God, lets see if he can be a good fighter...)

That might be referring to me, so I feel inclined to answer. A fair comparison involves all 20 levels (Epic doesn't exist. Let's pretend it doesn't.) If the Wizard can beat Fighter for all 20 levels, the result is clear. If not, the result gets blurry. Since 'full potential' tends to be L20, I started making my point from L20 (it's, coincidentally, also what people tend to uphold when talking about a '10 BAB' difference). It holds for all levels.

Greenish
2010-10-06, 07:07 AM
Didn't matter? That plus Pierce Magical Protection and you would, ya know, hit.I was more worried about misschances, which would've required three feats to counter. (Yeah, I ended up just picking the crushed bugs, but I only grabbed that when looking for ways to spend the last few gp. :smallredface:)

Yeah, so, it wasn't so well thought out. I don't do much duels.

[Edit]: And, of course, had I not had full hp from HD on each level, I also wouldn't have missed him with any attack. :smallamused:

Lans
2010-10-06, 03:09 PM
Can you put a link to your character?

Greenish
2010-10-06, 03:37 PM
Can you put a link to your character?Me?

It's here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=244673). I didn't meditate on it that much.

Roderick_BR
2010-10-06, 03:59 PM
Either way, Wraithstrike is just a 2nd level spell. If you are going melee, cast at the beginning of your turn. Save your high-level slots for stuff like quickened dimension door or the like.
Also, 'beating the fight at his own game' is risky, cost-intensive and not at all intelligent. A Wizard shouldn't do this. If something somehow pierces his defenses (not that hard when the Wizard is actually going mele - Pierce Magical Concealment + Pierce Magical Protection already deal with most stuff), you're royally screwed.
There is a reason why the Big Stupid Fighter archetype is called stupid, after all.
That's precisely the point. Defeat the fighter, at his own game, with a BAD build. Add insult to injury.

Sir Giacomo
2010-10-07, 01:18 PM
interesting thread...

Koury, would you like to fight a core (PHB/DMG/MM) 32pt buy level 5 fighter with usual wbl of mine? I'd suggest no polymorph buffs, though.

- Giacomo

Greenish
2010-10-07, 01:37 PM
Speaking of duels, Giacomo, what happened to the level 13 one between you and Doc Roc?

Koury
2010-10-07, 03:00 PM
interesting thread...

Koury, would you like to fight a core (PHB/DMG/MM) 32pt buy level 5 fighter with usual wbl of mine? I'd suggest no polymorph buffs, though.

- Giacomo

Sure, I enjoy duals. I'm not sure about you taking my Alter Self from me though, thats usually how I get my AC.

Also, we doing the standard 5:1 on consumables?

Sir Giacomo
2010-10-07, 03:08 PM
Sure, I enjoy duals. I'm not sure about you taking my Alter Self from me though, thats usually how I get my AC.

Also, we doing the standard 5:1 on consumables?

Yep, OK. Alter Self is in.
As is the 5:1 ratio.

Will probably be able to do a match during the weekend.

Seeya!

- Giacomo

Edit:


Speaking of duels, Giacomo, what happened to the level 13 one between you and Doc Roc?

It was level 20 and is still pending. Both Doc Roc and 9mm (DMing) are off for a while.

Koury
2010-10-07, 03:22 PM
Yep, OK. Alter Self is in.
As is the 5:1 ratio.

Will probably be able to do a match during the weekend.

Seeya!

- Giacomo

Well then, works for me.:smallsmile: Anyone feel like DMing this weekend?

JonestheSpy
2010-10-07, 03:41 PM
Having read the thread with the Greenish/Koury fight, the main impression I get is that Alter Self is a stupidly, stupidly broken spell. Interesting in that in its 1st edition form it was far far weaker, basically just a somewhat amped-up Disguise Self where the changes were semi-real. Makes one wonder why the designers chose to power it up so much while leaving so many other spells essentially the same.

In any case, as a DM I'd dial it back to it's former power level - it seems universally agreed that it's a broken spell. I do wonder how a duel would go without it, despite my opinion that duels are a completely inaccurate way to gauge power levels of different classes.

Koury
2010-10-07, 03:47 PM
Having read the thread with the Greenish/Koury fight, the main impression I get is that Alter Self is a stupidly, stupidly broken spell. Interesting in that in it's 1st edition form it was far far weaker, basically just a somewhat amped-up Disguise Self where the changes were semi-real. Makes one wonder why the designers chose to power it up so much while leaving so many other spells essentially the same.

In any case, as a DM I'd dial it back to it's former power level - it seems universally agreed that it's a broken spell. I do wonder how a duel would go without it, despite my opinion that duels are a completely inaccurate way to gauge power levels of different classes.

I only used it for 6 natural armor. I never even used any of the natural attacks it entitled me to. I don't think I used it in any particularly broken way.

And in both fights, it was largely irrelevent that I used it anyway. I killed Buster too fast (thanks to a crit), and Natural armor doesn't help my Touch AC, which is what awa targeted.

JonestheSpy
2010-10-07, 04:21 PM
I only used it for 6 natural armor. I never even used any of the natural attacks it entitled me to. I don't think I used it in any particularly broken way.



Only 6 natural armor? Barkskin, a spell of the same level as Alter Self, is designed to grant natural armor and do nothing else, and is +2 - +3 by 6th level.

Yeah, Alter Self is totally broken. And no, I don't think winning because of a crit actually proves much in terms of character capabilities, unless you're using a build that specifically focuses on critical hitting.

awa
2010-10-07, 04:23 PM
now if he were playing an elan or some kind of 0la outsider than its massively broken. but i would still say alter self is probably one of the best second level spells available because like the other shape changing spells it has tremendous versatility. you want natural armor you have, burrow speed, flight, theirs probably a form somewhere that will give it to you and it has very nice duration

Hague
2010-10-07, 04:25 PM
I like this wizard whom has seen every creature in existence to know precisely how to polymorph into said creature. It's pretty amusing.

awa
2010-10-07, 04:28 PM
well for alter self a few ranks in knowledge local (or is it nature i forget) will have it covered you cant turn into anything more than 5hit dice so combine that with a typical good wizards int i don't think it would be all that difficult at least for alter self.

Koury
2010-10-07, 04:35 PM
Yeah, I can pick up flight, burrow and the natural armor all with just K: Local.

JonestheSpy
2010-10-07, 04:42 PM
Which just reinforces what an overpowered, badly-written spell Alter Self is.

Koury
2010-10-07, 04:45 PM
Which just reinforces what an overpowered, badly-written spell Alter Self is.

OK. Either way, as I said, I'd have won without the NA. It wouldn't have been without damage, but I'd have won, I believe.

Greenish
2010-10-07, 04:54 PM
I'd have won, I believe.Yep. I made a grand total of three attacks that'd have hit AC 18, for the total of 24 damage (out of your 41 hp).

Koury
2010-10-07, 05:01 PM
You rolled pretty well when you chucked the bug goo at me. :smallannoyed:

:smallbiggrin:

JonestheSpy
2010-10-07, 05:06 PM
OK. Either way, as I said, I'd have won without the NA either way. It wouldn't have been without damage, but I'd have won, I believe.

Yes, you got lucky in the fight. But a quick running of he numbers seems to make it pretty clear to me that a +6 Natural AC that lasted for a full hour stacked the odds way in favor of the wizard.

Look, I'm sorry if you feel I'm denigrating your achievement or something, but as I said, in reading the fight thread the brokenness of Alter Self is the thing that stood out the most. If you think that's harsh or whatever, try using the same character against another duelist without using that one spell and see how it goes.

Koury
2010-10-07, 05:13 PM
If you think that's harsh or whatever, try using the same character against another duelist without using that one spell and see how it goes.

*looks at Greenish*

So, whatchu doin' for the next little while?

EDIT: Other are welcome to build someone also. :smallsmile: I have an awful lot of time, at the moment.

true_shinken
2010-10-07, 05:40 PM
*looks at Greenish*

So, whatchu doin' for the next little while?

EDIT: Other are welcome to build someone also. :smallsmile: I have an awful lot of time, at the moment.

I could try my hand at this, I suppose.

Koury
2010-10-07, 05:58 PM
Sure thing, throw something together and lets go. :smallsmile: Just let me know the parameters you used (core only, flaws, Max HP, etc, etc)

Eloel
2010-10-07, 06:01 PM
Sure thing, throw something together and lets go. :smallsmile: Just let me know the parameters you used (core only, flaws, Max HP, etc, etc)

I could also take on the Wizard (boredom extraordinaire) so you don't have to do multiple fights at once :)

Koury
2010-10-07, 06:03 PM
I could also take on the Wizard (boredom extraordinaire) so you don't have to do multiple fights at once :)

I have no particular claim to the wizard role, should others wish to join in. :smallsmile: I've just been using my one wizard build because I already had him built and never got to use him, and he was made to be a Fight-y Wizard, so it just worked well for me. :smallsmile:

Eloel
2010-10-07, 06:10 PM
I could try my hand at this, I suppose.

I'd love to fight you in this little duel in place of Koury - I have a build in mind. Tell me the level & other 'parameters' and sit tight :smallbiggrin:

true_shinken
2010-10-07, 06:33 PM
Sure thing, throw something together and lets go. :smallsmile: Just let me know the parameters you used (core only, flaws, Max HP, etc, etc)

I'm almost ready, I just need to do my equipment thing and then I'm game.


I'd love to fight you in this little duel in place of Koury - I have a build in mind. Tell me the level & other 'parameters' and sit tight :smallbiggrin:

I did a level 6 32-point buy build.
How much buff time are we allowing? I think only buffs that should last most of the day should be allowed (it was the rule of thumb at CoCo and it seems fair enough to me).

Eloel
2010-10-08, 12:08 AM
I did a level 6 32-point buy build.
How much buff time are we allowing? I think only buffs that should last most of the day should be allowed (it was the rule of thumb at CoCo and it seems fair enough to me).

I'm up for anything from 0 rounds to gajillion zillion rounds. So, your call.

Other relevant questions:

Core/non-core?
Max HP per HD/average HP per HD?
# of flaws and # of traits?
Starting distance? (5ft is fighter-biased, 100ft is wizard-biased. I'd say 50ft should be good enough.)

Koury
2010-10-08, 12:13 AM
I'm up for anything from 0 rounds to gajillion zillion rounds. So, your call.

I'd be careful with the gajillion round buff times. You first half-a-gajillion or so buff tend to wear off before you're done. :smallbiggrin:

Eloel
2010-10-08, 12:16 AM
I'd be careful with the gajillion round buff times. You first half-a-gajillion or so buff tend to wear off before you're done. :smallbiggrin:

I only have 1 vital buff I need in before I'm attacked, and having the (vastly) superior initiative handles that.

Greenish
2010-10-08, 07:20 AM
You rolled pretty well when you chucked the bug goo at me. :smallannoyed:Yeah, as I noted in the thread, that 15 was my best roll in the fight. Some people chose to start with nat 20 with a scythe. :smallannoyed:

*looks at Greenish*

So, whatchu doin' for the next little while?I'll see if I can come up with something.

true_shinken
2010-10-08, 08:11 AM
I'm up for anything from 0 rounds to gajillion zillion rounds. So, your call.

Other relevant questions:

Core/non-core?
Max HP per HD/average HP per HD?
# of flaws and # of traits?
Starting distance? (5ft is fighter-biased, 100ft is wizard-biased. I'd say 50ft should be good enough.)

50ft is fine. I'd say that only spells that last more than a few hours is a good standard for prebuffing.

Eloel
2010-10-08, 08:13 AM
50ft is fine. I'd say that only spells that last more than a few hours is a good standard for prebuffing.

I'll be ready around 10-15 minutes after you answer:

Core/non-core?
Max HP per HD/average HP per HD?
# of flaws and # of traits?

true_shinken
2010-10-08, 08:17 AM
I'll be ready around 10-15 minutes after you answer:

Core/non-core?
Max HP per HD/average HP per HD?
# of flaws and # of traits?

I'm not using flaws because I highly dislike them. If you really need flaws for your build, then we can use it.
I avoided traits as well, but I have nothing against it. I usually see people with only one trait, so I'd roll with that.

Eloel
2010-10-08, 08:18 AM
I'm not using flaws because I highly dislike them. If you really need flaws for your build, then we can use it.
I avoided traits as well, but I have nothing against it. I usually see people with only one trait, so I'd roll with that.

Neither sounds fine. I'm planning to use the fighter feat variant if you're ok with that.

true_shinken
2010-10-08, 08:23 AM
Neither sounds fine. I'm planning to use the fighter feat variant if you're ok with that.

It seems kind of against the nature of the challenge at all. Clamining you can 'out-fight the Fighter' when you are duplicating his only class feature is a tad weird. But if you need it for yout build, we could roll with that anyway.

Eloel
2010-10-08, 08:34 AM
It seems kind of against the nature of the challenge at all. Clamining you can 'out-fight the Fighter' when you are duplicating his only class feature is a tad weird. But if you need it for yout build, we could roll with that anyway.

Naah, it's good enough without it.

I'm ready when you are, just find a DM :smallsmile:

true_shinken
2010-10-08, 08:39 AM
Naah, it's good enough without it.

I'm ready when you are, just find a DM :smallsmile:

I think we might just do it ourselves. As long as there is no cheese involved, I doubt it will be a problem.

Also, how about HP? Average or max? Either is fine for me.

Eloel
2010-10-08, 08:40 AM
Sure thing, mind creating the game thread and sending in a link?

true_shinken
2010-10-08, 08:42 AM
Sure thing, mind creating the game thread and sending in a link?

It's here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9507003#post9507003).

Eloel
2010-10-08, 09:16 AM
Could we have a volunteer DM for the fight? Ran into a rules problem at initiative, who knows how many more we'll stumble into.

true_shinken
2010-10-08, 09:32 AM
Fighter wins!
...with cheese.

Koury
2010-10-08, 11:50 AM
I'm alive and around again, Greenish, if you are. And apparently have a fight thread to read. :smallsmile:

How are we going? Core, Max HP, etc, etc.

Greenish
2010-10-08, 11:54 AM
I'm alive and around again, Greenish, if you are. And apparently have a fight thread to read. :smallsmile:

How are we going? Core, Max HP, etc, etc.All official 3.5, max hp, normal WBL for level 6. You can pick a map and make the thread. :smallbiggrin:

Koury
2010-10-08, 12:04 PM
What map will count as 'good enough'?

Greenish
2010-10-08, 12:12 PM
What map will count as 'good enough'?The river one wasn't bad. Something where there is terrain, but it's not the main gimmick of the fight.

[Edit]: Lots of space would be nice. :smallwink:

Koury
2010-10-08, 12:35 PM
Got a fun one, posting in our old thread.

true_shinken
2010-10-08, 12:37 PM
The river one wasn't bad. Something where there is terrain, but it's not the main gimmick of the fight.

[Edit]: Lots of space would be nice. :smallwink:

Oh, I'd like to see this.

Greenish
2010-10-08, 01:00 PM
Oh, I'd like to see this.It is happening right before our very eyes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9508335#post9508335)!

Koury
2010-10-08, 03:25 PM
And Buster Jr makes quick work of Wizzard the Wizard! It was a good show, I suggest taking a peek. :smallsmile:

Greenish
2010-10-08, 04:18 PM
And Buster Jr makes quick work of Wizzard the Wizard! It was a good show, I suggest taking a peek. :smallsmile:Amusingly, Buster Jr. burned two feats for +1 to attack and damage.

I was expecting more mileage from Law Devotion, too.

[Edit]: And my beautiful 80' move speed didn't really get to shine. In fact, the whole mounted shtick did nothing.

Koury
2010-10-08, 04:36 PM
So, I'm thinking about actually build a Wizard to fight in these little duals who actually breaks from core. I think it's generally agreed upon that in core a Wizard can out fight a Fighter if hes willing to spend a few spel slots on it. But outside of core, what do I really gain?

I'm gonna look around and come back with something made to handle these fights a little better. I'm busy the next three or four hours, but I'll be back with a build by the end of the day, should anyone feel like building a Fighter to oppose me. :smallsmile:

I really do enjoy these battles. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Of course, I'll stay away from things like Celerity and Alter Self. You know, to keep Jonas happy. :smallwink:

Eloel
2010-10-08, 04:42 PM
Get a reach weapon, enlarge yourself, fly up, start laughing while you pound. Add Improved Unarmed Strike & Deflect Arrows to make sure you don't get shot down.

And whatever you do, make sure you stay in rules.

Greenish
2010-10-08, 05:55 PM
So, I'm thinking about actually build a Wizard to fight in these little duals who actually breaks from core. I think it's generally agreed upon that in core a Wizard can out fight a Fighter if hes willing to spend a few spel slots on it. But outside of core, what do I really gain?Wraithstrike is pretty nice for 2nd level spell, even with the low duration.

Bite of the Were[animal] series of self buffs was decent too, I seem to recall.

And, as Ozgun observed, reach is the king. Large+reach weapon means fighters will provoke AoO when closing, even with a reach weapon of their own. Stand Still ref save isn't beyond possible yet, but it has a good shot at flat-out stopping the fighter.

dextercorvia
2010-10-08, 08:02 PM
So, I'm thinking about actually build a Wizard to fight in these little duals who actually breaks from core. I think it's generally agreed upon that in core a Wizard can out fight a Fighter if hes willing to spend a few spel slots on it. But outside of core, what do I really gain?


You can gain a feat back. You spent two feats on Weapon Prof. and Weapon Focus Scythe, right? You can use the domain access wizard ACF from Comp. Champ to get the War domain ability exchange for your Wiz5 bonus feat, netting both of them at the cost of one feat.

awa
2010-10-09, 02:37 AM
switching to a spiked chain would a decent amount of power because of the excellent reach.

Eloel
2010-10-09, 02:58 AM
switching to a spiked chain would a decent amount of power because of the excellent reach.

Spiked chain's reach is the same as glaive's reach - with less damage. Unless you're planning to get real close, glaive > spiked chain.

WinWin
2010-10-09, 05:19 AM
So, I'm thinking about actually build a Wizard to fight in these little duals who actually breaks from core. I think it's generally agreed upon that in core a Wizard can out fight a Fighter if hes willing to spend a few spel slots on it. But outside of core, what do I really gain?

I'm gonna look around and come back with something made to handle these fights a little better. I'm busy the next three or four hours, but I'll be back with a build by the end of the day, should anyone feel like building a Fighter to oppose me. :smallsmile:

I really do enjoy these battles. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Of course, I'll stay away from things like Celerity and Alter Self. You know, to keep Jonas happy. :smallwink:

Mage-Slayer Slayer? Focused specialist Illusionist maybe...Bladeweave and Grasping Shadows have great action denial potential. Keep Transmutation. Perhaps evocation if you go the Bloodwind route.

I would also suggest using your familliar more. Those personal buffs can be shared... Otherwise trade it out for an ACF.

This monday morning quarterback will now move back to his armchair.

Koury
2010-10-09, 05:38 AM
Mage-Slayer Slayer? Focused specialist Illusionist maybe...Bladeweave and Grasping Shadows have great action denial potential. Keep Transmutation. Perhaps evocation if you go the Bloodwind route. I'll look into those. Gotta keep in mind I gotta keep they Fight-y Wizard theme up. If the spells fit, sweet. :smallsmile:

Weekend (well, today) turned out more busy then I planned, so yeah, I've done no work on this so far.


I would also suggest using your familliar more. Those personal buffs can be shared... Otherwise trade it out for an ACF. I'll definatly trade it out I think. I'm already catching flak for everything from certain spells to the map chosen to dual on. I doubt I could get by with having my familiar help me without listening to "Why doesn't the Fighter take Leadership if were bringing in other people." :smallbiggrin:

Thats hyperbole, of course, but yeah.

Also, let me say again, I have no more claim to Wizard here then anyone else. Someone else can feel free to make a Wizzy to play here also. :smallsmile:

WinWin
2010-10-09, 05:54 AM
You're doing well. Keeps this thread lighthearted and informative. I would get too competitive, but I might make a build if I can allot some time.

Bladeweave is a swift spell that causes your melee attacks to daze for the duration.

Grasping Shadows is actually Claws of Darkness. A spell that grants reach and dazing touch attacks. They can also be used to grapple.

Nerveskitter is a good immediate initiative buff. Just remember that an immediate action uses up your swift action on the next attack.

Fist of stone grant a greater enhancement bonus than Bulls Strength, but the duration is shorter. It also provides a natural attack.

They are from spell compendium. As for feats, a melee mage has a few options. Retributive Spell comes to mind. Arcane Strike would be good, but requires a higher attack bonus.

Greenish
2010-10-09, 03:58 PM
Belker Claws (SC). At level 6, they last for three rounds, dealing 2d12 each round. That's pretty good with one touch attack.

Dr.Epic
2010-10-09, 04:02 PM
Polymorph.

That plus the various other combat useful transmutation spells.

Sir Giacomo
2010-10-10, 04:02 AM
Hi Koury,

I'm ready to go with a 5th level fighter of mine (32 pt buy; normal wbl, no polymorphing spells but your alter self is OK; you can use the map you used so far). Would you like to go with your 5th level core wizard against him?
Then just provide the link to the playthread (or I could set up a new one).

- Giacomo

Koury
2010-10-10, 04:16 AM
No reason not to use the same thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170689). :smallsmile:

You all core, or can I expect surprises? :smalltongue:

Sir Giacomo
2010-10-10, 04:40 AM
No reason not to use the same thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170689). :smallsmile:

You all core, or can I expect surprises? :smalltongue:

Core as can be :smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Koury
2010-10-10, 04:45 AM
Core as can be :smallsmile:

- Giacomo


http://www.beijingolympicsfan.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/beijing-2008-olympics-oil-simpsons-mr-burns-excellent-demand-crude-oil-price.jpg

WinWin
2010-10-10, 05:28 AM
Looking forward to the results of the above match.

I have a basic core + completes wizard build ready if anyone is interested.

Complete mage. Complete arcane. Spell compendium. No prc's or multiclassng. No flaws. Level 5.

Happy to take on any fighter build. Preferably one around level 5 or 6.

I am inexperienced with the gaming/TOS system, but I am a quick study.